First off, let me confess, I am a bit obsessed with following this whole NXIVM thing.  Generally speaking, I am dismissive of the Proud Boys despite the media darlings they appear to be.  They seem to be the so-called hate group people love to hate.  


The Proud Boys have members in the hundreds across the US.  As far as I know, they are only in the US.   Headed up by Gavin McGinnes.  Kicked off of facebook to some extent.  I am sure they found some way back on if they cared.  In my perception, they are a largely overhyped polo wearing bunch of angry kids who are probably outnumbered, outpowered, outmatched and less of a threat than your average prison gang.    In all seriousness, I think an Aryan Brotherhood in one CA prison is more of a threat to all of America and humanity than The Proud Boys.   They just get all the coverage.  Seemingly, they don't have any major funding, backers, support etc.  Just a windbag on the internet in Gavin.  Their general message resonates with youth because after reading Gavin's book I feel confident that he got enamored in mod culture and just never grew out of it.  The transition from mod to skinhead isn't a giant leap and it's the leap the media is giving them.  The danger associated with them is one associated with hate groups as if they could be the first wave of the Fourth Reich.  Violence has occurred around them.  But for a group of second amendment lovers, they seem to tolerate things being thrown at them quite well.

NXIVM, on the other hand, is an international organization with actual buildings, offices, members and revenue streams from their mid-level marketing self-help and business help groups and billion dollar heiresses tangled with C-level celebrities headed by a Guinness book genius Keith Raneire.  Sex cult or group of consenting adults participating in freaky deaky stuff is hard to determine unless you talk to the people involved.  Once again, we generally only know the results of the actions and what the media tells us.  But the general perceived threat of pyramid scams are well known, as well as sex cults.  No doubt that NXIVM could have become a really kinky version of Scientology. 


Arguably I feel the manipulation techniques used by NXIVM is more dangerous than the Proud Boys.  NXIVM seems to have better organization.  More solidly legitimized and much more strongly financially backed.  I consider NXIVM to be more of a threat and danger than the Proud Boys.  I could even feel compelled to argue NXIVM has done more cumulative damage than the Proud Boys.  I know it's not apples to apples.  I know it's out there in left field, or in the case of the Proud Boys, right field.  But that is where my mind wanders and that sometimes dictates what I post.  Who do you consider a greater threat?  I think most will say the Proud Boys.  But heck, I hope you had an entertaining read and take it as an odd thought experiment. 

Are they even playing the same game to be in contention with each other?

One seems to be a sex-trafficking ring, masquerading as a marketing company, the other is what happens when an internet argument escalates beyond the realms of common sense and decency.   

NATH45 ,no they aren't playing the same game. I am only drawing them together as overall threats to people.


I see the Proud Boys the same as I do Westboro Baptist Church.  Just a little tick.  Only 70 people, but boy people love clamoring on everything they do and say.

Google must have read me typing this. So, I got suggested this news story. These guys sound like a bigger threat than the Proud Boys.

www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article221942515.html

Nov 20, 2018 15:31:56 GMT theend said:

NATH45 ,no they aren't playing the same game. I am only drawing them together as overall threats to people.


I see the Proud Boys the same as I do Westboro Baptist Church.  Just a little tick.  Only 70 people, but boy people love clamoring on everything they do and say.

I would think considering the impact that NXIVM have already had, they were the bigger threat. I don't see the Proud Boys being any more than excuse for a bunch of douche bags to act like a bunch of dicks. They are a product of this outage culture and like everything about these you-tubers, the moment you stop paying attention, they don't matter.

But I can understand these types of responses from people like McInnes. As a white male 18-40 years myself, you're constantly reminded of " how good you have it " - a great example, a few years ago an old friend on facebook posted a cartoon, showing the modern working man, working a psychical, labor intensive job 50, 60 hrs per week, then having to come home, and mow the lawns, walk the dog, be the handy man, the role model, then perform domestically, sexually, emotionally as a father and husband. It showed a tired, stressed, worn individual with a bad back and bad knees. The message was to appreciate those men in your life who fit that bill. And fuck me, did it get some heat - " nothing compares to child birth " , " check your privilege " etc,

Toxic masculinity isn't killing men, it's the burden and stress of modern life, having to live up to all these demands and expectations and then being constantly reminded how awful you are by the left.

Toxic Masculinity is 100% an issue today, but that doesn’t mean there’s not also an under appreciation or acknowledgement to the hard work men do.

I am tired of people seeking affirmation for doing what they’re supposed to do. Be it the cartoon mentioned above or douchebags using “#adulting.”

I must be living under a rock because I have zero idea who either of these groups are but it sounds like I'm not missing much.

Nov 21, 2018 12:33:02 GMT KJ said:

Toxic Masculinity is 100% an issue today, but that doesn’t mean there’s not also an under appreciation or acknowledgement to the hard work men do.

I am tired of people seeking affirmation for doing what they’re supposed to do. Be it the cartoon mentioned above or douchebags using “#adulting.”

Can you please explain what toxic masculinity is? I'm sure I could find youtube videos, but it's all so confusing. Can you parse it down to some easy to understand words.

Nov 21, 2018 12:33:02 GMT KJ said:

Toxic Masculinity is 100% an issue today, but that doesn’t mean there’s not also an under appreciation or acknowledgement to the hard work men do.

I am tired of people seeking affirmation for doing what they’re supposed to do. Be it the cartoon mentioned above or douchebags using “#adulting.”

Toxic behaviour is a problem, attaching masculinity to the end of it is unhelpful. 
People of both genders can behave in a poor fashion that is broadly stereotypical of their gender. 

I have little time for being made to feel guilty for toxic masculinity and the patriarchy which don't exist as anything more than a capture all heading for bitter people to brand anything that they don't like or are not successful at. 

These fringe groups are great for talking heads because they're basically walking taking straw men for those looking to be over the top in opposing an opinion. It's like when I say that there has to be a two state solution in Israel and supporting the toxic genocide of Zionism is bad... I woukd be labelled as anti-semetic, which would be a gross misjudgement of me.. I'm clearly anti everyone. Same deal for anyone who might oppose unchecked immigration or third wave feminism... Oh... You're one of them

Nov 21, 2018 12:33:02 GMT KJ said:

Toxic Masculinity is 100% an issue today, but that doesn’t mean there’s not also an under appreciation or acknowledgement to the hard work men do.

I am tired of people seeking affirmation for doing what they’re supposed to do. Be it the cartoon mentioned above or douchebags using “#adulting.”

Of course it's an issue, and I do retract my statement.

But it's not about seeking affirmation for doing what you're 'supposed' to do, it should be acknowledging what good is actually being done. 

There's a lot of men out there who cripple their bodies, work tirelessly to provide for their families, and generally keep an even keel and remain good partners, fathers, etc, and do it, every single day, managing financial, work and home related stresses, often with little acknowledgement or real appreciation.. because they're doing what they're 'supposed' to do.

Nov 21, 2018 17:23:06 GMT iron maiden said:

I must be living under a rock because I have zero idea who either of these groups are but it sounds like I'm not missing much.

I think this is the post in this thread with which I most agree right now. Sometimes I feel like some of these threads need to come with a keywords glossary so that I can understand and follow along more readily.

Nov 22, 2018 3:46:29 GMT nazzer said:

Nov 21, 2018 12:33:02 GMT KJ said:

Toxic Masculinity is 100% an issue today, but that doesn’t mean there’s not also an under appreciation or acknowledgement to the hard work men do.

I am tired of people seeking affirmation for doing what they’re supposed to do. Be it the cartoon mentioned above or douchebags using “#adulting.”

Can you please explain what toxic masculinity is? I'm sure I could find youtube videos, but it's all so confusing. Can you parse it down to some easy to understand words.

I think it's strict male gender roles that prevent them from showing off what are perceived as "feminine" emotions. Men are supposed to be stoic and not cry. Those that do are perceived as weak. It's a problem because bottling things up is not good, but at the same time it seems when men do express themselves it is used against them or their partners lose attraction, so the cycle continues.

Nov 22, 2018 16:01:56 GMT @ness said:

Nov 22, 2018 3:46:29 GMT nazzer said:

Can you please explain what toxic masculinity is? I'm sure I could find youtube videos, but it's all so confusing. Can you parse it down to some easy to understand words.

I think it's strict male gender roles that prevent them from showing off what are perceived as "feminine" emotions. Men are supposed to be stoic and not cry. Those that do are perceived as weak. It's a problem because bottling things up is not good, but at the same time it seems when men do express themselves it is used against them or their partners lose attraction, so the cycle continues.

Or, they turn to the drink, or anti-social behavior, and even suicide. 

There's evidence of boys and men being left behind in education and then careers progression, notably due to reduction or decline in trade, manufacturing, ag-horticulture, lack of options in rural and regional areas. Often there's very little access to support, or as you've mentioned above, men bottle things up, or often have limited social networks as supports.