Mouth is dry. Let's get this in before I finish the other half!

I can't remember the last time a heel got heat from me. Like the good kind of heat where I'm invested in them doing bad things and want them to get theirs from the good guy. For wrestling it almost seems like the story, the build and all that is SECONDARY to the match. Like I don't know much about puro wrestling and I know they have storylines in theory and do backstage interviews sportslike... but unlike WWE their shows never feature promos (that aren't done like after a match in the ring calling someone out) and backstage skits. Yes they have press conferences and post-match but those always felt more sportslike and less "scripted" like WWE. I've only seen the BIG SHOWS so I dunno if their secondary shows do the WWE way? Like is Ibushi standing in his locker room warming up and then someone barges in? Does that western shit happen? ANSWER ME! Or don't and my point stands. Which is with wrestling I'm really here for good matches over any storyline. Yes a defined heel and face is needed for wrestling and that's what separates a truly good match from indy spotwork... but watching I can barely tell if someone is a heel or not in a match.

And it started making me think... maybe we see TOO MUCH of wrestlers these days. 20 hrs of LIVE TV, segments on news/recap shows on the network, twitch shit and other social media, cons, etc. With acting things aren't perpetually in one universe for much. A few seasons and things end and people move on to other projects. With wrestling IT NEVER STOPS. Roman Reigns is always gonna be Reigns. Heel or face, he's not a new character. There's only so much you can do to gain heat, so very much a SIMPSONS DID IT feeling for any heel heat. Backstage attack, cheating, bad mouthing the crowd... so if they try just being arrogant and run down people... well that just makes them an entertaining promo. And I want to hear it, but it does not make me automatically want them beat up.

Sometimes said WWE can't make any faces since they rely so much on HEAT, but is it even? Why is it with wrestling I have to "force" and turn my brain off to enjoy it? I have to "play along" in order to boo a character. Yet if I was a great show I'm INVESTED in it. Yes I know it's make believe but I can still find myself hating someone. Wanting comeuppance. With wrestling I don't react to things I'm supposed to boo. I either don't care, or find it entertaining and side wrongly. Maybe it's just not for me anymore since all I cared about after a while was just matches?

Yeah this in response to Big Pete (not MY POTY!) saying AEW doesn't have a heel he loves to hate.

Does anyone?

JBL last legit heel?

Maybe wrestling truly IS for kids. Like I have to force myself to boo someone like I would an episode of Paw Patrol to play along with a kid.

Wrestling doesn't belong on Spike or TNT... Nick Jr.

Jan 29, 2021 23:11:10 GMT @ness said:

Maybe wrestling truly IS for kids. Like I have to force myself to boo someone like I would an episode of Paw Patrol to play along with a kid.

Wrestling doesn't belong on Spike or TNT... Nick Jr.

I like this idea. That guy from Blue's Clues is definitely a heel.

Jan 29, 2021 23:34:32 GMT 🤯 said:

Jan 29, 2021 23:11:10 GMT @ness said:

Maybe wrestling truly IS for kids. Like I have to force myself to boo someone like I would an episode of Paw Patrol to play along with a kid.

Wrestling doesn't belong on Spike or TNT... Nick Jr.

I like this idea. That guy from Blue's Clues is definitely a heel.

And NOBODY bought into the next guy. Like at least he had GO AWAY HEAT.

Heels aren't heels because they have their entire livelihoods riding on t-shirt sales.

Heels aren't heels, because the moment they heil Hitler or kick a Mexican back over the border someone gets offended.

Wrestling also sits in a little niche where those who mock wrestling for being 'fake' can't distinguish reality from fiction. Take the angle between Del Rio and Jack Swagger years ago, in which he and Colter were forced to break character and explain how wrestling works to the offended few. Despite racially insensitive, political subjects and often violent and sexual content being part of some of the most acclaimed television programs and movies.

That, and there aren't any good babyfaces anymore.

So no none of that happens in NJPW. NJPW retains the sports like presentation and since they have a different culture to the United States they're nowhere near as dramatic as the US scene. They also don't have to write weekly television or in fact have to worry about television since NJPW airs or at least used to air at some graveyard timeslot on the early hours of Saturday morning.

Heels still exist, it's just that they're becoming far less common. As it currently stands, Roman Reigns is the torch bearer for what a modern heel should be. He doesn't go around trolling fans while embarrassing himself over and over again, he's supremely confident in his ability but he takes liberties that rub people the wrong way. You want to see somebody triumph over him to knock him down a couple of pegs.

That's what good heat is, you want that satisfaction of schadenfreude to see these guys fall.

There's also a difference between good heat and cheap heat. The Joker got the good kind of heat, he was entertaining to watch but at the end of the day you still want Batman to triumph. Compare and contrast that to Doomsday in Batman vs. Superman and nobody cared because it was the most obviously bland type of heat.

At the end of the day it's all about adding stakes to a match. You're always going to have some folks who enjoy the craft of a good UFC fight, but way more people are going to tune in and watch a Connor McGregor fight because he makes his fights matter.

Another good example is Star Wars. Compare the lightsabre fights from the prequels to the classics and without a doubt the prequels were better laid out. However they don't stick out as much as they should because you're not as invested in the characters. Obi Wan dying was devastating and made Vader an even bigger threat than before, the Darth Maul fight while cool on paper was nowhere near as memorable.

On your point Big Pete, in referencing Star Wars and the Joker - the heels remained heels all the way through - in today's business, a heel may be a heel for a year or two and then switches back. There's no longevity, it's almost a clean slate when a heel turns babyface, all is forgiven until their next turn. Your criminal past is wiped clean.

History has shown that it can be effective if it's timed and executed well. If we take something like Austin at Wrestlemania X-7, the reason it failed is because fans were just happy to have Austin back and were excited to see him back after HHH and Angle basically dominated the previous year. Contrast to Austin's babyface turn in 97 where fans were eager to get behind this new bad-ass and they flipped the entire company on it's head by having Bret and Shawn, two of their biggest faces turn heel with Taker following suit not long after. It all made sense and led to some of the best match-ups in history.

Roman Reigns and Jay White are two fantastic heels in the modern era. @pete has already excellently detailed why Reigns is great.

What Reigns and White have in common is that they're both really great wrestlers in kayfabe. They don't need to cheat to win, but they do. Why? Because they're happy to get ahead any way they can. They don't care how they win, as long as they win.

That said, I do actually like Jay White because he's a phenomenal wrestler, but I can also see that he's great at riling up the Japanese crowds. Not just because he cheats and talks shit, just because of the way he is. He's a dickhead, through and through. He also doesn't break character. Check out this interview he did before Wrestle Kingdom. Fantastic.

www.njpw1972.com/88403

Broadly speaking, I agree with Ness. There aren't many truly despicable heels. Wrestling fans appreciate good talent, so if a heel does heeling real well, they're likely to be cheered. Roman Reigns has overcome this. He's so utterly vile, so remorseles, so irredeemable, that even a Reigns mark like myself wants to see him get his just desserts. Not by Kevin Owens though, fuck that guy.

Also @ness makes a great point about having to sometimes force your brain to be dumber to enjoy wrestling. I find I have some experiences like this when watching AEW. Even when watching NJPW it's not often I'm truly immersed in the action. Guess that's just the pro-wrestling way.

T-shirt sales is a good point. I guess a few years back we could cite Ciampa as an effective heel in the meta sense seeing as he supposedly didn't want merch released since he made it his mission to be hated. In the era of sponsorships and getting what you can because the ship can hit land at any time... unless that's putting you as the top heel it's just not gonna find many takers.

Going to echo some of NATH45 points.

The lack of good relatable babyfaces. If you aren't invested in the babyfaces when a heel does something you really don't care. And if you side with the heel point of view you going to cheer for that person over the babyface who personality doesn't seem real.

Trying to get the crowd to hate you without going to far. The example that will always come back to me is Jinder Mahal mocking Shinsuke speech. And the crowd chanting that is too far. Cornette said AEW could make a lot of money using the controversy about transgender athletes, but imagine the backlash if they did.

I thought Seth and MJF(pre Jericho stuff) did really well as modern heels.

Jan 30, 2021 17:46:39 GMT X-zero said:

Going to echo some of NATH45 points.

The lack of good relatable babyfaces. If you aren't invested in the babyfaces when a heel does something you really don't care. And if you side with the heel point of view you going to cheer for that person over the babyface who personality doesn't seem real.

Trying to get the crowd to hate you without going to far. The example that will always come back to me is Jinder Mahal mocking Shinsuke speech. And the crowd chanting that is too far. Cornette said AEW could make a lot of money using the controversy about transgender athletes, but imagine the backlash if they did.

I thought Seth and MJF(pre Jericho stuff) did really well as modern heels.

Just wanted to emphasize the point about how we can't go too far anymore. 

Mohammed hassan was a fantastic true heel. But the second he went 'too far' the character was removed from the company, but he would have been a legendary true heel. 
JBL highstepping doing the Nazi salute, that's a heel move right there. But you can't do that shit on tv. 

We can't have true heels that get garbage thrown at them in the ring because we can't offend people anymore. 

Jan 30, 2021 17:46:39 GMT X-zero said:

Going to echo some of NATH45 points.

The lack of good relatable babyfaces. If you aren't invested in the babyfaces when a heel does something you really don't care. And if you side with the heel point of view you going to cheer for that person over the babyface who personality doesn't seem real.

Trying to get the crowd to hate you without going to far. The example that will always come back to me is Jinder Mahal mocking Shinsuke speech. And the crowd chanting that is too far. Cornette said AEW could make a lot of money using the controversy about transgender athletes, but imagine the backlash if they did.

I thought Seth and MJF(pre Jericho stuff) did really well as modern heels.

I've always wonder why they haven't jumped on the trans-gender stuff, and booked a beat down angle. I think I mentioned it with Sonny Kiss - a heel, or faction purposely beating up Kiss because of his gender. Imagine the heat. This could and would be the basis for any number of movies or television shows, with Sonny Kiss over-coming the bullies without any backlash. But it would need to be handled respectfully. And wrestling doesn't do that particularly well. 

Jan 30, 2021 17:46:39 GMT X-zero said:

Going to echo some of NATH45 points.

The lack of good relatable babyfaces. If you aren't invested in the babyfaces when a heel does something you really don't care. And if you side with the heel point of view you going to cheer for that person over the babyface who personality doesn't seem real.

Trying to get the crowd to hate you without going to far. The example that will always come back to me is Jinder Mahal mocking Shinsuke speech. And the crowd chanting that is too far. Cornette said AEW could make a lot of money using the controversy about transgender athletes, but imagine the backlash if they did.

I thought Seth and MJF(pre Jericho stuff) did really well as modern heels.

Thank you for mentioning MJF. I was about to flip if no one mentioned him.

He's excellent as a heel. A pompous asshole piece of shit that deserves everything he gets. Whenever he opens his mouth I want someone to punch it closed.

I expect we get a Sammy Guevara face turn out of all this inner circle nonsense and if he succeeds in making the fans cheer Guevara, he deserves immense praise for that because Guevara is a douchebag too.

Also the Jay White shout is good too. He's so good.

Jan 30, 2021 0:43:11 GMT NATH45 said:

 and there aren't any good babyfaces anymore.

Bingo.  Plus the heels just seem to be cooler.  

Moose has had a really good heel run in Impact but is becoming the antihero.

 

Can we blame the Attitude era for this also?

Austin - violent, drunk redneck. And this man is a face?

DX - obnoxious assholes = faces.

The Rock - arrogant douchebag = face.

Kane - slasher movie villain.. face.

Undertaker - the living dead / outlaw biker. Babyface.

Our heroes were faces with heel traits.

So, it answer the original question.

In 2021, when we have live crowds back in full.. what would work wonderfully as a mid-card act is the offended millennial/cancel culture/RTC gimmick.

It would be a sneaky way for WWE to push mature content only for the heel to shut it down.

Joey Ryan tried that with his "Cancel Culture" gimmick, too bad he flamed out and ended up having all of those skeletons in the closet come out and cost him his career.

Not coming from an Indy background or being some Indy darling would go a long way. It is why Miz was able to generate such heat in his prime. Same with Baron Corbin. To the wrestling fans, these guys have a "They don't belong in wrestling, where are the years of diligence?!?!" mystique about them that rub people the wrong way.

Since WWE isn't allowed to have male wrestlers hit women wrestlers, outside of the aforementioned Corbin giving Becky Lynch a End of Days, there really aren't many ways to get the fans to boo you because a lot of the fans often respect the wrestlers talents in the ring but again a slow, methodical guy who isn't doing the flips and dives and pandering to the crowd is how you get a true heel over. That or if they are an absolute bastard on social media, like being a Trumper(It's why Cutter or whatever his name Jaxson something could make a killing as a heel) or maybe bringing Vince Russo back and having him be your manager since he has a giant stench to the common fan that will never go away.

MJF was the best heel in the business because he came across as genuine. Ever since he started teaming together with Jericho and starting doing shtick, it's killed a lot of his heat and while he can easily get it back, right now he's at a low point.

I also think there is such a thing as too much heat. A good example would be something like the abortion angles the WWE have run, they didn't kill the business or anything, but it was such an unnecessary storyline that didn't draw any new fans in and if anything hurt every performer who was involved. I think Pro Wrestling needs to be an escape and if you start writing things like racism or a political divide into the show than it's only going to hinder.

These days, cut a 70's heel promo and people will be demanded you be taken off TV.

I mean imagine if someone tried Kaufman's gimmick today? People would be fucking outraged.

Just saw a random Bubba Ray interview where he said the only reason they didn't go with the Bully character was because of the name. Vince apparently didn't want to do it based on the BAS campaign, which we won't even go into how stupid a wrestling company getting behind that is.

So you can't say or imply being a bully, even if the story eventually leads to a babyface putting you in your place that can even lead to a redemption? How is that not being a star?

This fucking business. Just end it.

@ness let's be honest.. they could have left it at Bubba Ray and simply played the Bully gimmick in WWE. Me thinks a push was never happening, irregardless. And its a nice way of Bubba justifying his lack of success.

Jan 31, 2021 20:14:01 GMT NATH45 said:

@ness let's be honest.. they could have left it at Bubba Ray and simply played the Bully gimmick in WWE. Me thinks a push was never happening, irregardless. And its a nice way of Bubba justifying his lack of success.

Supposedly there's more to the story, but he doesn't wanna tell it.

Probably just Bubba being a carny and holding out hoping for some shoot interview cash.

Jan 29, 2021 22:49:44 GMT 🤯 said:

JBL last legit heel?

I've said this many times. It's no longer true though. See, there's this guy in Australia named System...

Jimmy Rave & Johnny Jeter were also doing fine heel work at the same time as JBL.

While not on par with The Wrestling God, BJ Whitmer had a surprisingly good heel run in ROH about 5 years ago. Nick Aldis had his moments in NWA as well. I've heard tales of Ciampa having a good heel run in NXT. Bully Ray is a good shout, too. 

Unless I'm forgetting somebody, the last heels I genuinely loathed in that old school "boo the heel" way were Orton, Edge, and Punk way back in the mid 2000s. 

Ciampa's run versus Johnny was brilliant. The entire arch was one of the best in recent memory - any where.

Guys you're all forgetting about the greatest heel in wrestling and my sleeper pick for winning the Rumble:

The Muhammad Hassan / Jinder's wax on wax off promo seems more tasteless than anything, just write smarter.

The T-shirt argument is a good one, though in this day and age I'd have to rethink it a bit. Anarchist Joker has a decent fanbase, Thanos did nothing wrong and while I don't have any hard numbers when Game of Thrones was at its peak I don't think they'd have too much trouble moving Joffrey Baratheon: Rightful King or Ramsay Bolton merch. Despicable heels are still possible to pull off, it's just harder if you don't want to rely on cheap heat.

Feb 1, 2021 0:49:18 GMT Michinokudriver said:

The Muhammad Hassan / Jinder's wax on wax off promo seems more tasteless than anything, just write smarter.

The T-shirt argument is a good one, though in this day and age I'd have to rethink it a bit. Anarchist Joker has a decent fanbase, Thanos did nothing wrong and while I don't have any hard numbers when Game of Thrones was at its peak I don't think they'd have too much trouble moving Joffrey Baratheon: Rightful King or Ramsay Bolton merch. Despicable heels are still possible to pull off, it's just harder if you don't want to rely on cheap heat.

Consider the audience. We've already figured out wrestling, or at least WWE is aimed at casual fans, families and children who will likely subscribe to the easily relatable good v evil formula.

One of the Greatest Heels of All-Time




Also the first victim of PC Culture