Apr 24, 2022 3:01:25 GMT Baker said:

How come the Red Rooster gimmick "killed Terry Taylor's career" but...

Isaac Yankem & Fake Diesel did not kill Kane's career?
Oz & Vinnie Vegas did not kill Kevin Nash's career?
Spirit Squad Nicky & The Caddy did not kill Dolph Ziggler's career?
Rockabilly did not kill Billy Gunn's career?
Etc. Etc.

Maybe Terry Taylor just wasn't that great to begin with? 

This is a great question, that I think you mostly answered yourself. HOWEVAH, I think it was significantly more difficult to rebound from an awful gimmick in those days than certainly Dolph's era, and even the not so distant future of your other examples. 

First off, Kane had the mask, and getting the exact gimmick, moveset and booking as fucking Undertaker working in his favor, and it took most a little bit to realize he had been Fake Diesel. 

Rockabilly to Billy Gunn was mostly willed by New Age Outlaws getting over through lots of bells and whistles (plus Road Dogg's charisma, which means Roadie to Road Dogg is probably even more impressive).

Vinny Vegas to Diesel is kind of inexplicable, I have to say. But a cool 7 foot guy, getting a monster push, certainly gave him a boost the ol' Rooster would never get.

But back to Rooster's era being partially the problem: How many guys with awful gimmicks in the '80s rebounded? Like imagine Adrian Adonis, not grossly out of shape, just the husky dude that could go, trying to rebound from the Adorable run? It'd be impossible. 

It just seems to me once you were branded ridiculous in those days, there was no getting out of it. 

Also, Terry Taylor sucked, as you said.

Apr 24, 2022 3:23:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Also, Terry Taylor sucked, as you said.

I never got the Terry Taylor early internet hype...he really was always just the Red Rooster to me...until I watched Mid South/UWF in the early 2000s. He was smooth in the ring. More athletic than your average 80s wrestler. A good hand to be sure. But he was still lacking in the charisma/promo/hook department. An 80s Jerry Lynn at best.

"Terry Taylor could have been the next Ric Flair!" is utter nonsense. But he totally could have been a good Bob Holly. Meaning a midcard for life guy who spent a decade making other wrestlers look good, usually in a losing effort. So in that sense the Red Rooster gimmick derailed a guy with Kanyon's ceiling. Taylor was even an 80s Innovator of Offense! I've seen him credited with inventing the Rock Bottom (accidentally on an improvised clothesline botch), Jawbreaker, and another move or two on either an early internet site devoted to wrestling moves, a late 90s Apter Mag, or both.

Apr 24, 2022 3:42:05 GMT Baker said:

Apr 24, 2022 3:23:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Also, Terry Taylor sucked, as you said.

I never got the Terry Taylor early internet hype...he really was always just the Red Rooster to me...until I watched Mid South/UWF in the early 2000s. He was smooth in the ring. More athletic than your average 80s wrestler. A good hand to be sure. But he was still lacking in the charisma/promo/hook department. An 80s Jerry Lynn at best.

"Terry Taylor could have been the next Ric Flair!" is utter nonsense. But he totally could have been a good Bob Holly. Meaning a midcard for life guy who spent a decade making other wrestlers look good, usually in a losing effort. So in that sense the Red Rooster gimmick derailed a guy with Kanyon's ceiling. Taylor was even an 80s Innovator of Offense! I've seen him credited with inventing the Rock Bottom (accidentally on an improvised clothesline botch), Jawbreaker, and another move or two on either an early internet site devoted to wrestling moves, a late 90s Apter Mag, or both.

Due to taping it off PPV, I've seen SuperBrawl 2 more than just about any other wrestling event, and that had Terry Taylor doing a poor man's Million Dollar Man gimmick where he went by Terrence Taylor, and WCW is going over the top, like, Terrence Taylor is a serious wrestler. And even as a kid, I wasn't buying it. No, that's the Red Rooster. You can slick his hair back and pretend he's money now, but nope. 

I think he's also a product of Flair. Didn't Flair plug him into the formula pre-Rooster, then people thought Taylor was great, but every moment after that has proved that it was just Flair being Flair, making an opponent look better than he really was? And now that we have history on our side, and as much footage as there ever will be, it's not like a bunch of Taylor stuff has emerged to better his reputation. I think he was merely overrated pre-Rooster, then Rooster gave him an out for underachieving, he became a martyr for a bad gimmick, instead of a guy that probably would have been gradually exposed as nothing special in a non-Red Rooster universe. 

Apr 23, 2022 6:10:15 GMT KITN said:

I have what might be a controversial question.

Is Jeff Hardy really a high-flyer?
Or is he just a high faller?

He’s more of a ‘high risk taker’ / ‘high spot’ type. It’s more noticeable when he goes against some of the smaller guys and he looks massive and isn’t actually wrestling the high flying style compared to his smaller opponent who is.

Apr 25, 2022 0:57:13 GMT Baker said:

Brock Lesnar defeats Ric Flair by (worked) shooty shoot shooting on PPV in Brock's debut match. Then Lesnar disappears for months! Because ya gotta keep OVW strong, brother. Oh, keep in mind it was 52 year old Ric Flair who told Vince the WCW guys were gonna shooty shoot shoot on the WWF guys in the first place. Yes, because nothing says intimidating like a 52 year old Ric Flair. If you're gonna do this dumb angle at least have somebody like Scott Steiner or Goldberg be the one to bring it up. The WWF guys come across as a bunch of wimps for not immediately being like "LOL. OK. Let's go, old man."

Even the set-up of the match was strange. It's Ric Flair vs. Brock Lesnar under the guise that Paul Heyman signed Brock Lesnar to avenge being fired from WCW. Not only would this go over the heads of most fans, wasn't it Bill Watts who ultimately let Heyman go in '93?

Apr 25, 2022 0:57:13 GMT Baker said:

Benoit (who he features rather prominently) got injured right when his Invasion angle began, Eddie was gone from the company, and other things along those lines that I've thankfully forgotten.

To be fair, I believe he was going from the 3/26/01 show on. Benoit injured his neck either in the Cage Match against Angle or TLC III so he gets a pass there. Eddie was also still in the company around the time, although he's using a lot of artistic license since his substance abuse would have been pretty bad around this time.

or Goldberg be the one to bring it up.

No Goldberg because he was still on his WCW deal which went until mid-03 (WWE must have bought out his remaining few months?). He brought the Steiners in for the July PPV when their contracts weren't up until November of 01 but I guess that's more believable to be fair.

Terry Funk is indeed heavily featured. He works 2nd from the top against Undertaker at WM 18....in 2002....at 57 years old.

Everything around the Funk booking is odd. Apparently Vince HATES Funk and we're all supposed to know about the sick horse story. Vince is so mad he puts him in an Intercontinental Championship match against Kane! But Funk wins with a small package and escapes like a thief in the night with the Harris Twins. Vince refuses to send any of his big guns after Terry only sending guys like Malenko and Eddie to soften him up. However Funk messes with Vince by no-showing the PPV! Worth noting that the majority of these PPV cards are all just one match cards.

King of the Ring 2001 - Terry Funk > Kane

Bash at the Beach 2001 - Kurt Angle > Rick Steiner

SummerSlam 2001 - NO DQ: The Steiner Bros > The Radicalz (Saturn/Malenko)

Fall Brawl 2001 - Terry Funk vs. Dean Malenko (Funk No Shows)

No Mercy 2001 - Brock Lesnar > Balls Mahoney. Terry Funk > Eddie Guerrero

Survivor Series 2001 - Bam Bam Bigelow > Tazz (Tazz is released by the WWF just to work the fans). HHH (in his return match from a quad tear that may or may not have happened) > Funk for the IC Championship

Armaggeddon 2001 - Terry Funk > ? (Taker returns and Tombstones Funk for reasons). Sting > Chris Jericho in a Montreal Screwjob

Royal Rumble 2002 - Steve Austin > ? to win the WWF Championship. Rock > Jarrett, after the match the Rock cuts a promo on Sting. Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit in a draw. Hogan returns.

Superbrawl 2002 - Dusty/Hogan worked shoot promo about doing jobs. Sting > Edge, Sting finally gives a response to The Rock promo

Somewhere in there, Foley walks out on the WWF only to become Cactus Jack and win the WCW Championship (from Booker T?)

It's just such a mess trying to follow.

One of the things I get from Cornette is how he tries to over-explain everything. It's like he has to have his cake and eat it as well and instead of accepting the short hand that the audience is privvy to a backstage conversation, we need to have a woman video tape a parking lot altercation and they need to have a little girl to explain why the camera person didn't attempt to help Funk when he's jumped by WWF talent. He's got Austin talking about wrestlers welfare like that's something his character ever gave a damn about.

I'll give it some credit...

Atleast it isn't some hindsight booking. Like it's so easy to be a Captain Hindsight and come in and say make Austin a babyface, don't make DDP a stalker, book the nWo stronger etc. but that's something children could have some up with. I at least enjoy the insight about trying to make the angle more serious and more violent. Trying to get rid of the comedy skits and bringing in the brand split early so you could build guys up for when they go head to head on PPV. I think what stands out to me is how he tries to recreate the Civil War and make it a North vs. South thing. Guys like Funk, Cactus and Dusty don't make any sense but it's just about trying to establish WCW as a brand and having that clash against Vince. Of course Jim is incredibly bias towards southern wrestlers so the main event has two Texans represent the North but there's something to be said about how bookers ultimately book for themselves.

I get it as well because he was going off a list KC gave him. The WCW roster he had to work with was: Booker T, Diamond Dallas Page, Buff Bagwell, Stacey Keibler, Torrie Wilson, Lance Storm, Sean O'Haire, Mark Jindrak, Chuck Palumbo, Mike Sanders, Reno, Mike Awesome, Hugh Morrus, Billy Kidman, Chavo Guerrero Jr., Shane Helms, Shannon Moore, Evan Karaigias, Johnny The Bull, Lash LeRoux, Jamie Noble, Kwee Wee, Jason Jett etc. Although I doubt Tajiri even crossed his mind, I'd imagine he was on the WWF roster at the time which is why he didn't include Tajiri. This was also shot in 2009 I think? Cornette was a big fan of Steve Corino in ROH and built a long term storyline where he eventually put him back with Steen after Corino tried to be a role model veteran which sounds like a JC idea. I'd like to think if this was shot two years later, Corny would have put Corino over.

Otherwise for all the decent observation and commentary Jim has, when it comes to having your finger on the pulse it's been clear since the 90s he's been way off.

Let's be fair, the reason he didn't pick Goldberg was not because Goldberg wouldn't be available to him because of Time Warner, because he still took The Steiners and Hogan and Nash. He didn't pick Goldberg because Goldberg DIDN'T HAVE RESPECT FOR THIS BIZZNESS.

Apr 25, 2022 14:50:51 GMT KITN said:

Let's be fair, the reason he didn't pick Goldberg was not because Goldberg wouldn't be available to him because of Time Warner, because he still took The Steiners and Hogan and Nash. He didn't pick Goldberg because Goldberg DIDN'T HAVE RESPECT FOR THIS BIZZNESS.

That's definitely a part of it. He even said something to that effect in the shoot and I doubt he knew that Bill was earning 2.5-3 million to stay at home till 2003.

Still, I don't think Corny necessarily hates Bill. He doesn't like that the WWE are still turning to him after all these years. He views that as a failure of the star-making process which is a fair conclusion but I think he's always given Bill his due as a star and as an athlete.

Apr 24, 2022 3:53:32 GMT Kilgore said:

I think he's also a product of Flair. Didn't Flair plug him into the formula pre-Rooster, then people thought Taylor was great, but every moment after that has proved that it was just Flair being Flair, making an opponent look better than he really was? And now that we have history on our side, and as much footage as there ever will be, it's not like a bunch of Taylor stuff has emerged to better his reputation. I think he was merely overrated pre-Rooster, then Rooster gave him an out for underachieving, he became a martyr for a bad gimmick, instead of a guy that probably would have been gradually exposed as nothing special in a non-Red Rooster universe. 

Agree with all this. Perfectly stated.
=========
Thanks for the memory refresher on Cornette's crappy rebook Big Pete

WHY DID HE BOOK DUSTY VS HOGAN IN 2002?! Because Dusty sold out MSG first? Who cares?!

Oh! Oh! Baker, speaking of Jeff Jarrett! The reason he had Jeff Jarrett (multiple-time world champion at this point) was to be in a tag team with fucking DUSTIN RHODES to be WCW's equivalent to the fucking HARDY BOYZ, a team they were at least a decade older than. And he had Booker T near the bottom of the card LOSING the IC/US title unification match. Whatever stars he had that WCW had actually been able to make, he threw into the fucking trash to push Terry Funk and Dusty Rhodes and Cactus Jack. It felt less like he was booking WWF vs WCW and more like he was booking WWF vs. Jim Crockett Promotions.

KITN We could dunk on Cornette's crappy Invasion rebook for a week. It's mind-numbingly bad. First time I listened to it like 8 or 9 years ago I still had a modicum of belief in Cornette as this genius wrestling mind. It ended there. Still think he's the GOAT manager, loved his 1997 shoots on Raw, and he has value as a walking encyclopedia of old school wrestling knowledge, but his takes on anything over the past 30 years or so are largely a hot mess.

Don't remember him pushing JJ & Dustin as WCW's answer to the Hardys. I'm not going to say it didn't happen because everything else was so terrible. Just that I don't specifically remember it. Anyway, I'm not against the idea of them as an old school team of second generation Southerners, but they're a poor matchup for the Hardys. Put them in with the APA or Dudleys and book something like Hardys vs. Rey & Kidman and I honestly would have been ok with it.

Speaking of the Dudleys....I didn't like Corny jobbing them to the Road Warriors in 2002. At least he saved some face by saying the Duds would get their win back.

HHH as IC Champ in a midcard match was another lol moment.

Corny- "These are all first time matches!" Then he goes ahead and books a rematch from the previous Wrestlemania in Angle vs. Benoit.

Did he ever bring Taz back after the worked shoot firing against Bigelow? I don't remember that happening. Maybe he was in the throwaway Battle Royal?

Hogan/Dusty was the dumbest match of them all. 56 year old Dusty refusing to job to Hulk Hogan still has me at a loss for words.

You're spot on about it being more of a WWF vs. JCP show than WWF vs. WCW. Ed beat us both to the punch on that one.

Candido sticks out like a sore thumb in Eddie/Dean/Saturn vs. Rey/Chavo/Candido

The only reason Candido even gets booked is because Jim likes him personally. 

Imagine Kurt Angle saying "I'll put a sandwich on your back and starve you to death." 

Another thing I just remembered! He had Undertaker as the Deadman again! Even though he'd been Big Evil for like a year at that point! But then when Undertaker does the "shows up when the lights go out" bit, he has Vince cackle about how he still controls the lighting rig because, to quote Jim, "How else are you gonna have a fucking blackout?" BECAUSE DEADMAN UNDERTAKER IS MAGIC, JIM! YOU GAVE HIM THE GIMMICK WHERE HE'S A MAGIC UNDEAD ZOMBIE THAT SHOOTS LIGHTNING FROM HIS FUCKING HANDS. 

Yeah, even booking The LOD as a top-of-the-card act in 2002 is laughable. Again, WWF vs. JCP

To be fair, Cornette liked the Deadman gimmick but hated some of the gaga the WWE had Taker do so trying to find a logical way to explain it sounds on brand from Jim. Keep in mind, this is the same guy who was tasked with getting the Boogeyman main roster ready so Jim went into business for himself and explained that The Boogeyman was a highly dangerous mental patient who thought he was the Boogeyman. In a round-a-bout way this would spell the end of Jim's time in OVW/WWE.

Another mistake - Rock vs. Jarrett never happened. Apparently, it did! Sunday Night Heat 1998, in an incredibly long 6 1/2 minutes.

I don't think Jeff/Dustin were necessarily meant to be young guys, they were just being paired together to take on the Hardys since they were second generation stars. I took it more they were gate-keepers but Jim was all over the place it's difficult to understand what his point was.

I thought there would be a proper explanation behind Hogan/Dusty to explain why they had to have that match. Instead, what happened was Jim would have Hogan return at the Rumble and cut a standard Hogan promo about how great he is and his legacy in the business. We'd then wait until next month's PPV where Dusty would take exception to the promo and remind Hogan he was strumming a guitar while he was selling out Madison Square Garden. Then to settle it they'd have a match at Wrestlemania with Cornette in Dusty's corner and getting Dusty DQ'd because Dusty wouldn't do a clean job in his final match to Hogan.

But it's already established that Undertaker can turn the lights off BECAUSE HE'S MAGIC. By having Vince cackle about how he can turn off the lighting rig, that implies that every single time the lights went out before The Undertaker showed up, even when he was the Satanic Lord of Darkness, even when he was attacking Vince and Vince's family, it was because some geek in the back was told to turn off the lights. Yes, that's what happens in real life, but not everything has to be a shoot, Jim Russo!

If Jim had his way, he'd retcon all that in the name of believability. The issue is that it's like explaining a joke. The material loses it's impact so it's better to let the cards fall where they may. Wrestling fans are willing to suspend their disbelief just enough to be entertained and the lights on lights off was so well established that nobody needed a justification.

My biggest gripe with the whole exercise is how much political jargon is involved. Nobody cares about the McMahon/Flair/Bischoff stuff, that was the original issue with the Invasion that it focused far too much on the McMahons/Regal/Foley etc. They especially don't care about Vince's beef with Terry Funk or Austin whinging about the welfare of the wrestlers.

I think the reason why I'm so interested in this topic is that it's something I've been thinking about for 20 years. I'm sure you're all the same and you've all got different takes on your own ideal WCW vs. WWF storyline.

Apr 26, 2022 14:37:43 GMT Big Pete said:

Another mistake - Rock vs. Jarrett never happened. Apparently, it did! Sunday Night Heat 1998, in an incredibly long 6 1/2 minutes.

Wrote about it last year in the Match Review thread because of course I did. Called it "a fun popcorn match full of that Attitude Era energy."
===========
I've spent enough time dunking on Cornette's crummy Invasion rebook. Now it's time to show how easy it would be to improve. Came up with this in literally 5 minutes while daydreaming at work as I am wont to do... 

Steve Austin vs. Goldberg
The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan
Undertaker vs. Sting
Triple H vs. Randy Savage
Kurt Angle vs. Scott Steiner
Dudleys vs. Outsiders
Chris Jericho vs. Booker T
Kane vs. DDP
Hardys/Edge & Christian vs. Rey/Kidman/Kanyon/Helms- Ladder Match
Big Show vs. Jeff Jarrett
APA vs. Kronik
Get Everybody On The Show Battle Royal

Thinking back on it, one of the reasons why Booker T adjusted so well to the WWF is because Russo did a pretty good job of prepping him for the company. Booker went from a non-descript character to a catchphrase machine in a matter of weeks when Russo put the belt on him. You could just see Russo's wheels spinning and just going on and on about his character and how all the big stars need catchphrases.

Does anyone genuinely believe they could have got a 3 year storyline out of a WCW invasion? I really don't see any substance there. At most I can see some fun fan service, but it'd essentially be a long ECW ONS type of deal. Besides the WWF had effectively drunk WCW's milkshake. After bringing in Jericho, Show, Raven and the Radicalz - that was half the appeal WCW had right there. There were maybe a dozen other guys you could bring in and actively push, otherwise they really didn't hold that much value for the company moving forward.

Outside of DDP, I can't think of any WCW guy who was just completely buried. They mishandled a lot of talent, but they had been mishandling talent for years - there were just some guys who weren't talented enough to overcome it.

OK there was Sting. I still don't know wtf that was about, but that was 14 years later.

The feud with The Rock buried Booker T six feet under. The Rock came back, called Booker a stupid moron, beat him clean, the whole time Jim Ross is on commentary, the voice of the WWF, calling Booker T a Rock ripoff, a loser, a joke that isn't in The Rock's league, and so on. The angle basically portrayed Booker as a big dumb idiot that didn't know how to read, The Rock beat him AGAIN in a handicap match with Shane AND a bunch of run-ins to try and help Booker, and he still absolutely jabronied him. It took Booker almost a year to get over again and get hot enough to be a main event level player, and then he was buried YET AGAIN and that was pretty much it for Booker until like 2006.

Apr 27, 2022 19:56:13 GMT KITN said:

The feud with The Rock buried Booker T six feet under. The Rock came back, called Booker a stupid moron, beat him clean, the whole time Jim Ross is on commentary, the voice of the WWF, calling Booker T a Rock ripoff, a loser, a joke that isn't in The Rock's league, and so on. The angle basically portrayed Booker as a big dumb idiot that didn't know how to read, The Rock beat him AGAIN in a handicap match with Shane AND a bunch of run-ins to try and help Booker, and he still absolutely jabronied him. It took Booker almost a year to get over again and get hot enough to be a main event level player, and then he was buried YET AGAIN and that was pretty much it for Booker until like 2006.

Tell me you did not just say that...

And even when he had the awesome King gimmick... HHH buries him a second time for his return match. Booker got over in spite of so much shit.

I agree with Big Pete . A good Invasion angle could/should have lasted a year. Longer than that you risk burnout. The 4-5 months we did get was WWF not even trying.

Booker fit in right away with his catchphrases, spinaroonie, and over the top facial expression. He got WWF style sports entertainment. Honestly felt like a guy who had always worked there. The only other WCW guy to really get it early on was Shane Helms with the Hurricane gimmick. No surprise those two had lengthy, ultimately successful runs while so many of their peers were soon gone and forgotten.

Apr 27, 2022 19:56:13 GMT KITN said:

The feud with The Rock buried Booker T six feet under. The Rock came back, called Booker a stupid moron, beat him clean, the whole time Jim Ross is on commentary, the voice of the WWF, calling Booker T a Rock ripoff, a loser, a joke that isn't in The Rock's league, and so on. The angle basically portrayed Booker as a big dumb idiot that didn't know how to read, The Rock beat him AGAIN in a handicap match with Shane AND a bunch of run-ins to try and help Booker, and he still absolutely jabronied him. It took Booker almost a year to get over again and get hot enough to be a main event level player, and then he was buried YET AGAIN and that was pretty much it for Booker until like 2006.

I still wouldn't say he was completely buried. Compare and contrast to DDP who never rubbed shoulders with the main event again after SummerSlam, Booker actually went onto beat The Brothers of Destruction and would become a focal point of the show post-Austin.

I think it comes down to your perception of Booker and Booker for me was never really established as THE guy in WCW. His World Title win virtually came out of nowhere, he dropped it to Nash, Russo and finally Steiner before they gave him a nice send off by letting him beat Steiner in the curtain jerker match of the show. The WCW roster wasn't all that great at the time so in the grand scheme of things being booked behind Austin, Rock, Angle, HHH, Jericho etc. was about right.

I had a similar impression of Booker post-WMXIX as well (which also virtually came out of nowhere). However going back to these old SmackDowns and Booker was clearly portrayed as right in the title hunt more and they even had him beat Angle on PPV after Kurt was established as the best wrestler in the company post-WMXXI.

The only other names that come to me were Shawn Stasiak and David Flair. I'm not broken up about either of them, but David stands out because he was a major part of the show from 1999-01 and they barely ever had him appear on WWF television. Again, I think it highlights just how bad things were in WCW and how we missed the boat on the Invasion. If the Invasion happens in 1999 than it's a perfect storm.

Apr 28, 2022 4:48:59 GMT Big Pete said:

Apr 27, 2022 19:56:13 GMT KITN said:

The feud with The Rock buried Booker T six feet under. The Rock came back, called Booker a stupid moron, beat him clean, the whole time Jim Ross is on commentary, the voice of the WWF, calling Booker T a Rock ripoff, a loser, a joke that isn't in The Rock's league, and so on. The angle basically portrayed Booker as a big dumb idiot that didn't know how to read, The Rock beat him AGAIN in a handicap match with Shane AND a bunch of run-ins to try and help Booker, and he still absolutely jabronied him. It took Booker almost a year to get over again and get hot enough to be a main event level player, and then he was buried YET AGAIN and that was pretty much it for Booker until like 2006.

I still wouldn't say he was completely buried. Compare and contrast to DDP who never rubbed shoulders with the main event again after SummerSlam, Booker actually went onto beat The Brothers of Destruction and would become a focal point of the show post-Austin.

I think it comes down to your perception of Booker and Booker for me was never really established as THE guy in WCW. His World Title win virtually came out of nowhere, he dropped it to Nash, Russo and finally Steiner before they gave him a nice send off by letting him beat Steiner in the curtain jerker match of the show. The WCW roster wasn't all that great at the time so in the grand scheme of things being booked behind Austin, Rock, Angle, HHH, Jericho etc. was about right.

I had a similar impression of Booker post-WMXIX as well (which also virtually came out of nowhere). However going back to these old SmackDowns and Booker was clearly portrayed as right in the title hunt more and they even had him beat Angle on PPV after Kurt was established as the best wrestler in the company post-WMXXI.

The only other names that come to me were Shawn Stasiak and David Flair. I'm not broken up about either of them, but David stands out because he was a major part of the show from 1999-01 and they barely ever had him appear on WWF television. Again, I think it highlights just how bad things were in WCW and how we missed the boat on the Invasion. If the Invasion happens in 1999 than it's a perfect storm.

Go on about this perfect storm. Is it because it when certain big WCW contracts were renewed that fucked up 2001? Or because Giant, Jericho, and the Radicalz hadn't jumped yet?

Apr 28, 2022 12:09:54 GMT 🤯 said:

Apr 28, 2022 4:48:59 GMT Big Pete said:

I still wouldn't say he was completely buried. Compare and contrast to DDP who never rubbed shoulders with the main event again after SummerSlam, Booker actually went onto beat The Brothers of Destruction and would become a focal point of the show post-Austin.

I think it comes down to your perception of Booker and Booker for me was never really established as THE guy in WCW. His World Title win virtually came out of nowhere, he dropped it to Nash, Russo and finally Steiner before they gave him a nice send off by letting him beat Steiner in the curtain jerker match of the show. The WCW roster wasn't all that great at the time so in the grand scheme of things being booked behind Austin, Rock, Angle, HHH, Jericho etc. was about right.

I had a similar impression of Booker post-WMXIX as well (which also virtually came out of nowhere). However going back to these old SmackDowns and Booker was clearly portrayed as right in the title hunt more and they even had him beat Angle on PPV after Kurt was established as the best wrestler in the company post-WMXXI.

The only other names that come to me were Shawn Stasiak and David Flair. I'm not broken up about either of them, but David stands out because he was a major part of the show from 1999-01 and they barely ever had him appear on WWF television. Again, I think it highlights just how bad things were in WCW and how we missed the boat on the Invasion. If the Invasion happens in 1999 than it's a perfect storm.

Go on about this perfect storm. Is it because it when certain big WCW contracts were renewed that fucked up 2001? Or because Giant, Jericho, and the Radicalz hadn't jumped yet?

Perfect storm in that both companies were at the peak of popularity. Bret was still active and would have added an interesting intrigue on his own while the nWo, DX, Ministry etc. don't feel dated.

Plus as you pointed out, the WWF virtually signed the under-card from WCW which was the one advantage they had over the WWF. Pretty much anyone who meant anything in the undercard worked WWF/E at some point. The few people who didn't were conspicuous by their absence but at the same time you couldn't say the WWF really missed out.

I hadn't even thought about the Goldberg pre-Barry Bloom deal but that's just another element.

Apr 28, 2022 13:16:12 GMT Big Pete said:

Apr 28, 2022 12:09:54 GMT 🤯 said:

Go on about this perfect storm. Is it because it when certain big WCW contracts were renewed that fucked up 2001? Or because Giant, Jericho, and the Radicalz hadn't jumped yet?

Perfect storm in that both companies were at the peak of popularity. Bret was still active and would have added an interesting intrigue on his own while the nWo, DX, Ministry etc. don't feel dated.

Plus as you pointed out, the WWF virtually signed the under-card from WCW which was the one advantage they had over the WWF. Pretty much anyone who meant anything in the undercard worked WWF/E at some point. The few people who didn't were conspicuous by their absence but at the same time you couldn't say the WWF really missed out.

I hadn't even thought about the Goldberg pre-Barry Bloom deal but that's just another element.

The timing of the perfect storm in 1999 seems really critical, and the "Invasion" at most would probably only be months-long still. Austin is banged up and working less by summer and then written out by November. Generally same story for Undertaker. Foley is just as banged up but grinding through, but is leaning way more into the comedy. HBK is done as an in-ring talent, and HHH isn't really made yet per se as a main event name. Giant came in so early in 1999 and Jericho in mid-1999 so their arrivals make for weird timing depending on what you want to achieve with them.

No idea what's going on on WCW's side of things, but kicking 1999 off with the Finger Poke seemed to put them in a hole creatively. Who's injured on their side and/or not yet established? Had Booker T broken out on his own in a big way yet? Was Big Poppa Pump established? Isn't this when Eric Bischoff was on the outs, so likely no Bischoff vs. McMahon hook? Is this the Tomato Sting run? When does Flair come back from being on the outs? Goldberg's streak is dead. Had he been rebuilt in any meaningful way? Or were they already doing the Arquette as world champ thing, and mixing Jay Leno into main events?

Looking exclusively at WCW's Uncensored 1999 results from 3/14 and WWF's WrestleMania XV results from 3/28 and knowing or recalling nothing about TV results between or after each show...

I'm assuming the "perfect storm" is a several PPV arc stretching from April 1999 to October 1999. Once we lose Stone Cold, what's the point?

Someone who's more familiar with WCW especially will have to help correct me here, but it seems like the first "Hostile Takeover" PPV in April would feature something like...

WCW Tag Team Champions Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko vs. WWF Tag Team Champions Owen Hart & Jeff Jarrett (w/ Debra)

Hardcore Match: WWF Hardcore Champion BOBCORE vs. WCW Hardcore Champion Hak

WCW Television Champion Booker T vs. Billy Gunn

WWF Intercontinental Champion Road Dogg vs. (soon-to-be WCW United States Champion?) Scott Steiner

Triple H (w/ Chyna) vs. Chris Jericho (w/ Ralphus)

Mankind vs. (soon-to-be WCW World Champion?) Diamond Dallas Page

Goldberg vs. Ken Shamrock

WCW World Champion Ric Flair vs. The Rock

The Undertaker vs. Sting

WWF World Champion Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. Hollywood Hulk Hogan

?

So when I was thinking 1999, I was thinking specifically about Goldberg challenging Austin to a fight on Leno back in February of 1999.

So I'll try to break down WCW.

I actually think the start of 1999 is a great launching point for WCW. The nWo is back together so you don't have this half-hearted Black and White vs. Wolfpac feud going on. Scott Steiner is back and is being pushed as Hogan's right hand-man and the Starscream of the nWo. He has one of the biggest feuds of his career where he beats DDP and puts him on the shelf and eventually wins the US Title when that meant something. Unfortunately he suffered a career threatening injury around Spring Stampede so he was off TV until he pulled a Mark Henry Salmon Jacket moment to kick off WCW 2000. Booker T returned from a torn ACL and was gunning for Bret Hart who was in kayfabe responsible for it. It should have been Booker going over, but WCW was weird and had Bret drop it to Piper who lost it to Hall who had to be taken off television because of his alcohol problems (but we could write around that!).

Tomato Sting is a distant memory. Sting started off 1999 getting clean, sober and most of all-tanned before coming back around Spring Stampede and putting in some of his best work. Flair returned on the September 14th 1998 edition of Nitro (remember the date, one of the greatest Nitros of all-time) and was over HUGE. Did you hear how over Punk was when he came out on the second episode of Rampage? Exact same reaction, fans were so elated to have Flair back and he was just as over as ever. To put it into context Hogan/Flair @ Superbrawl outdrew Austin/McMahon and was the last victory WCW had on PPV. Of course they'd go onto ruin this but if we get in before that happens we're gold.

Speaking of Gold, I'd argue Bill was just as over as ever. Fans were molten to see Goldberg get the title back, the problem was they kept sidelining him. Still he'd headline Nitros teaming up with Rick Steiner to take down Scotty and Buff. WCW really dropped the ball with Bill.

The only real downside is that Eddie suffered his car crash around New Years of 1999 and it took him years to adjust. Eddie would return in July, but it was pretty clear that he returned prematurely. Outside of him and Scott Hall (we could still totally write around that!) I think they're in a good place.

Apr 28, 2022 14:55:17 GMT 🤯 said:

Looking exclusively at WCW's Uncensored 1999 results from 3/14 and WWF's WrestleMania XV results from 3/28 and knowing or recalling nothing about TV results between or after each show...

I'm assuming the "perfect storm" is a several PPV arc stretching from April 1999 to October 1999. Once we lose Stone Cold, what's the point?

Someone who's more familiar with WCW especially will have to help correct me here, but it seems like the first "Hostile Takeover" PPV in April would feature something like...

WCW Tag Team Champions Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko vs. WWF Tag Team Champions Owen Hart & Jeff Jarrett (w/ Debra)

Hardcore Match: WWF Hardcore Champion BOBCORE vs. WCW Hardcore Champion Hak

WCW Television Champion Booker T vs. Billy Gunn

WWF Intercontinental Champion Road Dogg vs. (soon-to-be WCW United States Champion?) Scott Steiner

Triple H (w/ Chyna) vs. Chris Jericho (w/ Ralphus)

Mankind vs. (soon-to-be WCW World Champion?) Diamond Dallas Page

Goldberg vs. Ken Shamrock

WCW World Champion Ric Flair vs. The Rock

The Undertaker vs. Sting

WWF World Champion Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. Hollywood Hulk Hogan

?

So I'll try to give you some context to these characters.

Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko were loyal to Flair and essentially went after Hennig since they were still playing on the events from Fall Brawl 1997 till now. Hennig/Windham actually won the belts first, but then Benoit/Malenko would eventually win them later on. When Flair used his authority to screw Hogan out of the WCW Championship and finally give the nWo a taste of their own medicine, he turned heel so they became their new vicious lap-dogs. This was confirmed when Raven wanted more opportunities, so Flair booked him in a handicap match only for long time on and off again friend Saturn came into make the save.

Hardcore Hak was pretty much Hardcore Holly. He originally debuted as Raven's high school friend but when they dropped the Piper-Raven storyline, he re-debuted brandishing a singapore cane and wrapped in barb wire and took issue with Bam Bam Bigelow's copycat hardcore antics.

DDP was injured by Steiner at Superbrawl and returned six weeks later on Nitro. He confronted Ric Flair who he had a long history with and Flair cut him a deal. He wasn't going to give DDP a rematch against Steiner, instead he was going to do what he says and face Hogan. DDP went along with it and effectively turned heel although WCW were really playing around with faces/heels around that time. Sting also returned on that show and appeared in the rafters. He'd later come down with a message from the Macho Man who declared that Flair would defend his title against DDP, Hogan and Sting at Spring Stampede and Savage would officiate the match. Despite being the boss, Flair went along with it anyways.

Let me add a match...

Torrie Wilson (w/Kevin Nash) vs. Sable

Got to have a women's match and Torrie debuted at Superbrawl and wooed David into turning on Ric and costing him the match. If that seems to on the nose, just bring in Madusa. She wasn't really on television but it seemed like she was on stand-by considering Macho brought her and Molly Holly in alongside his girlfriend Gorgeous George.

Beyond the Red Rooster gimmick, I've always thought Terry Taylor was an overhyped windbag. If Kerry Von Erich, JYD, Ron Fuller, Hulk Hogan, and RRP never existed he still would be the #2-4 babyface or heel in a territory. The guy was credible enough to be taken seriously but he wasn't dynamic in any measure.

RRP?