*****
Kenny Omega (c) vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - Wrestle Kingdom 13

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being my MOTY. One of the best matches I've ever seen. Nothing else from Wrestle Kingdom was anything special.

MY GOD!!!

DUNNE VS. COFFEY!!!

Only 12 days into the year, and it may still be standing atop at the end of the year.

LAX Lucha Brothers from Homecoming

Jan 7, 2019 18:27:45 GMT Emperor said:

*****
Kenny Omega (c) vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - IWGP Heavyweight Championship - Wrestle Kingdom 13

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being my MOTY. One of the best matches I've ever seen. Nothing else from Wrestle Kingdom was anything special.

I think one of the best matches ever seen is a bit extreme. It was a solid bout, but I didn't see anything phenomenal or anywhere near the best. There are countless better matches. It's not even the best Omega match by a long shot.

I liked Jericho/Naito more even.

Jan 12, 2019 21:33:23 GMT CM Punk'd said:

MY GOD!!!

DUNNE VS. COFFEY!!!

Only 12 days into the year, and it may still be standing atop at the end of the year.

I thought it was too long and too concerned with appearing epic. The Tag Title match was the match of the night for me.

Jan 15, 2019 6:12:35 GMT Lionheart said:

I think one of the best matches ever seen is a bit extreme. It was a solid bout, but I didn't see anything phenomenal or anywhere near the best. There are countless better matches. It's not even the best Omega match by a long shot.

You liked it so much that you put Kenny Omega in your signature and started spamming "Kenny Omega is a wrestling god" despite the fact you have more or less not watched any wrestling for many years. Clearly that is the result of you watching the Omega/Tanahashi match. There is no other explanation. Unconsciously, you know how brilliant this match is.

Jan 15, 2019 7:13:56 GMT PB said:

I thought it was too long and too concerned with appearing epic. The Tag Title match was the match of the night for me.

This is really concise way of summarising the problem I have with some modern wrestling matches that are considered great. Pete Dunne's matches tend to have this trait. His match against Tyler Bate from last year that everyone declared MOTY is one of the best examples. Forced epicness. A lot of modern WWE matches have this issue, as do some NJPW matches. It feels like they are following a template rather than creating a story according to their characters and the nature of the feud.

The match joggled my memory about how good Kenny Omega is in previous matches. His greatest match of all time that proves he is a wrestling God will forever be this one:



tl;dr I liked him before he was cool.

If you like that over every other Omega match, I don't think it is my judgment that is in question.

I've always preferred the ultra silly Omega to Best Bout Machine. Wrestling little girls/dolls, true storytelling in PWG with American Dragon, etc. But even I can't get behind that absurd statement from a gimmick poster.

1. Chris Jericho vs Tetsuya Naito - Wrestle Kingdom 13
2. Kenny Omega vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - Wrestle Kingdom 13
3. Andrade vs Rey Mysterio - Smackdown 1/15
4. Finn Balor vs Jordan Devlin - NXT Takeover: Blackpool
5. Pete Dunne vs Joe Coffey - NXT Takeover: Blackpool
6. Kota Ibushi vs Will Ospreay - Wrestle Kingdom 13

I think that’s all from this year worthy of a list. 4-6 will quickly drop off I think as the year progresses.

Also I’m totally doing a top 20-25 list this year because 2018 just became a shit show trying to keep it a top 10 list. I gave up by September and I just went back and checked the other thread. No way in hell can I make it a worthy list given how many more good matches there were last year. Fuck.

Hoping 2019 is as good or better than 2018!

Aha! See, the Jericho match was better! RT knows best!

If you haven't seen Rey vs Andrade from Smackdown, stop what you're doing and go watch it.

Let's try this again, maybe this year, I'll keep up with this, and actually update the list.



IWGP Heavyweight Championship
Singles Match
Kenny Omega(c) vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi
Wrestle Kingdom 13 - January 4th

IWGP Intercontinental Championship
No DQ Match
Chris Jericho(c) vs. Tetsuya Naito
Wrestle Kingdom 13 - January 4th

Impact Tag Team Championships
Tag Team Match
Latin American Xchange(c) vs. The Lucha Bros.
Impact Wrestling: Homecoming - January 6th

Singles Match
Andrade vs. Rey Mysterio
Smackdown Live - January 15th

NXT North American Championship
Singles Match
Ricochet(c) vs. Johnny Gargano
NXT TakeOver: Phoenix - January 26th

NXT Heavyweight Championship
Singles Match
Tommaso Ciampa(c) vs. Aleister Black
NXT TakeOver: Phoenix - January 26th

Smackdown Women's Championship
Singles Match
Asuka(c) vs. Becky Lynch
Royal Rumble - January 27th

Six Man Tag Team Match
Aleister Black/Ricochet/Velveteen Dream vs. Adam Cole/Johnny Gargano/Tommaso Ciampa
Halftime Heat - February 3rd

NXT Heavyweight Championship
Two out of Three Falls Match
Johnny Gargano vs. Adam Cole
NXT TakeOver: New York - April 5th

IWGP Junior Heavyweight Championship
Triple Threat Match
Taiji Ishimori(c) vs. Bandido vs. Dragon Lee
G1 Supercard - April 6th

British Heavyweight Championship
Singles Match
Zack Sabre Jr.(c) vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi
G1 Supercard - April 6th

Singles Match
Cody Rhodes vs. Dustin Rhodes
AEW Double or Nothing - May 25th

AAA Tag Team Championships
Tag Team Match
Young Bucks(c) vs. Lucha Bros.
AEW Double or Nothing - May 25th

NXT Heavyweight Championship
Singles Match
Johnny Gargano(c) vs. Adam Cole
NXT TakeOver: XXV - June 1st

Okay, I now finally got around to watching Ibushi vs Ospreay. Holy shit. That was an easy candidate for match of the year. It was more fast-paced, exciting, back-and-forth, charismatic, brutal, well-choreographed, and flashier than Omega vs Tanahashi. I always knew Ibushi was one of the best, but he has only upped his game even more since I last saw him wrestle years ago.

I am honestly completely in shock that RT is the only one that has even mentioned it so far...and at #6. Not only that, but Emperor even specifically pointed out that none of the other matches were anything special! Does no one appreciate athletic talent anymore? Harumph.

It's either my number one or two after the Jericho match now. Tough call.

Watching Ospreay & Ibushi live, I appreciated how physical it got. I was concerned it was going to be nothing more than a gymnastics competition, but after the early showmanship, they really started going after one another which made the match more engaging. Ospreay is coming along well, and I like that he's using a new finisher. The Ozcutter used to pale in comparison to all his other offence, especially since it was eerily similar to the Lethal Injection.

I could understand having a problem with the finish of the match in regards to Ibushi's safety. I'm the complete opposite where I appreciate Ibushi taking that risk with his body and was stunned when it happened, but each to their own.

I'd have it second behind Kenny Omega vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi, but admit I owe a few matches on the show a rewatch. So far I've gone back and revisited ZSJ/Ishii & Okada/White which were both good matches. The no-sell from ZSJ off the superplex really grinded my gears though.

Jan 23, 2019 12:25:10 GMT Big Pete said:

I could understand having a problem with the finish of the match in regards to Ibushi's safety. I'm the complete opposite where I appreciate Ibushi taking that risk with his body and was stunned when it happened, but each to their own.

I thought the stretcher was just for show. Is it known that he was actually injured? I didn't see anything that looked like it would have hurt him that bad, but I guess these things can be hard to notice.

I was obviously joking with the champion of anywhere match, but here is a legit example of one of Omega's better matches. No silliness (aside from the title of the PPV).



It's not like the Tanahshi match was bad or anything. Omega is just a fantastic athlete who consistently puts on phenomenal matches. WK 13 just wasn't one of the best. I could post a dozen better Omega matches like this one.

Jan 23, 2019 6:43:40 GMT Lionheart said:

Okay, I now finally got around to watching Ibushi vs Ospreay. Holy shit. That was an easy candidate for match of the year. It was more fast-paced, exciting, back-and-forth, charismatic, brutal, well-choreographed, and flashier than Omega vs Tanahashi. I always knew Ibushi was one of the best, but he has only upped his game even more since I last saw him wrestle years ago.

I am honestly completely in shock that RT is the only one that has even mentioned it so far...and at #6. Not only that, but Emperor even specifically pointed out that none of the other matches were anything special! Does no one appreciate athletic talent anymore? Harumph.

When you watch modern wrestling as frequently as I do, you become numb to all the athletic stuff. I've seen dozens of Ospreay/Ibushi/Junior Heavyweight matches with similar levels of athleticism/spottiness, and after a point you just stop caring. They're basically the same. I value character development/storytelling more, which is why Omega vs Tanahashi was my easy MOTN and probably MOTY. Not to say that Ospreay/Ibushi didn't have any of that. It would be my third or fourth favourite match of the show, but they all pale in comparison to the main event.

Ibushi got legitimately concussed. Ospreay clocked him with a spinning elbow/forearm strike to the head that knocked him loopy. It was just before the finish. NJPW don't do fake injury angles with all the stretcher pomp and circumstance like WWE. If that happens, the injury is almost certainly real. Ospreay also incorporated that into his post-match interview.

Wrestling, at its core, is an athletic display. That is the primary tool wrestling uses for entertainment in the first place. Whether it be impressive feats of strength or acrobatic high-flying. Becoming numb to too much athleticism doesn't really make sense to me. Why watch wrestling at all at that point?

As for character development in wrestling, that makes little sense to me also. There is pretty much either none or illogical changes to characters in wrestling and none of it is that deep or interesting.

Storytelling I see as a valid thing and it can certainly add a lot to a match. As far as storytelling in the ring goes, Ibuspreay did a better job of that. They legitimately seemed to be pissed at each other and it was super intense. Aside from that, sure the Omega and Tanahahsi story leading into the match was way better. But saying a match was better simply because the wrestlers cut better promos before it is a bit silly. The match itself still wasn't as good.

Jan 23, 2019 20:00:02 GMT Lionheart said:

Wrestling, at its core, is an athletic display. That is the primary tool wrestling uses for entertainment in the first place. Whether it be impressive feats of strength or acrobatic high-flying. Becoming numb to too much athleticism doesn't really make sense to me. Why watch wrestling at all at that point?

It is the primary tool, but it's what they do with it that counts. When I say I am numb to athleticism, I refer to the kind of match that is dominating modern wrestling, which has more of an emphasis on popping the crowd as much as possible with high spots and (mostly predictable) near falls rather than concocting an emotional story that may not pop the crowd as much but will get a huge reaction at its high points.

Perhaps a film analogy will help. A high octane, high athleticisim spotfest is a summer blockbuster action flick, in contrast to a long epic story-driven match which is more akin to, say, Good Will Hunting. Both types of film/match can be great. The difference is, I couldn't watch blockbuster action movies five days in a row, nor would I want to watch any particular blockbuster movie more than once ever, but a deeper movie/match would have a greater emotional impact on me if done right, and I would be a lot more inclined to consider it great and watch it over and over again.

Yes, I'm a snob. Sue me.

Jan 23, 2019 20:00:02 GMT Lionheart said:

As for character development in wrestling, that makes little sense to me also. There is pretty much either none or illogical changes to characters in wrestling and none of it is that deep or interesting.

Storytelling I see as a valid thing and it can certainly add a lot to a match. As far as storytelling in the ring goes, Ibuspreay did a better job of that. They legitimately seemed to be pissed at each other and it was super intense. Aside from that, sure the Omega and Tanahahsi story leading into the match was way better. But saying a match was better simply because the wrestlers cut better promos before it is a bit silly. The match itself still wasn't as good.

Interesting that you bring up intensity and anger because that's exactly what I got from Omega vs Tanahashi. You could tell that they legitimately hated each other, which is consistent with the match build. As a consequence both wrestlers, but especially Tanahashi, wrestled a lot more aggressively than they normally would. You could really feel the hatred emanating from Tanahashi, which is rare because he's as super babyface as it gets and he rarely displays an edge.

Contrast to Ospreay and Ibushi, where both guys always go full speed ahead, so it doesn't feel special when they do that. At least not to me, who has watched a ton of Ospreay and Ibushi matches in recent years. For you it would be different. Also the build going into their match was a mutual respect thing, which doesn't mesh with how aggressively they fought. But they weren't aggresssive right from the start, you could attribute their later intensity to the strong desire to beat each other, which makes sense, but again isn't particularly special. It's fairly standard for a NJPW match.

Jan 23, 2019 12:25:10 GMT Big Pete said:

Watching Ospreay & Ibushi live

You kept that quiet. I don't recall you mentioning that in the WK thread at all.

Where's the epic post about how you went to the Tokyo Dome? What was the seating like? Did you have a good view? Biggest pop/biggest heat?

Jan 23, 2019 21:58:34 GMT Emperor said:

It is the primary tool, but it's what they do with it that counts. When I say I am numb to athleticism, I refer to the kind of match that is dominating modern wrestling, which has more of an emphasis on popping the crowd as much as possible with high spots and (mostly predictable) near falls rather than concocting an emotional story that may not pop the crowd as much but will get a huge reaction at its high points.

Perhaps a film analogy will help. A high octane, high athleticisim spotfest is a summer blockbuster action flick, in contrast to a long epic story-driven match which is more akin to, say, Good Will Hunting. Both types of film/match can be great. The difference is, I couldn't watch blockbuster action movies five days in a row, nor would I want to watch any particular blockbuster movie more than once ever, but a deeper movie/match would have a greater emotional impact on me if done right, and I would be a lot more inclined to consider it great and watch it over and over again.

Yes, I'm a snob. Sue me.

The difference is that the high level of athleticism requires more talent and is more impressive whereas summer blockbusters are easy contrasted with the more talent put into crafting Good Will Hunting. Almost any wrestlers could make a better story for their match if allotted the proper time and attention in the program to do so. This is like a blockbuster having a higher budget than a masterpiece indie film.

The point is I AM THE ONE WHO IS THE SNOB HERE! I AM SEWING YOU FOR SNOB INFRINGEMENT ON MY SNOBBERY.

Jan 23, 2019 21:58:34 GMT Emperor said:

Interesting that you bring up intensity and anger because that's exactly what I got from Omega vs Tanahashi. You could tell that they legitimately hated each other, which is consistent with the match build. As a consequence both wrestlers, but especially Tanahashi, wrestled a lot more aggressively than they normally would. You could really feel the hatred emanating from Tanahashi, which is rare because he's as super babyface as it gets and he rarely displays an edge.

I guess I missed it because I only remember Tanahashi having a boring, normal look on his face the entire time. Neither guy seemed anywhere near as intense or worked up as they typically do in other matches and there was far more slow-paced time-biding as a result. They do the same athletic shit as Ibushi and Ospreay that you are apparently tired of anyway, they just did less of it and slower. More is better in this case.

And then Tana tries to use a table which goes against his entire stance and made the story make nomega sense.

Jan 23, 2019 22:28:04 GMT Lionheart said:

The difference is that the high level of athleticism requires more talent and is more impressive

It's no longer the 80s where Tiger Mask and Liger can wow audiences with high flying moves never seen before. We've seen it all now. The athleticism bar has been raised to its maximum. Sure, Omega and Tanahashi may not be quite as athletic as Ospreay or Ibushi, but it's close enough that it doesn't make much difference. There's a ton of guys in WWE, NXT, 205 Live, Indies, NJPW, other Japanese companies that can do everything Ospreay and Ibushi can do.

You should check out some lucha libre if you value athleticism that highly. You'd love it.

Jan 23, 2019 22:28:04 GMT Lionheart said:

Almost any wrestlers could make a better story for their match if allotted the proper time and attention in the program to do so.

Disagree.

Jan 23, 2019 21:58:34 GMT Emperor said:

And then Tana tries to use a table which goes against his entire stance and made the story make nomega sense.

Omega was the first to introduce the table. This is in accordance with his philosophy of changing the wrestling world. Excessive table and ladder use in NJPW was unheard of until the last few years, and that's largely thanks to the efforts of Omega, and later Chris Jericho. He wanted to use a table to defeat Tanahashi, which would have added insult to injury. Tanahashi had an opportunity to use the table but refused, because as you say it goes against his philosophy. Much later in the match, he decided to use the table. His hatred towards Omega and his desire to win overcame his beliefs. And it turned out to be a huge mistake because Omega moved out of the way, Tanahashi crashed through the table. Great storytelling.

Just because we've already seen high-flying moves before does not mean they are worthless. I never meant to imply Omega and Tanahashi can't do as impressive athletic feats and are thus lower value. They simply did not in that one match-up because it wasn't the best match. There are tons of other guys in a bunch of companies that can do them as well, and I am entertained and happy to watch all of them. I have seen some LUCHA LIBRE as well and enjoy it too.

Jan 23, 2019 22:48:23 GMT Emperor said:

Omega was the first to introduce the table. This is in accordance with his philosophy of changing the wrestling world. Excessive table and ladder use in NJPW was unheard of until the last few years, and that's largely thanks to the efforts of Omega, and later Chris Jericho. He wanted to use a table to defeat Tanahashi, which would have added insult to injury. Tanahashi had an opportunity to use the table but refused, because as you say it goes against his philosophy. Much later in the match, he decided to use the table. His hatred towards Omega and his desire to win overcame his beliefs. And it turned out to be a huge mistake because Omega moved out of the way, Tanahashi crashed through the table. Great storytelling.

Agreed.

Jan 23, 2019 22:00:58 GMT Emperor said:

Jan 23, 2019 12:25:10 GMT Big Pete said:

Watching Ospreay & Ibushi live

You kept that quiet. I don't recall you mentioning that in the WK thread at all.

Where's the epic post about how you went to the Tokyo Dome? What was the seating like? Did you have a good view? Biggest pop/biggest heat?

Believe me, if I saw it in living colour I'd let everyone know. I meant I watched the show in real-time as it was happening. That's always been a rare feat for me given the time difference between Aus and the US.

As far as the athleticism vs. story-telling debate, I generally appreciate the latter. I subscribe to Raven's theory that Pro Wrestling is first and foremost a drama where fan engagement is based on an emotional connection with the characters. So if guys can sell the violence and the drama of the match, I find myself more engaged than guys just showing how many high-spots they can hit. That isn't necessarily a knock on Ospreay/Ibushi as I felt they did a pretty decent job of putting together a competitive contest, but just the significance of athletic maneuvers in general.

That was kind of obvious that you meant that. I can't believe Emperor actually thought you were there, at the Tokyo Dome, in person. What a fool.

Just kidding. I am the one who thought Pete saw it live and told Emperor, causing him to make that post. Unrelatedly, my official MOTY list thus far is:

1. Chris Jericho vs Tetsuya Naito - Wrestle Kingdom 13
2. Kota Ibushi vs Will Ospreay - Wrestle Kingdom 13
3. Kenny Omega vs Hiroshi Tanahashi - Wrestle Kingdom 13

But I guess you already knew that. You can tell I have seen a lot of shows thus far this year.

To be fair, Wrestle Kingdom 13 is the only big show that's happened so far. This weekend is the Royal Rumble, NXT TakeOver, and the NJPW New Beginning shows are fast approaching.

I am interested to see how many AEW matches, if any, end up on these lists by the year's end.

Jan 25, 2019 23:25:00 GMT Lionheart said:

I am interested to see how many AEW matches, if any, end up on these lists by the year's end.

Kenny Omega vs CM Punk at Double Or Nothing will make my list for sure.