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Post by Baker on Aug 20, 2019 4:14:00 GMT
Added Abyss and The Giant. Only Nova is left from this batch. Will cover him tomorrow. Then finally move on to new names.
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Post by Shootist on Aug 20, 2019 5:23:20 GMT
Added Abyss and The Giant. Only Nova is left from this batch. Will cover him tomorrow. Then finally move on to new names. We are completely in sync with the Giant. His 1995/96 run set the bar, then Goldberg shattered it two years later while the Giant was channeling his inner Sandman as a chain smoker. He was also doing moonsaults in the WCW Power Plant reportedly.
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Post by 🤯 on Aug 20, 2019 13:49:31 GMT
Just got caught up on Hanson and Knox. They'd make an awesome tag team.
Also, I feel like an idiot for forgetting the epicness of the Knox Body. That's up there for an all-time favorite running strike finisher too.
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Post by PB on Aug 20, 2019 14:42:51 GMT
Want to double down on everything Baker, said about Mike Knox on Smackdown. In a era lacking interesting characters and everyone being just a guy, Mike Knox was a breath of fresh air and they gave him this awesome gimmick, built him up for a couple of weeks, and then dropped it completely without ever really trying. I think he debuted on TV too early, before they figured out who he was, and so was tainted with not being so great. By the time the beard, the gimmick and the cross-body arrived people had already made their minds up about him and weren't really willing to give him a chance.
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Post by Baker on Aug 20, 2019 15:31:59 GMT
Nova's blurb is up. Meaning the last batch is finally complete. Next duo will consist of an old school/AWF guy most of you probably don't care about and our first queen. Shootist Giant doing a moonsault in the Power Plant is one of the most endearing wrestling urban legends. I Want To Believe. Some Power Plant footage has surfaced in recent years. Hopefully The Giant's mythical moonsault eventually sees the light of the day.
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Post by Da Gr8t I Is on Aug 20, 2019 19:03:29 GMT
I’m glad someone else saw the potential in Ryback and is also upset he didn’t win the title. It would have been amazing if he upset CM Punk. Should have done it. I met and also hung out with Ryback a few years ago at a indie show he was wrestling at down the street from my house. He was a really nice guy and also very positive.
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Post by Baker on Aug 21, 2019 2:11:29 GMT
#150 Chris AdamsI saw "The Gentleman" wrestle....somewhere as a kid. Maybe the Watts UWF? Or perhaps it was USWA Texas? Maybe both? But he obviously didn't leave any lasting impression on me since I literally cannot remember where it was I saw him wrestle. The first time Adams really registered with me was through a book I got for Christmas 1990 called The Pictorial History of Wrestling by George Napolitano. My brother and I both got a kick out a wrestler calling himself "The Gentleman." It was so un-wrestling! Wrestlers had names like "The Brute" or "The Bruiser." Not "The Gentleman!" It amused us. My mental image of Adams was as an over the top baby kissing good guy who would never, ever bend the rules. Adams had a big run in World Class during the 80s. Definitely one of their top non-Von Erich guys. He also had some success in latter day Watts UWF. He's probably most famous today for feuding with his most famous trainee, a rookie named Steve Austin, in USWA Texas. That feud has always been hyped as a good Bruno/Zbyszko style rivalry. I may have actually seen bits and pieces of it as a kid. But if so, I do not remember any details. Somehow I have also been long aware that Adams feuded with....somebody (Great Kabuki, maybe?) over who had the better Superkick. It was probably mentioned in that Napolitano book. Where Adams got over with me was in 1996 AWF (where they wrestled in rounds). The Texas Hangmen were the best in ring tag team in AWF. Adams was their best in ring singles competitor. He had a great Superkick and somehow made the powerbomb look like a finesse move (in a good way). Adams was Mr. Superkick before HBK came along. He popularized the move (at least in America) and even the name 'Superkick' (before Adams it was usually referred to as a Savate/Savot Kick). Adams was also a legit world class Judo player in his youth. Another reason I liked AWF Chris Adams is because even though he was an "old guy" he didn't seem like one due to a lack of Big 2 runs. Meaning he was a lot fresher than the WWF & WCW oldies he shared AWF rings with. In AWF 1.0 he feuded with (near miss/Honorable Mention) "Ambassador" Steve Casey and occasionally teamed with Scorpio. In AWF 2.0 he....didn't really do anything of note other than get over with me. Adams had a WCW run after AWF, mainly on the B & C Shows. Good for him! I used to wonder why a solid hand like Adams never got the WWF or WCW call when he was in his prime. At the very least, he'd have been a serviceable partner/rival for either Bulldog or Regal. Now I have a better idea why it took him so long to reach the big time. Turns out he was a real life loose cannon. I assume the Powers That Be just didn't want to deal with any Adams-related headaches. ------------------------------ *Look, this list is not perfect. Before I started writing The Gentleman's blurb I was asking myself "Why is Chris Adams 22 spots above The Texas Hangmen? Why is he above them at all? Come to think of it, why is Tim Horner 18 spots above Big Daddy?" Answer: This list makes no sense! I honestly did put a lot of time and effort into it. But sometimes I just get it wrong. Adams should be like 180s-190s at best. You can't take the rankings too seriously until we get up to the 60s or 70s. That's where they become....if not quite written in stone, at least written in ink. ----------------------------- #149 Lacey Evans
Now listen up, ya nasties. Looorrrddd knows this list has lacked class......Until now. Because Lacey Evans has finally arrived to class up this nasty list. Lacey is the most recent addition to The List. I only discovered her a few months back during my free one month WWE Network trial run. She immediately won me over with that gif worthy entrance. So much so that Lacey earned the super special gif treatment hitherto reserved only for the great Disco Inferno. It was Money In The Bank 2019. Lacey was wrestling Becky Lynch for one of the Women's Titles. Now I'll admit I was predisposed to rooting against Becky. Look, it's a psychological thing. I just have this innate desire to root against top babyfaces. Yet even if I hadn't, how could I root for Boring Becky when Lacey Evans is right there in all her glory? I mean, look at that entrance! That's a woman shooting money with her face on it out of ridiculous toy guns. Sold! Soooo pro wrestling it hurts. Plus stealing a great JBL bit is always going to work. Just ask Kazuchika Okada if you don't believe me. Lacey has great outfits. She keeps kayfabe 24/7 on social media. She has a bunch of catchphrases. She's a right proper Character. Lacey Evans would have been gold in WOW. Truly the highest compliment.... Wrong! There is one compliment even greater..... Next. Lana. Star. Yeah, I went there. Lacey Evans is the best thing to hit women's wrestling since Queen Lana.Lacey's finisher is a simple punch called The Women's Right. I mean, ok. A punch finisher is pretty lame. But at least she hits it well! And I guess it works on some level since she's a heel and heels are theoretically supposed to get booed. Surely a punch finisher=boos in a workrate world? Lacey was the darling of the bottom quarter of The List. Every time I went back to check out that part of the list I'd bump Lacey up a few spots. So much so in fact that she ended up getting bumped right out of that bottom quarter and into the next quadrant. I'm almost positive Lacey would be my current favorite wrestler if I could be bothered to watch modern wrestling more than once or twice a year. Long live the (new) Queen! ------------------------------- *Next Time: Two popular undersized wrestlers who broke through the glass ceiling to become legends. Both men would almost surely be in the Top 50 (at the very least) for most of you. Yet neither guy ever truly connected with me outside of one run apiece. Controversy is coming.....
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Post by Shootist on Aug 21, 2019 2:24:44 GMT
I only watched Chris Adams in real time in WCW and through Sting comps where he was instrumental in Sting's face turn in the UWF. I need to get around to more World Class Adams though sometime where he was teaming with Gino Hernandez as the Dynamic Duo. He is the cliche good hand that never got the big break.
I agree that if I was watching more current stuff that Lacey Evans would be my favorite of female batch. Great gimmick, look and throws a solid working punch. The female Scott Hall?
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Post by Kilgore on Aug 21, 2019 2:33:46 GMT
I watched a chunk of the Austin-Adams feud when I did Steve Austin Month three years ago and I remember loving it, although I've already forgotten specifics except that Lady Blossom kind of ruled too.
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Post by thereallt on Aug 21, 2019 5:07:15 GMT
Chris Adams was one hell of a worker but was kind of flat charisma wise.
Lacey Evans has a great look and a great gimmick but is currently shit in the ring. Lame ass finisher as well. With any luck though she'll improve and maybe even develop a finisher that's worth a damn
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Post by Big Pete on Aug 21, 2019 14:00:20 GMT
Loooordd get a load of Lacey. I'm surprised to see her this high. We're over ten years since you were an active fan, so I thought anyone from this generation would have next to no chance. Clearly you recognise a real lady when you see one. Lacey is a head-turner, not only does she look like a star, she carries herself with a confidence that belies her experience. She does a wonderful job of playing to her gimmick and her cadence (one of my favourite pieces of Austin's criteria) sets her apart from her co-workers.
As an in-ring talent she's still developing. There's been a couple of times where she's been out of position and looked lost. However she also possess a lot of natural athleticism and looks believable. If she's in the ring with somebody who understands her limitations and doesn't try to run a lot of overly complicated routines I think she would prosper.
I was genuinely surprised by how much I enjoyed her act. When she first came onto the scene, outside of the women's Royal Rumble, all she did was making her entrance and toddle off. They didn't establish a character, they didn't give her any wins or anything to establish her, just this entrance gimmick that felt more or less like a waste of time. For her to work three main event calibre programs in a row is a testament to her natural ability.
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Post by UT on Aug 21, 2019 17:44:56 GMT
Lacey Evans is a shock. I didn't think Baker kept up with the current product at all , much less to have someone in his Top 200. She's pretty fuckig awesome though.
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Post by Baker on Aug 21, 2019 22:40:34 GMT
Lacey Evans=PW Draw
I didn't think Lacey's relatively high placement would be THAT shocking. Other 2010s wrestlers were scattered throughout the bottom of the list. Their numbers do thin out as we progress though. Think I only have 3.5 primarily 2010s wrestlers in the Top 100, with a handful of others getting slight current decade boosts.
Working on the next batch of 3 at the moment. They'll be posted before I go to sleep tonight. These entries are gonna be looooong (sorry, Disco). I feel the need to explain myself even more than usual for having these 3 (well, 2.5) highly respected legends so "low."
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Post by Baker on Aug 22, 2019 0:19:58 GMT
#148 Jerry Lynn{Spoiler}Jerry Lynn first got on the radar of people in the know through his series of matches with Lightning Kid in Global. If I ever saw Lynn there, I certainly did not remember him. He was no Patriot!
My first exposure to Lynn came in 95-96 WCW where he wrestled as the masked jobber Mr. JL. I thought he was a total jabronie. Bobby Heenan would always claim it was somebody famous under the mask. The only JL I could think of at the time was Jerry Lawler. Was "The Brain" trying to con us into thinking Mr. JL was "The King?" I certainly hope not. Nowadays I imagine Heenan was trying to fool WCW fans into thinking Mr. JL was Jushin Liger. Yeah, that's much more believable. Aside from that, my only lasting memory of Mr. JL in WCW is an enjoyable Worldwide match with Brad Armstrong. And even that probably only stands out in my mind because it ended in a rare Brad victory.Â
Lynn left WCW in 1997 to the sound of crickets. I think he showed up once or twice to compete in WWF's burgeoning Light Heavyweight division, but nothing ever came of that, and he soon ended up in ECW.
I was indifferent to him there as well. He was just low card, white meat babyface filler for a year and a half. Basically an Armstrong with cooler moves. I'm not going to say he was the most forgettable guy in ECW. 1998 ECW had a lot of forgettable guys. But he was certainly among the most forgettable.
8 days before his breakout match on PPV with RVD I was part of an ECW Arena crowd which turned on Lynn (& Storm). They tried doing the old time limit draw-"5 More Minutes" thing only to have the crowd reject it with chants of "End The Match" or "Just Say No." This goes to show how NOT over Lynn was before the RVD matches.
You guys all know what happened next. Lynn & RVD tore the house down on PPV. Lynn became an overnight sensation....after a decade of toiling in obscurity. RVD & Lynn had a few other killer matches that year. Lynn also had a good PPV match with Lance. Never again would JL have to worry about ECW crowds turning on him. He was now "The New F'n Show" and one of the most popular wrestlers in the company.
But he still never really clicked with me. Oh sure, I was a Jerry Lynn Respecter by this point. I was even ok with him ending RVD's glorious 16 month TV Title reign at the August '99 ECW Arena show (mainly just to free RVD up for even bigger and better things. But still!). I'd give Lynn respectful golf claps. I might even chant "Jerry" if he was wrestling the hated Impact Players. But I'd never go to a show just for Jerry Lynn, buy a Jerry Lynn shirt, or anything crazy like that.Â
Jerry Lynn eventually won the ECW Title from Justin Credible. I was obviously glad to have the belt off Aldo. But Jerry Lynn? Really? Meh. I was mostly done with ECW by that time anyway. And Jerry Lynn as the top guy certainly wasn't going to bring me rushing back.
ECW folded a few months later. Lynn ended up having another blink and you miss it WWF run. Sure, he held the Light Heavyweight Title. Big deal. So did Gillberg. And at least Gillberg was over. I only remember seeing Lynn a few times during this run. He made minimal impact and no lasting impression.
I had a new wrestling fan clique in the early 2000s. The core group consisted of 5 people counting myself. Two were wrestling newbies who did not grow up as fans, and didn't even convert during the Attitude Era. But they did come around by about mid-2001. The other two were lifelong fans who were somewhere between casuals and hardcores. We were all big fans of the Smackdown video game series. We all had the game with our own memory cards. A few nights a week we'd meet up to play at this one guy's house. Each member of the group had their own custom CAW. We all had other CAWs as well. Anyway, Jerry Lynn was in this game. It lead to this conversation...
Newbies: Who the hell is Jerry Lynn? Longtime Fan #1: LOL. A jobber. Longtime Fan #2: Nuh uh! He was big in ECW! Feuded with RVD! Great matches! *All looked to me for a final decision Me: They're both right. He was big in ECW but a jobber everywhere else.
This conversation weirdly lead to Jerry Lynn being one of my go to guys in the Smackdown video game. We usually played CAW(s) vs. CAW(s). But every once in a while we'd pick normal wrestlers for matches. Jerry Lynn, Dean Malenko (who got the same "Who the hell is this guy?" treatment from the noobs), and Billy Gunn (One and Only!) were my go to programmed characters.
So, yeah, I finally became a Jerry Lynn fan not because of his awesome matches with RVD, or his generally good ECW run, but because of a video game.
This carried over to his TNA run. I started watching TNA the night Raven debuted in January 2003 and was backing Jerry Lynn from then on. Fwiw one of the noobs I had introduced to Jerry Lynn was also a big JL fan by this point. Lynn had a pretty cool character in TNA as the veteran X Division pioneer who had to prove he hadn't lost a step against all these younger, even more athletic guys. Good stuff. He was easy to get behind as a babyface. And I made up for years of dismissing him by rooting for JL over just about everybody. Hell, I even would have accepted him beating JJ to get a "thank you" run with the NWA Title. Loved the match where he teamed up with Red to beat XXX for the TNA Tag Titles. In fact, that was my favorite TNA match until the first AMW/XXX cage match a few months later.Â
I think he got injured and was out for a long time. At any rate, I lost track of him. He'd pop up here and there for years but the magic was gone. He would later have a poorly received Randy the Ram inspired ROH Championship run that ended ROH's run as "the cool promotion" for a lot of people. I personally haven't seen any of that stuff.
Lynn was a good "B Promotion" star who never managed to hit it big in the major league feds. Yet he created a strong legacy for himself as a well-respected, well- liked competitor who helped to popularize cruiserweight wrestling in the US. The RVD series will be his lasting claim to fame. And now he's working for AEW in an agent role. Good for him. #147 Eddie Guerrero
{Spoiler}Eddie first got on my radar wrestling Chris Benoit in 1995 WCW. I swear they wrestled on one WCW show or another every single week for months. I was not complaining! They were the poster boys for New Style Wrestling. Their matches were innovative, exciting, and filled with moves I had never seen before.
So I was an Eddie Guerrero respecter from Day One. But that's as far as it went. Same story as Jerry Lynn. Enjoyed his wrestling, but he didn't have a hook beyond that. There was nothing to grab me. He was just another white meat babyface. An Armstrong with cooler moves, but still just an Armstrong (or Zenk if you prefer) in the end.
This went on for about a year. Eddie would have good matches while I would mentally golf clap for him. Beyond the Benoit series, my friends and I all loved this random Nitro match he had with The Barbarian. Great stuff!
I went off WCW in August '96. Eddie wasn't a guy I kept particularly close tabs on over the next few years. I don't even think I knew he went heel for the longest time. I couldn't imagine Eddie as a bad guy anyway. In my mind he was one of those guys destined to always be a fan favorite. Â
I legit thought the LWO was a spot on parody created by clever internet dwellers to mock the overproliferation of _WO's in wrestling. Mind blown! When I found out it was actually a real thing. "Are they even trying anymore?"- 1998 Baker
I watched his famous ECW series with Malenko around the time of the LWO. By then I had seen a bunch of New Style Wrestling. So I was actually a bit underwhelmed after all those years of hype, though I'm sure it would have been a different story had I seen those matches when they originally took place in 95.Â
Eddie came to WWF with the rest of the Radicalz in early 2000. I was excited for two reasons- Losing their best midcard workhorses would surely accelerate the decline of the The Evil Empire. And these guys would be bringing their state of the art wrestling to my beloved WWF. It was win-win in my book. I'll admit to missing those guys during my years-long WCW boycott.
Only it didn't quite workout that way. Nowadays I can respect Eddie (& Benoit) for immediately adjusting to WWF style by shrinking their once massive movesets and concentrating on just a few trademark spots to pop the crowd. But I hated it at the time. See, I was a movez guy in 2000. Benoit & Eddie had been huge movez guys in 95-96. Now they were....just regular guys. "Where did all the suplexes, bombs, flying, and state of the art submissions go?"- 2000 Baker
Eddie had clearly found some charisma during our time apart. But it was the "wrong kind" of charisma. I found Eddie, much like fellow WCW defector Jericho, highly annoying. He just got on my nerves. Couldn't stand him. Hated the endless Chyna stuff. Eddie quickly became one of my least favorite things about 2000 WWF. Hell, he was one of the only things I didn't like in 2000 WWF. He left the company shortly after Wrestlemania 17 and I can't say I was sad to see him go.
Eddie did the indie thing for a year while getting his life together. Think I only saw him in ROH during this run. What really stood out to me about Eddie's ROH run was how massive he was compared to the ROH regulars. He dwarfed them in much the same manner Scott Norton would have dwarfed Eddie back in 95-96 WCW.
Eddie made his way back to WWF immediately following Wrestlemania 18. Then the brand split happened. I distinctly remember fantasy booking an Eddie/D'Lo feud over the Frog Splash with D'Lo going over to begin rebuilding him. That's where I rated Eddie in 2002- a guy doing midcard jobs to D'Lo. I was just a little wrong on this one.Â
Instead of putting over D'Lo, Eddie got a feud with newly christened IC Champ RVD. This was whatever. Hopefully they'd at least have a good match before RVD won the first feud of his bound-to-be-legendary year+ long IC Title run. WHAT!?!?! Eddie just beat RVD!?!?!? SHIT! FUCK! WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE!?!
Rage! I was appalled. Stupid Eddie Guerrero just beat RVD?!? Death to WWE!
I can pinpoint the exact moment Eddie started clicking with me. It was a few months after the RVD debacle during Eddie's (inexplicable to 2002 me) feud with Steve Austin. They were in a bar. Eddie was sitting by himself in the corner looking shady as can be. In that one moment "King of Sleaze" Eddie Guerrero finally started connecting with me.Â
Speaking of the "King of Sleaze," it wasn't until 2001 or 2002 that I first saw his famous Halloween Havoc '97 match with Rey. That's definitely a Top 5 WCW match of the 90s in my book.Â
Eddie then got drafted to Smackdown where he formed an internet dream team alongside Angle & Benoit. I was now officially an Eddie Guerrero Fan. Eddie/Chris/Kurt were the 3 darlings of the 'net, with many calling them the 3 best wrestlers in the world. Eddie and his mates were killing it every week. They triple handedly gave Rey & Edge credibility. Eddie would do the same for Chavo a little while later. Smackdown now became must see tv.
The Holy Trinity had some great tags and 6 man matches. Eddie & Edge had that great No DQ match on the 'down. Los Guerreros were a hoot in skits, and a good match machine in the ring. I guess they had done the whole "Lie, Cheat, Steal" thing in WCW, but it was brand new to me, and I lapped it all up. I actually liked Chavo at the time, but Eddie was the clear star of the duo. Eddie would come up with entertaining new cheats every week the way he had once come up with cool new moves every week. And even the cool moves were back! The Lasso From El Paso says hello. Eddie was a performer at the top of his game....
For about 8-10 months. I started losing interest when Tajiri subbed in for Chavo. Eddie's shtick just started wearing thin with me around that time. And once again I can pinpoint another exact moment of a turn. Eddie was wrestling either Billy or Holly in the US Title Tournament. They were playing hot potato with a chair....again. I think I actually yelled at my TV "Just hit the guy already! It's not funny anymore!" With that, Eddie was back to being just a (slightly annoying) guy.
Yet his popularity continued to rise with the masses. He beat Brock for the belt. Lots of people loved it. I was conflicted. On one hand, Brock wasn't the champ anymore. So yay! On the other hand, it didn't sit well with me that Eddie got the belt outta nowhere before Benoit when Benoit's quest for a world title had been the defining part of his character for nearly 3 years.
Throw in my natural predilection to root against top babyfaces, and I was back to being an Eddie hater. I realize this sounds insane coming from me of all people, but I also found him "too hammy." Whatever though. The people loved him. The only other post-Attitude Era wrestlers to equal his popularity are late 2000s Jeff Hardy, mid 2010s Daniel Bryan, and I guess CM Punk whenever he was red hot.Â
I was initially intrigued by his heel turn on Rey. The actual turn was great. Evil Eddie had great potential after years of being a hammy babyface. But the Dominic stuff and lack of movez compared to their 90s stuff left me feeling underwhelmed.Â
It was a tragic day in wrestling history when Eddie Guerrero passed away at only 38. History changes in so many ways if Eddie doesn't die young. But that's an even longer post for another day.... #146 Brian Pillman{Spoiler}I first saw Pillman in 1989 NWA. Again, he was just a guy. Very similar to early Lynn and early Eddie when it came to (the lack of) me caring. Either me, my brother, or both of us called him "Bengals pants." I don't recall the exact details, but I distinctly remember "Bengals pants" being a thing.Â
My NWA/WCW viewing was sporadic at best in 1990 and nonexistent in 91-92. Meaning I missed Pillman's Light Heavyweight Title run and feud with Liger entirely. I literally did not know Jushin Liger existed until late 1995.
When I came back to WCW "good guy for life" Bengals Pants had now become a bad guy teaming with Steve Austin in the Hollywood Blondes tag team. I liked The Blondes at first. They were definitely my kind of wrestlers. Real team. Matching outfits. Cool theme. Cool taunt. They checked all the boxes. I definitely popped when they won the tag titles from Steamboat & Douglas.
Then they started feuding with Flair (and Arn). BOO! I turned on 'em hard. The Blondes had become a pair of insufferable jerks.
Now I did respect the Blondes as worthy tag champs, and even liked them for a while, but at no point did I ever think they were this transcendent, all time great tag team. Nor did I think splitting them up was this unforgivable travesty of justice. Nor was I even into their feud, which, as best I can remember, peaked with Colonel Parker being forced to wear a chicken suit.
Pillman's next 2 years are a forgettable blur. He feuded with the Mongolian Mauler for a few weeks and....umm.....yeah. He was basically Jerry Lynn during Lynn's first 18 months in ECW. Pillman could have been gone for a year and I doubt I would have noticed.
Pillman finally gets on my radar for good in late '95. First by interfering in the first ever Flair/Arn match. The commentary team did a great job of selling this as an unforgivable act. So great, in fact, that I totally bought into it as Pillman crossing the line. All of a sudden I hated Flyin' Brian. It all ended up being an elaborate, Rube Goldbergian ruse to trick Sting. The Horsemen were back, baby! But I still didn't really take to Pillman.....
Something about him just rubbed the wrong way. Yeah, he was a Horsemen. But he was also a hyperactive little weirdo. And any good will he may have acquired by simply being a Horsemen evaporated for good when he became the primary reason for my latest WCW hero, Mr. Wonderful, being put on the shelf with a spike piledriver induced injury.
Pillman became increasingly weird over the next few months. I get the impression his whole "Loose Cannon" shtick went way over my head. Think he was in and out of WCW a few times. I believe this is when he started carrying a sweet cane with a horsehead on top. That cane was the coolest thing Pillman had done to date in my book. I wasn't watching the show where Pillman famously said "I respect you, bookerman." to Sullivan. It wouldn't have mattered even if I had been. Simply because I don't think I knew what a booker(man) was yet. "Is Kevin Sullivan a big reader?" or perhaps "Is Kevin Sullivan a library cop?!?" would have been my response depending on when a certain episode of Seinfeld came out. Pillman soon left WCW for good when he "chickened out" of the Doomsday Cage Match.
It was during this time when I realized Pillman was becoming a big deal. I still didn't know WHY, mind you. But I knew he was suddenly a big deal simply because the Apter Mags were pushing him hard. Pillman stories were suddenly all over the mags. I read about his ECW stint. I found out he was playing the Big 3 against each other. I read about his automobile accident that threatened to derail the hottest period of his career. This all culminated in Pillman signing the first ever guaranteed money WWF contract...or something like that.Â
Now I hadn't given two shits about Brian Pillman for the bulk of his nearly 7 year WCW career. But NOW I was suddenly interested in Pillman. The mags were putting him over huge. More importantly, he had finally made his way to my beloved WWF.....
I was a Pillman fan from Day One of his WWF run. They actually announced his signing out of the blue. This was something they never did before. Made it seem like a really big deal. He couldn't wrestle due to injury. Yet he was all over WWF tv for a little while. He'd show up to do a spot of commentary here, a run in there. Commentary would bring him up for no reason at all.
He whacked a Bushwhacker with a crutch this one time and few things will get you on my good side quicker than whacking a Bushwhacker with a crutch. I loved it when Pillman/Austin/Owen formed a little anti-Bret alliance for a few weeks there. They had a great interview segment on one of the In Your House's. I'd have been all in on that stable.Â
Alas! It was not to be. Austin crossed the line when he famously Pillmanized his own best friend on Superstars. I guess I really was a Pillman lover by this point because this turned me hard against Austin. I hated him for years from this moment on. Less than a year earlier Pillman got on my Enemies List by orchestrating Mr. Wonderful's injury and now he was on the receiving end of an even more dastardly deed. Pillman coming back in a few months to get revenge on Austin was $$$.
And it.....sort of happened. Pillman came back as a member of the Hart Foundation. Yay! I liked Pillman. I loved the Foundation. And I shared their mutual loathing of Austin. It seemed like a match made in heaven....
While I continued to like Pillman, the Pillman/Foundation pairing was always an odd one to me. I don't think he ever fully fit in with the rest of the group. Still, I liked Pillman, if only due to his HF association.
It was during this time when I kept hearing about what a "great wrestler" Pillman had been. Now I was even more stoked to see him finally make his in ring debut. I had visions of Pillman having **** and ***** matches with the likes of Austin, Michaels, and perhaps tragically even his Hart Foundation buddies somewhere down the line. My hype for Pillman's in ring debut was through the roof.....
And he shit the bed. Pillman just couldn't go in the ring anymore. Injuries had taken their toll. I honestly thought he was terrible. Like "worst in the company" level of bad. Still, he was a part of my all time favorite match in the Canadian Stampede 10 Man Tag. I also liked this fun heel vs. heel match he had with Owen on Raw.Â
I was already tiring of Pillman by the time the Goldust feud came around. He couldn't go in the ring and was once again back to being a "weirdo." Then tragedy struck when Brian Pillman passed away in a Minneapolis hotel room at the young age of 35.
Over the years I caught up on most of Pillman's hyped NWA/WCW stuff. The Liger matches were ahead of their time in the US. The Blondes really were a top notch heel team. He was the star of War Games 1991. Pillman had some quality bouts with Luger and Flair. There are all sorts of good Brian Pillman matches out there. Definitely a top notch talent. I don't think a lot of the "Loose Cannon" stuff ages well at all, but I guess we can give him some credit for being the first regular breaker of kayfabe. I also think even prime Pillman suffers from Shane Douglas syndrome in that he's a natural heel in persona and interviews but much better in the ring as a babyface.
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Post by Shootist on Aug 22, 2019 1:29:15 GMT
Wow, some heavy hitters here. Guerrero was in my top 20 when we did our favorites list a few years back and Pillman just missed my top 50.
Those Saturday Night and Nitro matches between Benoit and Guerrero in 1995 is a good reason for more people to check out this period of WCW. Benoit's powerbomb on Guerrero from Nitro is still the GOAT powerbomb of all time.
One thing about that early 96 Pillman run in WCW that sticks with me was when Bobby Heenan told him to "get the fuck away from me" on a live Clash when Pillman was teasing going after Heenan's injured neck while stalling outside in a match against Eddy Guerrero of all people. His team with Bruce Hart as Bad Company in Stampede is interesting watching back as this was when Pillman was starting to come out of his shell promo wise.
I was also first introduced to Jerry Lynn as JL and he was famous for having Sabu's lone Nitro match (my introduction to Sabu) which was eye opening. Hell of a talent who showed a lot of guts in those matches with RVD, outside of that though you're right, he felt like a jobber.
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Post by 🤯 on Aug 22, 2019 1:55:45 GMT
Whoa. I only really liked Lynn against RVD, and then sometimes in early days TNA. So I get the low ranking for wannabe Randy Ram Robinson. But Eddie and Pillman ooze character. And both had solid in ring bodies of work. So their low ranking? Purely anti-IWC pushback? I support that cause, or at least commiserate; it's why I considered becoming a Kevin Nash fan in 2003... the anti vanilla midget campaign was just too hilarious to RESIST (® / © PB). IWC so fun to spite.
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Post by 🤯 on Aug 22, 2019 2:47:34 GMT
Whoa. I only really liked Lynn against RVD, and then sometimes in early days TNA. So I get the low ranking for wannabe Randy Ram Robinson. But Eddie and Pillman ooze character. And both had solid in ring bodies of work. So their low ranking? Purely anti-IWC pushback? I support that cause, or at least commiserate; it's why I considered becoming a Kevin Nash fan in 2003... the anti vanilla midget campaign was just too hilarious to RESIST (® / © PB). IWC so fun to spite. I think I meant to elaborate more on this and also explain how I kind of commiserate too. But I can't remember what. Also, should've read the spoilers before just reacting to the pictures. You blurbs perfectly written, perfectly explained.
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Post by Kilgore on Aug 22, 2019 3:42:39 GMT
I relate very much to every Baker favorite starting out as basically, "Oh, fuck this guy."
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Post by 🤯 on Aug 22, 2019 4:27:23 GMT
I relate very much to every Baker favorite starting out as basically, "Oh, fuck this guy." Once upon a time I thought you and Baker were in such lockstep that stuff like this still surprises me. Maybe it has something to do with you both writing excellent WCW revisionist histories and me just merging in my mind Baker-man's 1993-1994 with your 1997-1998 into one continuous same universe timeline.
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Post by Kilgore on Aug 22, 2019 4:37:47 GMT
I relate very much to every Baker favorite starting out as basically, "Oh, fuck this guy." Once upon a time I thought you and Baker were in such lockstep that stuff like this still surprises me. Maybe it has something to do with you both writing excellent WCW revisionist histories and me just merging in my mind Baker -man's 1993-1994 with your 1997-1998 into one continuous same universe timeline. I think my tastes are very '90s conventional internet opinion with a few oddballs here and there whereas Baker's tastes are in its own wonderful universe.
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Post by RT on Aug 22, 2019 5:05:38 GMT
Wow that is shockingly low for Eddie Guerrero. He'd be in my top 25 more than likely.
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Post by Baker on Aug 23, 2019 0:04:09 GMT
Bring the heat, PW. It's ok. I can take it.
However, I am gonna quote something I wrote at the very beginning of this project when I was setting the parameters..... You can say my "This is my opinion and there's nothing you can do about it!" approach is the coward's way out. Fair enough. But whatever you think of the list, you can't criticize me of failing to (over)explain things. And believe me, I did more than enough arguing with myself over the order that I'm kind of argued out anyway. Still not satisfied with it to be honest. I never will be. Just found a wrestler in the Top 140 who belongs 40-50 spots lower, for example. But I'm probably not even gonna change it this time around.
Besides, at least Eddie & Pillman made the cut! You'd be shocked to see all big stars, legends, and well respected internet darlings who did not. When I finish this in 2022 or whenever I'm gonna post another quick list of all the greats who didn't even place. It'll likely be a far more marketable list than my actual 200. Probably more wrestlers on it too:lol:
I might do one more tonight. But only one. Not really in the mood. I'll drop a few hints about the next 5 though....
The next wrestler is another well-respected legend, albeit one from another era and with a completely different style than the 3 wrestlers from the last batch. Then comes an early ROH star who went on to have a 'meh' WWE career imo. Then it's the lesser halves of two popular tag teams. And finally yet another monster heel from my childhood.
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Post by bodyslam on Aug 23, 2019 2:05:46 GMT
Chris Adams's main feud in WCCW was with Kevin Von Erich but if any of you get a chance watch the match against Kerry. No clue about the date but it was on the TV show. While I don't remember Adams being a big deal for Watts his feud with Terry Taylor is worth checking out.
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Post by Baker on Aug 23, 2019 4:17:27 GMT
#145 Jake "The Snake" Roberts"Oh, fuck this guy."- Me 1987 to 1991 What kind of so-called good guy drapes a snake over his unconscious opponent? I can see committing such a dastardly deed against a guy who blinded you, or smashed his guitar over your head. Heat of battle....Tensions running high. OK. Fair enough. But what did Dusty Wolfe ever do to you, pal? The man is just trying to earn a living so he can feed his family, dammit! So I was not a Jake fan as a kid. I just lumped him in with other B Tier babyface stars like Duggan, Beefcake, and Piper (with Hogan, Warrior, and sometimes Savage being the A Tier babyface stars). If pressed, I'd admit Jake was a tiny bit better than his B Tier babyface contemporaries just because he had the DDT and popularized the concept of a setup move with his Rainmaker....err.....short-armed clothesline. But Jake was most certainly not a Baker Guy. I didn't think he was particularly creepy either. I mean, he obviously was. I just explained why with the whole snake thing. But it never registered with me that he was supposed to be a darker and edgier babyface. Nor was I sitting around being enthralled by Jake Roberts promos. Again, maybe they just went over my head? He didn't look like much of a badass either. Like most 80s WWF stars, Jake was more of a feud man than a great match guy. He had memorable feuds with Honky, Rude, and The Model. He also feuded with Andre and Dibiase but I literally forgot those feuds existed for like 20 years. My favorite Jake match up to this point was the Blindfold Match with Martel, which I thought was brilliant as a kid even if my guy lost. Where Jake got over with me was in the culmination of those skits where he was training Warrior to conquer the darkside to prepare The Ultimate One for his battles with Undertaker. The first few were just weird. WCW gets a lot of unjustified criticism for their awesome mini-movies. Well, this was WWF doing their own mini-movies years before WCW took the concept to the next level. I wasn't really buying Jake as this Master of the Dark Arts all of a sudden. Even kiddie me was like "Where did this come from?" But it was all worth it for the climax in the final installment where Jake locked Warrior in a casket and The Undertaker appeared like something out of a monster movie. It was great. Legit swerve. Legit "Holy Shit" moment. Pretty sure my jaw dropped for real. This made my Greatest Heel Turns list when UT ran that countdown. Probably pretty damn high too. I had only known Jake as a good guy. So this turn blew my mind. Undertaker was already my favorite wrestler so Jake got major association points. Plus I hated The Warrior. So more points to Jake. It all ended with Jake uttering the immortal words- "Trust Me." That would become his catchphrase. Jake Roberts would be a world class heel over the next few months. Honestly one of the best I had seen up to that point. He crossed the line so many times during the Savage feud. A lot of that stuff sticks out in my mind to this day in much the same way as Berzerker trying to stab Undertaker. The wedding present.....the snake biting Savage (which caused my friend Dan to be banned from watching wrestling when his mom happened to walk in at that very moment). Even as a young, apparently morally bankrupt heel fan, I would shake my head like "Man, that's messed up." But I still didn't turn on Jake. He got the Warrior sooooo good! Like you guys don't even know. The footage, great as it may be, doesn't do it justice. You had to be there following Jake's career for over 4 years to really appreciate the impact. So Jake was a Baker Guy..... Until he turned on Taker. That was one step too far. This was another great angle btw which made my list for UT's Face Turn Countdown. Pretty sure it was my #1 in fact. Speaking of #1's, Jake was now public enemy #1. I wanted Taker to (kayfabe) kill him at Wrestlemania VIII. And that's pretty much what happened. Jake then went to WCW for a feud with Sting. Iirc their big match actually drew a really good buyrate for the time. But I wouldn't learn of Jake's WCW run for another 3+ years and have never actually seen it. As was the case for basically every wrestler other than Mr. Perfect, Jacques Rougeau, Ludvig Borga, and Jeff Jarrett, it was a case of "out of sight, out of mind" in regard to Jake Roberts from Wrestlemania VIII-Royal Rumble 96. I wasn't a wrestling nostalgic back then. Wrestling was too good to be looking backwards. And Jake wasn't a guy I would have been particularly nostalgic about anyway. I hated his 1996 WWF comeback. Thought he was an out of shape relic who belonged in WCW or AWF with all the other old farts. He was everything the New Generation was supposedly railing against. I suppose I have to give him credit for inspiring a famous Steve Austin line, and the feud with Lawler was fun because of Lawler, but he was definitely one of my least favorite wrestlers that year. I was not sad to see him go after a one year run which saw him huff and puff his way around WWF rings while clinging to a dated finisher that had long become just another mid-match move. Jake was another guy who was waaaaay more popular on the internet than he ever was with me. As much as I loved his 91-92 heel run, I had no nostalgia for him, and never thought of him as a legend unless "legend" just means "old." He never even won a title! Of all the wrestlers rumored to be the Higher Power, Jake was the one I was least excited about. I was all "Please not Jake. Please not Jake. Please not Jake." while watching the big payoff episode. Still think it would have been terrible, by the way. Jake Roberts with a live mic every week during the Attitude Era would have been such a trainwreck. After all, this is a guy who just a few months later bragged about getting 22 in Blackjack. In closing, Jake is another guy, not unlike Eddie & Pillman, who had a long and storied career, yet really only clicked with me for a short period of time. He really was awesome during that short time though. The turn on Warrior....the alliance with Taker....the Savage feud....even the Taker feud. Great stuff! Plus the DDT was THE move right before I got into wrestling. He also deserves credit for popularizing the concept of a setup move. His promos influenced Raven and probably many others. Jake explained in a shoot that he intentionally spoke quietly to force fans to pay attention to what he was saying. I thought that was very clever.
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Post by bodyslam on Aug 23, 2019 14:14:40 GMT
Jake's Mid-South run was great. The Barbarian (Nord) turn is classic. The stuff with Slater and Dark Journey is great as well.
While Jake was over he was no where near as over as the DDT.
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Post by Ness on Aug 23, 2019 20:53:58 GMT
Love the Eddy write-up. I wasn't in love with him right away and found his quite annoying as Latino Heat in that annoying younger brother way and not endearing like Owen. Didn't grow to like him until a little after his WWE title win and of course then it was too late...
But I did grow to appreciate his earlier work. Great choice for Pillman image too. I've seen it once or twice.
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Post by 🤯 on Aug 23, 2019 22:46:42 GMT
Funny enough, my FAVORITE Eddie period was the Latino Heat romance with Chyna.
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Post by Big Pete on Aug 26, 2019 16:08:23 GMT
The Eddie Guerrero ranking is right, Baker has notoriously been down on Latino Heat, even with Lawler's best attempt at trying to pump him up. That was a shocking revelation...in 2012 but Bake has been pretty open since about how down on Eddie he was until the SmackDown Six era. Even then, I never got the sense he was a huge fan of that period. Just more of a begruding respect than anything else. If you could pull a great match out of Edge (is he a Top 10 Most Hated given what he did to Matt?) then you're worth some respect. Even then, I recall Bake being pretty lukewarm on the Survivor Series 2002 bout which was considered one of his best matches of that era.
Personally I fall into a similar category. I didn't hate Eddie or anything, he was just that Val Venis-level worker for me. A completely acceptable mid-card wrestler, but there was never any period from 1999-01 where I found myself excited to watch him wrestle. It was a testament to his comeback that he was able to change so many minds. In hindsight, I don't mind the Latino Heat stuff. It gave him some much needed personality, which had been his achilles heel for so long. It also easily brought out the best in Chyna, which is pretty incredible considering she'd been sleeping with HHH for years and never really shined outside of being a female security guard.
Still the most accurate list in PW history. Outside of the Disco Inferno tom-foolery, this list has been spot on.
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Post by Baker on Aug 27, 2019 23:57:31 GMT
Taking a break from this. Don't know how long this hiatus will last. I promise to post the entire list even if I don't come back to writing blurbs. I got burned out about 4 or 5 nights ago when I started writing the latest entry. It was already longer than Disco's blurb. And I hadn't even gotten beyond Phase One (albeit the most important phase) of this particular wrestler's career. I slipped in 3 impromptu Match Reviews and a positive rant about an opponent from one of those matches who I normally didn't even like. At some point I was like "What the hell am I doing with my life?" So I took a break from writing and now I'm a Buddhist* down on Eddie he was until the SmackDown Six era. Even then, I never got the sense he was a huge fan of that period. Just more of a begruding respect than anything else. If you could pull a great match out of Edge (is he a Top 10 Most Hated given what he did to Matt?) then you're worth some respect. Even then, I recall Bake being pretty lukewarm on the Survivor Series 2002 bout which was considered one of his best matches of that era. Still the most accurate list in PW history. Outside of the Disco Inferno tom-foolery, this list has been spot on. Great post. But I really was very high on late 02-early 03 Eddie and the Smackdown Six era as a whole, though I suppose I became a Smackdown lover a little earlier than most, and also went off it a little earlier than most. Still, late 2002-early 2003 Smackdown is my favorite wrestling TV since 2000. I'll cover Edge more when (if?) his time comes. Basically, like 95% of this list, I was up and down on him over the years. He was a respect rather than love guy during the Eddie feud, though I did think he was on fire from an in ring standpoint. My favorite Eddie/Edge match was the 9/26/02 Smackdown No DQ bout. I was definitely an Edge hater during the Matt feud, and an Edge disliker from his 2004 comeback until about the summer of 2006 when he won me back during the Cena feud. I remember being very disappointed by the Survivor Series 2002 tag match. I guess it was alright but I was expecting another classic along the lines of Angle & Benoit vs. Edge & Rey from No Mercy the previous month. The Survivor Series match never came close to reaching those heights imo. Those guys had better matches just about every week on TV. I actually agree with you about Disco's ranking being the biggest flaw thus far.... He should have been higher. *Did not actually become a Buddhist. But I do think I'll be posting less for at least the next week or so. Other interests are occupying my time at the moment.
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Post by Kilgore on Aug 28, 2019 2:27:29 GMT
I find it hard to reconcile Baker's love for heels but hate for sleazy dirtbag heels. The Baker Paradox. It's real.
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