Unlike last week where we agreed on the top ten, UT and I actually had fairly different lists this week which make for a slightly confusing combined force but here we go:

1. Aaron Donald
2. Khalil Mack
3. JJ Watt
4. Luke Kuechly
5. Harrison Smith
6. Jalen Ramsey
7. Von Miller
8. Cameron Jordan
9. Demarcus Lawrence
10. Bobby Wagner

We had the same top three in order with Donald, Mack and Watt and then Kuechly was our other unanimous top 5 pick.

UT had Ramsey high on his list, whilst he missed my top 10 entirely - and I had Harrison Smith significantly higher than he (Packers bias coming out there!) 

Again we came back together on the pass rushing trio of Miller, Jordan and Lawrence, while I snuck Bobby Wagner on the bottom of the list for my solo inclusion.

Honorable mentions go to Chandler Jones who UT had surprisingly high on his list at #6, but personally wouldn't have made my top 15 and Geno Atkins who I had #9 but went unranked by UT. 

I would have Von Miller in the top 5 and push down Ramsey and Smith one spot a piece. All things being equal I'll take a top pass rusher over a top DB every time.

Rest of the list is solid though, and the top 4 is pretty much impossible to argue with, pretty much in that order as well.

I think Miller has suffered a touch from the Broncos defence taking several steps backwards over the past season or two - although it's not really any fault of his own. He was always the Mariota to Khalil Mack's Winston but now that Mack's gone from a crappy defence to a top defence it's really boosted his stock.

I don't think I had Packer bias at all with Smith , I had him at #7 right? I put him behind the likes of Ramsey because I think Ramsey at the end of the day is more valuable and more versatile than Smith right now. He's a total package at corner and despite him being a pain in the ass off the field with his personality - I would take him on my team in a heartbeat and I think would be the better player to build around.

As for Jones , I might of bumped him up a little high but the guy deserves some recognition. If he weren't play in Arizona he would have been right in the conversation behind Mack and Watt for DPOY before a dud this last week. He has been a force in Zona games and I bet he shows that again tonight. I think he's at least every bit as good or better than Lawrence but Lawrence plays in Dallas.

Aaron Donald is an absolute force of nature.

I still can't believe he wasn't a Top-10 Pick.

That is all.

Oct 18, 2018 14:36:12 GMT UT said:

I don't think I had Packer bias at all with Smith , I had him at #7 right?

Just my attempt at adding a bit of banter trying to avoid the 0'fer replies like last time I made the thread. :lol:

Oct 18, 2018 14:36:12 GMT UT said:

As for Jones , I might of bumped him up a little high but the guy deserves some recognition. If he weren't play in Arizona he would have been right in the conversation behind Mack and Watt for DPOY before a dud this last week. He has been a force in Zona games and I bet he shows that again tonight. I think he's at least every bit as good or better than Lawrence but Lawrence plays in Dallas.

Good point. I'm looking forward to seeing Arizona's defence tonight because they are low-key quite good. I have a sneaky feeling that they might drop the guillotine on Vance Joseph with a upset victory.

I think Zona wins tonight too. I’m not convinced Bance Joseph is a good coach and DJ is due a game - and well the Broncos might have the worst run defense in the NFL.

JJ Watt not #1 sure I'm not even mad bro

Oct 18, 2018 23:10:54 GMT UT said:

I think Zona wins tonight too. I’m not convinced Bance Joseph is a good coach and DJ is due a game - and well the Broncos might have the worst run defense in the NFL.

Me and @admin are good.

Oct 19, 2018 3:09:03 GMT UT said:

Oct 18, 2018 23:10:54 GMT UT said:

I think Zona wins tonight too. I’m not convinced Bance Joseph is a good coach and DJ is due a game - and well the Broncos might have the worst run defense in the NFL.

Me and @admin are good.

In my defence I hedged and chose Denver in the pick'em. 😅

JJ is the best IMO. Most sacks, most forced fumbles, and well ahead in tackles for loss and QB hits. Only argument against him is Texans easier schedule but you play what's in front of you.

Oct 19, 2018 12:43:53 GMT Todd said:

JJ is the best IMO. Most sacks, most forced fumbles, and well ahead in tackles for loss and QB hits. Only argument against him is Texans easier schedule but you play what's in front of you.

Amen, not only is JJ out in front of Donald/Mack right now but even using the career legacy criteria that was used in the receiver countdown those two are well behind JJ Watt. I think it's a combo of people getting tired of hearing about him while at the same time never really seeing enough of him to get why he is so great. Again, if JJ played for the Giants or Eagles or any other team other than Houston he's all you would ever hear about you would see him in every NFL spot or commercial and he's all they would talk about on pregame shows, everybody would be down on their knees stroking his nuts like he's second coming of LT.

Oct 19, 2018 12:43:53 GMT Todd said:

Only argument against him is Texans easier schedule but you play what's in front of you.

Mack just got beat by Brock Oswieler bro, he had 1 tackle. Clearly this whole countdown thing is based on popularity hype, Mack ain't SHIT compared to JJ Watt. This list is a fucking joke

Oct 19, 2018 13:24:23 GMT shinobimusashi said:

Oct 19, 2018 12:43:53 GMT Todd said:

Only argument against him is Texans easier schedule but you play what's in front of you.

Mack just got beat by Brock Oswieler bro, he had 1 tackle. Clearly this whole countdown thing is based on popularity hype, Mack ain't SHIT compared to JJ Watt. This list is a fucking joke

Watt got beat by Blaine Gabbert , bro - also Blaine Gabbert had too backup tackles in that game. You really aren't going to use that as a barometer. You always want to go back to the hype/popularity train as a defense because you live in a Texans bubble but I've been watching and loving JJ Watt since before you even knew who he was - there is more hyped defensive player for me than Watt but you also have to be objective. I hate the Bears and fuck Khalil Mack but he deserves it up to this point - that entire defense has taken a step because of his arrival. 

Oct 19, 2018 12:43:53 GMT Todd said:

JJ is the best IMO. Most sacks, most forced fumbles, and well ahead in tackles for loss and QB hits. Only argument against him is Texans easier schedule but you play what's in front of you.

Of course he's going to have more numbers than Donald , that's just the nature of the positions they play. Donald is the most dominant interior pass rusher I've seen in decades and one of the few guys you can watch affect damn near every single play - the Rams and Texans defense are so close in overall performance it's not worth making that comparison but as much as I love JJ Watt - if I were building a defense today I would start with Donald. 

As for Mack , the argument is simple. His arrival made that entire defense better , they are top ten in every statistical category right now and I promise most people couldn't name another player on that fucking defense. That is Mack , who also at this stage in their careers is a little more versatile as well and can be a problem while dropping into coverage. 

At the end of the day , the top three is incredibly close and I don't have a problem with any of them. 

Oct 19, 2018 14:00:28 GMT UT said:

Oct 19, 2018 12:43:53 GMT Todd said:

JJ is the best IMO. Most sacks, most forced fumbles, and well ahead in tackles for loss and QB hits. Only argument against him is Texans easier schedule but you play what's in front of you.

Of course he's going to have more numbers than Donald , that's just the nature of the positions they play. Donald is the most dominant interior pass rusher I've seen in decades and one of the few guys you can watch affect damn near every single play - the Rams and Texans defense are so close in overall performance it's not worth making that comparison but as much as I love JJ Watt - if I were building a defense today I would start with Donald. 

As for Mack , the argument is simple. His arrival made that entire defense better , they are top ten in every statistical category right now and I promise most people couldn't name another player on that fucking defense. That is Mack , who also at this stage in their careers is a little more versatile as well and can be a problem while dropping into coverage. 

At the end of the day , the top three is incredibly close and I don't have a problem with any of them. 

More versatile maybe, but objectively better, I have to disagree. I'm in full agreement with your view on Donald but you can just as easily say JJ is easily the most dominant exterior pass rusher of the last couple decades. The fact that he sits atop QB hits, and is top 10 in tackles for a loss despite only racking up 94 games is testament to a guy who's as dominant as they come in the modern era. And in a tiebreak between the interior and the exterior guy, I know who I'll choose.

Nice to get some conversation going in one of these things, this is honestly the first thing I've disagreed with you guys on.

Between Donald and Watt I have to go with Donald. A dominant interior pass-rusher is more disruptive than one on the edge. Most elite QB's deal with edge pressure rather well, but pressure that collapses the pocket is a pain in the ass.

As said though the top 3 is pretty interchangeable . Those guys are head and shoulders above every other NFL defender.

Oct 19, 2018 14:28:59 GMT Todd said:

Oct 19, 2018 14:00:28 GMT UT said:

Of course he's going to have more numbers than Donald , that's just the nature of the positions they play. Donald is the most dominant interior pass rusher I've seen in decades and one of the few guys you can watch affect damn near every single play - the Rams and Texans defense are so close in overall performance it's not worth making that comparison but as much as I love JJ Watt - if I were building a defense today I would start with Donald. 

As for Mack , the argument is simple. His arrival made that entire defense better , they are top ten in every statistical category right now and I promise most people couldn't name another player on that fucking defense. That is Mack , who also at this stage in their careers is a little more versatile as well and can be a problem while dropping into coverage. 

At the end of the day , the top three is incredibly close and I don't have a problem with any of them. 

More versatile maybe, but objectively better, I have to disagree. I'm in full agreement with your view on Donald but you can just as easily say JJ is easily the most dominant exterior pass rusher of the last couple decades. The fact that he sits atop QB hits, and is top 10 in tackles for a loss despite only racking up 94 games is testament to a guy who's as dominant as they come in the modern era. And in a tiebreak between the interior and the exterior guy, I know who I'll choose.

Nice to get some conversation going in one of these things, this is honestly the first thing I've disagreed with you guys on.

As LT said and I said , it's really sort of interchangeable and you end up splitting hairs. Watt is a monster and overall probably the best defensive player in my lifetime - especially at his peaks. If I'm going to split hairs though , at this point in 2018 - there is no one like Aaron Donald and sometimes it's hard to follow interior line play but when the Rams play he jumps off the screen - you don't even have to follow him. That speaks to the type of defender he is. 

If we were arguing lifetime than there really is no comparison , Watt was/is an animal. There's nothing wrong with getting some company at the top though. 

Mack's versatility matters and his biggest argument is what he was able to do to the Bears defense as a unit. He leveled them up and made them into one of the best in the league. His numbers may end up dipping as teams pay more attention to him but I promise you that presence will only allow other guys to step up and make more plays. 

As for a tiebreak between interior and exterior - you have to choose interior. Any quarterback will tell you the worst thing when going against a defense is interior pressure.

Cam Jordan is a beast so I’m glad he got some recognition here. I feel like he often gets overlooked when talking about the games best defensive players because he is usually playing on a terrible defense but I have seen him in the discussion a lot more lately. He’s been a one man wrecking crew for the Saints at times and I hope with the emergence of Davenport, Jordan will have more opportunities at the QB. He is one of the best rushers in the league and the best I’ve seen at swatting balls down at the line of scrimmage. I’d put him in the top 5 but that is my bias showing.

As far as the top 3 goes, I got: Aaron Donald over Khalil Mack and JJ Watt.

Oct 19, 2018 16:31:31 GMT @theshow said:

Cam Jordan is a beast so I’m glad he got some recognition here. I feel like he often gets overlooked when talking about the games best defensive players because he is usually playing on a terrible defense but I have seen him in the discussion a lot more lately. He’s been a one man wrecking crew for the Saints at times and I hope with the emergence of Davenport, Jordan will have more opportunities at the QB. He is one of the best rushers in the league and the best I’ve seen at swatting balls down at the line of scrimmage. I’d put him in the top 5 but that is my bias showing.

As far as the top 3 goes, I got: Aaron Donald over Khalil Mack and JJ Watt.

Watt is the best at batting down passes at LOS , I remember teams that used to oppose the Texans would use tennis rackets to prepare for his use of the hands. Cam Jordan is great though and someone I felt deserved to be on this list.

I’m happy the Kuechly hate stopped on this board too. There was a pocket where everyone just shit on him and considered him overrated. Guy is a great player and the the Panthers defense drops dramatically if he isn’t on the field - there’s no bigger testament than that to a play.

No question that interior pressure is better, but interior pressures are also fewer. Splitting hairs though as you say.

Love the rest of the list although no Fletcher Cox is surprising. Leads in QB hits this season and from DT no less. Great player.

Watt is a monster and overall probably the best defensive player in my lifetime

LT might be a bit before your time, but you DID watch Reggie White play for Green Bay. That's a pretty bold claim.

Reggie White is the  only D-lineman I ever saw that put Larry Allen on his ass.   That speaks volumes.

Oct 19, 2018 17:42:41 GMT thereallt said:

Watt is a monster and overall probably the best defensive player in my lifetime

LT might be a bit before your time, but you DID watch Reggie White play for Green Bay. That's a pretty bold claim.

Reggie White is the  only D-lineman I ever saw that put Larry Allen on his ass.   That speaks volumes.

White is there too. It’s close and that’s why I said probably. Still though that stretch by Watt before injuries started coming up was remarkable.

Between this thread, the WR thread and be hype around Andre, @nobi represents the best/worst in fandom: a super smart guy that can’t park his fandom for any conversation. And that’s why we love him.

Oct 19, 2018 16:50:04 GMT UT said:

I’m happy the Kuechly hate stopped on this board too. There was a pocket where everyone just shit on him and considered him overrated. Guy is a great player and the the Panthers defense drops dramatically if he isn’t on the field - there’s no bigger testament than that to a play.

I have never understood the Kuechly hate.   He's everything  you want in an interior linebacker.   IMO he's been the best inside linebacker of at least the past 5 years.

The knock against Kuechly when he first came into the league was his pass coverage - he was always great against the run and racked up tons of tackles - but it wasn't until his third season that he turned into an elite cover linebacker.