What would a Top 5 Hardcore Holly matches list look like (since there's no way a Top 10 exists)?

I can name 3. RVD, Angle & Lesner.

Dec 29, 2021 1:16:52 GMT Ed said:

I can name 3. RVD, Angle & Lesner.

Broken Arm. Broken Neck. Did RVD break his wind pipe like HHH? To beat him you gotta kill him. And you better or he'll break your ass in half ya little shithead.

Dec 29, 2021 1:12:13 GMT Kilgore said:

What would a Top 5 Hardcore Holly matches list look like (since there's no way a Top 10 exists)?

You're right. 10 is for wimps. Hardcore Holly has a Top 11 that I conveniently came up with the other day. 

1. vs. RVD- WWECW 2006- Back Gash Match
2-4 w/ Charlie Haas vs. MNM- 3x in May-June 2005
5. vs. Jericho vs. Val- Smackdown May 2000
6. vs. Angle- Smackdown June 2000 where Holly finishes the match with a broken freaking arm
7. vs. HHH- Heat June 2000 where the best wrestler in the business lowers himself to working a WWF Championship match on Heat. HHH is also involved.
8. vs. Al Snow- St. Valentine's Day Massacre
9. vs. Billy Gunn- Raw March 1999 just before Wrestlemania 15
10. vs. British Bulldog- Superstars April(?) 1996- AIDS match (long story) which I sadly cannot find online
11. w/ Luggage vs. Acolytes- Heat October 1999

Dec 28, 2021 14:28:32 GMT Big Pete said:

Dec 28, 2021 14:17:28 GMT 🤯 said:

Are you implying Hardcore was the fake Mighty Molly?

Bob wishes he was half as hardcore as Molly - the real Hardcore of the Holleys.

Just like Brian Lee when you compare his career to the Undertaker, Bob just doesn't stack up against Molly.

4/10 post. Molly was just another spinoff character. The Joanie Loves Chachi of professional wrestling. 

Also, Hardcore Holly > Undertaker because Big Shot Bob was over enough to spawn two spinoff characters whereas Taker only begat one.

Baker-man is my favorite comedian.

Crash shall henceforth be known only as Luggage.

Can we all please not suck Molly into this?

She's legitimately and independently great. The last thing I want to do is liken her in any way to Luggage.

Luggage had literally nothing but what Hardcore begrudgingly gifted him. Molly was introduced mostly only to spice Luggage up. Hardcore never needed any more spice. Dude was as spicy as they come.

Whereas Luggage went on to nothing except curtain jerking Jakked once the 24/7 shtick ran its course, Hardcore and Molly actually benefited and evolved once freed from the burden of luggage.

Molly specifically went on to have a dope pro wrestling Romeo & Juliet deal with Spike, then had an underrated run as Hurricane sidekick Mighty Molly, then an equally underrated run as the prude pursued by Christopher Nowinski, before going all in on being a legit threat in the prehistoric women's revolution (even agreeing to shave her head!).

The most notable things Luggage did once Bob & Molly dropped his dead weight was a brief run as a follower of Shannon f'n Moore, an NWA-TNA cup of coffee, and then a tragic early death.

Dec 29, 2021 1:55:08 GMT 🤯 said:

Luggage had literally nothing but what Hardcore begrudgingly gifted him. Molly was introduced mostly only to spice Luggage up. Hardcore never needed any more spice. Dude was as spicy as they come.

Love this.

All joking aside I genuinely believe bringing in Crash watered down Hardcore's act and hurt his momentum. I also genuinely hated Crash's run as the comedic 24/7 champion. He was one of my least favorite acts in 2000 WWF. 

Truth is I initially hated WWF giving the Hardcore Title to jobber for life Bob Holly as well. I thought it was making a mockery of hardcore wrestling in general. I mean, Sparky Plug representing a style synonymous with Sabu, Funk, Cactus, etc. was a slap in the face to ECW and all those hardcore heroes. But Bobcore embraced it and soon won me over by becoming entertaining for the first time in his career. I always had a soft spot for him after that. 

Dec 29, 2021 1:42:20 GMT Baker said:

Dec 29, 2021 1:12:13 GMT Kilgore said:

What would a Top 5 Hardcore Holly matches list look like (since there's no way a Top 10 exists)?

You're right. 10 is for wimps. Hardcore Holly has a Top 11 I conveniently came up with the other day. 

1. vs. RVD- WWECW 2006- Back Gash Match
2-4 w/ Charlie Haas vs. MNM- 3x in May-June 2005

His top 4 matches happening in the mid-aughts! Took him a while to get good, I see. I must have missed it. 

Bobcore.

Another Baker-ism I intend to use henceforth.

Also, all this Bobcore besmirchment makes me want to rebook 1994-1998 WWF to go all in on a Bobcore push. Specifically I'm thinking of just pushing him hard in 1995 to be the man to dethrone Jeff Jarrett for the IC title. Figure maybe his sponsored race car driver gig gets over better if he's also a wrestling champion!

^It's likely he has some hidden gems scattered throughout the 90s before becoming Hardcore. The Owen & Jarrett IC Title matches come to mind. There's also a 6 man tag from a 1995 episode Raw where he teamed with Bret & Kid against Owen/Yoko/Hakushi that made an ancient Best of Raw tape and the well received Royal Rumble '95 tag w/ Kid vs. Bigelow & Tatanka. I couldn't list those matches in good conscience because I haven't seen them in 20+ years and it's not like I was paying that much attention to New Generation Sparky Plug matches to begin with.

Though my friend Brandon was an actual Sparky Plug fan because "he was a good wrestler" (meaning he did a Frankensteiner). The lone time I kinda sorta rooted for pre-Hardcore Holly was during his longevity push in the 1996 Royal Rumble. Brandon and his dad were pulling so hard for Sparky Plug in that one that I just went along with the flow. Their enthusiasm was infectious.

EDIT: He also had other good matches with RVD & Angle but they all sort of blend together. I just went with the most memorable bouts from those two very good series. 

Dec 29, 2021 1:46:20 GMT Baker said:

Dec 28, 2021 14:28:32 GMT Big Pete said:

Bob wishes he was half as hardcore as Molly - the real Hardcore of the Holleys.

Just like Brian Lee when you compare his career to the Undertaker, Bob just doesn't stack up against Molly.

4/10 post. Molly was just another spinoff character. The Joanie Loves Chachi of professional wrestling. 

Also, Hardcore Holly > Undertaker because Big Shot Bob was over enough to spawn two spinoff characters whereas Taker only begat one.

Spin-off character? She transcended both of them just like Trish transcended Test & Albert. Tell me which member of the family has a Hall of Fame ring to their name?

It may have been the Bill Engvall show, but Jennifer Lawrence was the only memorable part of it - same exact deal here.

Dec 29, 2021 2:44:49 GMT Big Pete said:

Dec 29, 2021 1:46:20 GMT Baker said:

4/10 post. Molly was just another spinoff character. The Joanie Loves Chachi of professional wrestling. 

Also, Hardcore Holly > Undertaker because Big Shot Bob was over enough to spawn two spinoff characters whereas Taker only begat one.

Spin-off character?

Undeniably true. 

Tell me which member of the family has a Hall of Fame ring to their name?

Come on, man. The WWE Hall of Fame is a nice way to honor the workers of yesteryear, but who actually takes it seriously?

Hardcore Holly graced WWE rings with his presence for 15 glorious years during which time he largely filled the low key valuable role of testing out newbies to see if they had what it took. Bob put over so many future WWE legends in their early days it's not funny. He was the first boss of WWE for a solid decade. I liken him to a grunt in the trenches doing the dirty work in the NFL. His job was to make the Mankinds and Bradshaws and Ortons and Codys and Goldusts of the world look good in their earliest matches and he was darn good at it. Vince and The Office certainly valued his work. Otherwise he wouldn't have been one of the longest tenured in ring talents in WWE history at the time of his release. 

Molly lasted all of four and a half years and is best known for losing her hair to Victoria at Wrestlemania 20. 

Verdict: Hardcore wins again

EDIT: TIL what Jennifer Lawrence did before becoming a big star. So thanks for that. 

As you well know Baker, history is written by the winners and Molly won the greatest prize of them all during a renaissance for her division. She helped put that division on the map and had one of the best moves in all of Pro Wrestling in the Molly-Go-Round. Molly is in the history books as a legend - Bob is in the history books as an asshole.

Molly Go Round= cool move
Hardcore Holly's Dropkick= cooler move.

Hardcore remains undefeated.

For real, Bob was a solid worker who helped fill out the roster and seemingly never took it easy in the ring. Despite losing, he'd make sure he'd get his stuff in and a lot of his offense was actually pretty impressive. We've touched on his A+ dropkick, but even that spot where he drapes his opponent on the ropes and kicks them in the mid-section always looked painful. The Falcon Arrow/Hollycaust is always a decent signature move and the Alabama Slam was one of the better finishers of it's day.

The biggest problem Bob had was that he didn't get a ton of promo time. The Big Shot stuff wasn't actually that bad and he seemed to have decent trash talk - I think he fell victim to the classic Kevin Dunn 'too southern' knock.

I have watched RVD vs. Hardcore Holly, do not feel like doing a Match Review, but it was a good match. They seem to have bad chemistry at first, but find the correct gear after the superplex spot that gives Holly the gash in his back, then things get cooking. That said, it's embarrassing if that's the best match of his career. This dude was on TV for like two decades, and that's only a 3.5/3.75 star match. Doubt it would be remembered at all if not for the back gash. Not to dismiss the back gash, which was gnarly, and should be remembered, a true tough as nails performance, a borderline Sabu moment, but that's really all its got going for it. 

Where would it rank in RVD's best matches? 

I actually think the match stands out for Rob much in the same way as Anarchy Rulz 1999 of Rob being more versatile than he's given credit for. It's a contrast of styles against an opponent who had no buzz about them and by the end of the match, Bob actually gets over as a credible worker. They'd go onto to have more matches, none of them as memorable as this but not too far off from the pace either from memory.

In Bob's case, it's impressive that the WWF thought so highly of him that they kept him around despite having not one but two dead on arrival gimmicks in Sparky Plugg and Bodacious Bob. When you compare him to his contemporaries - guys like Val Venis, D'Lo Brown, Billy Gunn, Al Snow etc. I can't remember them having a match of this calibre. At least not in the WWE.

The lack of a classic or ***** match on his resume and he still got 1.1ers going to bat for him is another reason Hardcore rules. It's easy to get peeps behind you when you have matches like Bret/Perfect and if you're pushed and in enough programs like those guys... you'd better have some good ones FFS.

Hardcore didn't do much, other than have an entire division named after him.

Also how did Holly pass the tag title reign to Ted Jr.? Cody was his partner. That's an overlooked wrestling thing they could introduced. Like you can just jump on the apron and swap sides.

Ring of HHHonor

Ring of Hardcore Holly Honor.

RT Scrap all plans for this free agent.

To celebrate Hardcore Holly transcending the Random Thread here is a story about him being the greatest fantasy booker of all time...



Holly 48/14 says Gimme The Belt

Holly was one of my boys (alongside Gunn and Blackman). There's just something there that drew me in even though objectively it doesn't make much sense since he was mostly enhancement, literally a JTTS. JR says maximize those minutes and he did because other than a botched title win, he didn't have all that many accolades but I felt he had a decent # of moments despite being one of the boys. Because I was obviously overlooking his match with Lesnar because I was hoping for Benoit/Brock, but in different circumstances I could buy into a short thank you run here, especially if the focus is gonna be on the big gold for a while. But then it robs of Eddy/Brock... man I gotta rewatch that since I remember it being good (or was it just long?) but no one really ever talks about it. Maybe it sucked until Goldberg. Also really liked Eddy/Batista, even if it's slow and plodding. Back to Holly... coulda just done Rumble until JBL.

Also JBL/Eddy was that first match any good or is it just the CRACK of the chair spot?

Dec 29, 2021 2:16:40 GMT 🤯 said:

Also, all this Bobcore besmirchment makes me want to rebook 1994-1998 WWF to go all in on a Bobcore push. Specifically I'm thinking of just pushing him hard in 1995 to be the man to dethrone Jeff Jarrett for the IC title. 

Watch the video I shared a few posts ago. Follow Bob's advice. Prosper.

Dec 29, 2021 4:47:42 GMT Kilgore said:

Where would it rank in RVD's best matches? 

Outside the Top 10. 

It doesn't get any better than the RVD match for Hardcore Holly. That's the overwhelming consensus pick for best Bob Holly match. 

Dec 29, 2021 5:30:03 GMT Big Pete said:

I actually think the match stands out for Rob much in the same way as Anarchy Rulz 1999 of Rob being more versatile than he's given credit for. It's a contrast of styles against an opponent who had no buzz about them and by the end of the match, Bob actually gets over as a credible worker. They'd go onto to have more matches, none of them as memorable as this but not too far off from the pace either from memory.

In Bob's case, it's impressive that the WWF thought so highly of him that they kept him around despite having not one but two dead on arrival gimmicks in Sparky Plugg and Bodacious Bob. When you compare him to his contemporaries - guys like Val Venis, D'Lo Brown, Billy Gunn, Al Snow etc. I can't remember them having a match of this calibre. At least not in the WWE.

Agree with all this. 

Dec 29, 2021 20:49:27 GMT @ness said:

Hardcore didn't do much, other than have an entire division named after him.

Tremendous.
===============
Going to explain how I became a Bob Holly fan and why I (mostly) stuck with him through the years. Then I'll probably give it a rest.

Thought he sucked as a dorky undercard babyface and sucked even harder as 1/2 of an even dorkier tag team in the New Midnight Express.

I was initially appalled when Bob Holly, one of the biggest losers on the roster, and a guy who had never shown even the slightest penchant for hardcore wrestling during the previous five years, won the Hardcore Title from Al Snow. Thought it was a slap in the face to ECW, hardcore wrestling, and basically everything good in the world. Though I did get a kick out of them fighting in the Mississippi River.

Holly finally started winning me over during the surprisingly not terrible Hardcore Title reign that followed.

Then came the Big Shot stuff and I was all in on the newly rechristened Hardcore Holly. I was amused by his bluntness on the mic. Also dug him in a heel Cinderella Story sort of way. Here was a guy who sucked for 5 years and was going nowhere, but he persevered and finally found his true calling as a delusional trash talking heel with balls the size of grapefruits and no filter. 

Rooted hard for him to win the IC Title during his feud with Chyna & Jericho, who were two of my least favorites in the company at the time. Reward the veteran, ya jerks! He came up short, but seemed to be settling into a midcard/perennial IC Title contender role when tragedy struck...

Against Kurt Angle where Bobcore finished the bout with a broken freaking arm. That just solidified him as a double tough sombitch in my eyes. It's basically a lesser known precursor to the RVD match.

*Getting sleepy so I'll wrap it up fairly quickly.

Like @ness Holly was just one of my boys. It objectively doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He didn't have a lot of great (or even good) matches. He never got much of a push. He didn't even get a lot of mic time. But I always had a soft spot for the dude. Guess it was based on residual goodwill from that 99-00 run. It's not even like I was clamoring for a post-2000 Hardcore Holly push. But stuff like the weirdly good Hass & Holly vs. MNM feud, or the back gash match with RVD would happen, and I'd be reminded that yep, Hardcore Holly rules.

To end things with one last compliment- Hardcore Holly would have been the only logical choice if the APA had chose to expand business by including a third member. 

Dec 29, 2021 23:43:18 GMT @ness said:

Ring of HHHonor

Ring of Hardcore Holly Honor.

RT Scrap all plans for this free agent.

Damn it I have to start all over.

Dec 29, 2021 2:16:40 GMT 🤯 said:

Bobcore.

Another Baker-ism I intend to use henceforth.

Also, all this Bobcore besmirchment makes me want to rebook 1994-1998 WWF to go all in on a Bobcore push. Specifically I'm thinking of just pushing him hard in 1995 to be the man to dethrone Jeff Jarrett for the IC title. Figure maybe his sponsored race car driver gig gets over better if he's also a wrestling champion!

I can't get over this...

IV Title History Rebooked:

- Razor Ramon drops the belt to Jeff Jarrett at Royal Rumble '95.

- Jarrett reigns until Bob Holly pins him, despite Jarrett's foot being on the bottom rope. The title is held up. Instead of just a straight up rematch the following week... it's a ladder match, because anything can happen on RAW!. Holly retains against Jarrett in a straight up rematch the following week after winning the belt in the ladder match.

- Holly reigns until former tag partner KING KID turns heel and beats him for the belt at IYH: Seasons Beatings in December 1995... thanks to Sidference in the form of a powerbomb. KING KID reigns only for a month, when Savio Vega takes it off of him at Royal Rumble '96.

- Stone Cold Steve Austin wins the belt from Savio Vega at WrestleMania XII, and subsequently makes it his mission to make the title mean something again.

Resuming this while no longer stoned...

- Marc Mero upsets(?) Austin in a KOTR rematch at IYH: Intercontinental Incident in July 1996 to win the title... Only to drop it a month later to Goldust at SummerSlam '96 via some shenanigans between Marlena & Sable.

- Goldust drops to a returning Ahmed Johnson on a RAW in early 1997 to pop a rating. Ahmed eventually turns heel and joins the Nation of Domination as IC Champ. Faarooq demands a shot at the IC title after failing to capture the world title from Undertaker at KOTR 1997 (something about proving Ahmed's Loyalty, etc.). Faarooq wins the IC title thanks to the reformed Nation turning on Ahmed.

- Faarooq reigns supreme thanks to the Nation until upstart usurper Rock beats him for the belt at WrestleMania XIV. Rock reigns until SummerSlam 1998, dropping the belt to HHH in a ladder match like in real life. An injured HHH vacates the title shortly thereafter. X-Pac wins a tournament for the vacant title, defeating Ken Shamrock in the finals.

- X-Pac reigns until Jeff Jarrett becomes a 2x IC Champ thanks to a Debra plastic tiddy flash on some RAW in late spring/early summer 1999. Then Jarrett drops to Chyna in September or October as IRL.

- Chyna is challenged by the debuting Chris Jericho, but he can't get the job done. Somehow Hardcore Holly enters the picture and wins the belt in a triple threat at Royal Rumble 2000. Holly retains through the rest of his career.

Still can't get behind a Sparky Plug IC Title reign but this...

Dec 31, 2021 13:43:23 GMT 🤯 said:

- Chyna is challenged by the debuting Chris Jericho, but he can't get the job done. Somehow Hardcore Holly enters the picture and wins the belt in a triple threat at Royal Rumble 2000. Holly retains through the rest of his career.

Has my strongest possible endorsement.

For some reason that triple threat has had me convinced somewhere in there he held the belt. Nope.

Also looking back on paper and from what I recall RR00 had one of the best under (non Rumble) cards.