Dec 31, 2021 21:47:24 GMT @ness said:

For some reason that triple threat has had me convinced somewhere in there he held the belt. Nope.

Mandela Effect. For years I just assumed Hardcore Holly held the IC Title at some point. 

Dec 31, 2021 21:54:16 GMT @ness said:

Also looking back on paper and from what I recall RR00 had one of the best under (non Rumble) cards.

It does.

Dec 24, 2021 23:03:09 GMT Kilgore said:

Dec 24, 2021 13:20:22 GMT 🤯 said:

There's no way Hardcore Holly ever sucked nearly as much as Chris Candido. Maybe during the Bombastic Bob run. But even then, I'd call them on par with each other.

Skip > Thurman Sparky Plug

Mostly because Sparky sucked. Bob was (probably still is) a dick, which is why Hardcore Holly worked so much better (plus not being a goofy ass race car driver really helps).

Candido doesn't suck though. Both guys are underrated, but Holly moreso.

Jan 1, 2022 3:50:26 GMT rad said:

Dec 24, 2021 23:03:09 GMT Kilgore said:

Skip > Thurman Sparky Plug

Mostly because Sparky sucked. Bob was (probably still is) a dick, which is why Hardcore Holly worked so much better (plus not being a goofy ass race car driver really helps).

Candido doesn't suck though. Both guys are underrated, but Holly moreso.

Not a Candido guy, so I've let the insane Hardcore Holly fan club make him sound worse than he is, but it might be time for some hot takes like Candido had multiple better matches in ECW than Hardcore Holly's best match against RVD, the match against Lance Storm at Heatwave '98 being the first to come to mind.

Also, different sort of lunatics at PWO have Candido as the 305th best wrestler of all time, Hardcore Holly is unranked, didn't make the Top 550.

What's insane is thinking Lance Storm was ever a part of any good match.

Jan 1, 2022 5:21:35 GMT 🤯 said:

What's insane is thinking Lance Storm was ever a part of any good match.

The Carrying Power of Candido, Hardcore Holly could never. 

Really think we're overlooking the carrying he did for Crash.

Dec 29, 2021 3:33:15 GMT Baker said:

Molly Go Round= cool move
Hardcore Holly's Dropkick= cooler move.

Hardcore remains undefeated.

Just to piggyback off this as one of those bigger Molly fans... the Go Round is one of those moves that didn't get executed a lot. Meanwhile you're more than likely to see the textbook in a HH match. Another point for Bobcore.

Jan 1, 2022 4:07:33 GMT Kilgore said:

1. Candido had multiple better matches in ECW than Hardcore Holly's best match against RVD, the match against Lance Storm at Heatwave '98 being the first to come to mind.

2. Also, different sort of lunatics at PWO have Candido as the 305th best wrestler of all time, Hardcore Holly is unranked, didn't make the Top 550.

1. We'll have to agree to disagree
2. That settles it. I'm voting next time. 

Jan 1, 2022 5:21:35 GMT 🤯 said:

What's insane is thinking Lance Storm was ever a part of any good match.

While thinking Lance Storm was good is indeed insane, he was in a handful good matches...

1. w/ Jericho vs. Heavenly Bodies- SMW- In which Lance Crashed his way into a great match due to Jericho channeling his inner Hardcore Holly with a gutsy performance which saw him bleed buckets from a nasty wound while wrestling with a broken freaking arm. Meaning Lance's best match is actually just another feather in Hardcore Holly's cap since Jericho borrowed from the Hardcore Holly playbook in dragging Lance Luggage to his career match. This is probably better than RVD/Holly, but you can't credit Lance for that since he spent the bulk of it standing on the apron. 

2. vs. Jerry Lynn- Anarchy Rulz- Good, albeit meaningless late 90s workrate match without the memorability factor of RVD/Holly. 

3. vs. Candido- ECW Heat Wave 98 (and others?)- Fine in a Hardcore Holly's 8th or 9th best match sort of way.

To continue the Lance vs. Holly debate...

The best RVD/Holly match is better than the best RVD/Lance match.

Lance Storm was good at 3 things- throwing dropkicks and going up high on Chokeslams & Back Body Drops...

But Hardcore Holly threw a better dropkick and bumped just as well considering his 400 pound* frame
*240 pounds of muscle + 160 pound balls

Verdict: Hardcore Holly is better than Lance Storm
Hardcore Holly Scorecard: 99-1 since I conceded RVD > Holly. Of course there is no shame in coming up short against Rob Van Dam.

We need a dropkick countdown I'm telling yas.

Jan 1, 2022 18:51:45 GMT @ness said:

We need a dropkick countdown I'm telling yas.

Hardcore Holly wins or we riot

Honestly off the top of my head I can only barely name 10 who are consistently hitting it, but yeah there's a reason he gets called textbook. Only way the countdown is accurate if it's labeled "best Bobcore imitation".

Jan 1, 2022 18:56:50 GMT @ness said:

Honestly off the top of my head I can only barely name 10 who are consistently hitting it, but yeah there's a reason he gets called textbook. Only way the countdown is accurate if it's labeled "best Bobcore imitation".

Seconded. 

Baker-man & @ness in this thread already making it so hard...

To stick to my 2022 New Year's resolution.

Jan 1, 2022 19:32:37 GMT 🤯 said:

Baker -man & @ness in this thread already making it so hard...

To stick to my 2022 New Year's resolution.

How do you like me now?

Evidently it was used in Dodgeball, so HH is more mainstream than Okada and his B+ dropkick. Yeah I said it.

Jan 1, 2022 19:32:37 GMT 🤯 said:

Baker -man & @ness in this thread already making it so hard...

To stick to my 2022 New Year's resolution.

What's your resolution?

Jan 1, 2022 19:37:22 GMT Baker said:

Jan 1, 2022 19:32:37 GMT 🤯 said:

Baker -man & @ness in this thread already making it so hard...

To stick to my 2022 New Year's resolution.

What's your resolution?

Only like posts from Emperor's alterego.

Jan 1, 2022 19:34:55 GMT @ness said:

How do you like me now?

Evidently it was used in Dodgeball, so HH is more mainstream than Okada and his B+ dropkick. Yeah I said it.

Okada oshmada. Hardcore Holly's badass theme popped up in all kinds of stuff if the comments are to be believed. Here's Frankie Kazarian telling a story pertaining to Hardcore Holly and his theme....



DO YA  :lol:  Absolute legend.

:lol:  Just realized we had two separate Hardcore Holly threads in the past four months. If any wrestler deserves it... Should I combine them or nah?

Decided to merge the Hardcore Holly threads. Also decided to sticky it. The hostile takeover is complete. History of Wrestling is now the Holly World Order. We've taken over.

Triple H vs. Hardcore Holly- Heat 6/18/00

I was a sporadic Heat viewer at best. Watched a bunch of the early ones when it was still fresh and somewhat important. Watched regularly in 2002 as well once it became The Raven Show. Aside from those two outliers I usually only watched it on PPV Sundays. I mention all that because this particular bout doesn't fall into any of those categories, yet it's one of only two 2000 Heat matches I distinctly remember watching. Not sure whether happy coincidence or because I went out of my way to see my guy Double H take on the hated champ Triple H, but I really hope it's the latter. I also listed this among my Top 11 Hardcore Holly matches (because Top Tens are for softcore nerds and Bob Holly is neither). Let's see if it holds up...

This is non-title. Holly was working a surly tweener gimmick (naturally) and gets a nice ovation. Say what you will about Triple H, but the man does have presence. Not to mention a great theme (My Time) and a heck of an entrance. Steph accompanies him to the ring.

Meh. This was disappointing. Really just a basic match that doesn't hold up as anything special. Likely overrated it back in the day due to the novelty of seeing The Champ lower himself to working Heat in a competitive 7-8 minute match (which was long for a 2000 Heat bout) against one of my guys. 

HHH controls early with headlockery. Then they go into fisticuffs where Holly fares better. HHH is awfully giving, going more or less 50/50 with midcard for life BOBCORE. Crowd is hot for Holly which I see as a testament to the greatness of 2000 HHH as a heel. BOBCORE gets some nearfalls off The Dropkick and a Powerslam. I didn't really buy them, but the crowd did, the powerslam in particular. 

They missed an opportunity when Holly countered the Pedigree by catapulting Trips into the turnbuckles. Why not tease the Alabama Slam instead to build drama and get a better reaction? Holly also could have rolled up a staggering HHH after the catapult for a solid nearfall, but he didn't do that either. 

Highlight was Trips ducking out for a kiss from Steph before hitting his patented knee drop. Excellent bit of heeling.

We get a non-finish when Jericho, who was feuding with both men, runs in to throw Steph from the apron and then deck both guys with weapon shots to a big pop. The BOBCORE enthusiast in me can appreciate them keeping him strong here. He didn't even do the j-o-b to a guy coming off what was no less than the 2nd greatest title reign in modern company history.

Verdict- basic ** match  that provides Kilgore and other anti-Hollyists with ammunition because if this really is one of BOBCORE's Top 11 matches then he isn't very good

I hate that Kilgore is part of that faction. Normally they'd be instant jobbers but he gives them instant credibility.

^Agreed

Aug 20, 2022 0:14:05 GMT Baker said:

Verdict- basic ** match  that provides Kilgore and other anti-Hollyists with ammunition because if this really is one of BOBCORE's Top 11 matches then he isn't very good

This might turn into the slow revelation you had with Al Snow a year or two ago. 

Aug 20, 2022 4:54:24 GMT Kilgore said:

Aug 20, 2022 0:14:05 GMT Baker said:

Verdict- basic ** match  that provides Kilgore and other anti-Hollyists with ammunition because if this really is one of BOBCORE's Top 11 matches then he isn't very good

This might turn into the slow revelation you had with Al Snow a year or two ago. 

No. Don't. Say it ain't so!

Tell the Snow Story.

@ness

A long time Baker Boy was Al Snow. Leif Cassidy, specifically. Had a place in Baker's heart similar to Bobcore, although I think he might have thought more of Snow than Bobcore, even, as an early New Style workrate guy that would have been better served in WCW working with Benoit/Eddie/Dean. Well, a journey of Snow/Cassidy matches in 2021 revealed to Baker that Snow was not quite this, and actually kinda sucked. Baker was a big enough man to write this:

Jan 19, 2021 4:59:55 GMT Baker said:

I was wrong while Kilgore and WWF were right all along about Al Snow. Turns out Al Snow always sucked. The Head gimmick was Wrestlecrap that got inexplicably over for a minute in ECW. I'd been aware of that for over two decades now. What hurts far more is discovering my boy Leif Cassidy also sucked.

Baker has since gone on to start the "Al Snow Memorial Club" (Things Baker thought were good that actually sucked).

Will Bobcore end up there one day? Only time will tell. 

Aug 20, 2022 13:00:52 GMT @ness said:

Tell the Snow Story.

Kilgore covered it well but I'll elaborate a little just because...

Kilgore is right. I did indeed prefer 1996 Leif Cassidy to our guy BOBCORE. Leif was WWF's answer to WCW's Benoit/Malenko/Guerrero in the New Style wrestler department, only better because he actually had a gimmick and a personality. 1996 me thought he was a hoot in segments and a beast in the ring with all those cool moves nobody else in WWF was doing. Fancy suplexes, various bombs, moonsault variations, throwing a neat wrinkle on basic moves by sitting out...Leif had all the movez. Only wrestlers I liked more that year were *checks notes* Vader, Goldust, Owen, Flair & Bulldog. So Camp Cornette, the GOAT, and one of the best gimmicks WWF ever came up with. A real murderer's row. But nearly a quarter century later I'd discover Leif was a total botch machine. Check this out...

-Bombs in his live tv debut as Avatar with a bad botch and an lol worthy improvised finisher. Even gets shown up by (equally awful) jobber Brian Walsh. Immediately de-pushed, pulled from Survivor Series, and taken off tv for months. Iirc he only had two more televised matches in a glorified jobber role. All because of one of the worst, if not THE worst, debut matches in company history.

-Generously given a second chance. Repackaged as evil ninja Shinobi (not Musashi). Only wrestles two matches. Has another comical botch in at least one of them.

-Repackaged again as Leif Cassidy. Has his most dangerous botch yet with a powerbomb gone wrong in one of his first matches under the new gimmick. Oh but it gets worse. Because this particular botch came against Shawn Michaels a week or two before Wrestlemania 12! Meaning this clunky klutz could have singlehandedly ruined a major Wrestlemania main event months in the making. Now 96-97 me thought Leif Cassidy was the most criminally underutilized guy in the company. And Wrestling Observer readers agreed! They voted him Most Underrated Wrestler in 1996. But after watching this stuff with the benefit of hindsight I realize he was lucky just to remain employed. I honestly would have given him the boot after this one. "The Best Kept Secret In Professional Wrestling" TM Apter Mags is now 0 for 3.

-There's a New Rockers squash later that year (I think against the Hardys, actually) where they predictably botch this weird, experimental finisher. Then they do it again like a bunch of hacks. And they botch it a second time! But it's botched slightly less terribly than the first time so they just take it home. A total trainwreck.

My dad had a catchphrase. Maybe this was a popular saying among fathers? I don't know. But when I got too much to eat and couldn't finish it all he'd say "Your eyes are bigger than your ass." Al Snow was the "your eyes are bigger than your ass" of professional wrestling. He tried doing all this fancy stuff that he just couldn't physically pull off. Maybe he could a year or two earlier before he bulked up for a run in mainstream wrestling? That is entirely possible. It's been like 20 years since I watched the Benoit ECW match or the 20 foot ladder (tallest ever!) match with Sabu. But by the time he gets to WWF he's a botch machine who has trouble pulling off the fancy stuff and it often looks really, really bad.
===============
Will BOBCORE go the way of Al Snow? Fear not 🤯 . I don't think he will. And I'll be back with another post in a few minutes to explain why...

Aug 20, 2022 12:24:51 GMT 🤯 said:

Aug 20, 2022 4:54:24 GMT Kilgore said:

This might turn into the slow revelation you had with Al Snow a year or two ago. 

No. Don't. Say it ain't so!

BOBCORE and Leif are very different wrestlers whom I enjoy(ed) for very different reasons. 50% of Leif's appeal was being a cool new style wrestler with state of the art moves. It is only recently that I realized he was actually a botch machine. That killed a large part of his appeal. As for BOBCORE...

OK I am going to break kayfabe this one time only so pay attention because I'll probably deny all this in the future. I don't think BOBCORE is anything special in the ring. He has a great dropkick and can be a little above average in hardcore matches. That's about it. I once saw a post elsewhere calling BOBCORE the most average wrestler of all time. Poster's argument was he spent 15 years in big time wrestling without ever having a great match OR a truly awful match. Just the most average dude, making all the towns for 15 years, forever putting guys over in forgettable ** matches, and stiffing the occasional greenhorn. And....I mostly agree with this.

But his in ring averageness only adds to his BOYness if I may borrow a @ness ism. He's not the greatest in ring performer*. Holly's appeal for me lies in his prickly demeanor/tough guy persona more than anything else. Kilgore once put over Steve Corino's hilarious bluntness on the mic. Hardcore Holly is a similar case. Holly bluntly dumping on Gangrel, Jeff Hardy, or Michael Cole in his thick Alabama drawl will never fail to amuse me. Ditto for Holly getting right up in Show or Kane or some other giant's face to tell them they suck. He just cracks me up. Holly, like Corino, was the rare heel with balls. We all know he's going to get his ass kicked. Holly himself probably knows it deep down. But he does it anyway just because he's Big Balls Bob. I love hearing the real life stories like "DO YA" or "Gimme da belt. Den ah beat errbody." because it's EXACTLY what his character would say. He might be an jerk, but, dang it, he's MY jerk.

*That 11 Best Bob Holly match list I came up with was sincere. Don't get me wrong. I genuinely did enjoy all those matches at one time or another. But it was also a bit of a lark? Let's just say I exaggerated the BOBCORE fanboy gimmick a bit. Kilgore asked and I delivered with tongue somewhat in cheek. I mean I included the AIDS match with Bulldog for crying out loud! SURE, it was memorable in context, but I am equally sure it's just your basic ** BOBCORE special devoid of context.

Oh, that reminds me of another Corino/BOBCORE comparison I wanted to make. Now I think ECW fans were a bit quicker on the uptake, a little "smarter" if ya wheel, so they came around on Corino within a year or so and ECW was forced to turn him face. BOBCORE had more of a slow burn connection to the WWF Universe. Before I get to some examples let me set the table...

I don't think you can argue BOBCORE's peak in terms of character and overness was 99-00*. He got a lot of tv time and ran with what little they gave him to such an extent that it defines his identity to this day. He made the most out of a throwaway title change for a throwaway title.

*While his strongest push came in late 03-early 04 but the Brock stuff was honestly a cold feud for me....and just about everybody else judging by the reaction to it over the past 18 years. With that out of the way....

-I distinctly remember reading an article predicting how the 2002 KOTR would go on one of the major newz sites. I think it was the Torch, but it could have been the Observer. The reason I remember this article is because the writer mentioned a groundswell of grassroots support for Hardcore Holly to win KOTR in 2002. That wasn't even a strong year for our guy. He hadn't been pushed strong, or involved in a major storyline in.....like 2 years. But there was enough support for BOBCORE among the most rabid segment of the WWF audience that this writer felt the need to mention it while simultaneously pooh poohing the notion in a respectable manner iirc. Fwiw I wasn't even a part of this particular surge of Hollymania. I was all in on RVD at the time. BUT Holly totally should have beat Test and I'd have popped SO HARD if he beat Brock The Crock before losing to RVD in the finals. I'll see if I can find this 20 year old article if I have nothing better to do later. (EDIT: I couldn't find it)

-Holly was still getting "HARDCORE HOLLY"/"WE WANT HOLLY" chants teaming with Charlie Haas against MNM in 2005. Those hot for Holly crowds are a big reason why I was such a fan of that series. Again, he hadn't done anything noteworthy in years. Yet crowds were still hot for him. They respected this Attitude Era holdover who had been a company workhorse for over a decade by that point.

-Same thing happened a year later in WWECW after the RVD back gash match. Even jaded old school ECW fans were largely receptive to Holly being on "their brand." It was like a grudging "Yeah, alright, Holly could have hung in the original ECW so we're ok with him being here." 

-I can neither confirm nor deny this one since the whole thing is a forgettable blur since I was already half checked out, but Holly claims his team with Cody didn't work out so well because crowds only cared about him and Cody wasn't getting over the way the office wanted. To hear Holly tell it, crowds chanted "WE WANT HOLLY" when Cody was in and "HARDCORE HOLLY" when Holly was in. 

*I'm not saying Holly was over in every city every night. There were many times when he came out to crickets. BUT there were pockets of Holly fans still out there years after his prime occasionally giving him some of the best reactions on the show. And before someone asks I'd take Corino over BOBCORE without a second thought.

Bumping this since I moved all the recent Hardcore Holly chatter over here.

If any thread deserves a bump, it's this one.

If any thread deserves a rebrand, it's BOBCORE's.