Alright so I'm probably not 100% coherent, but stay with me here.

Originally I typed up my wrestling "bio" (which actually sounds like a cool thread next!) because I saw the reaction to Taker's "legit tough guy" old school talk.

I'm a selfish fan, I really am. The idea behind Goldberg/Hogan on free TV and Heyman booking the SD! Six never bothered me. I loved it. I understand money is lost not on PPV and Heyman will book all the good shit by the 2nd PPV so what then? From a business and financial side I get it. The general public needs more than shiny. It has to care and that has historically been larger than life characters and really a bit of lucky timing.

Wrestling is in theory booked as real. We're all in on it, but we want to believe. That's why wrestling portrayed a certain image. Guys you would never fuck with. Slowly but surely the roster turned from "men" into "boys". The old guard thinks they're soft because the younger gens prioritys have changed. Yes their smaller. Yes they choose vidya over drugs and alcohol (in excess I would imagine anyway). They aren't the men you came up with. Maybe you could take the whole locker room out.

Wrestling isn't cool. The only people that seemingly want anything to do with wrestling these days are geeks, dweebs and dorks.

I can relate to that. I never understood it until now. I never *got* why Canadians always liked Canadians just cuz. I never got why people hype of the importance of seeing yourself on screen. I guess as a white guy it didn't matter since so much of our entertainment I saw myself already. The Green Ranger. All the top guys are usually white. ETC. That's what drew me into indy wrestling and I loved everything. The stuff that the general public never got I loved... the crazy "circus" matches, the chikara esque comedy, stiff head drops from random Japan stuff. But I understand the general public doesn't really buy into that. They prefer larger than life characters and a wrestling match isn't necessarily what they seek, whereas we as wrestling fans probably wouldn't be here. As entertaining as Rock was, I'd need more than a promo. The fight!

The stuff I like may not have a lot of mainstream appeal. And as wrestling has gotten less over with the masses they have had no choice but to embrace those "lesser" forms of wrestling because these are all that's left. Larger than life dudes generally aren't wasting away in a "joke" like wrestling. So you just have the geeks, dweebs and nerds. And this is a problem. Listen I know it's fake so I'm just there for the show. I don't really care how they act outside the ring since I'm here for "Jon Moxley" not Jonathan Good. Some people can't buy into them. And it's even harder to do with the whole streaming and social media thing. That was the only way Taker could keep things going for as long as he did. He couldn't enjoy life. He had to be in character and seclude himself.

Even though my wrestling love is dead today. I don't really follow any wrestling, maybe a few matches a year now. I still love that AEW became a thing. That those geeks, dweebs and dorks are doing something. So while I don't watch or know much about it minus some surface level info, I like that it exists. I'm not 1 but not that 1. No, I'm a geek dweeb and a dork.

WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR POINT?

I don't have one. Not really. But I question what does the wrestling fan want? The smarks and leftover fans seemingly favor cruisers and the stuff Vince evidently hates. And for the most part we're all that's left. Cena's gone, so really are kids even watching it anymore? Ratings continue to plummet. Even before covid. Clearly the gen public does not like what it sees. And a good chunk of smarks don't either judging by how we belittle them yearning for REALNESS instead of whatever it is we're getting today.

What does the public want wrestling to be? Is it just a dying industry that refuses to go quietly, so we're actually watching a slow death of DIS BUSINESS?

I don't know but if I don't hit submit I never will. There's gotta be a topic in here somewhere.

Jan 25, 2021 0:44:54 GMT @ness said:

What does the public want wrestling to be? 

I had a co-worker renting a room from me for awhile, and I had the WWE network at the time. My place wasn't big and we had the same schedule so we were doing breakfast at the same time... I would be watching nxt on tv often. He was not a wrestling fan, but holy shit did he love the Ciampa vs Gargano saga. And he was all into the takeover matches. When he would get to my place for the work week often the first thing he would ask is what Ciampa match are we watching. So what do people want? Violence and storytelling. It doesn't matter if the wrestlers are super big. 

Might be right there. Violence and storytelling, basically all the TV dramas we see nowadays. I do remember the Takeovers always being awesome and "feeling" different. Just dunno if they could sustain that momentum with the 10000 hours of content they produce. I guess money simply won't allow them to scale things back and just make 1 thing good instead of spreading it all out.

Jan 25, 2021 1:17:42 GMT @ness said:

Might be right there. Violence and storytelling, basically all the TV dramas we see nowadays. I do remember the Takeovers always being awesome and "feeling" different. Just dunno if they could sustain that momentum with the 10000 hours of content they produce. I guess money simply won't allow them to scale things back and just make 1 thing good instead of spreading it all out.

But when you ask what is wrestling today? I think the answer is kareoke contests and obstacle courses and nonsense like that. And I don't think that's what the average person wants out of wrestling. 

You hit the nail on the head very early on, before descending into madness. 

We want to believe. We know it's fake - what good wrestling is, is a suspension of belief.

" Suspension of disbelief, is the intentional avoidance of critical thinking or logic in examining something surreal, such as a work of fiction, in order to believe it for the sake of enjoyment. "

Wrestling should be a television show : we have characters, we have a plot, motive, intent, long-term archs and build. It should feel like you're watching any other television show, albeit, the wrestling is what ties it together in front of a live crowd. Instead wrestling in 2021 feels like watching Saturday Night Live or a light entertainment show. It's self-aware, it's purposely ironic, the characters exists only within the skits - it's silly - and it celebrates it. Wrestling has always been like that, but when it peaks in quality and/or popularity, it's nailing all those points synonymous with great storytelling. Thus a suspension of belief. 

ie; The Summer of Punk. The Yes! Movement. Gargano v Ciampa. Becky Lynch - The Man.


And.. no one, including some of the workers seem to be taking it seriously. It seems like a means to end to launching an eventual entertainment career, becoming a influencer, being paid to play video games or launching a side business - which is all well and good, as your time in the business and making good money is limited. However, Zelina Vega as example, would rather sell semi-nudes and dress up as an anime character for the enjoyment of perverts than work Wrestlemania or build a credible body of work in the WWE - on top of half the roster losing their minds because their employer, paying them hundreds of thousands of dollars a year mind you, would rather you focus on your work, and not using the WWE registered brand names, imagery & trademarks to sell your side hustle. It's almost as if working for the biggest company in the world, that allows you to live an affluent lifestyle and travel the world is a inconvenience. Hot tip, the reason why 100,000 nerds watch you poorly play video games is because of the WWE. 

I started writing about this topic once or twice before but threw in the towel on what was bound to be a lengthy post. Here is the quickie version.

Modern pro wrestling is basically figure skating. A guy named Mike Oles actually predicted this like 20 years ago. He was mercilessly mocked. He was also right.

Discuss.

Jan 25, 2021 6:06:22 GMT Baker said:

I started writing about this topic once or twice before but threw in the towel on what was bound to be a lengthy post. Here is the quickie version.

Modern pro wrestling is basically figure skating. A guy named Mike Oles actually predicted this like 20 years ago. He was mercilessly mocked. He was also right.

Discuss.

Why wouldn't you describe previous as figure skating? And when would you say it became figure skating?

RVD v Jerry Lynn in ECW was what 'Wonderwall' was to british songwriters of the late 90s.

Over produced, over choreographed, telegraphed, flippy floppy chain wrestling riddled with more reversals than a day training in the Hart dungeon and more fresh air between leg sweeps and opponents than a covid ventilator.

And because people considered this 'good' amongst the shit that was hardcore wrestling, a generation of undersized performers started replicating this style and it later became the standard for TNA's X Division and ROH.

Its currently referred to as "the feeling out process"

Kenny Omega is public enemy number 1.

I'd say it extends back to Eddie Guerrero and Dean Malenko circa 1995, which goes back to the British New Wave and pick up steam when The Dynamite Kid became early rivals with Bret in Stampede and later WWF.

Jan 25, 2021 7:02:46 GMT nazzer said:

Jan 25, 2021 6:06:22 GMT Baker said:

1. Why wouldn't you describe previous as figure skating?
2. And when would you say it became figure skating?

1. Because fans (and wrestlers?) cared less about pulling off flawless triple salchows feats of athleticism to garner high scores from the judges star ratings and more about the (largely good guy vs. bad guy) storylines. Fans were more invested in wins and losses than in seeing a "good match." Wrestling characters, at least the bulk of the main eventers that actually drew money, were just that- CHARACTERS. They largely understood that being good on interviews and coming up with a gimmick people were invested in was more important than performing a picture perfect quadruple axel 450 Splash.

2. It was a slow process from the Malenko/Guerrero series in ECW to the WCW Cruiserweights to the kayfabe breaking Attitude Era to RVD/Lynn to the TLC Matches to the TNA X Division to the US indie scene drifting away from weekend warrior biker types cosplaying their favorite WWF & WCW superstars and moving towards a more Japanese influenced style which ultimately infiltrated WWE to "This Is Awesome" and "You Can't Wrestle" chants to Shawn Michaels Wrestlemania epics to what you see today.

I can't answer exactly when the transition to wrestling as figure skating occurred because I largely drifted away from modern wrestling around 2009, but it seems like the changeover more or less became complete some time between 2011-2013.

Don't get me wrong. I liked most of that stuff I just mentioned once upon a time. Hell, most of it I still like. But the thing is, that stuff only stood out in the first place because it was something different! It was a deviation from the norm of silly gimmicks underneath and musclemen battling fatties on top. But now that it's the predominate style around the world I find it to be the most boring and pointless form of wrestling. Nowadays I'd take heroic musclemen battling evil fatties over "Indie Darling" Johnny Bootsandtights vs. "The Flipmaster" Joey Blacktrunks in a "Good Match" every day of the week, and twice on Mondays.

Look, I'm a wrestling fan. Complaining is what we do. I'm also an old man yelling at clouds. I am well aware of this. I made my peace with wrestling no longer being for me a long time ago. It is what it is. The best I dare hope for from modern wrestling is an unexpected treat like Billy Corgan's NWA.

I have also long subscribed to the idea that wrestling is a live action cartoon largely intended for children. Only weirdos like me stick with this fake fighting crap beyond 7 years. I think you're supposed to outgrow it. And it's fine if you don't agree with my philosophy! If wrestling as figure skating is your thing, that's fine too. Knock yourself out. But it does seem to have driven away all but the hardcores judging by the years (decades?) of declining ratings and interest 

Joey Blacktrunks is the best unsigned talent today.

Jan 25, 2021 17:21:13 GMT Baker said:

I have also long subscribed to the idea that wrestling is a live action cartoon largely intended for children. Only weirdos like me stick with this fake fighting crap beyond 7 years.

This is a fantastic take. I agree. Any era of wrestling is like this. Who's more cartoony than peak Hulk Hogan? Ultimate Warrior? Randy Savage? Ultimate Warrior is not too far off real life He-Man. Listen to their promos. They're all fucking goofballs. How are they fundamentally less dweeby than modern wrestlers? Because they pump themselves full of steroids and snort cocaine instead of playing video games? That's more manly, is it?

Went off on a tangent there. As Baker said, pro-wrestling at its core is fundamentally stupid. The British World of Sport, immensely popular in the 70s and 80s, embraces the stupidity of the concept so much, it basically became a slapstick/silent movie-esque simulation of combat. It's very hard to take seriously, even when it is trying to be serious.

The wrestling of 2020 is stupider than ever, summarised well by Baker's figure skating analogy. I acknowledge that NJPW sometimes (often?) is too excessive, but I love the characters, the long term stories, the matches. It is a lot different to the wrestling of the 90s an the 80s. The wrestlers look, and sometimes act, like anime characters. I've never really watched anime, but I guess that Japanese aesthetic has some mystical appeal.

While the physical aspect of pro-wrestling is fundamentally nonsense, what hooks the viewers is stories. Ultimately, NJPW tells stories far better than any company of the 21st century. Look at the decade-long saga between Kenny Omega and Kota Ibushi, which I hypothesise will pick up again this year. Look at Jay White's ascension. Look at Naito's journey throughout NJPW. These guys take real life events and incorporate it into their wrestling characters. It makes everything a lot more authentic and relatable.

WWE and AEW has been missing that, with a few exceptions. I can relate to dweebs and geeks much more than the tough guys of old, but I'm still not invested in WWE at all. Like someone said, it feels like a bunch of overproduced, unfunny skits, not a comprehensive wrestling show. Just look at The Fiend. Firefly Fun House is literally a pretty lame comedy skit and the wrestler The Fiend is not much better.

Baker, regarding the 'figure skating' transition. For better or for worse I think we would have got to something like this no matter how evolved. Wrestling has always evolved, I'm watched a bunch of matches from the 50-70's and they are nothing like the Ric Flair/Harley Race era of the 80's, just like matches evolved in the 90's. Even in a vacuum outside of pop culture we still would have seen a evolution of what wrestling looks like. And if it didn't evolve, then eventually we'd get to the point of people on internet forums bemoaning the lack of fans due to the industry not evolving. And the death of the manly mans wrestler was always going to happen in todays culture.
The world around us demanded concussion protocols; so wrestling had to adjust. The world around us sees people embracing styles they see in UFC, so wrestling adjusted. We see shows like american ninja warrior, so we expect other athletes to adjust. Athletes in general are faster and more talented, many sports leagues (like the national hockey league) have been trending towards a more skill base speed game that allows smaller guys. And so why wouldn't the general populous be willing to embrace this in wrestling? Now maybe you'd suggest that yes that should work, but its the style the young guys are doing that makes it lame flippy shit. But I don't know man, I think the style is just fine, it's just a matter of the content not fitting into the pop culture. Attitude era fit into the pop culture of that time. Todays's product doesn't fit into pop culture. I don't know how to make it pop culure trending, what with being a 40 year old and all.

And I really think AEW's audience demographic really makes it seem like it has the chance to become cool again. The crowd is (was) there having fun at the live shows, and young people are watching it.

Just a bunch of rambling, whatever.

And I don't think of it as figure skating, but 'wrestle dancing', and Amazing Red in TNA/ROH was the first wrestler that made me just fucking hate watching a wrestling match.

*I wrote 99% of this post before I read nazzer 's latest. Maybe I'll come back to that one more in depth later. I liked Amazing Red!!!! He was unique for his time. And I actually agree that fans would be complaining if the business hadn't changed. We're wrestling fans. Bitching is what we do. 

Jan 25, 2021 20:16:44 GMT Emperor said:

I agree. Any era of wrestling is like this. Who's more cartoony than peak Hulk Hogan? Ultimate Warrior? Randy Savage? Ultimate Warrior is not too far off real life He-Man.

I agree. They're Exhibit A in my "wrestling as live action cartoon" theory. Heck, those wrestlers I grew up on are likely the reason I devised that theory in the first place. Wrestling as live action cartoon is not meant to be a bad thing. It is the ideal. I infinitely prefer it to wrestling as figure skating.

I am more nerd than tough guy. Yet I prefer the "manly men" of yore to the video gamers of today. It's fine if you don't. Different strokes for different folks.

I don't want anybody to take this as an endorsement of steroids and cocaine. These are not good things. But the best wrestling was fueled by steroids and cocaine. Nobody is going to change my mind on this. 

The British World of Sport, immensely popular in the 70s and 80s, embraces the stupidity of the concept so much, it basically became a slapstick/silent movie-esque simulation of combat

Jan 25, 2021 7:57:20 GMT NATH45 said:

Instead wrestling in 2021 feels like watching Saturday Night Live or a light entertainment show. It's self-aware, it's purposely ironic

Bolded is the worst. Becoming self aware is one of the worst things that ever happened to wrestling. This also applies to wrestling as figure skating where wrestlers go out with the sole intent of having a Five Star Match of the Year. Breaking the fourth wall in wrestling makes me want to break a wall.

Some examples of this nonsense from eras of wrestling I actually enjoyed are the ring announcer killing the Parts Unknown gimmick when introducing Big Show in the Spring of 2000 and Joey Styles no selling a Stevie Richards Claw on an ECW show. Way to kill the last 50 years in wrestling, ya jerkoffs.

My favorite wrestling is absurd. It embraces the inherent silliness of men and women in tights pretending to fight. It goes gleefully over the top. But here's the important thing. It takes itself seriously while doing so. In that self contained universe, nobody bats an eye at Undertaker being a literal Dead Man, Papa Shango doing voodoo, most of the wrestlers holding down a second job, or the Ultimate Warrior.....existing. Again, because pro wrestling is a live action cartoon for children.

I can only speak for myself, but I am far more willing to play along with a world of ridiculousness which takes itself seriously. That self aware "lol it's all fake" nonsense is an immediate turnoff. New Generation WWF and WOW are of the latter. They were worlds of camp but the wrestlers and announcers treated it with a sense of gravitas that made me willing suspend my disbelief and gleefully play along. WWE has historically been great at this. For a long time they were able to create this sense of epic grandeur for the most ridiculous things. 

I admit it's a fine line that can easily be crossed into ironic self aware bullcrap*. And of course you don't have to agree with any of this. I'm just one guy with admittedly odd taste in pro wrestling and most other things.

I never really understood the people who want more realistic wrestling. I feel like they're fighting a losing battle. Wrestling is fake by nature. If you want realism, why not just go watch MMA?

*Which brings me to a point Strobe and I have touched on in the past. I once wrote something like "wrestling seems to be dying a slow death....and maybe it should?" While Strobe once wrote something like "pro wrestling may be strictly a 20th Century phenomenon." I think we were both on the right track. The entire concept of pro wrestling is built on lies if you think about. It worked once upon a time with an audience that either wasn't in the know, or more likely was willing to suspend their disbelief and play along. Due to the rise of the internet, the modern fan is hip to all of pro wrestling's tricks. Because of that, they're less willing to go along with storylines than the fans of yesteryear. 

How many times were fans genuinely invested in WWE storylines over the past decade? From hanging around PW, and occasionally visiting other places, it doesn't seem like very many. I'm not even sure there was one per year. CM Punk after his shoot in 2011. Daniel Bryan in 2013-14. Maybe Kofi Kingston a few years back? Bayley in NXT? Perhaps Ciampa/Gargano for a while? Nothing else comes to mind. Help me out.

The fact that it only took one show to get me invested in Aldis/Tim Storm is a big reason why I got hooked on the NWA in 2019. They took two wrestlers I had barely even heard of and got me to care more than I had cared about a WWE storyline since.....probably Taker/Michaels at WM 25.

Anyway, I'm not sure you could pull off my "serious world of camp" even if you wanted to. The fans would likely never go for it. Even I may be guilty of this. CHIKARA seems like the sort of thing I would have been into given my philosophy on pro wrestling. But I could never take it seriously. I always assumed it was intended to be the ironic, self aware sort of wrestling that I despise. But maybe it wasn't? Whether or not Quack and Company took it seriously, I never could. Wrestling Ants and Ice Creams was too much even for me. 

Realism in wrestling is a lost cause from the start. The modern fan fancies themselves too sophisticated for my ideal live action cartoon brand of wrestling with larger than life characters and genuine investment in good guy vs. bad guy storylines. So all that's left is emotionless wrestling as figure skating. Perhaps this was always destined to be the end game for professional wrestling?

Wrestling to me feels like it's destined to go the Wheel of Fortune route. It's a forever staple that people are familiar with, but the presentation is simply sterile. All the episodes are the same and that's what you want. Nobody but old boomers is seeking out Wheel. But if you've got the TV on and happen to see it, it makes for excellent background noise. The days of killer ratings, sold out arenas and mainstream appeal for talk shows are done.

Perhaps somewhere along the way they stop touring as much, stick to a few choice locations, ditch the whole LIIIIIIIIIIIVE model and just stick to churning out content to be put in the can for quick and easy network cable syndicated filler.

I feel like I had some good points to make in the above post. It's just that, as usual with me, half of them were forgotten as I went off on tangent after tangent, while others are buried amidst that wall of text. Meh. Wouldn't be a Baker post without that happening.

Anyway, let's talk about the Attitude Era while I'm still in a ranting mood. Now this forum is nowhere near as bad as some other places on the internet, but I always chuckle when I see people longing for a return to the "gritty realism" of the Attitude Era. First of all, never trust anybody unironically using the phrase "gritty realism." Secondly, I'm just over here scratching my head while thinking to myself "What realism??" when I read these posts or comments. The Attitude Era was just as ridiculous as the Golden Age and New Generation Era which preceded it! The only difference is the AE was ridiculous in a trashy Jerry Springer sort of way whereas those other eras were ridiculous in a Saturday morning cartoon sort of way. 

The AE still had second job gimmicks. How is a wrestling pimp or wrestling porn star any more "realistic" than a wrestling hog farmer or a wrestling garbage man? The AE had Vampires! Even the Golden & New Gen Eras never had vampires! We had Undertaker shooting lightning bolts at Kane. We had Kane's entire existence. In real life Steve Austin would have a rap sheet longer than Great Khali's arm and served some serious time. And he's far from the only one. The AE had multiple on screen attempted homicides! Austin, Taker, or Rikishi were never prosecuted while HHH showed up on Raw the next day like nothing happened after being dropped 30 feet in a car. 24/7 Hardcore Title anyone? The HHH/Steph wedding? Didn't Hawk once "commit suicide" by also falling 30 feet or did I imagine that? If so, whatever happened with that angle? Body cast? Was he written off tv? Serious questions. The AE of 98-99 didn't even have the internal consistency of the preceding eras due to booking most episodes of Raw on the fly and having 3 face/heel turns per week. 

Now these things aren't necessarily bad. Remember, I don't think wrestling should be particularly realistic. It's just that I find this idea of the AE being a pinnacle of wrestling realism laughable.

Tbh the modern era is the most "realistic" since at least the 80s Hogan boom, if not ever. The vast majority of the roster are just regular people with regular names and the gimmick of being a wrestler who is good at wrestling. And it fucking sucks. 

Yeah it does seem like everyone is just regular people now. No larger than life stars. No one even really uses nicknames either. You're just first and last name.

I'm one of those doomed-to-fail fans who prefer professional wrestling to be realistic, sports-like.

It sounds paradoxical in nature because pro-wrestling is fundamentally not realistic at all. It's a world where pushing someone causes them to run and bounce off the ropes ad infinitum until they are stopped by force. Where the correct reaction to someone dropping down chest first in front of you is to hop over them instead of crushing them. Where the referee can't punish a wrestler if he doesn't see an illegal act, even if the act is clearly audible or is blatantly obvious in some other way. Where a wrestler can trap you in an inescapable hold, which should be enough to win any sort of wrestling match, but you can escape by touching the ropes with any part of your body. Where you can punch someone in the chin, kick them in the jaw, drop them on their heads 50 times each and they are still perfectly fine.

I accept all these things. In this universe where these wacky rules hold, I want internal realism. I want my wrestlers to behave like sportsmen. I want the majority of my feuds to be a sporting contest. I've never really liked how WWE adds some convoluted/forced personal spin to every single feud. Randy Orton becomes #1 contender against Drew McIntyre. They've never interacted before. Orton suddenly hates McIntyre and everything he stands for and wants to murder his family and children. Orton loses. Six months later he earns another title shot against a different champion. Let's say Seth Rollins. He suddenly hates Seth Rollins and wants to murder his family. Why? It's fucking ludicrous. AEW is similar, with Miro starting a personal feud with Best Friends because they destroyed an arcade machine that was set up in a wrestling arena for no fucking reason other than to set up that very feud.

I'm loving Roman Reigns now because he is a realistic psychopath abuser. It all started when his own cousin Jey Uso earned a title shot. This led organically to Reigns claiming himself the "Tribal Chief", and defeated his own family member to prove it. That got to his head and now Reigns is this amazing heel. The current feud with Kevin Owens is getting a bit too forced-personal for my liking, but it kinda makes sense since family is a key facet of Reigns' character.

NJPW has the right balance. There are some wackier characters, but the ultimate motivation of everyone on the roster is to be the best wrestler they can be, to be the champion. When they lose, they don't make excuses (except the heels), they talk realistically about why they lost and how they will be better next time. Wrestlers candidly talk about their rivals, how they feel about them, and so on. Personal feuds are rare, as they should be. Characters develop organically according to their circumstances, both in kayfabe and sometimes in the real world. It's wonderful. Sometimes the in-ring work is too over the top, too figure skatey for my liking, but most of it is really good.

Also the reason I love Bret Hart. He told it straight. He was the only straight man in a world full of stupid gimmicks and caricatures and braindead muscleheads. Austin was a pretty straight man too, especially before the feud with Vince.

I'm not sure I explained or resolved my paradoxical requirement for wrestling to be realistic, but there you go.

I do think Chikara did have a nice mix of both the silliness and REAL MEN HAVING REAL MATCHES. I do understand that a lot of people simply can't get past invisible grenades so they wouldn't buy into the seriousness. Sorta like them abusing the "Owen Voice" so often that it means nothing when they try and illicit emotion from us.

I think on your point Baker, on wanting realism in wrestling vs MMA.

Imagine you've seen a really good UFC fight, it had drama, tension and told an excellent story. This may happen once every few months in MMA and very few go down in legend like a Griffin v Bonnar.

Imagine if you had the ability to replicate this every night, expand on this and build on this...

Enter, Pro. Wrestling.

I'm not suggesting everyone strip down and minic Matt Riddle, but they can treat the business as an athlete competition between two warriors instead of a circus act.

I like all forms of wrestling when done well. From the crazy, ludicrous characters to the shoot style uber realistic guys. Like others have said here, you just want it to take itself seriously. This is definitely something Cornette has correct and people don't seem to get when they try to say that he has been part of plenty comedy in wrestling. There is absolutely a place for comedy in wrestling, like in all things in life. In fact, I'd say it is essential. But it shouldn't be a mockery or laughing at itself or like a terrible skit. It should be a manager being humiliated. Hell, even when one of his wrestlers would go and hug Cornette while retreating, that was done with the intention of getting the crowd to laugh at the heel wrestler they are supposed to be cheering against. To compare this to Joey Ryan is ludicrous.

Jan 25, 2021 21:32:06 GMT Baker said:

*Which brings me to a point Strobe and I have touched on in the past. I once wrote something like "wrestling seems to be dying a slow death....and maybe it should?" While Strobe once wrote something like "pro wrestling may be strictly a 20th Century phenomenon." I think we were both on the right track. The entire concept of pro wrestling is built on lies if you think about. It worked once upon a time with an audience that either wasn't in the know, or more likely was willing to suspend their disbelief and play along. Due to the rise of the internet, the modern fan is hip to all of pro wrestling's tricks. Because of that, they're less willing to go along with storylines than the fans of yesteryear. 

Cornette recently brought up something interesting that I didn't know. There was a big newspaper report about wrestling not being legit in New York in the 30s and it basically killed the town for wrestling. Among English-speakers. But since New York was so diverse and you had immigrants who pretty much only spoke their native language and had their own newspapers, they weren't exposed to this. And New York was re-built using Antonino Rocca and that ethnic babyface idea stuck through the likes of Bruno and Pedro.

I have never thought that, barring a tiny percentage, that people thought pro wrestling was real. Even in the early 20th century when it was all that old school hooking stuff, the sheer length of the matches must've had most doubting. But there is an argument that wrestling keeping up the facade of being real has been a key element to its success. So it doesn't just need to take itself seriously internally, but the wrestlers need to keep up the pretence outwith the wrestling itself. Everyone would be pissed if Walter White started acting like Hal in the middle of a scene for no reason and then looked at the camera and winked. But nobody needs Bryan Cranston to act like he is actually Walter White off screen. But is that actually required for wrestling to be especially popular? Maybe. And in the modern world of smart phones and social media, that isn't something that is realistic to expect.

Jan 25, 2021 22:34:19 GMT Baker said:

Anyway, let's talk about the Attitude Era while I'm still in a ranting mood. Now this forum is nowhere near as bad as some other places on the internet, but I always chuckle when I see people longing for a return to the "gritty realism" of the Attitude Era. First of all, never trust anybody unironically using the phrase "gritty realism." Secondly, I'm just over here scratching my head while thinking to myself "What realism??" when I read these posts or comments. The Attitude Era was just as ridiculous as the Golden Age and New Generation Era which preceded it! The only difference is the AE was ridiculous in a trashy Jerry Springer sort of way whereas those other eras were ridiculous in a Saturday morning cartoon sort of way. 

Swearing, middle fingers, beer, boobies. Gritty! So gritty!

The Attitude Era certainly didn't help wrestling overall. To make a buck back in the day, people used to hot-shot promotions. Book years' worth of stuff in a few months so that you bring in incredible money. Then convince someone not smart to wrestling with money to buy your promotion based on the numbers you've been pulling in. But you've basically burned out the town and the new guy won't be able to draw shit. Wait a while and you can buy it back for a fraction of what you sold it for and hopefully the town/region has recovered for you to start drawing fans again.

The Attitude Era basically did that nationally and internationally for wrestling as a whole. We all saw basically everything that could be done angle and story-wise multiple times in a really short span. When you've got a man being hung and Michael Cole is saying "is this symbolic?" before calmly throwing to the video package for the main event, you really are in trouble.

Jan 25, 2021 22:58:47 GMT Emperor said:

Where the correct reaction to someone dropping down chest first in front of you is to hop over them instead of crushing them.

If you watch old enough matches, guys are really throwing themselves at the ground to try to trip their opponent. It is actually a really cool spot. So jumping over is the safe move to avoid being tripped, as trying to turn it into a stomp or something could just end up hurting yourself. Over time, it has just become part of the language of wrestling. Irish whip, drop down (rather than throwing yourself down and towards your opponent), opponent jumps over.

I've got more to say here, but not the time right now.

Just an extra touch on the ethnic thing in New York, it was Vince Sr that suggested the Irish name Hogan to Terry Bollea. Makes me think it was easier to promote and book wrestling back in the day when it was local. Far easier to tailor it to a smaller selection of people and their likes, dislikes, prejudices. As an aside, I remember someone (maybe over on the PWO forums) calling Kevin Owens an ethnic babyface for neckbeards and that tickled me.

I'm enjoying the idea that Vince, by the war with WCW, got unwittingly pulled into the first step of an old carny move. If only he realised and finished it off. How much do we think Vince could've sold the WWF for around WrestleMan X-Seve (we are gonna get this over 🤯)? And the fraction for which he could've bought it back 2-3 years later?

Obviously everyone knows a big problem with the WWE is that it is a dystopian-like corporation where everyone is made to act a certain way on screen and obey and only talk WWEspeak, which enters some verbal uncanny valley where nobody sounds like a real person. Is that a problem with AEW as well? In general, society is trying to make things more inclusive for people, but overcorrecting at times, which is to be expected unfortunately. Does AEW overproduce and make sure everyone speaks a specific way so as to try to ensure nobody could be offended but at the same time this ends up that nobody could be excited either?

In relation to who are wrestlers today, it makes sense that it is only fans really. When you had the territory system, if you were an athlete or a bouncer or general badass who went to a gym nearly anywhere in the States, you would've had decent probability of bumping into a wrestler at some point. Get chatting, they tell you that you could make it as a wrestler and make big money. Countless stories like that. That isn't happening today.

What is killing wrestling in both big feds to me is the lack of any meaningful storytelling. Creative basically sucks and at best they can write maybe four guys at a decent level at the expense of everyone else. Guys do not get storylines, the lack of storylines means people do not build characters and the combination of the two means really, no one gets meaningful matches. There are WAY too many people on most shows, with half the roster sitting home for any given show. Look at the 80's and 90's when wrestling was hot, and it was nearly unheard of the top guys just sitting at home.

CHIKARA proved the solution to a lot of this, is to do stables and company wide arcs. In the past when wrestle was blazing hot this was what was going on. Had groups like NWO, Corporation, DX, Ministry, allowing the use of multiple guys in a short segment and some massive storyline driving the company, like Corporation vs Austin and friends, NWO vs WCW, ect. In these situations the story write themselves. Corporate guy is fighting non-corporate guy. NWO guys is fighting ECW guy. It is an instant story and with an instantly group for the wrestlers to be a part of. CHIKARA for ages did this profections. CHIAKRA vs EVIL GROUP X was repeated like 10 times until the Flood and everyone came back united and it worked every time. It was only when Quack moved away from this that CHIKARA started to wane.

Jan 26, 2021 13:26:46 GMT c said:

What is killing wrestling in both big feds to me is the lack of any meaningful storytelling. Creative basically sucks and at best they can write maybe four guys at a decent level at the expense of everyone else. Guys do not get storylines, the lack of storylines means people do not build characters and the combination of the two means really, no one gets meaningful matches. There are WAY too many people on most shows, with half the roster sitting home for any given show. Look at the 80's and 90's when wrestling was hot, and it was nearly unheard of the top guys just sitting at home.

CHIKARA proved the solution to a lot of this, is to do stables and company wide arcs. In the past when wrestle was blazing hot this was what was going on. Had groups like NWO, Corporation, DX, Ministry, allowing the use of multiple guys in a short segment and some massive storyline driving the company, like Corporation vs Austin and friends, NWO vs WCW, ect. In these situations the story write themselves. Corporate guy is fighting non-corporate guy. NWO guys is fighting ECW guy. It is an instant story and with an instantly group for the wrestlers to be a part of. CHIKARA for ages did this profections. CHIAKRA vs EVIL GROUP X was repeated like 10 times until the Flood and everyone came back united and it worked every time. It was only when Quack moved away from this that CHIKARA started to wane.

So you're saying we're way overdue for A Nation of Domination reboot!?

Its the classic civil war arch c

Easy booking week in week out. And its a great way to rest talent ie: Owens feuds with Reigns.. Kev works Uso #2, Reigns works whoever is on team KO the next week and so on.. guys get a break from taking bumps but it continues the arch.

Jan 25, 2021 22:58:47 GMT Emperor said:

Also the reason I love Bret Hart. He told it straight. He was the only straight man in a world full of stupid gimmicks and caricatures and braindead muscleheads. 

But isn't Bret being the only straight man in a world full of cartoon characters the reason he stood out in the first place? I've seen a lot of folks say the reason they were drawn to Bret in the first place is because he was a "real person." There's no way Bret stands out so much in a world full of other "real people" sharing his "guy who is good at wrestling" gimmick.

Jan 26, 2021 9:25:34 GMT Strobe said:

Swearing, middle fingers, beer, boobies. Gritty! So gritty!

The Attitude Era certainly didn't help wrestling overall. To make a buck back in the day, people used to hot-shot promotions. Book years' worth of stuff in a few months so that you bring in incredible money. Then convince someone not smart to wrestling with money to buy your promotion based on the numbers you've been pulling in. But you've basically burned out the town and the new guy won't be able to draw shit. Wait a while and you can buy it back for a fraction of what you sold it for and hopefully the town/region has recovered for you to start drawing fans again.

The Attitude Era basically did that nationally and internationally for wrestling as a whole. We all saw basically everything that could be done angle and story-wise multiple times in a really short span. When you've got a man being hung and Michael Cole is saying "is this symbolic?" before calmly throwing to the video package for the main event, you really are in trouble.

This is all true. I used to scoff at the Cornette types who claimed the AE killed the business. Now I know they were right. 

Never thought of Vince pulling that old carny move before. He totally should have done it. 

Jan 26, 2021 10:14:55 GMT Strobe said:

As an aside, I remember someone (maybe over on the PWO forums) calling Kevin Owens an ethnic babyface for neckbeards and that tickled me.

I stole that line once or twice for PW posts.

Which brings me back to the nerds vs. manly men debate. There was a thread on the old DeathValleyDriver forum around 2005 on the influx of nerds in wrestling. It was triggered by a trash bag wearing indie wrestler named Arik Cannon who was hot for a minute in the mid 2000s calling his finisher the Glimmering Warlock. Debate got pretty heated, but most agreed the influx of nerds in wrestling would ultimately prove to be a good thing. What really sold me was somebody pointing out the only nerds in wrestling back in the day were Jerry Lawler and Bret Hart and they ended up being two of the greatest to ever do it. 

So I was into all the indie "nerd" gimmicks back in the early-mid 2000s. "Silver Bullet" Shawn Sheridan names his moves after video games! So amusing! LMAO at that wacky wrestling nerd Jimmy Jacobs! Hahaha Wildside's Sal Rinauro is such a hoot with all his tv show references! 

But then it became the norm and I soon got incredibly bored + annoyed with "nerdy" wrestlers ironically doing old school spots and calling their finisher The Excitebike or what have you.

Enter Ryback. Ryback was the sort of wrestler I loathed for the longest time. One dimensional jacked up musclemen who didn't pay their dues~! were boring....when they were the norm. But Ryback was a breath of fresh air by the time he came around. Granted, it's not like I watched a ton of Ryback either, but I'd check out the occasional Ryback match on Youtube because he was something different in that time and place. That's more than can be said for 90% of his contemporaries. Or to put it another way, if WWE had regularly featured Ryback squashing nerdy Cruiserweights over the last 8 years then I'd have watched a lot more WWE over the last 8 years.

I don't even know what my point is anymore. Let see....

I guess the ultimate point of all my rambling in this thread over the past two days is that I prefer to see balance in the force. When the pendulum swings too far in one direction I want it to swing back. I also think "lesser" promotions should carve out their own identities rather than doing whatever the #1 promotion (usually WWE) is doing. When WWE was all about Sports Entertainment it made sense to be "the real rasslin' promotion" or "the hardcore promotion" or "the old school promotion" etc. Now that WWE is largely the workrate promotion I think their competitors should go in the opposite direction.

I think my contrarian personality probably comes into play as well.  When everybody else zigs, I zag. It's just the way I am. Right now wrestling is all about nerdy normals striving for star ratings. So I naturally want over the top characters engaged in wacky storylines and/or epic blood feuds.

If left to my own devices I would no doubt lean towards the zany sports entertainment side of things, but I ultimately believe in the something for everyone Three Ring Circus approach to wrestling. So of course I would have some normal people with normal names doing the "good at wrestling" gimmick to ground things.  

Jan 27, 2021 0:49:17 GMT Baker said:

Jan 25, 2021 22:58:47 GMT Emperor said:

Also the reason I love Bret Hart. He told it straight. He was the only straight man in a world full of stupid gimmicks and caricatures and braindead muscleheads. 

But isn't Bret being the only straight man in a world full of cartoon characters the reason he stood out in the first place? I've seen a lot of folks say the reason they were drawn to Bret in the first place is because he was a "real person." There's no way Bret stands out so much in a world full of other "real people" sharing his "guy who is good at wrestling" gimmick.

Sure, Bret may not stand out as much, but if I'm watching 90s WWF I'm tuning in for Bret Hart and tuning out for everything else. Plus I think Bret Hart is so great he would stand out among a roster of "good wrestlers" anyway. NJPW is mostly full of "good wrestlers", but they each have their own unique wrestling style, charisma, and journey, just like a swathe of characters in your favourite novel or favourite TV show. I prefer my human beings to be human beings with personality and nuance, not one-dimensional cartoon characters. That's part of what I'm getting at with my preference for realistic wrestling.

Isn't the recent NWA also just a promotion full of good wrestlers? Yeah there are some wackier characters like Zicky Dice and Question Mark, but they are not the majority. On a personal note, while I loved Question Mark the first time I saw him, the gimmick got old real fast. Caricature wrestlers are not for me. Ricky Starks is a relatively bland "good wrestler" guy but in the long term he impresses me far more than Question Mark.

Just feeling more and more like they're just a quantity product at this point. Get content in the can and nothing more.

To me, Bret was at his best near the end of his run. His feud with Austin was his peak work. That WM 13 match was Bret more vicious than he ever was and proving he could hang with the changing product.

Jan 25, 2021 7:02:46 GMT nazzer said:

Jan 25, 2021 6:06:22 GMT Baker said:

I started writing about this topic once or twice before but threw in the towel on what was bound to be a lengthy post. Here is the quickie version.

Modern pro wrestling is basically figure skating. A guy named Mike Oles actually predicted this like 20 years ago. He was mercilessly mocked. He was also right.

Discuss.

Why wouldn't you describe previous as figure skating? And when would you say it became figure skating?

Two thoughts:

 - It's supposed to look like it hurts. Ideally it shouldn't hurt at all, of course, but I shouldn't be watching punches miss by inches or (in a non comedy match) a 125 pound dude jump onto a dozen wrestlers and they all fall over in pain. A moonsault where the wrestler lands on the opponent's legs. Chops get pops not because they're big moves -- in universe they're the weakest /lowest ranked move -- but because it looks like it hurts and can't be faked.

 - The "You F'ed Up" chant. In real sports things don't always look pretty. The quarterback throws a football but it looks a little wobbly. A basketball player passes the ball but it bounces off someone's leg. These sorts of things happen in actual athletic competitions and it's just understood that these things happen but in pro wrestling if you have to bail on a suplex because you don't have a good grip then here come the chants.