So NJPW for the past couple of years has been focusing on expanding it's reach and popularity to other regions of the world outside of Japan, specifically the US market. 


If NJPW wants to be a serious competitor against WWE  in the west, can they be one and not have a women's division, and not be chastised for excluding women?


I know the go-to argument is that Joshi companies do away with the need for women's division in New Japan, and having a division would be a step back, but would it really?


New Japan draws more for a random non-major show then most Joshi companies do for their biggest shows of the year. Io Shirai's farewell show drew about 1,500 whic is fantastic for a Joshi show, but really not that great for an NJPW show. Also if you look at the reactions Kairi and Io got for their signings at WWE events in Japan, despite being big name stars in the Joshi world, they only got a moderate amount of cheers at their signing announcement. Showing that Joshi caters to a very specific non-casual audience in Japan, and not the mor emainstream market NJPW goes for.  



It seems like Joshi wrestlers would really benefit from being able to work NJPW shows. 

I think if New Japan doesn't want to have a women's division, they aren't obligated to do so morally or professionally by any means. By all accounts they are incredibly traditional, and the women have been doing their own thing with their own promotions for years. I don't think there's any reason people should feel worked up about it, unless they just want something to be worked up about.

That's just my take.

So because Shimmer, Shine, Rise, and whatever else exist WWE on that same token should not have to have a women's division? The Dazz,

What happened at the end of the video?

I don't think it's really necessary for them to be honest. Same way I felt with ROH and a women's division.

Dazz hit the nail on the head. I'll elaborate a little more.

In North America, women's wrestling has been a part of the male-dominated show for decades, until recently as a sideshow attraction. I don't think there was an all women's promotion before SHIMMER, which was formed in the 2000s, but I could be wrong there. Thus men and women wrestling on the same show is routine, and natural to carry out. With gender equality becoming more of a thing, it was only a matter of time before women's wrestling became more featured and more respected on male-dominated programming. Hence it's no surprise that all the big companies have a solid women's division.

Contrast that to Japan where women-exclusive promotions have been around since the 50s. They have never been particularly successful, but they have been a constant presence for decades, probably on the level of a big indy promotion. The two genders have been separated for a very long time, to the point where it's extremely rare to see a female performer in a big company like AJPW or NJPW. Honestly the most high profile female in-ring match in a male promotion might be Kenny Omega wrestling the seven year old girl in DDT. There have been a handful of female appearances in NJPW in the last 10 years, but only as sex appeal valets. Admittedly NJPW is very backward in that respect.

Therefore integrating a women's division into one of the big Japanese promotions is going to met by a lot of resistance from a lot of different people. It might happen, but it's going to take a long time. I don't think it's problematic at all. NJPW is having it's most successful period in a long time, if not ever, and it's achieved through the incredible talents in the male roster.

For what it's worth, pro-wrestling experts consider the best matches of 80s and 90s Japanese female wrestling to be among the best matches ever, independent of gender and nation. I can't claim to be particularly knowledgeable on that front though.

Jul 24, 2018 22:05:11 GMT Emperor said:

Dazz hit the nail on the head. I'll elaborate a little more.

In North America, women's wrestling has been a part of the male-dominated show for decades, until recently as a sideshow attraction. I don't think there was an all women's promotion before SHIMMER, which was formed in the 2000s, but I could be wrong there. Thus men and women wrestling on the same show is routine, and natural to carry out. With gender equality becoming more of a thing, it was only a matter of time before women's wrestling became more featured and more respected on male-dominated programming. Hence it's no surprise that all the big companies have a solid women's division.

Contrast that to Japan where women-exclusive promotions have been around since the 50s. They have never been particularly successful, but they have been a constant presence for decades, probably on the level of a big indy promotion. The two genders have been separated for a very long time, to the point where it's extremely rare to see a female performer in a big company like AJPW or NJPW. Honestly the most high profile female in-ring match in a male promotion might be Kenny Omega wrestling the seven year old girl in DDT. There have been a handful of female appearances in NJPW in the last 10 years, but only as sex appeal valets. Admittedly NJPW is very backward in that respect.

Therefore integrating a women's division into one of the big Japanese promotions is going to met by a lot of resistance from a lot of different people. It might happen, but it's going to take a long time. I don't think it's problematic at all. NJPW is having it's most successful period in a long time, if not ever, and it's achieved through the incredible talents in the male roster.

For what it's worth, pro-wrestling experts consider the best matches of 80s and 90s Japanese female wrestling to be among the best matches ever, independent of gender and nation. I can't claim to be particularly knowledgeable on that front though.

So being backwards/ slightly sexist is not problematic?

Don't you think a  Joshi talent wrestling in NJPW  would raise their profile? Or how it would benefit a Joshi company to have a working relationship with New Japan?
This isn't the 80's/90's Joshi companies are not getting big crowds anymore. 

I don't know it seems like people are justifying separate but ( not remotely) equal thinking, because of  NjPW's high level of  "workrate"  

In North America, women's wrestling has been a part of the male-dominated show for decades, until recently as a sideshow attraction. I don't think there was an all women's promotion before SHIMMER, which was formed in the 2000s, but I could be wrong there.

Emperor

There was GLOW in the 80s. Even if it was never going to be taken seriously by audiences it was still there.

I don't see why not having women in the company should be seen problematic. Are we going to complain that there are men's and women's hockey leagues? Baseball leagues? Literally every other sport? It's the same thing. There are men's leagues and women's leagues and they exist in the same place, just like wrestling in Japan.

Just because the big 3 in North America hire men and women alike, doesn't mean everyone has to. If you want to be on a big stage, get good and work your way there like everyone else.

Jul 24, 2018 22:29:20 GMT dex said:

Jul 24, 2018 22:05:11 GMT Emperor said:

Dazz hit the nail on the head. I'll elaborate a little more.

In North America, women's wrestling has been a part of the male-dominated show for decades, until recently as a sideshow attraction. I don't think there was an all women's promotion before SHIMMER, which was formed in the 2000s, but I could be wrong there. Thus men and women wrestling on the same show is routine, and natural to carry out. With gender equality becoming more of a thing, it was only a matter of time before women's wrestling became more featured and more respected on male-dominated programming. Hence it's no surprise that all the big companies have a solid women's division.

Contrast that to Japan where women-exclusive promotions have been around since the 50s. They have never been particularly successful, but they have been a constant presence for decades, probably on the level of a big indy promotion. The two genders have been separated for a very long time, to the point where it's extremely rare to see a female performer in a big company like AJPW or NJPW. Honestly the most high profile female in-ring match in a male promotion might be Kenny Omega wrestling the seven year old girl in DDT. There have been a handful of female appearances in NJPW in the last 10 years, but only as sex appeal valets. Admittedly NJPW is very backward in that respect.

Therefore integrating a women's division into one of the big Japanese promotions is going to met by a lot of resistance from a lot of different people. It might happen, but it's going to take a long time. I don't think it's problematic at all. NJPW is having it's most successful period in a long time, if not ever, and it's achieved through the incredible talents in the male roster.

For what it's worth, pro-wrestling experts consider the best matches of 80s and 90s Japanese female wrestling to be among the best matches ever, independent of gender and nation. I can't claim to be particularly knowledgeable on that front though.

So being backwards/ slightly sexist is not problematic?

Don't you think a  Joshi talent wrestling in NJPW  would raise their profile? Or how it would benefit a Joshi company to have a working relationship with New Japan?
This isn't the 80's/90's Joshi companies are not getting big crowds anymore. 

I don't know it seems like people are justifying separate but ( not remotely) equal thinking, because of  NjPW's high level of  "workrate"  

It isn't sexist to not hire women when you are a men's wrestling company.

That's like calling the MLB sexist because there aren't any women players.

Joshi would benefit greatly, but what's in it for NJPW? Is it really what is stopping them from a successful global expansion?

That said I'm all for them wrestling juniors...

They don't need no stinkin women

Honestly they are fine without them.

Jul 24, 2018 22:29:20 GMT dex said:

Don't you think a  Joshi talent wrestling in NJPW  would raise their profile? Or how it would benefit a Joshi company to have a working relationship with New Japan?

It would absolutely benefit Joshi talent. The problem is that it's not realistic at all. Would a Joshi company want to be absorbed by a company like NJPW when they have not shown the slightest sign of interest in female wrestling or females in general? NJPW doesn't have any room for women either. They have a huge roster, to the point where they need a bunch of six/eight/ten man tags to get everyone on the card card. A mixed-gender wrestling company in Japan would be a huge undertaking and would probably have to be done from scratch. It's not feasible to merge two uni-gender companies.

I mean, WWE got rid of their women's division for years, and by the time they brought back the women's title it was barely actually defended, and their women were just used for bikini contests, and when they did defend the title it was an evening gown match or something along those lines, and it was like that until the end of 2000. Then they started actually having real title matches, but it's not like WWE actually pretended to give a crap until there was an outcry a few years ago.



New Japan doesn't need to have a women's division if they don't want to. And it seems they don't. I don't think it's sexist. I think they just realize it doesn't actually add anything for them, and audience they want in the US isn't going to care if they have a women's division or not as long as they get to see the guys they want to see. ROH has a women's division, and honestly, they might as well not have one as it's nothing but meaningless tag matches. Having a women's division shouldn't be a requirement, especially if these women aren't going to be given anything. They have their own promotions where they get to be the stars of the show and people should take the time to support those promotions and spread the world about them and try to make them bigger. 


I think instead of the world being upset that New Japan doesn't have a women's division, they should just support Joshi promotions if they care that much.

It would help the women coming from Japan to look more impressive to the slightly less then average fans who watching WWE and browses a few others. Because saying someone came from Japan and didn't wrestle from NJPW is like saying you are wrestler in the US but aren't working for WWE. Which is usually just meet with an uncaring Oh.

And if you aren't going for the family crowd then it probably won't hurt them that much. A lot of women who I know that watch wrestling usually bring up the men.

ROH being brought up really encapsulates my thoughts on the issue - I'd rather they don't do anything at all than do a completely halfass job.

I can see the argument, and if they wanted to properly commit to it then that would be cool but don't think that there is an obligation to do so.

Jul 25, 2018 0:39:06 GMT @admin said:

ROH being brought up really encapsulates my thoughts on the issue - I'd rather they don't do anything at all than do a completely halfass job.

I can see the argument, and if they wanted to properly commit to it then that would be cool but don't think that there is an obligation to do so.

I don't watch it full time like I use too but I think they needed it. Since they actually had women's matches but there was no prize for them making them seem like worthless matches.

Jul 25, 2018 0:41:38 GMT X-zero said:

Jul 25, 2018 0:39:06 GMT @admin said:

ROH being brought up really encapsulates my thoughts on the issue - I'd rather they don't do anything at all than do a completely halfass job.

I can see the argument, and if they wanted to properly commit to it then that would be cool but don't think that there is an obligation to do so.

I don't watch it full time like I use too but I think they needed it. Since they actually had women's matches but there was no prize for them making them seem like worthless matches.

Introducing a title makes things slightly better but given the way things have been handled since there's clearly no great motivation to create a great division. They will remain irrelevant until they start using more talented wrestlers, and with shady guys like Delirious and Jay Lethal running things that apparently won't change.

Delirious is a pretty trash booker, but we still don't know much about the Lethal/Hendrix situation so I think calling him (Lethal) shady is kind of unfair.


ROH justs need to put the title on Tenille and let her work with the Stardom girls they bring over.

I also think The Dazz, has hit the nail on the head.

And, the massive irony in the WWE's Women's revolution ( which I fully support ) is the fact for the better half of the last 30 years, WWE itself has presented it's women as eye-candy, as ' Divas ' rather than superstars. And it's only up until the last few years, they, the WWE have perpetuated this idea of it's female performers as being little more than sexual objects.

This evolution, or revolution is largely a response to their own inability or refusal to do more with female talent, when other's, funnily enough including TNA Wrestling, have done so in pushing women's wrestling as a respectful part of the show.

What is problematic, is the WWE has awaited until it has been socially & culturally appropriate or popular to promote women on equal billing as the men, when they have always had the ability to.