I really enjoyed the show. I missed the bea priestley match unfortunately.

The only match I would say I didn't enjoy was the womens title, emi just doesn't interest me.

The title match was great, and I bought into mjf throwing in the towel because he was concerned for cody. Super pumped for this feud.

The lights our match was something else. I was shocked they did some of the things they did. Parts of it felt like I was watching some 1995 king of the death match stuff.

Nov 11, 2019 1:14:40 GMT KITN said:

Nov 10, 2019 14:53:19 GMT Todd said:

Kenny Omega is a complete goof. I can't buy one thing this guy does. His facial expressions make me cringe. The match was way over the top. Didn't like it at all.

Average show. As always Cody, Jericho and MJF are the best things about this company.

OK, boomer. 

?

Nov 11, 2019 7:18:48 GMT Todd said:

Nov 11, 2019 1:14:40 GMT KITN said:

OK, boomer. 

?

Only an old person would level (valid) criticisms against AEW. Duh.

Haven't seen the show, but saw the YT clip of Big Daddy Dave and Alvarez saying the match was too over the top and they aren't fans, so now I'm going to check it out. Just gonna pretend in my universe that this is what Mox wanted with Brock till Brock Brocked.

I find Meltzer to be insufferable. 1 of the 10 reasons I feel that way is the guy is fixated with work rate and comparing everything to NJPW. Cowboy shit!

I just finished Omega vs Moxley and thought the entire match was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Was it entertaining? Yes. In the sense that I was laughing at all the stupid shit they were doing to each other for absolutely no purpose. If their goal is to separate themselves from WWE and put on something different, I can't deny that this is one of the best ways to do it, and clearly most of the fans love it, so I can't really criticise it too much. I still think it's really dumb form of entertainment, but I can skip this nonsense in the future. AEW has more than enough to keep me entertained.

Young Bucks vs Proud and Powerful far exceeded expectations. I already know the Bucks can work really well, they just choose not to 90% of the time. But the remaining 10% is gold, and this was no exception. Would have been MOTN on most nights, but not this one.

Todd says Jericho, Cody and MJF are the only entertaining wrestlers in the company? I agree with him a lot of things, but this is not one of them. PAC and Hangman Page are the two best in AEW right now, and they proved it with an absolutely phenomenal match. They created a compelling, dramatic match without going overboard (or, really, going at all) with high spots and near falls. I thought that style of match was a lost art, but I am thankfully proven wrong. That's going near the top of my MOTY list.

Riho vs Sakura sucked. I'm trying to see the positives in Riho, but the more I see of her, the more I struggle.

Cody vs Jericho was pretty good. Probably Jericho's best AEW match. The slow pace didn't affect my enjoyment at all given how competent both men are, but there weren't any real dramatic high points. As soon as MJF revealed he had a towel I knew the match was going to end that way. I also knew the heel turn was coming because spoilers, although I didn't know how it would have been executed. Fairly routine. Like RT, I would have preferred them to hold it off, or not do it at all, but I'm not too unhappy. Although predictable, it's still an interesting direction and I'm intrigued to see where it goes.

Nov 11, 2019 17:59:05 GMT @ness said:

Haven't seen the show, but saw the YT clip of Big Daddy Dave and Alvarez saying the match was too over the top and they aren't fans, so now I'm going to check it out. Just gonna pretend in my universe that this is what Mox wanted with Brock till Brock Brocked.

Honestly, I don't think you even have to pretend. 

Nov 11, 2019 20:01:53 GMT Emperor said:

I just finished Omega vs Moxley and thought the entire match was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Was it entertaining? Yes. In the sense that I was laughing at all the stupid shit they were doing to each other for absolutely no purpose. If their goal is to separate themselves from WWE and put on something different, I can't deny that this is one of the best ways to do it, and clearly most of the fans love it, so I can't really criticise it too much. I still think it's really dumb form of entertainment, but I can skip this nonsense in the future. AEW has more than enough to keep me entertained.

Young Bucks vs Proud and Powerful far exceeded expectations. I already know the Bucks can work really well, they just choose not to 90% of the time. But the remaining 10% is gold, and this was no exception. Would have been MOTN on most nights, but not this one.

Todd says Jericho, Cody and MJF are the only entertaining wrestlers in the company? I agree with him a lot of things, but this is not one of them. PAC and Hangman Page are the two best in AEW right now, and they proved it with an absolutely phenomenal match. They created a compelling, dramatic match without going overboard (or, really, going at all) with high spots and near falls. I thought that style of match was a lost art, but I am thankfully proven wrong. That's going near the top of my MOTY list.

Riho vs Sakura sucked. I'm trying to see the positives in Riho, but the more I see of her, the more I struggle.

Cody vs Jericho was pretty good. Probably Jericho's best AEW match. The slow pace didn't affect my enjoyment at all given how competent both men are, but there weren't any real dramatic high points. As soon as MJF revealed he had a towel I knew the match was going to end that way. I also knew the heel turn was coming because spoilers, although I didn't know how it would have been executed. Fairly routine. Like RT, I would have preferred them to hold it off, or not do it at all, but I'm not too unhappy. Although predictable, it's still an interesting direction and I'm intrigued to see where it goes.

I said best, not only. PAC is fantastic and is arguably the best wrestler I've seen in the last 5 years or so. Page is interesting, he has a lot going for him but there's some star power missing. Good match, probably the best worked match of the night, but it lacked the heat of the Cody/Jericho match.

There's quite a bit on AEW that a get a kick out of tbh. It's just that without those 3 I mentioned standing out, I doubt I would particularly bother.

I don't get how people can say that there was no reason behind the violence in Omega/Moxley or that there was no story. Moxley made it clear when he debuted that he thought he was the best in the world instead of Kenny and that his talents as an actual wrestler were being ignored. Kenny dismissed Moxley as overhyped and a CZW garbage wrestler. Then he further mocked him with Moxley had a serious elbow injury that could have threatened his life, and made fun of him for not winning the G1, calling him unprofessional and a coward for letting his New Japan commitments and his injury interfere with their originally scheduled match.

Furthermore, on AEW Dark, Kenny had that "Lights Out" match with Joey Janela to prove he could go into Moxley's world, even though that wasn't what Moxley wanted, he wanted to prove his abilities and prove that he was the better man, but Omega just kept pushing it and pushing it. Their match was made an unsanctioned match that wouldn't count toward their win-loss record, once again making Moxley feel like he's being pigeonholed.

So, he finally snapped in the match itself. It couldn't have been more clear in the "I am unsanctionable" promo on the Go-Home Dynamite and when Moxley said "You want violence? Let's get fucking violent!" during the match itself. He decided to show them just how violent and insane he was, and it was *Kenny* who kept bringing in the more extreme elements, like the barbed wire spider-web and the bag of broken glass, the broken glass in Moxley's mouth. He wanted to go to Moxley's extremes and prove that he was the best at any kind of wrestling, because he's the best-bout machine, he can do anything, he's the greatest. But in the end, Kenny lost, Kenny ate shit, and he only had himself to blame for the monster he created and the situation he put himself in.

People complain about how WWE treats its fans like idiots, but then complain that things aren't explained when things aren't spelled out for them as explicitly as possible... do you ever think you guys might actually be idiots?

Boy, it's a shame Todd and I can't wrap our tiny little minds around the magnum opus that was Omega/Moxley.

Nov 11, 2019 17:59:05 GMT @ness said:

Haven't seen the show, but saw the YT clip of Big Daddy Dave and Alvarez saying the match was too over the top and they aren't fans, so now I'm going to check it out. Just gonna pretend in my universe that this is what Mox wanted with Brock till Brock Brocked.

Both of them were worked it feels like.  For people who seen Moxley's SMV talk, Moxley does not like getting hurt for the sake of getting hurt.  Everything in the match was gimmicked as hell.  They clipped the wire, clipped down the entire inside of a spiderweb, used flat sugar glass and removed most of the barbs on the bat and mop.  They did a CZW match with only a fraction of the risk.  Dave complained that fans do not realize how gimmicked the stuff was and thinks it will encourage more ultraviolent stuff, but ultraviolent wrestling considers pains of glass and barbwire tame now that razors, syringes and light tubes are all the rage.

So yeah the match was great but the genius was in how safe it was.  When you have guys like Havoc, Mondo, Moxley and Janela who all have done extreme hardcore stuff in the back, it is not hard to get everyone together and figure out how to do the same spots without the risk of serious injuries.  

It is also funny they trash this match but Cody again leaves a body mess with stitches.  If anything Cody is over the top and dangerously so.  Love his work, but this is the second PPV he got a nasty head injury in.


Also not sure why people did not expect hardcore in AEW.  They signed Moxley, a hardcore icon before WWE.  Havoc is another icon of hardcore, as is Allin.  Joey Janela was the third incarnation of Sick Nick Mondo, following where Rory left off.  Hell, Nick himself is backstage doing the promos and was the first person Mox contacted when he decided to leave WWE.  They have a hardcore division, and fans want hardcore wrestling so why would they not have these matches for that demographic?  And frankly what we seen is fairly tame.  Backstage are a few old midwest legends so sooner or later we will see some old school stuff that inspired the Japanese deathmatches.  People forget how bloodly bullrope or bunkhouse matches were.  Get Pac and Hangman with a bullrope and you will see a bloodbath.  One a full card a single blood bath is not a bad idea.  Some will like it, and some wont, but if they give a mix, everyone should leave happy with the overall show.  I would not want another ECW or CZW, but mixing the matches in one per PPV seems like a great idea if balanced with other types of wrestling.

Nov 12, 2019 2:07:05 GMT KJ said:

Boy, it's a shame Todd and I can't wrap our tiny little minds around the magnum opus that was Omega/Moxley.

To be fair you need a high IQ to understand hardcore wrestling...

/rickandmortyfanmode

One thing I do not get is why AEW fans are getting upset that people do not like certain types of wrestling.  The show puts on a mix of styles for a reason.  If you do not like one style, the rest of the matches are generally different styles.  Think people forget what something for everyone shows were like before WWE took over.  Match was great for what it was, but if you do not like hardcore, why would you like it?  I seen fans of hardcore complain about it too, saying it was not bloody enough for them and the gimmicked stuff took away from the match when the guys did not bleed from things like getting dragged in broken glass.  

Also I am seeing more and more people are not fans of Kenny.  If you do not like Kenny, then obviously that match was not for you.

The kayfabe story for Moxley vs Omega was good, I'm not denying that. I just don't understand why wrestlers choose to wrestle those kinda matches and maim themselves in that way. To me, it's dumb. I understand that although it looks nasty, it's very safe and contains less risk than taking 20 head drop bumps a match, but I still don't get it. Most of what I love about pro-wrestling goes away when a match is just "get sharp object. hit opponent with sharp object. slam opponent on sharp objects" ad nauseam. Brutality for the sake of brutality. Not for me.

That is Moxley's gimmick to some extent though. He likes wrestling in a style that breaks all the rules of wrestling. He does the brutality for the sake of it. He likes going to that dark place and hurting people and getting hurt. He also likes to bring others to that place, as this feud showed.

This is who Moxley is. Or at least was. Will have to see what he does going forward as Renee did not see pleased and she is no mark who can just be told, "hey babe it is all fake."

For what it's worth, I think King of the North was referring to an incident on Twitter where somebody said the exact same thing to Alvarez and pissed him off.

It's really interesting to see everybody's reaction to the match. In general it seems like fans were expecting Alpha vs. Omega where there would be some hardcore wrestling, but it would still retain some semblence of a wrestling match. They weren't expecting both guys to push the envelope so far, so the important thing from here is how they capitilise on that shock. I'm curious to see how they'll go with it, whether they'll blow it off like this is a standard AEW PPV match or if Omega will take some time off and sell the brutality of the match, milking the shock value for all it's worth.

Given the build up, this match was exactly what I was expecting. I think a lot of people thought they would be watching Dean Ambrose vs Omega and did not realize that Moxley is a different character with a different style.

I would hope matches like this are PPV only. Do standard hardcore on the show, but save the crazy stuff like this for PPV.

Dave Meltzer has completely backtracked his review after all his fans lost their heads that he gave his honest opinion on something he didn't like. After initially saying he hated it, he now says it was completely fantastic and 'would have been one of the best matches of all time 20 years ago'.

Spineless.

Honestly, that wasn't shit for a deathmatch. I didn't see one light tube, neither guy was bleeding all that much from the face. No cinder blocks, no no bamboo skewers. No syringes. And, again, no light tubes. Not saying a deathmatch *needs* to have those things, or that I even would have wanted to see most of them (other than the light tubes. Think of your favorite wrestling match. Would it have been improved if one of the competitors smashed the other over the head with a light tube? If you said no, you're wrong). But people are clutching their pearls and fainting like Moxley took out a loaded gun and shot Omega in the kneecap.

Where can I read Meltzer's original review?

Nov 12, 2019 22:51:26 GMT Emperor said:

Where can I read Meltzer's original review?

Not so much read, but listen.

Two days later, he did another Observer Radio where he talked about the feedback of the match and admitted despite his own views it was still objectively a great match because it got over with the live audience. He said 20 years ago, he would have enjoyed it since blood and guts wrestling was in vogue, but now it's lost it's luster with him. He also made light of a number of factors that ruined his enjoyment of the match like watching a NJPW show prior, staying up till 1am to watch the match etc.

He also argued that the match was still far from safe and he thinks that defence is total bullshit.

Dave Meltzer has completely backtracked his review after all his fans lost their heads that he gave his honest opinion on something he didn't like. After initially saying he hated it, he now says it was completely fantastic and 'would have been one of the best matches of all time 20 years ago'.

Spineless.

He's really careful with his critiques of AEW. What he was driving at was that 20 years ago he could have enjoyed this match because hardcore wrestling was still a novel concept. Since then, wrestling has evolved and so has his tastes to the point where he just can't derive any enjoyment out of seeing these guys take these crazy bumps. He alludes to Ibushi/Naito from Dominion where both guys took some incredibly dangerous bumps on their neck. Years ago he would have enjoyed it, but now he knows better.