God I hate Jarrett too. As iron maiden, said, fuck Jarrett.

Of that lot, I have 3 from there.  

47.  Kofi Kingston. 

38.  Pete Dunne

20.  Seth Rollins

i had 2 of the 3 New Day members in my list, I didn’t include Woods but he was a strong contender for a spot. Kofi has done the best work of his career with New Day, I find them all ridiculously entertaining, and all capable of having a great match with just about anyone their matches with the Usos are all great. 

Pete Dunne. It’s easy to forget just how young this guy actually is. When he exploded on to the scene in he inaugural NXT UK Tournament, he stole that show. He might not have won but he was no doubt the breakout star. He will go onto great things, I’m sure of it. When the eventually break up Riddle and Dunne, I think Dunne will shine. I love him. 

Ah Seth.  Not a fan of his latest work, I have to say but up to now I have loved him. I never thought he’d be the big breakout of SHIELD, I was sure that would be Roman but it’s Seth.  And I’m glad he’s using the curb stomp again, I love that move. 

Apr 9, 2020 22:07:53 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

My last one hit wonders fell in this batch:

The Bushwhackers Butch & Luke 9 & 10
Legion of Doom Hawk & Animal 23 & 24

If the Bushwhackers didn’t exist, I would have never fell in love with wrestling. My papa always watches boxing and wrestling. And TBH I always found it boring. I watched it for years with him and absolutely hated it. But then one night I hear him chuckling from his recliner and I look up and see the Bushwhackers on WWF and they were a hoot. These guys made me fall in love with wrestling. Everything that came after is because of them. For Christmas our grandparents got my brother and I a WWF figure of them (our first). I got Butch and my bro got Luke and that’s how we settled who we liked more. These two are treasures of mine and no matter what I’m watching if they show up in a match.. I stop and watch every single time. I enjoy them as much today as I did when I was seven.

The Legion of Doom is basically the team we moved to when the Bushwhackers kind of lost favor in the WWF. They just weren’t around much and while we still loved them we needed someone who was actually there. Naturally two guys with red shoulder pads with black spikes are going to top that list for us. To date.. I hate that we were never able to find their WWF figures locally so we could get our dream match going. Where was ebay when we were 8-9?!?

These four have a special place on my list. I basically decided where they would fall as a team (9 & 23) and gave them that and the next spot.

As far as people I didn’t put on my list:

THE MOUNTIE. This may have been a huge oversight for me. I can’t remember. I know that any part of his career when he wasn’t the Mountie (even when he was a Quebecer) I just didn’t care for. Having said that I absolutely loved him as the Mountie. Yeah.. I probably missed him on my list. I definitely snuck a few names on my list at the last minute that I’m going to hate myself for especially at the cost of guys like the Mountie.

Butch - 9
Luke - 10
Kamala - 17
Hawk - 23
Animal - 24
Lacey Evans - 27
Irwin R. Schyster - 30
Earthquake - 36
Chris Hero - 44
Jim Neidhart - 46
Candice LeRae - 47

In a former life, The Bushwackers were the Sheepherders and you should see their feud vs the Fantastics in the UWF.  Brutal

It was bothering so I went back to my list and found out I did indeed place Seth on it:

#39 Seth Rollins

Of course, I agree with everything Rogue said. He was my favorite of the 3 Shield members and who doesn't love a good Curb Stomp.

All that, plus Seth is ridiculously hot. So  there's that too.  #obligatoryshallowpost 

iron maiden

Apr 9, 2020 23:06:40 GMT Rogue said:

All that, plus Seth is ridiulously hot. So  there's that too.  #obligatoryshallowpost 

iron maiden

I see where you’re coming from, but he kind of has that derpy look that ruins it. Jay White is the upgrade:

Apr 9, 2020 23:13:56 GMT Lionheart said:

Apr 9, 2020 23:06:40 GMT Rogue said:

All that, plus Seth is ridiulously hot. So  there's that too.  #obligatoryshallowpost 

iron maiden

I see where you’re coming from, but he kind of has that derpy look that ruins it. Jay White is the upgrade:

Never heard of him, but hello there  :love:

Apr 9, 2020 3:10:00 GMT Baker said:

There was pathos in the Tommy Dreamer character. You couldn't help but root for the guy (unless you were Kilgore   )

This is indisputably true. Everything Bakerman says about Dreamer is true. He just omitted the fact that Raven was much cooler, was actually way more sympathetic in the backstory and feud, and that rooting for Dreamer was incorrect and probably immoral. YES, ROOT FOR THE DUMBSHIT JOCK THAT PICKED ON RAVEN IN SUMMER CAMP, THEN STOLE HIS WOMAN FROM HIM, STOLE HIS MOVE FROM HIM, STOLE HIS POSE FROM HIM, WHILE BEING PERCEIVED AS THE GOOD GUY THE ENTIRE TIME! I do not accept this reality. I will not accept it.

I actually like Dreamer, but he was just never one of my guys, I always preferred his rivals. I used to enjoy trolling Dreamer fans like "Innovator of Violence, all he does is steal other people's moves. What the fuck is he innovating?" Dreamer was also 100% cornball, which can be loveable, but I'd always roll me eyes like, "This fucking guy." Dreamer sold as well anybody ever, took a beating at an artistic level, bled buckets, seems like an all around good dude. Nothing but respect for the man, just not one of my favorites. 

So Dreamer/Raven, in a way, were kinda just rehashing and modernizing the Mega Powers feud?

Apr 10, 2020 1:47:29 GMT 🤯 said:

So Dreamer/Raven, in a way, were kinda just rehashing and modernizing the Mega Powers feud?

It was even more egregious. In the backstory, Beulah went to summer camp with Raven and Dreamer, and Dreamer used to make fun of her too because she had a bit of a weight problem. Then Raven reveals her as someone who grew up to be an absolute smokeshow as an adult and he and Beulah are the grunge couple of all grunge couples, two misfits in flannel that found each other, and it's kind of beautiful. Then Dreamer knocks her up and she goes with him. Then he does it again with Raven's rebound, Kimona! Like what the fuck? Why are you cheering this asshole?*

*Yes, Raven was also an asshole.

Apr 10, 2020 1:57:12 GMT Kilgore said:

Apr 10, 2020 1:47:29 GMT 🤯 said:

So Dreamer/Raven, in a way, were kinda just rehashing and modernizing the Mega Powers feud?

It was even more egregious. In the backstory, Beulah went to summer camp with Raven and Dreamer, and Dreamer used to make fun of her too because she had a bit of a weight problem. Then Raven reveals her as someone who grew up to be an absolute smokeshow as an adult and he and Beulah are the grunge couple of all grunge couples, two misfits in flannel that found each other, and it's kind of beautiful. Then Dreamer knocks her up and she goes with him. Then he does it again with Raven's rebound, Kimona! Like what the fuck? Why are you cheering this asshole?*

*Yes, Raven was also an asshole.

Yeah, but who wasn't some shade of asshole in the 90s?

In pro wrestling or otherwise.

I am a fan of all the directions this thread has taken, from drooling over Seth to Kilgore calling me out for being a Dreamer fan. I'll get back to 'gore later. Gotta get at least 1/4 of my shit in first though.

8. "The Mountie" Jacques Rougeau (#155)- When I saw Goldust get booed out of the building at Survivor Series '95 I decided I wanted to become a professional wrestler. But not just any kind of pro wrestler. I wanted to a bad guy pro wrestler. I wanted to piss people off. A psychiatrist could have a field day with me.

I never did become a pro wrestler. It's one of my big regrets in life. Maybe the biggest. It was the only thing I ever really wanted to do. Yet I chickened out. There was always an excuse. First my best friend Rick and I were gonna go to pro wrestling school together after he graduated high school (I was 2 years ahead of him). Then he got sent away to reform school, got his GED rather than a proper high school diploma (I think there's a difference?), and we drifted apart not long after he returned.  Then it was "next semester" for.....several college semesters. Then it was when I had saved up $x amount of money. Then it was when I bulked up. I never did bulk up. At least not in a wrestling acceptable way. Then my new friend Boo and I were gonna go to pro wrestling school together "soon." "Soon" never came. Like I said, there was always an excuse. I never went beyond making a few phone calls to local wrestling schools and sending out some e-mails to more distant ones. This went on from about November 1995-2002ish before I finally accepted the fact that I was a coward.

The closest I would ever get to fulfilling my pro wrestling aspirations would be my personalized CAW characters in the old Smackdown video game series. But I often daydreamed about my glorious future as a hated bad guy pro wrestler. I thought about it a lot. The sort of things I would do. The people I would pattern myself after. Sure, I'd have my own unique stuff. But I'd also borrow bits and pieces from dozens of my wrestling heroes. The one wrestler I would have stole the most from would have been Jacques Rougeau. And finally this story has a point! But first! A Fun Fact.....

I "invented" a dream finisher for myself that I initially dubbed the (very boring/generic) “Grab Leg Piledriver” before spicing it up a bit to “The Final Countdown.” It was basically a Package Piledriver. But! A few years back I was watching a random Quebecers squash, as I am wont to do, when I saw my man Jacques hit an honest to goodness Grab Leg Piledriver! Meaning I was even unconsciously stealing from the man. I must have seen it in real time and forgotten. 

Anyway, some people wanted to be Hulk Hogan. Others Steve Austin. I wanted to be Jacques Rougeau. Kilgore was spot on a few posts back. Jacques was definitely the kind of heel wrestler that I love. He was basically a troll before trolls were even a thing. He always seemed to have so much fun out there. I'm not sure anybody has ever taken as much delight in annoying a crowd as my man Jacques Rougeau. And he was such a natural at it!

Jacques could be comedic or vicious. He was such a ham who happened to be good on the mic, good in the ring, and had this awesome quirky sort of heel charisma. In short, he was a heel's heel. He also edges out Triple H in a battle for the ages to become the king of pro wrestling themes. Rougeau Brothers theme is the GOAT. Mountie theme is Top 5. Quebecers theme is not far behind that.

I already mentioned The Quebecers run in Pierre's blurb so I won't repeat myself (for once!). 

Rougeau Brothers as insincere All American Boys is one of the greatest gimmicks of all time. I don't even know how kiddie me understood what they were going for, but I did. And I thought it was brilliant even at a single digit age. In addition to their GOAT theme, I also loved their colorful outfits, heel antics, and near-Midnight Express level of double teaming (though the Quebecers were even better). I already mentioned The Quebecers being my 2nd favorite team of all time. Well, the Rougeau Brothers are 3rd. Which puts Jacques right up there with Arn & Eaton among the greatest tag team wrestlers to ever lace up the boots.

And then there's The Mountie. jTjohncenaGOAT gets it. The Mountie was sports entertainment gold. Check out his introductory vignettes if you don't believe me. Or the Bossman stuff at Summerslam 1991. One billion stars for all of it. Beat that, Meltzer. Come to think of it, even the Mountie's first theme (The French Horn) was fantastic. It reminds me of the music in the Sega Genesis classic, Uncharted Waters. 

I loved The Mountie so much it's ridiculous. One time I was stuck shopping with my parents when I spied a little mountie statue. I decided that was what I wanted for either Christmas or my birthday (I forget which). My brother was the only one who understood. He may have rolled his eyes, but at least he understood. My parents never would. I still have that mountie statue btw. It's only a few feet away as I type this. 

Dragon Warrior (Dragon Quest to you weird non-Americans) was one of my favorite NES games (Top 4 for sure) and my favorite NES series, period. My character in all those games was always named Mountie (or some variation like MOUNTIE, MOUNTY, Mounty).

There was yet another NES game called WWF Steel Cage. The Mountie was in this game! This game even had a Nintendoized version of his iconic theme. I would crank up the volume and let the song play for ages  :rofl:

There was even this mediocre 90s show called Due South that I watched for a while just because the main character was a mountie  :lol:

So, yeah, I LOVED The Mountie. Y'know, after writing all that I think I actually underrated Jacques by "only" putting him at #8. He got pro wrestling better than just about anybody to ever do it. Could see him rising even higher when we do this again in 5 years.

Plus he struck a blow for decent people everywhere when he ended notorious bully Dynamite Kid's reign of terror.

Plus plus as Kilgore mentioned, he pinned Hulk Hogan clean! How many people can say that??

Plus plus plus Jimmy Hart! And the Shock Stick~!

Jacques Rougeau: He's handsome. He's brave. He's strong. What a guy!

Apr 9, 2020 3:10:00 GMT Baker said:

39. Tommy Dreamer (#178)-
Then I remembered his admitted plot to ASSASSINATE Paul Heyman at a Wrestlemania. So it turns my man Tommy is not quite the wholesome good guy I had always viewed him as. My man has a darkside after all. What a shame.

On the contrary, I don't find it much of a shame at all. It was a big shock when I first heard that and my gut reaction was to be kind of creeped out, but that reaction has lessened over the years. It's not like he went through with it. Everyone has had crazy thoughts now and then. To quote Batman, it's not who you are inside but what you do that defines you. I think we all have wanted to assassinate Paul Heyman from time to time. Any true wrestling fan anyway.

The point is, maybe this plot is actually the reason that he IS the wholesome good guy we have always viewed him as. It shows he really did have the HEART. It wasn't just a show. Tommy Dreamer loved his career and loved his passion for wrestling so much that he was willing to kill over it. That is true heart.

Anyone who cares so much about their craft like Dreamer does would have to be crazy NOT to have an EXTREME reaction to what happened. It's easy to judge from the sidelines, but this was Dreamer's life. His career. His everything. He's still a good guy because despite all that, he didn't really go through with it. And I for one think there was never a chance that he really would have all along. The fact that he even admits to it and talks about it shows that even his thoughts of doing it were eating him up inside because he truly is a great guy.

That's how I see it anyway.

Apr 10, 2020 2:24:31 GMT Baker said:

I am a fan of all the directions this thread has taken, from drooling over Seth to Kilgore calling me out for being a Dreamer fan. I'll get back to 'gore later. Gotta get at least 1/4 of my shit in first though.

8. "The Mountie" Jacques Rougeau (#155)- When I saw Goldust get booed out of the building at Survivor Series '95 I decided I wanted to become a professional wrestler. But not just any kind of pro wrestler. I wanted to a bad guy pro wrestler. I wanted to piss people off. A psychiatrist could have a field day with me.

I never did become a pro wrestler. It's one of my big regrets in life. Maybe the biggest. It was the only thing I ever really wanted to do. Yet I chickened out. There was always an excuse. First my best friend Rick and I were gonna go to pro wrestling school together after he graduated high school (I was 2 years ahead of him). Then he got sent away to reform school, got his GED rather than a proper high school diploma (I think there's a difference?), and we drifted apart not long after he returned.  Then it was "next semester" for.....several college semesters. Then it was when I had saved up $x amount of money. Then it was when I bulked up. I never did bulk up. At least not in a wrestling acceptable way. Then my new friend Boo and I were gonna go to pro wrestling school together "soon." "Soon" never came. Like I said, there was always an excuse. I never went beyond making a few phone calls and sending some e-mails to wrestling schools. This went on from about November 1995-2002ish before I finally accepted the fact that I was a coward.

The closest I would ever get to fulfilling my pro wrestling aspirations would be my personalized CAW characters in the old Smackdown video game series. But I often daydreamed about my glorious future as a hated bad guy pro wrestler. I thought about it a lot. The sort of things I would do. The people I would pattern myself after. Sure, I'd have my own unique stuff. But I'd also take bits and pieces from dozens of my wrestling heroes. The one wrestler I would have stole the most from would have been Jacques Rougeau. And finally this story has a point! But first! A Fun Fact.....

I "invented" a dream finisher for myself that I initially called the very boring Grab Leg Piledriver before spicing it up to The Final Countdown. It was basically a Package Piledriver. But! A few years back I was watching a random Quebecers squash as I am wont to do when I saw my man Jacques hit a Package Piledriver. Meaning I was even unconsciously stealing from the man. I must have seen it in real time and forgotten. 

Anyway, Kilgore was spot on a few posts back. Jacques was definitely the kind of heel wrestler that I LOVE. He was basically a troll before trolls were even a thing. He always seem to have so much fun out there. I'm not sure anybody has ever gotten such joy in annoying a crowd as my man Jacques Rougeau. And he was such a natural at it!

Jacques could be comedic or vicious. He was a huge ham who happened to be good on the mic, good in the ring, and had this awesome quirky sort of heel charisma. In short, he was a heel's heel. He also edges out Triple H in a battle for the ages to become the king of pro wrestling themes. Rougeau Brothers theme is the GOAT. Mountie theme is Top 5. Quebecers theme is not far behind that.

I already mentioned The Quebecers run in Pierre's blurb so I won't repeat myself (for once!). 

Rougeau Brothers as insincere All American Boys is one of the greatest gimmicks of all time. I don't even know how kiddie me understood what they were going for, but I did. And I thought it was brilliant even at a single digit age. In addition to their GOAT theme, I also loved their colorful outfits, and near-Midnight Express level of double teaming (though the Quebecers were even better). I already mentioned The Quebecers being my 2nd favorite team of all time. Well, the Rougeau Brothers are 3rd. Which puts Jacques right up there with Arn & Eaton as one of the greatest tag team wrestlers to ever lace up the boots.

And then there's The Mountie. jTjohncenaGOAT gets it. The Mountie was sports entertainment gold. Check out his introductory vignettes if you don't believe me. Or the Bossman stuff at Summerslam 1991. One billion stars for all of it. Beat that, Meltzer. Come to think of it, even the Mountie's first theme (The French Horn) was fantastic. It reminds me of the music in the Sega Genesis classic, Uncharted Waters. 

I loved The Mountie so much it's ridiculous. One time I was stuck shopping with my parents when I spied a little mountie statue. I decided that was what I wanted for either Christmas or my birthday (I forget which). My brother was the only one who understood. He may have rolled his eyes, but at least he understood. My parents never would have. I still have that mountie statue btw. It's only a few feet away as I type this. 

Dragon Warrior (Dragon Quest to you weird non-Americans) was one of my favorite NES games (Top 4 for sure) and my favorite NES series, period. My character in all those games was always named Mountie (or some variation like MOUNTIE, MOUNTY, Mounty).

There was yet another NES game called WWF Steel Cage. The Mountie was in this game! This game even had a Nintendoized version of his iconic theme. I would crank up the volume and let the song play for ages  :rofl:

There was even this mediocre 90s show called Due South that I watched for a while just because the main character was a mountie  :lol:

So, yeah, I LOVED The Mountie. Y'know, after writing all that I think I actually underrated Jacques by "only" putting him at #8. He got pro wrestling better than just about anybody to ever do it. Could see him rising even higher when we do this again in 5 years.

Plus he struck a blow for decent people everywhere when he ended notorious bully Dynamite Kid's reign of terror.

Plus plus as Kilgore mentioned, he pinned Hulk Hogan clean! How many people can say that??

Jacques Rougeau: He's handsome. He's brave. He's strong. What a guy!

This totally reads like Mountie should be your number one guy. Top 5 at least. Your write up sounds very similar to my number one guy and myself. Fantastic write up truly deserving of The Mountie!

#201- #291

202. Lance Storm: 1-25

If I can be serious for a moment, I would like to tell you all how great Lance Storm is. Very. That is all. My #26. He was very sharp in the ring, his wrestling academy has put out some great talent, and his commentary is spot on. I wish he'd pick it up again.

205. Austin Aries: 1-24

Just missed my cut at #52. Very talented guy.

208. El Phantasmo: 1-22

No one else voted for EL PHANTASMO? WHAT!? What the Hell? This man is phenomenal. Does no one watch NJPW at all? His match against Ospreay for the Jr. title was one of the most exciting slobberknockers I have seen in a long time. Him and Ospreay could legitimately be considered the #1 and #2 best talents right now. No one even voted for him in their TOP FIFTY? This is too wild to believe. I slotted him in at #29 but I think that is low in hindsight and he will likely raise on my list in short order.

217. Io Shirai: 1-19

What? I like her, but TOP FIFTY OF ALL TIME? YOU SHOULD HAVE VOTED FOR EL PHANTASMO INSTEAD!

217. Taiji Ishimori: 1-19

I have been a fan of Taiji for a long time. He is very solid in the ring and very acrobatic, but he was always lacking something that Marufuji lacked and of course he can't hold up to KENTA. I'd love to watch him any time. I'm not a big fan of his total gimmick/personality change as the bone soldier lately and his sliding German is cringeworthy, but he still puts on great matches. I put him at #32.

221. Damien Sandow/Aron Stevens: 3-17

Fantastic in the ring. Fantastic on the mic. My #42. Emperor says his gimmick got old but I bet if he were in a prominent position on a show regularly watched he would hold up just fine and be enjoyed by all.

236. Alberto Del Rio: 2-15

This guy's cocky attitude is probably not even just a gimmick and that's what makes him so great. He sells it hard by being himself. But with added cheese. Just the normal amount of wrestling cheese though, so he can still be seen as a legitimate competitor. I probably liked him so much because of the intensity he puts behind all his moves/actions. Reminds me a lot of Edge. Only cockier.

238. D-Von Dudley: 1-15

This jabroni is only good for getting tables.

238. Brian Kendrick: 1-15

No one else voted for Brian Kendrick? This makes me sad. It's a shame how much WWE manages to bury amazing talent so much so that people don't even recognize it. Kendrick is a crazy good performer. My #36.

243. Roman Reigns: 2-13

I can't stay silent any longer. I absolutely hate this guy. No fucking clue how anyone likes him at all, let alone how he catapulted to superstardom out of nowhere. Seems like WWE just pushed him as hard as they could when he was one of the worst talents out of all the NXT people that they jobbed out. Dumb big guy. Nothing special about his matches. Just annoys me endlessly. His superman punch makes me cringe. Honestly, I think it is the worst finisher of all time. The cobra is vastly superior. I am legitimately interested in hearing what people like about this guy, so go ahead and tell me. But it will probably make me hate you.

247. Jack Evans: 1-12

EVANS FROM THE HEAVENS. Missed the cut for me at #56 but his talent is far above that. If he was pushed more and got more exposure (or if I just watched more of his matches) he easily could have made it. I think him and Angelico are one of the best tag teams in the world, but AEW is jobbing them out for some reason...the best tag team they have. I don't get it. They were the ONLY team not in the tag team tournament which confused me to no end. I just expected them to be there as huge stars. They gave off big impressions during the PPVs leading up the show. I had no idea they were so underappreciated. Whoever voted for him is awesome and should reveal themselves at once.

He is unique, innovative, crazy entertaining, does moves I've never seen before, and mixes things up every time so it's not just the same boring combos every single match like Private Party. He's a chaotic warrior of justice and should be AEW champion. I don't even like break-dancing, in fact I hate it, but he makes me love it when he does it. He's hilarious on the mic as well. He could be a fantastic cocky heel champ that everyone hates if given the chance.

253. Ryback: 1-11

Like Roman Reigns but even dumber and even more upfront about being dumb.

265. Chavo Guerrero: 1-6

Chavo Guerrrero put on some of the best WWE matches at the time throughout his entire later run, which was at its peak when I got into wrestling. One of my early favorites. I loved the proud attitude and he was a great actor. He really came off as upset and offended by everything. Yet he was willing to do any embarrassing and/or dumb shit he was asked to do. I couldn't understand why all his matches were so good yet he got nowhere in the company. One of my first tastes of the incompetence of WWE booking. He was no Eddie, but his ring skills were almost at that level.

265. Lance Archer: 1-6

Amazing for a big guy. Does shooting star presses and shit but is nearly 7 feet tall. Most guys like that just phone it in and rely on that size so they don't have to train as hard as everyone else. Lance Archer says FUCK YOU, EVERYBODY DIES to those lazy assholes and standing moonsaults them in the goddamn face. You can't not be impressed by this guy. One of the most intense wrestlers in NJPW too. Brings the ferocity like no other. A great student of Minoru Suzuki's strong style teachings. #51 on my list. Couldn't have been any closer to getting my vote. Probably deserved it, but my nostaligia for some lesser wrestlers is too great.

269. Mickie James: 1-5

Had a major crush on her when I got into wrestling. One of the hottest divas around. Pretty solid in the ring too for most divas of the time, but of course she's no Ronda or

275. R-Truth: 1-4

My #1 most hated wrestler of all time solely because he says "What's Up?" a million times in a row and that's his gimmick. He thinks it's cool but it's not. It's like something a 12 year old would do. Crazy annoying. And somehow the crowd loves it. Chants back at him like he's the second coming of Jesus. I hate it. He gets five times the amount of cheers SCU does who are all five times the talent that he is in the ring. I just don't get it.

280. Curt Hawkins: 1-3

Same story I keep telling. One of the best in the company but jobbed out for no reason. I really hate that people never got a chance to see the star shine of wrestlers like this.

280. Carlito: 1-3

Forgot he existed. The backstabber and the apple were cool.

284. Amazing Red: 1-2

Never saw much of this guy but always thought he was amazing. Maybe I'd like him if I saw more. Honestly though, as great as he is, he just seems like a toned down inferior version of Jack Evans from his two recent matches that I saw at NJPW Showdown.

284. Funaki: 1-2

Indeed.

Apr 10, 2020 1:32:11 GMT Kilgore said:

Apr 9, 2020 3:10:00 GMT Baker said:

There was pathos in the Tommy Dreamer character. You couldn't help but root for the guy (unless you were Kilgore   )

This is indisputably true. Everything Bakerman says about Dreamer is true. He just omitted the fact that Raven was much cooler, was actually way more sympathetic in the backstory and feud, and that rooting for Dreamer was incorrect and probably immoral. YES, ROOT FOR THE DUMBSHIT JOCK THAT PICKED ON RAVEN IN SUMMER CAMP, THEN STOLE HIS WOMAN FROM HIM, STOLE HIS MOVE FROM HIM, STOLE HIS POSE FROM HIM, WHILE BEING PERCEIVED AS THE GOOD GUY THE ENTIRE TIME! I do not accept this reality. I will not accept it.

I used to enjoy trolling Dreamer fans like "Innovator of Violence, all he does is steal other people's moves. What the fuck is he innovating?" Dreamer was also 100% cornball, which can be loveable. Dreamer sold as well anybody ever, took a beating at an artistic level, bled buckets, seems like an all around good dude. Nothing but respect for the man

None of this is wrong. But you're sort of making my point. The fact that they got me to become a Tommy Dreamer Guy is a testament to the greatness of Paul's booking and Tommy's portrayal of a guy who is all heart. Here's why...

You've been reading my posts for 7 years now. So you know me pretty well. Do I strike you as the kind of guy who is predisposed to rooting for somebody like Tommy Dreamer? Of course not! Quite the opposite, in fact.

While I may not have been into the subculture Raven represented, he was far more my kind of wrestler. He was gold on the mic. He had presence. He had lackeys. He had a "darkness." He had cool catchphrases. He was just a much more interesting dude in general.

So, yeah, I'd have been all about Raven over Tommy if I had been watching ECW in real time. And you know what? I still was as I experienced the Cliff Notes version of ECW via those overly priced white box tapes a few years after the fact. For the longest time I'd have been that guy in the front row who gave Tommy the finger when he beat Raven in the LLT match.

But here's where the brilliance of this feud comes in.

Raven won every single time. This feud didn't just last a few months. It lasted 2 and a half years. 2 and a half years where Tommy didn't hold a single win over Raven. It was the polar opposite of stupid 50/50 booking. Sure, it wasn't JUST Raven vs. Tommy. Other characters were (brilliantly) cycled in and out to avoid it getting stale. Tommy lost to most of them too! Tommy was a victim of screwjob after screwjob. Eventually I got to the point, even in tape form, to where I wanted to see Tommy finally get one over on Raven. 

And then he did! Which is why I'm probably the high vote on their Wrestlepalooza Loser Leaves Town Match (it was #3 ECW Match last time I did a list). That match was the culmination of 2 and a half years of storytelling.

*I'm tired and don't think I really explained this half as well as I would have liked. But the gist of it is Tommy was a wrestler I was predisposed to disliking who won me over through sheer grit, determination, and HEART....

With a big assist from Paul's booking. But I can't vote for "The Booking of Tommy Dreamer" as my 39th favorite wrestler of all time. I can only vote for Tommy Dreamer: The Innovator of Violence. 

Fwiw I had Raven comfortably above Dreamer on my list. So we're actually on the same side. I like Tommy a lot. Certainly much more than you. But I still like Raven even more than Tommy.

Apr 9, 2020 23:13:56 GMT Lionheart said:

Apr 9, 2020 23:06:40 GMT Rogue said:

All that, plus Seth is ridiulously hot. So  there's that too.  #obligatoryshallowpost 

iron maiden

I see where you’re coming from, but he kind of has that derpy look that ruins it. Jay White is the upgrade:

Nope. Seth’s hotter.

But he’s not Drew or Randy hotter.

All honorable mentions this time.

Al Snow- Was not a Leif Cassidy fan in the beginning but as Kilgore described he had a perfectly silly gimmick for the ECW crowd with a double entente that they could latch onto. He could also get it done in the ring. His snowplow finisher is one of the more overlooked moves of recent time and he had great charisma. He is also my spirit animal when it comes to his opinions on the wrestling industry as a whole. Al Snow shoot interview clips are more often than not in my youtube queue.

Terry Gordy- A complete package with a great big man look, movez, and coming off as a nut with his mannerisms. He was also a boisterous promo that could easily get the ire of fans. The uninitiated need to see his work with Steve Williams, one of the best monster gaijin teams of all time. Plus they had a brief run in WCW in 1992 which you folks with the WWE Network can look up.

Akira Taue- Pretty much the Ringo of the AJPW Four Pillars. Still though he was another impressive big man worker with great agility and the true chokeslam from hell. He was the perfect stoic contrast to his much more fiery teammate Toshiaki Kawada, probably the best team in AJPW history. He was also brought up to another level in his singles matches with Misawa. Had he come along in any other generation he would have been much more revered. Imagine a prime Taue vs prime Jumbo Tsuruta, sign me up.

Genichiro Tenryu-  Co-ace with Jumbo in 80's AJPW he helped set the template for the 90's boom in that company. He had incredible cardio for a former ex-sumo and I think was still having respectable matches as recently as a few years ago if I'm not mistaken.

Steve Williams- He seemed like a literal monster, in my estimation the true strongest guy I've ever seen in the ring. His pressing of Terry Gordy in the 1989 War Games is right up there with ultimate feats of strength. Gordy was like a child going up and hitting that cage. He also had a bit of Scott Steiner in him with his sometimes off the wall promos. Add in his amateur credentials and I say we should be hyping this guy up for legit tough guys over people like Meng. That Brawl For All performance did him no favors I suppose.

Kevin Nash- It's been said before but his ascension was key to me dumping the WWF in late 1994. In a kayfabe sense he deserved that match with Bret at KOTR 1994 but for the level he was at it was too much too soon. Became instantly cool when he was the second man in the nWo equation. This really should have been bigger than Hall since he was the made man of the New Generation as the WWF champion for a year. He really became comfortable in his own skin in WCW and became a natural at providing entertaining segments. In retrospect his limited shit was good shit. His matches with Bret still more than hold up and are true gems for me as I had missed that stuff in real time.

The Road Warriors- They could never be apart even in a massive countdown like this. I couldn't bring myself to separate them as they were two halves of the same brain and were really missing something when they went solo. Still a top 3 favorite act for me and still should have got a pass for this list. Every other upper echelon team had some sort of success apart and made solo names for themselves. This criteria damaged LOD more than any other two wrestlers but it is what it is.

...and finally, I've been waiting nearly 5 years to do this. Maybe Baker is aware of this guy but I still would like to hear his thoughts.

Jeff Jarrett- I'm just going to leave this here. It's much more entertaining than I could ever be when ranting about Double J.





 

Apr 9, 2020 5:52:49 GMT Lionheart said:

SANADA can pull this off because of his image and mannerisms. They just exude personality. It makes you want to get behind him. You say he's not exceptional at anything, but I'm not sure that's true. He just doesn't show it off every match. He went toe to toe with Zack Sabre Jr. in the G1 match, wrestling Sabre's style the entire match. And he nearly did it just as damn well, which caught me by surprise. Then his G1 match with Okada was one of the most tense and exciting of the entire tournament. He isn't the best at anything, but he's great at everything. He isn't the guy you go to watch, but he supports anyone on the roster really well and puts on great matches with them almost every time.

His image and mannerisms exude a lack of personality to me. Disagree that he has great matches with everyone. A great SANADA match is a rare thing, and he's been given more opportunities than most, including infinite shots against Okada.

I will credit him on one aspect. Technically, he is one of the best on the roster, and his ability to hang with ZSJ is proof of that. If he wrestled a more technical style in general, I imagine I would like him more.

Apr 10, 2020 3:41:27 GMT Lionheart said:

No one else voted for EL PHANTASMO? WHAT!? What the Hell? This man is phenomenal. Does no one watch NJPW at all? His match against Ospreay for the Jr. title was one of the most exciting slobberknockers I have seen in a long time. Him and Ospreay could legitimately be considered the #1 and #2 best talents right now. No one even voted for him in their TOP FIFTY? This is too wild to believe. I slotted him in at #29 but I think that is low in hindsight and he will likely raise on my list in short order.

In my experience, most people only watch NJPW for Wrestle Kingdom, or when Moxley or Jericho show up. In any case, El Fantasmo is not a Top #50 talent. Not yet. All the potential is there, but for me he hasn't been around long enough to establish himself as a favourite.

Apr 10, 2020 3:41:27 GMT Lionheart said:

221. Damien Sandow/Aron Stevens: 3-17
Fantastic in the ring.

Come on.

Apr 10, 2020 3:41:27 GMT Lionheart said:

265. Lance Archer: 1-6
Amazing for a big guy. Does shooting star presses and shit but is nearly 7 feet tall. Most guys like that just phone it in and rely on that size so they don't have to train as hard as everyone else. Lance Archer says FUCK YOU, EVERYBODY DIES to those lazy assholes and standing moonsaults them in the goddamn face. You can't not be impressed by this guy. One of the most intense wrestlers in NJPW too. Brings the ferocity like no other. A great student of Minoru Suzuki's strong style teachings. #51 on my list. Couldn't have been any closer to getting my vote. Probably deserved it, but my nostaligia for some lesser wrestlers is too great.

Missed that Lance Archer appeared. He was my #44. I feel as if he never came to WWE or TNA, developed himself overseas and became the monster that he is now, he would have much better reputation.

He also spent a lot of teaming with Davey Boy Smith Jr. as the Killer Elite Squad. Fantastic big man tag team, but recent events have shown that Davey Boy held Archer back, as Archer has been amazing since he was unleashed on the world as a singles competitor unleashed. He lacks that ability to craft truly great big time matches, but everything else is there. The look, the presence, the attitude, and the moves.

I really couldn't care less that he could do a Shooting Star Press or a Moonsault. We live in a world where every wrestler, big or small, can do that stuff. Impressive as they are, Archer is best when he's destroying people and catapulting them around the ring.

Apr 10, 2020 3:41:27 GMT Lionheart said:

284. Amazing Red: 1-2
Never saw much of this guy but always thought he was amazing. Maybe I'd like him if I saw more. Honestly though, as great as he is, he just seems like a toned down inferior version of Jack Evans from his two recent matches that I saw at NJPW Showdown.

You watch Amazing Red in his career renaissance, far past his prime, and say he is a toned down version of a wrestler in his prime, or just past it. Watch Amazing Red from the early 2000s, and recognise that very few people were wrestling like he did at that time.

Tomohiro Ishii (#28)
Nobody has spoken about Ishii yet. I guess it's up to me.

Back on the old boards, a poster called HilaryFan was Ishii's biggest supporter. Post after post he would praise his ability to get the best out of all of his opponents. At the time, as a fairly inexperienced NJPW watcher, I would constantly reply to his hyperbolic comments with "I don't get it; he's not that good." posts.

Years later, I get it. Ishii can take almost any opponent, and match, and turn it into gold. He's elevated a huge number of wrestlers from simply working one match. Perhaps the most famous example is his 2013 G1 Climax match with Katsuyori Shibata. Shibata was a made man after that match. His match with Honma at New Beginning 2015 also has an excellent reputation. Honma!! He's done similar feats of magic with Goto, Taichi, Omega, and even outside of NJPW, with guys like Chris Hero and Keith Lee in RevPro.

"Dr. Death" Steve Williams (#15)
Akira Taue (#29)
Terry Gordy (#38)
All staples of the golden area of AJPW. Gordy is a fantastic big man, although I didn't like him as much as other big gaijins, including Dr. Death, and he didn't stick around for as long. Not seen any of his work with the Freebirds.

In the early 90s I didn't think Steve Williams was a particularly great gaijin. He always played second fiddle to Stan Hansen. Then sometime around 1993 or 1994, he suddenly became this unstoppable Lesnar-esque force of nature, winning the Triple Crown and establishing himself as the top foreign wrestler. The Dangerous Backdrop became his finisher, and there isn't a more fitting word than "Dangerous". Just look at it.

Taue is the least of the Four Pillars, but still a world class wrestler. As Shootist said, the perfect partner to Kawada's energetic, fiery personality. He was not athletically gifted but had a blunt brutality that the other three pillars lacked. He would often bend the rules, much to the chagrin of the fans, but he didn't care. However, even when he played the babyface role, as he did on rare occasions, it worked very well, proving his comptence. Also has one of the GOAT chokeslams.


Pete Dunne
Velveteen Dream
Loved both guys when they first arrived on the scene in NXT, and were fresh, but after a year or two they became generic NXT workrate machines, spamming finishers and near falls at alarming rates, and I got bored of them.

Pete Dunne is also one of the top exports of one of my bigger wrestling pet peeves: finger breaking spots.

Jack Swagger (#32)
One of my absolute favourites during his Smackdown run as World Heavyweight Championship. Used the Gutwrench Powerbomb (as did Dr. Death), one of my favourite wrestling moves, and had this hilarious goofy personality. He's had a resurgence in AEW. I'm not too big on the super serious MMA Monster gimmick, but he's not been showcased that much so it's hard to properly evaluate this second run.

Lance Storm
So good at playing a serious/boring gimmick that people actually think he is boring. I've actually seen very little of Lance Storm in the ring. However his philosophy on pro-wrestling is incredible, meaning I seek out anything Lance has to say about the business. This includes the blog he used to run on his old website, podcast appearances, and his own podcast, Killing The Town. It's no surprise that podcast went to shit the moment Lance Storm left.Plus he had an awesome match in Ring of Honor against Brian Danielson.

#11 Jeff Jarrett (#156)- Listen up all you Slapnuts'. Ric Flair was great. Honkytonk Man was great. Jeff Jarrett combined the greatness of Flair with the greatness of HTM to become doubly great. Therefore, when Jeff Jarrett asks "Ain't I great?" the only correct answer is "Yes!"

I was a Double J Guy from Day One simply because country music was my preferred genre when he debuted in WWF. So I liked Jarrett even before realizing he was this unbeatable combination of Flair + Honky. Also, I would dress like New Generation Jeff Jarrett if it were even remotely socially acceptable. "Aztec Warrior" Double J was also pretty fashionable come to think of it. Double J: Most Stylish Wrestler? EDIT: Other than Nick Aldis.

I received over the phone play by play commentary from my cousin during Royal Rumble 95 and remember marking out when he told me JJ beat Razor for the IC Title. Can also still recall the disdain in Cousin's voice when he broke the news btw. I marked out even harder when JJ returned after a brief hiatus later that year at IYH December to assault Ahmed Johnson. He was already one of my all time favorites by this point. JJ had a good feud with Razor and a great match with Michaels en route to becoming a Top 10 IC Champ in company history as far as I'm concerned. He had a couple stretches of owning that belt.

Then JJ left WWF again. Boo! I've told the story before of how I was convinced JJ was going to be the 3rd Man. Everything would have changed had that been the case. I'd have been out there rocking the NWO shirt rather than hating them so much that I quit watching WCW forever. 

Instead he became a Horsemen. Awesome! After all, I had long viewed him as the second coming of Ric Flair. But WCW sadly never did much with it. JJ as a Horseman has been one of my fanfic staples since.....forever. He should have formed a championship winning tag team duo with Arn (Double Trouble, baby!) before usurping the Horsemen from Flair, becoming the New Nature Boy, and going on to become a 16 time world champion. But stupid WCW did none of this. 

Then he came back to WWF and honestly felt out of place in the Attitude Era. Even I only liked him due to the residual good will he had built up over the years. I did like that one time on the Raw after Wrestlemania 14 where he went back to his old gimmick and came out on a blinking horse. That was awesome. But little else was. Even the awesome-on-paper team with Owen was just kind of there.

But he finally found his footing again with the misogynist gimmick. Even notorious JJ hater Kilgore has admitted he was into Jarrett during this run. JJ was finally getting some white hot heel heat. But that ended when he became one of the few people to ever successfully get one over on Vince.

JJ jumped back to WCW. Now here's a good example of how much I loved Double J. I was a rabid WWF fanboy/WCW hater. Basically anybody other than Bret (extenuating circumstances) who left WWF for WCW became my enemy for "selling out." JJ "sold out" worse than any of them! But I didn't even care. And when I'd read about JJ winning all these WCW Championships I'd just nod my head like "Yep. It's about damn time." 

I started watching TNA in the beginning of 2003. JJ was obviously one of the big reasons why. My friend Bryan and I were pretty big TNA fans for a while there during the weekly PPV era. We'd order about 2 shows out of 3. Despite growing up during the Hulkamania Era, and being the right age during the Attitude Era, Bryan was a weirdo who did not become a wrestling fan until like 2001. One day we were watching TNA and he was like "What's the deal with Jeff Jarrett? Is he a modern day legend?" "YES!" I replied. "Modern Day Legend" was the best description of JJ that I ever heard.

You have to understand I was not playing a gimmick. I genuinely believed this. JJ was pretty much everything I liked in a wrestler. And I guess I overrated him to an insane degree? Regardless, I was never more into TNA than when Jarrett was on top from 03-06. I even bought a TNA Jeff Jarrett shirt(!) when TNA held a house show in 2006 at the ECW Arena.

A big dream match of mine during this period was Bryan Danielson vs. Jeff Jarrett for the ROH Championship on an ROH show. That would have been a GOAT level crowd for sure. Bryan was the hero of the smark set while Jarrett had surpassed Triple H to become their Public Enemy #1. The heat would have been off the charts.

Anyway, that stupid line about how Jeff Jarrett never drew a dime is demonstrably false. I once did an awesome(ly insane) project on the old PW called Jeff Jarrett: Counting The Dimes where I literally counted up every single dime Jeff Jarrett drew from me  :rofl: I think the answer was somewhere in the 7000s. And that's with taking a very conservative approach. That thread is still one of my favorite things I ever did on either PW. The point is he drew 7000+ dimes from just one person proving that, yes, Jeff Jarrett did in fact draw dimes.

All joking aside, I really did expect JJ to at least crack the 50 point barrier and was disappointed when he did not. My vote alone put him 80% of the way there! I thought 🤯 UT or both would push him over the hump. 

Double J was a painful late cut from my list. He was banging around somewhere in my 51-60, probably based purely on the strength of his IYH2 match against HBK.

Yeah JJ was a later cut from mine too. I loved old school WWF Jarrett but thought he evolved (devolved) into a pretty basic heel and lost something.

Then again I’m the sole vote for Ahmed Johnson so what do I know?

Apr 10, 2020 14:00:43 GMT UT said:

Yeah JJ was a later cut from mine too. I loved old school WWF Jarrett but thought he evolved (devolved) into a pretty basic heel and lost something.

Then again I’m the sole vote for Ahmed Johnson so what do I know?

The end result of his evolution wasn't bad (i.e., late 1998 - 1999). But that "in between" time from late 1997 through the first part of 1998 was AWKWARD.

From My List:

142. Stephanie McMahon: 2-46 (36)
Perhaps the hottest woman in wrestling, if not then at least one of. Even despite that one camera shot from RAW in recent history where she was handcuffed and it kinda ruined the perceived quality of her implants. A fucking EXCELLENT character, which makes sense considering she was born into the business. Debuted in a compelling way, and totally dug her as the central pivot point for the Test/Shane/Triple H/Vince stuff in 1999. Then, LOVED her evolution into perhaps the greatest heel since Mr. McMahon throughout 2000. Just kept getting hotter. Loved the Triple H/Steph/Kurt love triangle but HATE that it never got a proper conclusion. Could've gone some interesting places. Plus, after 2000, it felt like her pairing with HHH kinda held him back a bit. Like, how was HHH ever gonna fully break out as a hot bad ass face with his boss's daughter wife by his side? Anyway... mostly pissed that early 2001 didn't feature Steph vs. Trish in a naked match.

Moving on... Loved her as the foil for Jericho, and thought there was so much botched promise in aligning her with either Y2J or Kurt as their manager/mistress in 2001 or 2002. Controversial take, but was totally OK with her being revealed as the "owner" of ECW. Made enough sense to me. If Shane could buy WCW out from under daddy's nose, well... Steph has never been one to be outdone by her big brother, so her buying ECW makes sense. Then she goes away and comes back in 2002, and worked fine as the GM of SD! opposite Bischoff after WWE abandoned the Vince vs. Ric idea. In fact, she worked surprisingly well as a face GM IMO. She gets bonus points for being associated with my favorite stretch of pro wrestling ever perhaps. The shit later on in 2003 with Vince and Sable was a little cringey to say the least... but she also legit ripped Sable's top off, exposing titties on a taped show... so there's that! Also, it was in 2003 when Steph started revealing she could be as compelling in the ring as her dad.

Flash forward, and Steph is going less and less. Becoming more of that exec/figurehead/whatever behind the scenes. Then she pops up in the Modern Era as the face of the Women's Evolution Revolution, and proved she can still put on a more compelling match that most of the active women's roster in her matches against Whichever Bella and Ronda. So good. I had her below the other McMahons purely due to lack of match history. If I was ranking them based on hotness and how bad I want to see them naked though, Steph would be #2 (just behind Linda).

147. Vince McMahon: 2-45 (24)
The all-time greatest heel to ever exist in the wrestling business? Character-wise or real life-wise? I understand the hate Vince gets, but as a diehard Vince loyalist a la Baker-man, he deserves ZERO of it. He's the reason we're all here today, whether any of us want to admit it or not (well, Vince AND Eddie Gilbert are the reasons... I guess).

Whether as an announcer alongside Jesse Ventura (a pairing I think I honestly preferred just slightly over Gorilla & Brian) or even alongside JR & King (perhaps the ONLY announce trio I've ever liked?)... or a wrestling boss character... or wrestler... Vince just fucking NAILS it. We all know what the man has done, what he's capable of, his pro/cons, strengths/weaknesses, etc. Whatever. So instead, let me take this opportunity to free ball my Top 10 Favorite Vince Matches:
10. vs. 1999 Royal Rumble
09. vs. Zach Gowan @ Vengenace 2003
08. vs. Stephanie McMahon @ No Mercy 2003
07. vs. The Undertaker @ Survivor Series 2003
06. vs. Ric Flair @ Royal Rumble 2002
05. vs. Shawn Michaels @ WM22
04. vs. Triple H @ Armageddon 1999
03. vs. Steve Austin @ St. Valentine's Day Massacre
02. vs. Shane McMahon @ WMX7
01. vs. Hulk Hogan @ WMXIX

163. Santino: 1-40 (11)
Such a fucking talented performer. Can't believe I'm the only voter. I'm guessing then I'm probably the only one who popped HUGE for Santina popping up in this year's Women's Royal Rumble. I'd take Santino 11 times out of 10 over Daniel Bryan as the underdog people's champion. His performance in the 40-man Royal Rumble and that one Elimination Chamber were so epic, I would've totally bought him winning and been all-in on him going on to win a world title at a 'Mania. Honestly, you wouldn't believe how seriously I think Santino/Miz is one of modern day WWE's greatest missed opportunities as far as a WrestleMania world title program. Instead, I feel like the lazy grease rat CM Punk wasted all the space on the card that could've/should've gone to the REAL People's Champion Santino.


* * * * *


Considered and/or Regret Forgetting:
156. Jeff Jarrett: 2-42
- As touched on in previous posts, JJ lived in my 51-60 range based on the strength of his performance against HBK at IYH2. Loved his gimmick and run in WWF from 1993-1995. Late 95-early 98 seemed like such a weird time for JJ though, that's probably what hurt him and dropped him out of my Top 50. I dug his evolution starting with the haircut in mid-98, and was on board with his new character in WWF through early fall of 1999. Then, he jumped to WCW, where I only followed his career via magazines... but I envisioned the likes of him and Booker as WCW's knock-off versions of HHH and Rock respectively.

158. Jack Swagger: 2-42
- Was gaining hype and steam on WWECW from what I can recall, and I remember being on board when first checking him out. He was like Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar had a baby. But he wasn't booked well. And WWE at the time was so terrible, I think he was plagued by the stank. He'd have various moments of glory here and there, but the WWE stank prevailed. I recall hearing something about the Swagger Eagle, which looked great from what little I saw. And then his We The People run seemed great and full of promise. But bad booking killed Swagger for me even harder than it killed Ryback. Now he's in AEW where nothing good happens unless you're part of the no homo circle jerk. He should've stuck with MMA and/or gone to #NWAPowerrr instead. Would've been EXCELLENT in NWA as Dan Severn 2.0.

161. Gail Kim: 2-41
- Was bummed she didn't stick around WWE longer. She should've been as integral a part of WWE's women's division as Victoria, Molly, Jazz, Trish, and Lita. Instead, seems like she popped up outta the blue and then disappeared just as fast. WTF? At least she had a solid run in TNA producing magic with Awesome Kong.

164. Al "Leif Cassidy" Snow: 2-39
- The things that put Al over the top for me as far as loving him were his runs a Tough Enough coach, his match against Benoit in ECW, and then some of his shoot promos talking about Andre/Hogan @ WM3 being "better" than Savage/Steamboat.

Apr 10, 2020 13:30:39 GMT Baker said:

#11 Jeff Jarrett (#156)

A big dream match of mine during this period was Bryan Danielson vs. Jeff Jarrett for the ROH Championship on an ROH show. That would have been a GOAT level crowd for sure. Bryan was the hero of the smark set while Jarrett had surpassed Triple H to become their Public Enemy #1. The heat would have been off the charts.

I kinda want to abandon the Fan Fic idea I'd been working on and go back and do a TNA vs. ROH fed centred on this. What an awesome idea. Like Jerry Lawler in ECW but better. Genius.

Apr 10, 2020 15:02:02 GMT PB said:

Apr 10, 2020 13:30:39 GMT Baker said:

#11 Jeff Jarrett (#156)

A big dream match of mine during this period was Bryan Danielson vs. Jeff Jarrett for the ROH Championship on an ROH show. That would have been a GOAT level crowd for sure. Bryan was the hero of the smark set while Jarrett had surpassed Triple H to become their Public Enemy #1. The heat would have been off the charts.

I kinda want to abandon the Fan Fic idea I'd been working on and go back and do a TNA vs. ROH fed centred on this. What an awesome idea. Like Jerry Lawler in ECW but better. Genius.

This would've just continued my perception of Double J as Triple H Lite! Not only was Jarrett just a "Double" (c'mon man, couldn't find a third J to become a Triple H!?) but he was also just following the HHH model of character and booking: modeling himself after Flair as much as he could, abusing connections to powers-that-be and the booking committee to position himself as undeserving world champ, etc.

Double J vs. Bryan Danielson around that time period would've felt like nothing more than a minor league rehash of Triple H vs. Chris Benoit!

🤯 I know you hate CM Punk but you should check out Vince’s last ever match which is a Street Fight on Raw against Punk in 2012. A great performance from a near 70 year old man who shouldn’t be getting physical anymore. Punk played his slimy heel role well. Highlights include a kendo stick battle and Vince diving over the announce table to attack Punk. One of Vince’s best ever matches imo and a highlight for WWE in 2012.

Apr 10, 2020 15:06:34 GMT 🤯 said:

Apr 10, 2020 15:02:02 GMT PB said:

I kinda want to abandon the Fan Fic idea I'd been working on and go back and do a TNA vs. ROH fed centred on this. What an awesome idea. Like Jerry Lawler in ECW but better. Genius.

This would've just continued my perception of Double J as Triple H Lite! Not only was Jarrett just a "Double" (c'mon man, couldn't find a third J to become a Triple H!?) but he was also just following the HHH model of character and booking: modeling himself after Flair as much as he could, abusing connections to powers-that-be and the booking committee to position himself as undeserving world champ, etc.

Double J vs. Bryan Danielson around that time period would've felt like nothing more than a minor league rehash of Triple H vs. Chris Benoit!

The biggest and most important difference between Triple H during reign of doom and Jeff Jarrett, is that Double J would take the beating, or the loss, or allow himself to look stupid at the right time. Spoiler for later in the list, I'm a big Triple H fan - but the biggest reason he never was as great as he could have been was his insecurities and not allowing himself to look bad as a heel. JJ would. He would tap out to cattle mutilation and cry the whole way up the ramp. It would be glorious.

Apr 10, 2020 15:09:49 GMT PB said:

Apr 10, 2020 15:06:34 GMT 🤯 said:

This would've just continued my perception of Double J as Triple H Lite! Not only was Jarrett just a "Double" (c'mon man, couldn't find a third J to become a Triple H!?) but he was also just following the HHH model of character and booking: modeling himself after Flair as much as he could, abusing connections to powers-that-be and the booking committee to position himself as undeserving world champ, etc.

Double J vs. Bryan Danielson around that time period would've felt like nothing more than a minor league rehash of Triple H vs. Chris Benoit!

The biggest and most important difference between Triple H during reign of doom and Jeff Jarrett, is that Double J would take the beating, or the loss, or allow himself to look stupid at the right time. Spoiler for later in the list, I'm a big Triple H fan - but the biggest reason he never was as great as he could have been was his insecurities and not allowing himself to look bad as a heel. JJ would. He would tap out to cattle mutilation and cry the whole way up the ramp. It would be glorious.

False. Biggest reason HHH was never as great as he could have been was because he abandoned his GOAT look of denim vest over leather jacket.

Apr 10, 2020 15:09:23 GMT @theshow said:

🤯 I know you hate CM Punk but you should check out Vince’s last ever match which is a Street Fight on Raw against Punk in 2012. A great performance from a near 70 year old man who shouldn’t be getting physical anymore. Punk played his slimy heel role well. Highlights include a kendo stick battle and Vince diving over the announce table to attack Punk. One of Vince’s best ever matches imo and a highlight for WWE in 2012.

Great recommendation, and will gladly do so. Will dial it up once I make it through CoronaMania 36 Night 2.