I'd vote the same either way.

Also I'll say this... Austin may have gotten me into wrestling, but DB is responsible for keeping me into wrestling. And like Jericho, he has more good matches than Austin based on his longevity. And unlike Austin DB keeps his promises like when he swore to punch John Cena in the ear.

Jul 3, 2020 18:18:06 GMT @ness said:

I'd vote the same either way.

My list would be radically different from my favorites.

Daniel Bryan (#4)

Daniel Bryan isn't the biggest wrestler. He isn't the strongest wrestler. He isn't the best promo. He doesn't have the best look. Yet he is one of the greatest and most-beloved wrestlers of all time. He has gotten over and succeeded in every single company he's wrestled in, regardless of nation or ring style or fanbase. What's his secret?

He lives and breathes professional wrestling. He understands it, better than almost anyone. He has perfected his in-ring craft. He has perfected the art of working the crowd. Bryan's greatest accomplishment was achieved as an underdog babyface, the typical role for a smaller guy. Yet he has also thrived as a ruthless, vicious heel (believe it or not), a cocky prick, a deranged madman, a white meat babyface. Every character under the sun. He's not the strongest talker, but he always speaks from the heart, and exudes authenticity, which endears people to him, or even turns people against him. You'd think after main eventing Wrestlemania 30, retiring, and miraculously returning years later, that he'd never be booed again, but he made it happen pretty easily. He just cranked the vegan-mother-nature-planet-saving aspect of his personality to the maximum and the world hated him once more. A fresh gimmick, and a highly successful one.

In the ring, there are few better. He excels at almost every aspect of the physical and the mental. He's an exceptional technical wrestler. He has speed and agility. He can fly, but doesn't abuse the ability. He has great strikes, especially kicks. Great seller. Knows ring psychology inside and out. I'd go as far as to say that purely between the ropes, Daniel Bryan is the greatest of all time.

I can't pinpoint the moment I discovered Daniel Bryan or became a fan of his, but I suspect it was around the same time I discovered KENTA, on the Fight Network. Not only did that channel show NOAH, ROH was a frequent guest, and I must have witnessed Brian Danielson there at some point. About a decade ago I found a collection of almost all his ROH Title Defenses and watched them all. Almost every match a classic, even against subpar talent like Roderick Strong, who at the time had a pretty lousy reputation.

Most of the matches stood out in some way, because Danielson wrestled a different match against each opponent, and often different matches against the same opponent. He had a match against Nigel McGuinness (not the beloved Unified), where he spent something like the first 20 minutes working a side headlock. It would never work in WWE, but he would never try that in WWE. It was an amazing way to rile up an audience conditioned on workrate. Of course, Danielson had to be a good enough worker to not make it as boring as it sounds, and it wasn't. Every second was mesmerising. There was another defense against Colt Cabana that went the full 60 minutes. Nobody thought Cabana stood a chance, so lasting with Danielson that long was an achievement in itself, but every second of the match was completely believable, and it has one of the most dramatic finishing sequences I've ever seen.

Those are just two of many anecdotes I could provide on why I think he's the GOAT between the ropes. As we all know, he turned out to be an amazing sports entertainer too, proving that he's more than just a ring general. He's a pro-wrestling general.

Great post by Emperor on Daniel Bryan.

Even Stone Cold Steve Austin has MULTIPLE PW detractors. Was not expecting that. Love it though. No sacred cows here on PW. I'm curious to find out which one of you is anti our #1. Given our track record, I just know somebody here will be a hater. 

Speaking of Stone Cold, forgot to mention the classic "Bedpan McMahon" segment. That's gotta be my favorite skit from Austin's peak.

Probably not going to do the final update tonight. Want to work on my fanfic draft card. That'll give everybody an extra day to cover Bryan & Stone Cold if they are so inclined. 

BUT I will finally finish updating the big list on the first page of this thread. All 291 names with votes and point totals will be up within the hour.

Jul 3, 2020 18:10:48 GMT Shootist said:

Jul 3, 2020 13:14:54 GMT KING KID said:

We really should just let the cat out of the bag and do a greatest list sometime to really see the fur fly on the board.

I'm tempted to run this just for the petty bickering which would no doubt ensue. Tell ya what. Maybe later this year if the interest is there. Grab some popcorn when the time comes. My GOAT list would also look a lot different than my favorites list.

Even though I overuse the hell out of "GOAT this" and "GOAT that" shorthand, I'm not really a big fan of GOAT lists/debates. Different people have different criteria. Plus there is just so much I haven't seen. I'm pretty good when it comes to one specific era- 1983ish-2008ish US wrestling. That's it. I've seen little after that and even less from before. I haven't seen much from Japan and almost nothing at all from Mexico, Europe, or anywhere else. 

Although I love pissing and moaning about greatest wrestlers as much as the next poster, I have no desire to submit a greatest wrestler list or debate criteria. Mind-numbingly boring.

We all know the answer anyway. Hogan and Austin win, everybody else can suck a dick.

Emperor, is right.

FYI:

1- Austin
2- Hogan
3- HBK
4- Flair
5- Undertaker

IMO.

Jul 3, 2020 23:46:52 GMT Baker said:

Great post by Emperor on Daniel Bryan.

Even Stone Cold Steve Austin has MULTIPLE PW detractors. Was not expecting that. Love it though. No sacred cows here on PW. I'm curious to find out which one of you is anti our #1. Given our track record, I just know somebody here will be a hater. 

Speaking of Stone Cold, forgot to mention the classic "Bedpan McMahon" segment. That's gotta be my favorite skit from Austin's peak.

Probably not going to do the final update tonight. Want to work on my fanfic draft card. That'll give everybody an extra day to cover Bryan & Stone Cold if they are so inclined. 

BUT I will finally finish updating the big list on the first page of this thread. All 291 names with votes and point totals will be up within the hour.

Jul 3, 2020 18:10:48 GMT Shootist said:

We really should just let the cat out of the bag and do a greatest list sometime to really see the fur fly on the board.

I'm tempted to run this just for the petty bickering which would no doubt ensue. Tell ya what. Maybe later this year if the interest is there. Grab some popcorn when the time comes. My GOAT list would also look a lot different than my favorites list.

Even though I overuse the hell out of "GOAT this" and "GOAT that" shorthand, I'm not really a big fan of GOAT lists/debates. Different people have different criteria. Plus there is just so much I haven't seen. I'm pretty good when it comes to one specific era- 1983ish-2008ish US wrestling. That's it. I've seen little after that and even less from before. I haven't seen much from Japan and almost nothing at all from Mexico, Europe, or anywhere else. 

I've been kind of burnt out on posting something on everyone. I just don't feel inspired to even do a two paragraph ode to Chris Jericho. He would have been number 51 on my list for those who care. I figured the scale would be tipped too far in his favor since he's the new shiny WWE competition toy. I'll probably just post my top 50 once #1 is revealed. I should have saved my 2014/15 entries from our last list and did the old cut and paste.

I do have some blind spots for wrestling history (Europe and to a lesser extent Mexico) but know enough that El Santo was a folk hero in Mexico and deserves a very high ranking. Plus I also know that Gorgeous George who I have maybe seen two matches of ushered in the modern pro wrestler and deserves an automatic top 10 spot on my GOAT list anyway. I could take or leave actually doing a list since many are against it.

Jul 4, 2020 5:24:54 GMT Shootist said:

I do have some blind spots for wrestling history (Europe and to a lesser extent Mexico) but know enough that El Santo was a folk hero in Mexico and deserves a very high ranking. Plus I also know that Gorgeous George who I have maybe seen two matches of ushered in the modern pro wrestler and deserves an automatic top 10 spot on my GOAT list anyway. I could take or leave actually doing a list since many are against it.

I know the history well enough. At least when it comes to the big stuff. It's just that I have trouble rating things I haven't seen, or have only seen extremely small sample sizes of.

It's looking like a no go on the GOAT countdown. It wasn't going to happen for months anyway. I started coming up with a list tonight just for the heck of it. Made it to 12 before getting bored. Then I got distracted by something else.

#1 will be posted tomorrow evening.

#1 Bret Hart
16 Votes-718 Points
Four #1 Votes
Last Time: #1

And STILL.........

While he wouldn't have been my choice, it's cool that he won both times around.

I like a lot of Bret matches for sure and if he couldn't have a second run like Shawn perhaps it's better his days were cut short so he didn't embarrass himself. Then again he still had that match with Vince.

Vs. Piper @ 8
Vs. Owen @ 10
Vs. Austin (both)
Vs. Taker (ONO, SS... I'm sure there are others)
Vs. Benoit (Owen Tribute)
Vs. Perfect (SS, KOTR)
Vs. Shawn (SS is a little underrated given the finish)
Final Four

Still though Bret, pink tights. What the hell is that all about Bret? This ain't no ballet class.

*Figured there was no need to further delay the inevitable. Everybody knew Bret was #1. If I had planned it better, and not promised to be finished by the 4th of July, I'd have dropped Bret on Canada Day, or better yet the anniversary of Canadian Stampede. Oh well.

PW agrees with Bret's claim of being "The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be." He is now a two time winner of PW's Favorite Wrestler Countdown. And it wasn't even close this time around.

Bret took the lead no later than the 5th voter and never looked back. About halfway through the voting stage he had accumulated a landslide lead of 50+ points. That lead extended to over 100 points for quite some time. In fact, Bret had a whopping 147 point lead over the runner up until the very last voter.

Bret finished 99 points above #2 Daniel Bryan, 154 points higher than #3 Steve Austin, and 209 points over #4 Chris Jericho. Bret tied for the leader in overall votes with 16, and had the most first place votes with 4. Nobody else had more than 2. Bret also had an impressive 14 Top Ten votes. Only eight other wrestlers received 14 votes, period.

To sum it all up, this was a runaway for The Hitman.

Jul 4, 2020 17:50:18 GMT Baker said:

*Figured there was no need to further delay the inevitable. Everybody knew Bret was #1. If I had planned it better, and not promised to be finished by the 4th of July, I'd have dropped Bret on Canada Day, or better yet the anniversary of Canadian Stampede. Oh well.

PW agrees with Bret's claim of being "The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be." He is now a two time winner of PW's Favorite Wrestler Countdown. And it wasn't even close this time around.

Bret took the lead no later than the 3rd voter and never looked back. By the halfway point he had accumulated a landslide lead of 50+ points. That lead extended to over 100 points for quite some time. In fact, Bret had a whopping 147 point lead over the runner up until the very last voter.

Bret finished 99 points above #2 Daniel Bryan, 154 points higher than #3 Steve Austin, and 209 points over #4 Chris Jericho. Bret tied for the leader in overall votes with 16, and had the most first place votes with 4. Nobody else had more than 2.

Basically, this was a runaway for The Hitman.

Or even better yet, his birthday which was July 2.

All hail Bret St. Albert! (or whatever he was called by @maskedotter)


1. Bret Hart
2. Sting
3. Ric Flair
4. Ricky Steamboat
5. Vader
6. Terry Funk
7. Jake Roberts
8. Owen Hart
9. Jushin Liger
10. Taz
11. Sabu
12. Kenta Kobashi
13. Eddie Guerrero
14. Mitsuharu Misawa
15. Randy Savage
16. Rick Rude
17. Curt Hennig
18. RVD
19. Dynamite Kid
20. Steve Austin
21. Mick Foley
22. Scott Steiner
23. Kurt Angle
24. Stan Hansen
25. Barry Windham
26. Bam Bam Bigelow
27. Undertaker
28. Ultimate Warrior
29. Arn Anderson
30. Raven
31. Tommy Dreamer
32. Brock Lesnar
33. Great Muta
34. Brian Pillman
35. Dusty Rhodes
36. Scott Hall
37. The Rock
38. Shawn Michaels
39. Rey Mysterio
40. Toshiaki Kawada
41. Dean Malenko
42. Paul Orndorff
43. Shane Douglas
44. Trish Stratus
45. 2 Cold Scorpio
46. Magnum TA
47. Lex Luger
48. Bruiser Brody
49. Jimmy Snuka
50. Masa Chono

St. Bret dé Alberta, so holy his bowels don't move for weeks at a time.

The best there is, was, and ever will be.

Consistently excellent.

Jul 3, 2020 11:49:35 GMT 🤯 said:

1 .) Brock Lesnar
2 .) Bull Nakano
3 .) Yuji Nagata
4 .) Nick Aldis
5 .) PW's Favorite Wrestler
6 .) Tajiri
7 .) Jazz
8 .) Kurt Angle
9 .) Chris Benoit
10 .) Sean Waltman
11 .) Santino Marella
12 .) Molly Holly
13 .) Taz(z)
14 .) SID!!~
15 .) Low Ki
16 .) Umaga
17 .) Batista
18 .) The Miz
19 .) Zicky Dice
20 .) Awesome Kong
21 .) Shibata Katsuyori
22 .) John Bradshaw Layfield
23 .) The Undertaker
24 .) Shawn Michaels
25 .) Shayna Baszler
26 .) Eddie Guerrero
27 .) William Regal
28 .) Matt Hardy
29 .) Owen Hart
30 .) Goldust
31 .) Triple H
32 .) The Rock
33 .) Steve Austin
34 .) Vince McMahon
35 .) Shane McMahon
36 .) Stephanie McMahon
37 .) Jeff Hardy
38 .) Christian
39 .) Victoria
40 .) Ryback
41 .) The Hurricane
42 .) Taka Michinoku
43 .) Hardcore Holly
44 .) Perry Saturn
45 .) Mark Henry
46 .) Sheamus
47 .) Test
48 .) Albert
49 .) Funaki
50 .) Jamie Noble


So underrated

Jul 3, 2020 11:49:35 GMT 🤯 said:

4 .) Nick Aldis
5 .) PW's Favorite Wrestler

I...I don't understand. How can you have Slick Nick at #4 and #5?

Jul 5, 2020 2:29:36 GMT Baker said:

Jul 3, 2020 11:49:35 GMT 🤯 said:

4 .) Nick Aldis
5 .) PW's Favorite Wrestler

I...I don't understand. How can you have Slick Nick at #4 and #5?

Must've counted his run as Magnus as a different person.

Bret Hart was my favorite wrestler until SCSA came along. Still don’t think he could cut a promo.

I just realised I've only ever seen one Bret Hart match and it was against The Miz!

Jul 5, 2020 20:27:08 GMT @aaron said:

I just realised I've only ever seen one Bret Hart match and it was against The Miz!

This might be an even more impressive feat than Lionheart knowing Sting only from Sting's TNA run.

To finally put that criticism of Lionheart's knowledge to bed, does it not just make perfect sense to only know someone for this if this was something they had done?

I rest my case.

Oh, is this list done now? I couldn't keep up. I am sure there were tons of people I wanted to post about but no time ever cleared up. Oh well.

My hypothetical posts are lost forever just like my G1 commentary.

Daniel Bryan- I'm mostly familiar with his early indie/ROH run- 2001-2005ish. Haven't seen much of his stuff after that. Just a handful of indie/ROH matches and an equally low number of WWE matches.

D-Bry did not make my list. I just never really connected with him. In fact, I usually rooted against Danielson when I saw him live back in his ROH/indie days. He had no hook in those days. He was just another bland good wrestler guy in a promotion full of them. To his credit, Bryan would later answer every criticism I ever had of him, and then some.

I knew of The American Dragon (and Spanky) very early on in his career due to being a Shawn Michaels student. HBK's inaugural class generated a lot of internet buzz before any of those guys ever even had a match. Bryan himself considers Regal (and others) to be more of a mentor than Michaels, but being trained by HBK did open doors for Bryan that wouldn't have otherwise been available. Due to Shawn's influence, Bryan got booked in Japan for FMW, and landed a WWF Developmental Contract as a 5'8 160 pound teenager who couldn't even legally buy beer. 

His big breakout performance came in the 2001 ECWA Super 8 after he was released from his WWF Developmental deal. His match(es) with Low Ki changed indie wrestling, and even mainstream US wrestling in time. Yet I was NOT a fan of the Ki/Bryan matches. In fact, I kind of hated them- the longer ones in particular. Odds are they simply went way over my head at the time.

The first time I actually saw Bryan wrestle was in the Delaware-based ECWA promotion circa late 2001. I was in the building for a pair of excellent tag matches he had there teaming with Ki. 

Bryan was also a founding father of ROH, appearing in the famous 3 Way main event on their very first show. Bryan did his thing for a few years- having good/great matches on the regular, as he was always a good/great wrestler. Many of these matches I saw live. But I thought he sucked at every other aspect of wrestling. Yes, I was one of the naysayers. I thought he was, well, kind of boring. Let's look at a few of my criticisms....

1. "He's too small." His size was fine for the workrate indies he competed in. But "he'll never be a WWE star!" More on that later....
2. "He has a terrible look." He looked like a pale high school geek with a bad haircut. Don't even get me started on the ugly red sweatpants he wrestled in.
3. "His style is too niche." As I mentioned, the Ki matches were too niche even for me, and I watched a ton of wrestling in the early 2000s.
4. "His matches drag on tape." He was 2nd to only Chris Hero when it came to dragging matches out 5 minutes longer than they needed to be.
5. "He has no charisma." He got better. A lot better. 
6. "He can't talk." Bryan himself admitted this in a promo on an early ROH show, which actually worked in an "aww shucks" babyface sort of way.

As I mentioned earlier, Bryan would eventually answer all these criticisms while still remaining true to himself.

1. Size didn't matter much anymore when he finally did make it to WWE years later. Plus he always kept himself in good shape.

2. While his gear always remained blah, he turned this negative into a positive years later by making the beard his thing. Then there was the Jedi robe he occasionally wore in ROH.

3. He changed his style as he went on. He was always eager to step outside his comfort zone. "He can't brawl!" was another accusation leveled at him by myself and others. So he lobbied for Gabe to put him in a heated feud with Homicide (and others) to prove he could indeed brawl. He later went to Gabe again when he was ROH Champ, lobbying to defend the title against guys like Brad Armstrong & Kamala so he could further expand his horizons. Gabe didn't go for it, but I appreciated Bryan's willingness to try new things. WWE Bryan wrestled nothing like the Bryan I had watched for years in ROH/Indies.

4. Eh. His matches still dragged on tape   Most of my favorite D-Bry matches were bouts I saw live. I assume this stopped being an issue in WWE.

5. LOL He ended up being one of the most charismatic wrestlers of his generation. Early Bryan was definitely dull. But by mid 2004 he was already showing signs of a personality. Rick Rude hip swivel~!

6. By all accounts he turned into a good/great mic worker during his WWE stint (if not before then). 

In one of the PW News threads I dropped a Baker's Dozen list of my favorite Bryan matches.

I quit watching ROH regularly right around the time Bryan won their title. I want to make it clear Bryan winning the ROH Championship was NOT the reason I stopped watching. That would be stupid. Bryan becoming their champ was a perfectly sound, logical decision. He was a founding father of the promotion who had been in title contention for years and his time had finally come. It's just that I had other things going on in my life and no longer had the time or desire to follow much non-WWE wrestling.

Anyway, while Bryan never truly clicked with me, he did connect with millions of other wrestling fans. My generation had Mick Foley. While their styles are completely different, I see Bryan as the "Mick Foley" of his generation. Like Foley, he was not the prototypical WWE Superstar. Yet he scratched and clawed his way up from the bushes to become a beloved figure in WWE. People were genuinely invested in Bryan and his matches. He got super over, emerged victorious in the main event of a Wrestlemania, and became the most popular wrestler in WWE since......2002 Hulk Hogan, probably.

Bryan did not make my favorites list. But I'd have to put him on a GOAT list for the reasons I stated + versatility, longevity, and a bunch of other factors. Incredibly, the most popular wrestler of his generation would later get over as a heel AFTER a retirement which broke a lot of hearts. I mean, he checks all the boxes. The only question pertaining to Bryan on a GOAT list is not whether he belongs, but just how high would he finish?

Bonus Points for using my dream wrestling theme since 1998 in Europe's Final Countdown.....which he STOLE....like a THIEF.

It's also worth noting his "YES!" catchphrase was so over that it became well-known even outside of the wrestling bubble.

*Gonna cover Bret tomorrow on the 23rd anniversary of Canadian Stampede. Then it's time to finally move on from the longest lasting countdown in PW history.

Bret and Austin are my GOATs, I can live with #1 and #3.

Bret had an advanced understanding of psychology, I think Flair created the greatest formula to have a good match with pretty much everybody, but it was superficial by design (so it could work against anyone), whereas Bret would tailor it perfectly to the opponent, to the feud, to the era. I mean as much as we love early singles Bret and New Generation champ era, the fact that he altered a lot of his style in 1997 basically seeing the Attitude Era coming, knowing he had to change his style with his new character, and then arguably having the greatest in ring year of his career is why I would make the case that he was the in ring GOAT. The fact that that run was basically cut smack in the middle of it is one of the biggest creative tragedies in history. 

Austin is more of the all around GOAT. The look, the promo, the charisma AND the matches with a similarly high IQ on psychology. Going from a sort of technician as Stunning Steve to dramatic brawler as Stone Cold, both to fit the character, and to serve a battered body, is taken for granted. I don't know, an extreme example, but imagine Dolph Ziggler all of a sudden becoming the best brawler in wrestling, like this doesn't happen. 1996-2000 is the most fun I ever had as a wrestling fan, and Austin is on the Mount Rushmore of why. Just the perfect intersection of character, skill and era converging together to help create one half of the biggest wrestling boom of at least the last 50 years, and will probably remain so due to the death of the monoculture. HELL YEAH.

Bret was my #1, because he covers so many bases for me.

As a kid, watching the Hulkamania era through video tapes, I liked him in the Hart Foundation and into the IC realm. He was my favourite of the bits of New Generation that I managed to see in real time. Then when his DVD came out during the beginning of my true smarkiness, it shot him right up, followed by the great autobiography solidifying that. Then, him being arguably the most bitter man in the bitterest business going gives me endless amusement and actually makes him more lovable. Bitter, sour-puss Bret is great.

He gets the nostalgia, he gets the real time greatness, he gets the rewatchability due to how great his matches were and he brings the guffaws with his burying of everything. All hail St. Bret dé Alberta indeed.

Bret wins out as my #1 favourite. He would probably be top 10, definitely top 20, for my greatest list. He would probably be top 100 for greatest stars (but that would require serious amounts of research), which is how it seems people were viewing a greatest list (Emperor saying Hogan might win; Shootist mentioning Gorgeous George).

I know many see favourite and greatest as the same thing, but I separate them. Someone who isn't particularly good can still be a favourite due to time and place or they just tickle your fancy. I would take greatness as who is the best as a combination of their ring work, mic work, charisma, look, all the things that make up a wrestler. Maybe this could be consider the "best" category instead and obviously you can only consider those that you have seen. Then "top stars" or you could call this "greatest" becomes about star power, drawing and influence, and is far more objective than subjective, although still has aspects of interpretation and analysis of numbers and importance. 

*Started writing this last night so it would coincide with the 23rd anniversary of IYH Canadian Stampede. Then the back of my basement flooded. Fun fun fun. Yet still I shall go out in a blaze of glory.... 

11 months after beginning my absurd 200 Favorite Wrestlers project, and 4 months after starting this countdown, it all ends here with the repeat winner of PW's favorite wrestler countdown- Bret "The Hitman" Hart.

**Saved the longest for last. So spoiler tagging this storytime-heavy novella on The Hitman.

16. Bret Hart (#1)

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}
As you can see, I had Bret at a very respectable #16 on my list. Yet I was one of the low votes for "The Hitman." Only 4 posters neglected to vote for him at all. Of the sixteen who did vote for Bret, his low vote was #17. I was the next lowest vote at #16.

Truth is I disliked Bret longer than I liked him when watching in real time. And by more than a 2:1 margin! But his highs, coming a decade apart, were so damn high. Plus his stuff aged like fine wine. So I have no regrets in ranking Bret at a lofty #16 on my list.

The Hart Foundation were my first favorite wrestlers. I had only been watching wrestling for a little over a month when they won the tag titles from the British Bulldogs. This was huge to kiddie me. I've told the story before of how I didn't even fully grasp the concept of championships yet. I just assumed champions were champions....forever? So to see a title actually change hands was a really big deal to my wrestling noob, kiddie self.

Young Baker didn't have a preference between Bret & Anvil. They were both cool. They looked cool. They had cool moves. And they had the coolest manager in Jimmy Hart. My 1987 WWF thread is filled with stories of me hanging on the edge of my seat, just being fully invested in their matches with the Bees, Stallions, and Others. Their stable mate, the Honkytonk Man, soon surpassed them as my #1 favorite, but the Foundation remained strong Baker Guys. I was gutted when they lost their tag titles to stupid Strike Force.

Bret finally started to pull away a little from the Anvil when he got SCREWED by that JERK Bad News Brown at Wrestlemania 4. But not long after that, the Hart Foundation turned on my man Jimmy Hart, and started beefing with my new heroes, the Fabulous Rougeau Brothers. So I turned on the Hart Foundation in return.

It would take a whopping 7 years(!) before I came back around on "The Hitman." 

The Hart Foundation have to be a Top 10 (if not Top 5) team in WWF history. They were together for over 5 years. They had lengthy tag title reigns as both heels and babyfaces. They had a memorable look with the pink & black plus Bret's sunglasses and Anvil's iconic goatee. They also had a cool finisher in the so-called Hart Attack. Yet I spent the next few years rooting against them. Well, with the possible exception of their match/feud with the stupid Nasty Boys.

I've told the story before of how weird I thought it was that Bret was even getting a Summerslam title shot at IC Champ, Mr. Perfect. Bret was still a 'tag team guy' to me, and tag team specialists didn't win singles titles. That's just the way it was in those days. So I was shocked when Bret dethroned Mr. P to win the IC Title. And not in a good way. More like a 'wtf' way.

Bret's IC Title reigns were a big pile of meh to me in real time. Only thing I was really into was his feud with my main man the Mountie. If I had ranked IC Champs up to that point in my fandom, I'd have him closer to the bottom than the top. Yet I long ago did a 180 on Bret as IC Champ and now I rate him as a Top 10 holder of that once-prestigious championship.

Bret as a 2 time IC Champ was the very definition of normalcy compared to Bret winning the WWF Championship outta nowhere from Ric Flair. Turning on Superstars one Saturday morning and hearing one-half of the Hart Foundation was now WWF Champion was maybe the biggest 'wtf' wrestling moment I had experienced up to that point in my fandom. It was like one of those bizarro dreams where you wake up and were like "wtf was that??" Or to put it another way, Bret winning the WWF Championship in 1992 was to me what Jinder Mahal winning the championship was to modern fans. No exaggeration.  

Bret was my first 'midcard' WWF Champion. His PPV matches with Michaels, Razor, and Yoko were more like midcard matches than PPV main events. Bret was a far cry from Hogan & Warrior. He wasn't even Flair or Savage. Hell, he wasn't even Slaughter, who may have been a midcarder going into his WWF Championship run, but one who I instantly bought into as a main eventer the second he beat Warrior. Fairly certain I thought Jack Tunney (who obviously ran WWF) had lost his mind when Bret became WWF Champion out of the blue.

I may have hated Hogan coming out of Wrestlemania IX as the new WWF Champion because Hogan, but at the same time it all seemed perfectly logical to me. He was A Star. Bret was not. 

I finally came around (sort of) on Bret as A Star during his KOTR 93 win and subsequent feud with Jerry Lawler. It's here where Bret finally kinda sorta clicked with me as a top guy. Perhaps because this was his first truly heated feud since becoming a singles star? Anyway, I loved the Bret/Lawler feud. It cracked the Top 10 on my rivalries countdown. Naturally I was backing my man "The King." 

Yet even then I wasn't completely onboard with Bret as THE guy. Because I remember thinking Lex Luger winning the '94 Rumble and going on to defeat Yoko at Wrestlemania was a foregone conclusion. Luger was just much more of A Star to 93-94 Baker. Like him or not, he was ideal WWF Champion material. Bret, not so much. So I was once again confused in a 'wtf' sort of way when Bret tied with Luger to win the '94 Rumble. And the whole time I'm thinking Luger was a lock to come out of WM 10 with the WWF Championship. I'd have bet every single dime I had on Luger leaving Wrestlemania X as the champ.

Truth is I still didn't really 'get' Bret. I just couldn't understand WHY anybody would be into him. He was....kind of boring. And keep in mind the phrase "good wrestler" wasn't even a part of my vocabulary. I personally may not have liked Hogan/Warrior/Luger but it was easy for me to understand why other people did. Bret, not so much. At least not in an "OMG This guy is so awesome!" kind of way. 

Anyway, I tune into Superstars yet again one Saturday morning to discover Bret, rather than Luger, was WWF Champion. OK, that was unexpected. But I just accepted it this time around. WWF had a way of beating me down. And it's not like I was a "Made In The USA" Lex Luger fan anyway. So now I FINALLY accepted Bret as a bona fide top guy.

Loved his all timer of a feud with Owen (Top 5 feud to be sure) and his Baker approved rivalry with Mr. Bob Backlund. Fully accepted Bret as THE guy during his 8 month championship reign in 1994, even if I did root against him.

People rag on Bret spending most of 1995 fighting midcarders, but I was super into his feuds with Hakushi, Lawler, and especially Jean Pierre Lafitte (Isaac Yankem, not so much). 

Also in 1995 I discovered my cousin was a massive wrestling/Bret Hart fan and had a new best friend named Rick who was a huge Bret fanboy as well. They were constantly spewing their pro-Bret propaganda at me. Plus I got into the mags. Both the Apter Mags and WWF Magazine were pushing Bret hard as an all time great. WWF Magazine in particular was pushing Bret hard as THE GOAT (even above turncoat Hulk Hogan!). This steady stream of pro-Bret propaganda started getting through to me. The process only accelerated when I began caring about 'good wrestling' for the first time and rented tapes of all those WWF pay per views I had missed featuring Bret having classic after classic. I was slowly but surely coming around on Bret.....

He was the lesser evil during his feuds with Diesel & HBK. Rooted hard for Bret to beat Diesel when I saw them live at Survivor Series 95. And then he did! Yay! But I was back to rooting against him when he took on Bulldog & Taker at the next two PPVs. Then rooted for him again over Diesel and rooted hard for him to beat new Public Enemy #1 HBK at Wrestlemania. He didn't Then he left. Darn it! Right as I was coming around on "The Hitman"....

Bret's legend only grew during his absence. He was now the canon WWF GOAT. The Apter Mags built him up as perhaps the ultimate deciding force in the Monday Night War. I was terrified he would defect to WCW. Surely lost some sleep over the possibility. If I didn't KNOW it was going to be Jeff Jarrett (lol), Bret would have been the obvious choice for The Third Man. Bret's future hung in the balance. He had come to a fork in the road. Would he be a Baker Guy or the latest treacherous turncoat? Would he return a conquering hero- nothing less than the Cal Ripken Jr. of WWF? Or would he sell out to The Evil Empire like that traitor Mike Mussina would a few years later? 

He chose to be a bah gawd hero. I was all in on Bret's return. He was the Guy Who Stayed. Officially a Baker Guy. Probably for life. And I desperately wanted to see him kick the ass of that no good Texas Rattlesnake, Stone Cold Steve Austin.

He did indeed beat that damn Rattlesnake. But things went downhill after that. He kept getting screwed. Usually by asshole Austin. Sometimes by douchebag Michaels. He got screwed out of the WWF Championship twice. He got screwed out of a Royal Rumble victory. Bret was getting pissed off. And so was I.

I did not view Bret's increasingly bitter rants as the beginnings of a heel turn. Quite the contrary. I viewed Bret as an honest man...maybe the last honest man in wrestling. He was a paragon of virtue in a world gone mad. To me, Bret was not going down a heelish path. He was becoming an even bigger babyface. This wasn't my usual 'root for the heel' nonsense either. I genuinely believed Bret was the good guy. 

He kicked Austin's ass again at Wrestlemania 13 because GOATs gonna GOAT. But the INGRATES in the crowd cheered for that JERK Austin over St. Bret d'Alberta! The unmitigated GALL of those people!

There was no turning back after Bret formed the Hart Foundation. Bret wouldn't just be my favorite wrestler over the next 8 months. He was my favorite of the favorites. I never liked another wrestler as much as I liked 1997 Bret Hart. If he was a cult leader (and he kinda was) then I was drinking ALL the kool aid. Bret could do no wrong in my book.

He was already the canon WWF GOAT. He had the best matches. He had the best posse ever in the Hart Foundation. And he spit fire on the mic. You kids can have your pipebomb. I'll take 1997 Bret every single time. Fuck a Stone Cold! Give HBGay the business! Tell off those ignorant American ingrates in the crowd! Ooh yeah! If Vince, JR, and even Lawler don't like it, they can go to hell, too.

Anyway, Bret/Austin is my choice for GOAT feud, and Bret/HBK isn't too far behind. That stuff went beyond your run of the mill wrestling feud. They were as 'real' as wrestling ever got to me. I was so invested. 

It all culminated at the GOAT PPV- IYH Canadian Stampede. Best crowd ever. Best match ever. A shining moment for all 5 members of the Hart Foundation. This was their high imo. The sad thing is it would soon come crashing down. Tragic.

I loved any time Raw was in Canada, and even started fancying myself an honorary Canadian. I would keep doing the pro-Canada gimmick in real life all the way up to 9/11. 

My best friend Rick and I started seriously discussing our planned pilgrimage to Calgary once he graduated high school. We talked about this a lot! For the previous 18 months or so, Memphis had been our planned destination. But we now deemed Calgary the new Wrestling Capital of the World. 

Bret won the title for a record tying 5th time (take that, Hogan!) from Undertaker at Summerslam and seemed destined to be the top guy for....ever? Then it all came crashing down....

I'll never forget the morning a few days before Survivor Series when I made my daily call to this local free wrestling hotline. Hotline Guy dropped the biggest bombshell in free wrestling hotline history- Bret Hart was leaving WWF   NO! This can't be happening. Say it ain't so.

Not gonna lie. I was numb that day. And the next. And probably every other day after that for like 2 weeks. I did not focus on school. My mind was elsewhere. I didn't want to believe. Surely this must be some kind of mistake. Bret had just signed a 20 YEAR contract! He's the WWF GOAT! He can't leave!

Survivor Series '97 already had next level hype due to Bret taking on his other nemesis, HBK, in a rematch of their famed WM 12 Ironman Match. Now it had the added drama of Bret potentially leaving. I still didn't want to believe. Maybe Hotline Guy was wrong? Maybe Bret & Vince worked out whatever issues they had?

Then it happened. The infamous Montreal Screwjob. I felt sick to my stomach. This was the worst thing I had ever seen in wrestling. I watched this show at my friend Brandon/The Three Brothers house. They lived a block away. I did not walk straight home when it was over as I usually did. Instead I wandered around my neighborhood for a while in a daze. It was like somebody close to me had died. That's how seriously I took it. It was also the only time I ever questioned my militantly pro-WWF stance. I chose not to watch Raw the next night. Until Owen's tragic death, this was the absolute nadir of my life as a wrestling fan. I also assumed the Monday Night War was about to wrap up. WCW had been killing my beloved WWF even with Bret having an all time great run. And now WWF had just handed their best player and biggest star over to the enemy. Yeah, WWF was done. And in that moment, I didn't even care. They deserved to die for what they did to "The Hitman."

But somehow, some way, I quickly recovered. I guess a decade of WWF propaganda was just too strong? Or maybe it was just too much a part of my life? I was still pro-Bret though. Fuck Michaels. And, yes, fuck Vince for what he did to poor Bret. 

And fuck WCW too for being handed a game changer and proceeding to screw it up. They threw millions of dollars away and deserved to go out of business. People rag on Bret's WCW run. And it is no doubt justified. BUT he did provide us with three all time classic moments- The El Dandy promo. The segment with Goldberg in Canada where he wore a metal plate under his shirt. And the sublime "Owen Tribute" match with Chris Benoit.

Around 2000-2001 I got a 6 tape(!) set titled "WWF's Greatest Matches of the 90s." Bret had more matches than anyone else on this set. He also had the best matches on this set- outdoing #2 Michaels by a considerable margin. At that point, when it came to pure in ring work, I rated Bret 2nd all time behind only Flair.

Bret's story is ultimately a terribly tragic tale. Almost too depressing to be real. Like something straight out of Shakespeare, or one of those other classic trope making authors. Everybody always talks about wanting to see a Vince biopic. And that would be great! But I'd actually be even more interested in a serious Bret biopic. Bret's story has a little bit everything. But mostly tragedy....lots and lots of tragedy.

I don't get much of a kick out of Bitter Bret the way most of you guys do, but if anybody deserves to be bitter, it's Bret. 

Wrestling With Shadows was great. Bret's book? Also great. Right up there with Foley's first when it comes to GOAT wrestling books.

Amazing job running all this Baker . I've enjoyed reading the retrospectives and all the various fan stories and memories.

In five years time when we do this again I hope to see more women near the top and me with less unique votes! 💞

Yes, great job with the countdown Baker. I wish I wrote more to contribute to your hard work, but shit has been so depressing lately, it's been hard to muster up energy to write anything.

I, too, did a Canadian Nationalist gimmick to my friends, claiming it was better than American in every way, and it was actually a shoot. But that was the beauty of that run, and all great heel runs, Bret was mostly right about everything he said. You can not beat a heel that is correct. They're the best. And Bret was already the best.

Mental note if this gets a redo, which I'm sure it will, I GOTS TA get a list in for once.

Jul 8, 2020 23:00:12 GMT @ness said:

Mental note if this gets a redo, which I'm sure it will, I GOTS TA get a list in for once.

Or you can just go through with this....

Aug 7, 2019 13:37:34 GMT @ness said:

Now I wanna do my own '200' but I'm gonna see how you guys play out first.