So I asked this question in the Sports Empire. However, I want to ask a broader audience. 

Betting on sports. Is it gambling or investing? Or is investing gambling? Does betting money on teams make you a gambling addict or an investor?

People invest into companies all the time. Some pay off, some don’t. Right now is the best time to bet on teams winning the Super Bowl. The least paying odds being the Patriots winning it all again at +700. Which means betting $100 gets you an $800 winning slip at the end; ala +700.

So throwing for example $5000 on the Saints is a “gamble” or “investment” since they’re +900 to win $50,000. Sounds like an investment to me. But to some, it’s gambling and being an addict or degenerate. 

How do you view sports betting? Is it gambling AKA a bad habit or is it investing? 

Everything is speculative.

It's the same thing to me, betting on the only possible success of something else, or yourself in the case of casino gambling. Dot-Com bubble really showed how quickly investment can turn, belle of the ball one day, broke in the gutter the next. In either case, if you start losing too much, you should quit. Both can be an addiction. Not sure I'd call gambling "investing," but I'd definitely call investing "gambling." Though I guess technically, gambling does give you a vested interest. Whatever, semantics.

Jun 11, 2019 0:29:39 GMT 🤯 said:

Everything is speculative.

Yes and no, people invest for other reasons than capital appreciation.
If you buy a 300k house with the idea that this time next year it will be worth 350k, that is speculative
If you buy a 300k house because it returns 20k per year in rent, that is not speculation.

Jun 11, 2019 6:15:37 GMT RagnarokMike said:

It's the same thing to me, betting on the only possible success of something else, or yourself in the case of casino gambling. Dot-Com bubble really showed how quickly investment can turn, belle of the ball one day, broke in the gutter the next. In either case, if you start losing too much, you should quit. Both can be an addiction. Not sure I'd call gambling "investing," but I'd definitely call investing "gambling." Though I guess technically, gambling does give you a vested interest. Whatever, semantics.

Investing is not gambling for the reasons I listed above.

Jun 11, 2019 0:22:12 GMT KING KID said:

So I asked this question in the Sports Empire. However, I want to ask a broader audience.



Betting on sports. Is it gambling or investing? Or is investing gambling? Does betting money on teams make you a gambling addict or an investor?



People invest into companies all the time. Some pay off, some don’t. Right now is the best time to bet on teams winning the Super Bowl. The least paying odds being the Patriots winning it all again at +700. Which means betting $100 gets you an $800 winning slip at the end; ala +700.



So throwing for example $5000 on the Saints is a “gamble” or “investment” since they’re +900 to win $50,000. Sounds like an investment to me. But to some, it’s gambling and being an addict or degenerate.



How do you view sports betting? Is it gambling AKA a bad habit or is it investing?

I would disagree on the basis of the odds, Bookies are always reading the form guides and adjusting their odds to reflect real world events.
Share prices move purely on the basis of the market and the weight of money, the value is not artificial and exactly what someone is willing to pay.

I was talking more specifically of investing in the sense of stocks and the like, investing money into a thing in the hopes of a profit. So yeah, in the sense of putting money into a thing that's guaranteed to have a positive, or at least not negative, effect on your finances in a certain facet, it wouldn't be gambling.

Jun 11, 2019 7:15:34 GMT iNCY said:

Jun 11, 2019 0:29:39 GMT 🤯 said:

Everything is speculative.

Yes and no, people invest for other reasons than capital appreciation.
If you buy a 300k house with the idea that this time next year it will be worth 350k, that is speculative
If you buy a 300k house because it returns 20k per year in rent, that is not speculation.

Jun 11, 2019 6:15:37 GMT RagnarokMike said:

It's the same thing to me, betting on the only possible success of something else, or yourself in the case of casino gambling. Dot-Com bubble really showed how quickly investment can turn, belle of the ball one day, broke in the gutter the next. In either case, if you start losing too much, you should quit. Both can be an addiction. Not sure I'd call gambling "investing," but I'd definitely call investing "gambling." Though I guess technically, gambling does give you a vested interest. Whatever, semantics.

Investing is not gambling for the reasons I listed above.

Jun 11, 2019 0:22:12 GMT KING KID said:

So I asked this question in the Sports Empire. However, I want to ask a broader audience.



Betting on sports. Is it gambling or investing? Or is investing gambling? Does betting money on teams make you a gambling addict or an investor?



People invest into companies all the time. Some pay off, some don’t. Right now is the best time to bet on teams winning the Super Bowl. The least paying odds being the Patriots winning it all again at +700. Which means betting $100 gets you an $800 winning slip at the end; ala +700.



So throwing for example $5000 on the Saints is a “gamble” or “investment” since they’re +900 to win $50,000. Sounds like an investment to me. But to some, it’s gambling and being an addict or degenerate.



How do you view sports betting? Is it gambling AKA a bad habit or is it investing?

I would disagree on the basis of the odds, Bookies are always reading the form guides and adjusting their odds to reflect real world events.
Share prices move purely on the basis of the market and the weight of money, the value is not artificial and exactly what someone is willing to pay.

Isn't it some level of speculation that you'll be able to consistently rent it out?

"Isn't it some level of speculation that you'll be able to consistently rent it out?" - Abso-freaking-lutely. Speculating you won't have damages, special assessments, troubles collecting etc. Home ownership is overrated. Renting out a property is a risk investment. It isn't about speculation as much as it is risk vs reward.

And risk is all we are talking about here. Gambling and investing is risk vs reward. There are no zero risk investments that guarantee a reward. Even a CD or Savings account interest technically have risk.

Jun 11, 2019 13:09:24 GMT theend said:

"Isn't it some level of speculation that you'll be able to consistently rent it out?" - Abso-freaking-lutely. Speculating you won't have damages, special assessments, troubles collecting etc. Home ownership is overrated. Renting out a property is a risk investment. It isn't about speculation as much as it is risk vs reward.

And risk is all we are talking about here. Gambling and investing is risk vs reward. There are no zero risk investments that guarantee a reward. Even a CD or Savings account interest technically have risk.

For whatever it's not worth, my favorite kind of speculating was mining.

Jun 11, 2019 13:09:24 GMT theend said:

"Isn't it some level of speculation that you'll be able to consistently rent it out?" - Abso-freaking-lutely. Speculating you won't have damages, special assessments, troubles collecting etc. Home ownership is overrated. Renting out a property is a risk investment. It isn't about speculation as much as it is risk vs reward.

And risk is all we are talking about here. Gambling and investing is risk vs reward. There are no zero risk investments that guarantee a reward. Even a CD or Savings account interest technically have risk.

No, that is pretty much entirely wrong.
Everything about investment is risk management which is not like gambling.
You do your numbers based on insuring the place against damages, the place not always being rented etc.
These numbers are factored in before the investment is made.
With all of these factors you can price them in as a known quantity, yes the market could crash, but that is why investments are hedged against risk.

To make money out of gambling you have to be more accurate than the market, to win the market has to be wrong.
In investment you rely on the market, if it performs as it should or better you make money.
Again, the idea that investment is all about capital appreciation is wrong.

Fun fact... When inflation is higher than interest rates, your savings are essentially losing money.
That is why you should hold your cash in assets of some sort.

Nope, I was entirely right. You can do your numbers to factor in the damages, the place not being rented and figure a margin. And like you said your investment is hedged against a risk. You can still lose. You are "speculating" or taking a risk. You figured a margin that you feel comfortable in. But that margin can fall apart a million ways and it happens all the damn time.

It is a gamble in the purest and most simple sense of the word. You don't control everything even if you account for almost everything. This why landlords become slumlords and pinch pennies. People lose money as property owners and managers all the time.


"To make money out of gambling you have to be more accurate than the market, to win the market has to be wrong." - This also done in stock market "investing"

"In investment you rely on the market, if it performs as it should" - As it should, that's like betting on Kawhi playing like he should and not calling it gambling but investing. Markets and players perform as they do. Not as they should. Including the housing and rental marketplace.

I love when you meet with an investor and they will tell you that the Dow Jones has performed consistently over the last 100 years or 50 years. But that means nothing about how it will be performing in the time period you plan on retiring. You may have to adjust your retirement age by 2.5 to 5 years depending on the market at that time but hey, it won't interfere with the average that it has performed for the last 100 years.

There is always risk and you are putting money against risk for a reward. That is all gambling and investing are.

Jun 11, 2019 14:06:09 GMT theend said:

Nope, I was entirely right. You can do your numbers to factor in the damages, the place not being rented and figure a margin. And like you said your investment is hedged against a risk. You can still lose. You are "speculating" or taking a risk. You figured a margin that you feel comfortable in. But that margin can fall apart a million ways and it happens all the damn time.

It is a gamble in the purest and most simple sense of the word. You don't control everything even if you account for almost everything. This why landlords become slumlords and pinch pennies. People lose money as property owners and managers all the time.


"To make money out of gambling you have to be more accurate than the market, to win the market has to be wrong." - This also done in stock market "investing"

"In investment you rely on the market, if it performs as it should" - As it should, that's like betting on Kawhi playing like he should and not calling it gambling but investing. Markets and players perform as they do. Not as they should. Including the housing and rental marketplace.

I love when you meet with an investor and they will tell you that the Dow Jones has performed consistently over the last 100 years or 50 years. But that means nothing about how it will be performing in the time period you plan on retiring. You may have to adjust your retirement age by 2.5 to 5 years depending on the market at that time but hey, it won't interfere with the average that it has performed for the last 100 years.

There is always risk and you are putting money against risk for a reward. That is all gambling and investing are.

You have a set idea of what investing is... And it is completely wrong!
With gambling the odds reflect the likelihood of winning, the more likely the win the lower the odds so the more sure the return is the less you make.
You keep saying about how you can still lose with investing, it is all about risk profile.
You don't lose money unless you sell the investment.
You don't have to beat the market to return a profit.

If you are hung up on the idea of property, forget that.
Here is a real stock: www.asx.com.au/asx/share-price-research/company/TCL
Share price of 38.560 paying a dividend of 200c which is a 4.14% return annually
So after 2.5 years the stock has returned you a profit of around 10%
Even if the price of the shares hasn't gone up at all, you still make money.
If the share price goes down, you don't sell and you wait, you still make money on the dividends all the way through.

My best investment is the factory that I run my business out of.
I bought it for 409k in 2011 since then I have rented it off myself for around 22k per year for 7 years.
That's a 5.37% annual return plus the place was recently valued at 440k to 460k with an offer of around the top end.
So if you factor that in, it is a 44% return, but please tell me how that is like gambling.

I do not have a set idea of what investing is. I know exactly what it is. And I am completely flexible. Change my mind. Yelling at me will not change my mind!


You keep saying about how you can still lose with investing, it is all about risk profile.- No disagreement. So is gambling.

You don't lose money unless you sell the investment.- Yes, you can still stick money in a losing investment as well. Just like gambling. You can lose money before selling an investment as well. People do it all the time.

You don't have to beat the market to return a profit.- Correct, we agree. You can also invest in the market losing.

Do you understand there is still risk that if I buy that one share at 38.56 that I may never see that 4.14% return? It is possible. It is still a risk, a gamble. Or that share could go down so significantly that 4.14% of next to nothing makes it so it would take an eternity to even get my 38.56 back? Or I may never. Which would be a loss in my gamble.

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value on an event with an uncertain outcome

Investing expend money with the expectation of achieving a profit or material result by putting it into financial schemes, shares, or property, or by using it to develop a commercial venture.

Same.

It's not investing. You are playing a game designed to lose. Also the odds aren't made on the Colts or whomever have a 7/1 chance of winning the Super Bowl - they are made with the sole purpose of creating action by bettors , because Vegas wants that action.

It's like lines and odds move constantly , if enough people pound that 7/1 mark then by the beginning of the season it's going to be 5/1 and you got a decent bet on your hands. If no one is throwing money at the Colts and Vegas wants more money on that line it could be 10/1 by the beginning of the season and your bet kind of sucks now. It's why futures are always a tricky bet because things could change or Vegas could change the narrative and make you hate the odds your getting.

The same thing goes with Weekly betting , that most gamblers don't simply understand. People see the Patriots are favored by 12 and think that means they are most likely to win by twelve. That isn't remotely true - lines are created for the sole purpose of getting action on all sides and move accordingly. It's why some lines open the week at Patriots -5 and by the time they kick off it could be Patriots -2 because people were pounding the underdog. Vegas wants equal bets on both sides - because you are generally paying a -110 vig on all winning bet's anyways at least for weekly football.

It's a fun activity , I love sports gambling - but it's silly and irresponsible to look at is like a sound investment. That's how people get into trouble with gambling.

And I could be speaking out of my ass here because I don't know a ton about investing , but to use the house analogy from earlier in the thread - whether you buy a house to flip it or rent it and it ends up not working out the way you imagined and doesn't turn into the viable investment you thought it was - you still have SOME monetary value left in that house to recoup your losses , or at least a decent percentage of them.

In gambling there isn't really that option , you bet on the Colts , the Colts flop and you are out everything. If the Colts make it to the AFC title game and lose then you aren't getting 80% of your bet back because you got close - you are out everything.

From a novice point of view the difference (to me) on the investing side , is that often times there are ways to at least get out of your investment - recoup from your investment and really there are multiple outcomes on the other side that vary how successful it was. With gambling there is only two outcomes - you win or you lose. No getting out of the "investment" , no recouping your losses.

I love the chatter. I’m not intelligent in the investing into homes/businesses department. I have a slight idea. I also know that investments into companies go terrible and people lose a lot of money. I’ve seen it happen to retired people. I’ve also seen investments pay off like crazy and make the rich even richer.

I just think it has the same general idea as gambling on sports teams. I’m not going to throw $15,000 on the Colts to win (which btw would get me $225,000) because it would put my family in a bad spot. But investing what you can afford by putting it on a team you believe in is the same as investing. I don’t have to sit in meetings with bosses who are going to show me graphs and predictions. I get to look at what the team has done in the draft, in free agency and what their roster looks like. Of course, only 1 team can win it all and like UT said, I don’t get a percentage based on how far they get. Only if they win it all. I guess that is the ultimate difference.

I’m still going to start telling people that I invest into sports teams, though.

Investing in my business idea of having a car service like uber to help haul stuff you bought from the hardware store that is too big to fit in your car could yield you no return on your investment even if you don't sell the investment. You will likely lose money. 50% of $0 you bought for $15,000 is a loss despite of what incy may try to tell you.  You can hold on to 50% of nothing, but you still lost money.  And a 4.14% dividend of $0 is nothing too.

Better off with the Colts. But if the Colts are 15 to 1 nd you bet $15,000. Just make sure to place some other bets that you are sure to win to cover your $15,000 possible loss so that way you don't lose and then you didn't gamble. You invested.



Website business idea: Marketplace to sell unwanted gift cards for cash.


 million dollar business idea: offer a service that allows you to drop your car off to be serviced, repaired or detailed while you are traveling. Free parking and shuttle service to the airport included. Target customers, the busy traveler.

Other options to invest and possibly lose money.

Jun 11, 2019 15:44:41 GMT theend said:

Better off with the Colts. But if the Colts are 15 to 1 nd you bet $15,000. Just make sure to place some other bets that you are sure to win to cover your $15,000 possible loss so that way you don't lose and then you didn't gamble. You invested.

So then your killing your money by throwing good money at a bet to wash? And completely cut into your odds if the Colts do end up winning? And who else you going to bet on? If gambling , especially on future was that easy then everyone would do it. 

So you spend 15,000 on the Colts , doesn't look like they are going to win it this year so you spend another 7000 trying to cover your losses , now you have 22000 into this original bet in hopes of breaking even - only that 7000 you invested was on longshots because you needed the odds and now your out 22000 instead of the original 15000 and even more fucked. 

I've been around gambling , and sports gambling my whole adult life - known every type of gambler and gambled a bunch on my own. It's a losing proposition in the long run. 

I mean Kid should just go down to the horse track and start betting on the 10/1 winners and see what happens. It's the same thing with more of an instant payoff. 

you gotta have a system.... *makes nervous tick*

Having said all that , there is professional sports bettors out there who can make a living off it , but they bet every thing , every angle , live betting , obscure betting and everything else. That's a different animal that can take up to 60 hours a week of research and becomes a full time job and stops being fun. Plus you have to have an incredible bankroll to be able to sustain any losses.

It's a 7 day a week job though and they sure as hell don't invest heavily in futures.

When the Colts win the Super Bowl; you’ll wish you listened to me on my investment.

If you ask my uncle, sports gambling is investing, but that's only because his wife straightened him out and basically gave him a gambling allowance out of the income they both make at their respective jobs. My uncle was into some real shady shit when he was younger and I won't get into all the details but he turned his life around thanks to her and now he's on like World Poker Tour and shit (not famous or anything but he usually comes out with more than he went in with).

I play the lottery because I can afford to throw away 6 bucks or whatever it is a week for a chance at millions of dollars if the gambling gods decide my number is going to hit. But if I was broke or not working I wouldn't do it because that would be silly. And it's definitely not an investment because I know I'm throwing money away every week and I don't plan my life around winning millions of dollars out of the blue.

I look at all gambling as the odds are stacked against you and if you believe otherwise, you're delusional or just incredibly lucky. My uncle is a good poker player and will drop a few hundred bucks on a sure thing when it comes to sports, and he'll usually win, but he knows he's got a bit of luck on his side and he knows the consequences of losing (all too well thanks to his younger days).

I think there are people that can make money off gambling (that aren't the loan sharks or casinos or whatever) but like others have said, it's a full-time job and at any minute your entire world could come crashing down, and you need to respect that. And if you get way ahead and walk away to put that money in a savings account, then maybe you can call it investing at that point.

Gambling is a good investment, especially poker machines. Please play poker machines.



That is all.

I wonder if card counters still call it gambling. Like Ben Mezrich's Bringing Down The House with the MIT card counters.

Jun 11, 2019 19:41:49 GMT theend said:

I wonder if card counters still call it gambling. Like Ben Mezrich's Bringing Down The House with the MIT card counters.

I would say they call it a career , you have to put in a ton of time in order to really take advantage of the edge card counting gives you. Rarely do you see legitimate card counters sit down for an hour at a time here and there. You're also still going to take your lumps so you better have the bankroll. 

Then you have to deal with reputation after awhile and be smart about it. 

Jun 11, 2019 14:58:19 GMT theend said:

I do not have a set idea of what investing is. I know exactly what it is. And I am completely flexible. Change my mind. Yelling at me will not change my mind!


You keep saying about how you can still lose with investing, it is all about risk profile.- No disagreement. So is gambling.

You don't lose money unless you sell the investment.- Yes, you can still stick money in a losing investment as well. Just like gambling. You can lose money before selling an investment as well. People do it all the time.

You don't have to beat the market to return a profit.- Correct, we agree. You can also invest in the market losing.

Do you understand there is still risk that if I buy that one share at 38.56 that I may never see that 4.14% return? It is possible. It is still a risk, a gamble. Or that share could go down so significantly that 4.14% of next to nothing makes it so it would take an eternity to even get my 38.56 back? Or I may never. Which would be a loss in my gamble.

I'm not yelling, but similarly I am not particularly interested in arguing with someone who says things purely for effect and would be better suited to removing the garden stake from their hind quarters, but happy to continue the discusison.

Jun 11, 2019 15:37:55 GMT KING KID said:

I love the chatter. I’m not intelligent in the investing into homes/businesses department. I have a slight idea. I also know that investments into companies go terrible and people lose a lot of money. I’ve seen it happen to retired people. I’ve also seen investments pay off like crazy and make the rich even richer.

I just think it has the same general idea as gambling on sports teams. I’m not going to throw $15,000 on the Colts to win (which btw would get me $225,000) because it would put my family in a bad spot. But investing what you can afford by putting it on a team you believe in is the same as investing. I don’t have to sit in meetings with bosses who are going to show me graphs and predictions. I get to look at what the team has done in the draft, in free agency and what their roster looks like. Of course, only 1 team can win it all and like UT said, I don’t get a percentage based on how far they get. Only if they win it all. I guess that is the ultimate difference.

I’m still going to start telling people that I invest into sports teams, though.

You should invest in your business intelligence, it's the difference between scraping by and living comfortably.
The huddled masses earn money and buy toys, smart rich people buy assets and the assets buy the toys.
You have to build the passive income.

Everyone always throws up their hands and tells you people lose money in the stock market...
Yes stupid people do and only if they cash out.
Even when the GFC hit, stock prices are way back to where they were before the crash.
Problem is that most people invest like dick heads buying stock because they think the company is cool.
The worst stock to buy is one that is hyped.

i.e.
Apple it's share price is 16 times earnings and it's dividend is only 1.59% 
Tesla has a negative P/E of -$5.72 and no dividends a terrible investment

People buy what is sexy, not what is smart.

Jun 11, 2019 18:28:42 GMT RT said:

If you ask my uncle, sports gambling is investing, but that's only because his wife straightened him out and basically gave him a gambling allowance out of the income they both make at their respective jobs. My uncle was into some real shady shit when he was younger and I won't get into all the details but he turned his life around thanks to her and now he's on like World Poker Tour and shit (not famous or anything but he usually comes out with more than he went in with).

I play the lottery because I can afford to throw away 6 bucks or whatever it is a week for a chance at millions of dollars if the gambling gods decide my number is going to hit. But if I was broke or not working I wouldn't do it because that would be silly. And it's definitely not an investment because I know I'm throwing money away every week and I don't plan my life around winning millions of dollars out of the blue.

I look at all gambling as the odds are stacked against you and if you believe otherwise, you're delusional or just incredibly lucky. My uncle is a good poker player and will drop a few hundred bucks on a sure thing when it comes to sports, and he'll usually win, but he knows he's got a bit of luck on his side and he knows the consequences of losing (all too well thanks to his younger days).

I think there are people that can make money off gambling (that aren't the loan sharks or casinos or whatever) but like others have said, it's a full-time job and at any minute your entire world could come crashing down, and you need to respect that. And if you get way ahead and walk away to put that money in a savings account, then maybe you can call it investing at that point.

I totally believe that this is the case and that someone that bets infrequently and in large amounts can make money gambling.
The issue is that they need to live it and breathe it and be ready to bet big with the right opportunities.
With the same level of attention and dedication you could make 100 times more doing something else.

Still I believe the best way to make money in the current economy is to start a business, even a small part time one.
Anybody interested?

Jun 14, 2019 0:50:38 GMT iNCY said:

Still I believe the best way to make money in the current economy is to start a business, even a small part time one.
Anybody interested?

I’m in. What you thinking?

Jun 14, 2019 0:51:52 GMT Brezzy said:

Jun 14, 2019 0:50:38 GMT iNCY said:

Still I believe the best way to make money in the current economy is to start a business, even a small part time one.
Anybody interested?

I’m in. What you thinking?

    Is it really you B?! :love: