May 30, 2022 23:41:05 GMT Baker said:

Anybody else think it's weird that 3 of the classic Big 5 pay per views (Royal Rumble, King of the Ring, Survivor Series) were gimmick shows?

Not particularly. House shows were still the big moneymaker so they didn't want shows that gave the matches you were trying to sell house show tickets for. The Battle Royal was a massive deal in the 70s and early 80s, so doing a variation made sense. You seldom saw the top stars interacting with each other on TV in the late 80s, so the idea of them teaming up and facing off in giant tag matches had an obvious selling point. I know people often say tournaments don't sell, but KOTR also had the benefit of giving a fresh restart for the King gimmick. I can see why they were what they were.

It is interesting how quickly the gimmicks lost the confidence of the company.

First two Survivor Series shows were Teams of Five Strive to Survive. By 1989 it was 4-on-4 matches due to the roster size shrinking and you can promote more matches with a smaller roster that way. In 1990, they added the Ultimate Survivor match, I imagine mainly to get Hogan and Warrior together for the end, but to also give the show another selling point. In 1991, we had the first non Survivor Series tag match (Hogan/Taker for the title) and then a year later it was flipped, with only one Survivor Series tag on the show.

With KOTR, the final didn't close the show after the first edition and by the fourth (1996), they'd already gone to the quarters being off the show and done on TV in the build.

I wonder if the Rumble would have gone a similar route if they had never added the Mania title shot stip. This was likely done as they thought the match itself was losing steam as an attraction. Otherwise, would we have seen the Rumble become reduced in size and become a lesser part of the show? Maybe down to a 20-man Rumble like the TV special original in 1988. That may have been one of the better creative decisions the WWF ever made.

May 30, 2022 23:41:05 GMT Baker said:

Does Anybody else think it's weird that 3 of the classic Big 5 pay per views (Royal Rumble, King of the Ring, Survivor Series) were gimmick shows?

Nope WWF has always been a larger-than-life company, with gimmicks & things beyond the ring.

May 31, 2022 6:47:50 GMT Strobe said:

May 30, 2022 23:41:05 GMT Baker said:

Anybody else think it's weird that 3 of the classic Big 5 pay per views (Royal Rumble, King of the Ring, Survivor Series) were gimmick shows?

Not particularly. House shows were still the big moneymaker so they didn't want shows that gave the matches you were trying to sell house show tickets for. 

That's the story I've heard from Bruce Prichard and others. Makes sense.

May 31, 2022 17:24:49 GMT Ed said:

Nope WWF has always been a larger-than-life company, with gimmicks & things beyond the ring.

Also a good point.

To be fair I never thought twice about it as a kid. That's just the way it was. Wasn't until 95-96 that I was like "Wait a minute. That's a little weird."
===============
Watched a Summerslam 89 review on Youtube and it got me back to thinking Rick Martel & The Fabulous Rougeau Brothers should have formed a heat magnet stable called Qlub Quebec.

Along those same lines Tex Slazenger & Shanghai Pierce should have been in the Stud Stable with Colonel Parker, Bunkhouse Buck, and Terry Funk in 1994 WCW since The Texicans fit that whole Southern brawler vibe they were going for. 

First time I saw KOTR and the quarters were on tv I thought it was really lame. Very common in the era of endless content, but it made it seem like less of a big deal to me. Shut up Edge least Billy went the distance!

Jun 1, 2022 1:40:07 GMT @ness said:

First time I saw KOTR and the quarters were on tv I thought it was really lame. 

Complete opposite for me. When the 1993 KOTR came around I was like "Whoa! That looks awesome!" Truth is I was just a sucker for tournaments. See also: Wrestlemania IV which I overrated for at least a decade because "Yay! Tournaments!."  Plus I was still a big enough mark to believe anyone really could win (WWF Champion Dino Bravo!). Tournaments just seemed so big and epic to kiddie me. I was also a huge March Madness mark. Only thing I didn't like about 1993 in real time was Bret Hart getting a first round bye. My inner Jesse Ventura surfaced as I bemoaned WWF once again giving a good guy special treatment.

The KOTR magic also wore off a little each year. 1995 had the unlikely Mabel win. Which I didn't even hate at first! I was willing to give it a shot. But when he was gone by January 96 it killed the whole "KOTR is a big deal!" thing they had built up nicely with the Bret & Owen wins. By 1996 it was down to just the final two rounds on PPV. 1999 was garbage. By 2001 I couldn't have cared less about who won KOTR.

There was nothing cooler you could do than a tournament of anything. Like Baker WM4 was the coolest Wrestlemania (until you re-watched it, but it would immediately be memory holed and re-remembered as the coolest Wrestlemania). The first King of the Ring had the benefit of being the first real tourney since WM4 (which you still remembered as the coolest Wrestlemania), then overachieved on the back of Bret, who was perfect for the gimmick. I have to say, even Owen seemed like a step down the next year, although the way Owen milked it afterwards is why Owen is one of the greatest ever, but it was almost immediately diminishing returns, even Austin's not giving the instantaneous bump it's remembered for getting (and that's even with Austin 3:16!). I guess it's just one of those things better on paper, so the more you see it, the less favorable a novelty it becomes, and it just is, which isn't much.

I have to say, maybe it was just me, but seeing a wrestler TWICE was oddly exciting. The Royal Rumble had this, too. Someone that worked a match earlier, would then enter the Rumble, and there was added drama being built off what had happened previously in the night (Bret in 1994 the GOAT example). So KOTR had a bit of that, too. Until, like anything, you've seen it too many times, and it loses its previously once-in-a-while-wonder.

Jun 1, 2022 2:56:32 GMT Kilgore said:

Like Baker WM4 was the coolest Wrestlemania (until you re-watched it, but it would immediately be memory holed and re-remembered as the coolest Wrestlemania). The first King of the Ring had the benefit of being the first real tourney since WM4 (which you still remembered as the coolest Wrestlemania),

the more you see it, the less favorable a novelty it becomes, and it just is, which isn't much. Until, like anything, you've seen it too many times, and it loses its previously once-in-a-while-wonder.

Can confirm. Bolded made me chuckle because it's spot on. Great point about the novelty factor wearing off as well.

In terms of hype going into a Mania, IV was my personal champion (even ahead of III!) all the way until XIV. 

Somewhat related to what started all this chatter....I know I've mentioned it before, but I loved Survivor Series the same way most people love the Rumble. Like that was my show. I loved all the big super teams. Loved all the interactions between wrestlers you wouldn't normally see interact. LOVED the Ultimate Survivor concept match at 1990. But like everything else the novelty factor wore off and it eventually ran its course. 

My first SS was 98 with the tournament (also my first ppv viewing) - so bad that I didn't understand why it went down and was confused why SS99 didn't have a tournament as well.

Jun 1, 2022 3:08:29 GMT Baker said:

Somewhat related to what started this chatter....I know I've mentioned this before, but I loved Survivor Series the same way most people loved the Rumble. Like that was my show. I loved all the big super teams. Loved all the interactions between wrestlers you wouldn't normally see interact. LOVED the Ultimate Survivor Match at 1990. But like everything else the novelty factor wore off and it eventually ran its course. 

Same! Survivor Series Tag Matches, unfortunately, are just a relic of a long dead era where you rarely saw stars in the ring at the same time, but during that window of time where it was fresh, it was the best gimmick match, even better than the Rumble. It could be such a blank canvas to mold multiple storylines in multiple short form singles matches in between all the tags, it's a little unfortunate that WWF wasn't really a "workrate" territory, or some of those matches would be remembered as some of the best of its era (sort of like War Games matches).

The problem with the Rumble has always been that it's still a battle royal, and throwing people over the tope rope kind of sucks, and kind of has nothing to do with what we normally like about wrestling matches. *

But Survivor Series had the purity of still being "normal" in the sense that you were seeing the biggest stars simply wrestle each other, pins, submissions, hot tags, the good stuff.

* The perfect gimmick match has not been invented yet, which would combine the surprise element of Rumbles with conventional ways of winning. Closest thing we've got are a surprise participant gauntlet match (I think Lucha Underground did those), but that's not the best gimmick match ever. There's something hiding in plain sight that hasn't been figured out yet. 

Jun 1, 2022 4:16:38 GMT Kilgore said:

* The perfect gimmick match has not been invented yet, which would combine the surprise element of Rumbles with conventional ways of winning. Closest thing we've got are a surprise participant gauntlet match (I think Lucha Underground did those), but that's not the best gimmick match ever. There's something hiding in plain sight that hasn't been figured out yet. 

That sounds like Aztec Warfare from Lucha Underground which was basically the Royal Rumble with pinfalls/submissions only.

It was a really good match as well that's been lost in time like a lot of LU stuff.

Yeah, I was about to say, Kilgore's literally describing Aztec Warfare and Battle Riot from MLW.

Jun 1, 2022 3:34:54 GMT Kilgore said:

The problem with the Rumble has always been that it's still a battle royal, and throwing people over the tope rope kind of sucks, and kind of has nothing to do with what we normally like about wrestling matches. *

But Survivor Series had the purity of still being "normal" in the sense that you were seeing the biggest stars simply wrestle each other, pins, submissions, hot tags, the good stuff.

I don't want to come off as anti-Rumble. I like the Rumble too! Push comes to shove I'd still take a card of classic Survivor Series matches over one Rumble, but the beauty of the Rumble (which is good!) comes from two things...

1. The staggered entrances allow for more stuff to happen than your typical crowded Battle Royal. The Rumble is a streamlined Battle Royal.
2. The staggered entrances also build anticipation. We all know the most fun part of any Rumble is the anticipation over who will be next.

However the entrances are also a hindrance from a kayfabe perspective since so much of it comes down to sheer luck of the draw. Even as a kid this bothered me. Always thought it would be cool for them to have a bunch of tv matches leading up to the Rumble where wins/losses determine the order of entry. 

Classic Survivor Series matches weren't perfect either. One thing that bothered me about them (even as a young 'un!) is you'd see wrestlers get pinned by weak moves that would never finish a regular match. I feel like more wrestlers got pinned after simple clotheslines in Survivor Series matches than every non-Survivor Series WWF match from the mid 80s until the debut of Bradshaw.

Jun 1, 2022 23:51:11 GMT Baker said:

Classic Survivor Series matches weren't perfect either. One thing that bothered me about them (even as a young 'un!) is you'd see wrestlers get pinned by weak moves that would never finish a regular match. I feel like more wrestlers got pinned after simple clotheslines in Survivor Series matches than every non-Survivor Series WWF match from the mid 80s until the debut of Bradshaw.

Absolutely. The Survivor Series Paradox: More modern workrate would elevate the matches quality, while more modern times would diminish the matches meaning and wonder.

Jun 1, 2022 8:15:26 GMT KITN said:

Yeah, I was about to say, Kilgore's literally describing Aztec Warfare and Battle Riot from MLW.

Yes! I first had the rant right as LU had their version and someone told me, "LU just did this!" So I remembered they did it, but have never seen it. Feel like that's in the realm of what I'm talking about, but still hasn't been totally figured out to reach its full potential.

I wonder when valuing the Classic Survivor Series match stopped. The RR match has always been held in high regard.

Listened to Bruce & Conrad discuss Wrestlemania IV today. They brought up closed circuit television. For those who don't know this was the predecessor to PPV that also lapped over into the early PPV era. You could watch the big wrestling show at a movie theater or even on a giant screen at selected major arenas. WM 4 allegedly sold between 175,000-220,000 closed circuit tickets + an estimated 650,000 traditional PPV buys. I think the closed circuit atmosphere would have been cool to experience once. This lead me to wonder whether any PWers ever watched a show on closed circuit tv. I vaguely remember somebody here watching a big event in that manner. Shootist maybe? Confirm or deny. Anybody else?

Jun 3, 2022 2:27:22 GMT Baker said:

Listened to Bruce & Conrad discuss Wrestlemania IV today. They brought up closed circuit television. For those who don't know this was the predecessor to PPV that also lapped over into the early PPV era. You could watch the big wrestling show at a movie theater or even on a giant screen at selected major arenas. WM 4 allegedly sold between 175,000-220,000 closed circuit tickets + an estimated 650,000 traditional PPV buys. I think the closed circuit atmosphere would have been cool to experience once. This lead me to wonder whether any PWers ever watched a show on closed circuit tv. I vaguely remember somebody here watching a big event in that manner. Shootist maybe? Confirm or deny. Anybody else?

Nope, I watched Wrestlemania's 29-31 at the theater. Back in those days the majority of PPV's I watched off VHS that was recorded by a friend of mine who had a descrambler.

I really like the KOTR set up in 2000. Probably helped that it was one of the largest if not the largest KOTR tourney held. But qualifiers were even held on Heat, and I liked how the PPV had the Quarter Finals.

Sure it probably led to shorter matches but I liked how running it like that gives a new wrinkle and layer to the show, there’s another long term story running alongside the others that can be used to add new depth to existing stories. Plus sometimes a rapid fire tourney can be fun.

Plus I’ve just spent ages watching old 99/00 Network lol

Jun 3, 2022 2:27:22 GMT Baker said:

Listened to Bruce & Conrad discuss Wrestlemania IV today. They brought up closed circuit television. For those who don't know this was the predecessor to PPV that also lapped over into the early PPV era. You could watch the big wrestling show at a movie theater or even on a giant screen at selected major arenas. WM 4 allegedly sold between 175,000-220,000 closed circuit tickets + an estimated 650,000 traditional PPV buys. I think the closed circuit atmosphere would have been cool to experience once. This lead me to wonder whether any PWers ever watched a show on closed circuit tv. I vaguely remember somebody here watching a big event in that manner. Shootist maybe? Confirm or deny. Anybody else?

My father and I took the train to Madison Square Garden for Wrestlemania X. Standing on the platform, waiting for the train, we saw another father and son, like a mirror image of the two of the us. My dad strikes a conversation with the other father, wanting to see if they were going to Wrestlemania, too. They were. Sort of. Unsure if they were still doing closed circuit everywhere by 1994, but for Wrestlemania the WWF had booked the big MSG room for the live event, and the smaller theater also in the building for a closed circuit broadcast (named the very prestigious sounding Felt Forum or Paramount Theater in those days, it's now embarrassingly named the Hulu Theater). They were headed to the theater. The father had tried to get live tickets, but it sold out fast (people in the WWF fan club got first dibs at tickets and this is how we snagged ours), so he was taking his boy to the closed circuit event instead. We looked for them on the train on the way back home, but it's a big train, we never saw them again. We need them posting on PW for this question. 

Do you think sumos have smarks?

Jun 6, 2022 23:17:36 GMT @ness said:

Do you think sumos have smarks?

I'd put money on it. I've come to believe anything with a fandom has the equivalent of smarks.

The one that really got me was MMA smarks. I, a rube, naturally assumed the UFC champions were the best fighters in their respective weight classes. This is not the case according to MMA smarks. Think it was actually Neo Zeed who turned me on to this. It was some discussion about Brock being a badass or whatever and I was like "Well he was the UFC Heavyweight Champion." Then (I think) Nobi was all "LOL that doesn't mean he was the best fighter. It just meant he'd draw the most money. The REAL best heavyweight in UFC was Blah Blah Blah. Brock was a carefully protected paper champ, brotha."

So I'm sure Sumo smarks poo pooh the current Grand Yokozuna (or whatever they're called) as a carefully manufactured promoter's pet while championing Blah Blah Whoever as the REAL best thing in Sumo. 

Jun 7, 2022 22:12:46 GMT Baker said:

Jun 6, 2022 23:17:36 GMT @ness said:

Do you think sumos have smarks?

I'd put money on it. I've come to believe anything with a fandom has the equivalent of smarks.

The one that really got me was MMA smarks. I, a rube, naturally assumed the UFC champions were the best fighters in their respective weight classes. This is not the case according to MMA smarks. Think it was actually Neo Zeed who turned me on to this. It was some discussion about Brock being a badass or whatever and I was like "Well he was the UFC Heavyweight Champion." Then (I think) Nobi was all "LOL that doesn't mean he was the best fighter. It just meant he'd draw the most money. The REAL best heavyweight in UFC was Blah Blah Blah. Brock was a carefully protected paper champ, brotha."

So I'm sure Sumo smarks poo pooh the current Grand Yokozuna (or whatever they're called) as a carefully manufactured promoter's pet while championing Blah Blah Whoever as the REAL best thing in Sumo. 

Just fascinated by the idea behind sumo indies and how some japanese fans are watching two fat fucks have a shoving match in some parking lot.

Jun 7, 2022 22:15:11 GMT @ness said:

Just fascinated by the idea behind sumo indies and how some japanese fans are watching two fat fucks have a shoving match in some parking lot.

Indie Sumo is where it's at. Ignore the mainstream corporate crap that took all the heart and soul out of the ancient and noble art of sumo. Any Sumo show drawing more than a hundred people ain't for me brother. Parking lot or gtfo.

I want to live in a world where Baker, is the main tape trader of indie sumo.

Two Royal Rumble finishes they need to do one day...

Have a genuine underdog win. I'm talking somebody like Santino, Heath Slater, or Mizdow back when they were popular. Think this would work especially well in the two world titles era.

Have a cocky chickenshit heel enter at #30 after everybody else has already been eliminated to pick up the cheapest of cheap wins. Then they gloat. Flair & Angle would have been ideal choices back in the day. Maybe Austin Theory could work in this role nowadays?

There have been nearly 40 Royal Rumbles. Time to change things up with some clever, creative finishes.

Jun 10, 2022 1:25:38 GMT Baker said:

Have a cocky chickenshit heel enter at #30 after everybody else has already been eliminated to pick up the cheapest of cheap wins. Then they gloat. Flair & Angle would have been ideal choices back in the day. Maybe Austin Theory could work in this role nowadays?

Yes! Imagine the Royal Rumble 1994 finish after 29 men, then 1995 Owen Hart comes strolling out at #30, who then milks the win for the entire year.

Yeah, having the same 2-4 superstars combined with 1-3 dark horses that never go as far as we think has gotten old.

Jun 6, 2022 23:17:36 GMT @ness said:

Do you think sumos have smarks?

I’d love to see some smarks video talking about the workrate etc for a Sumo match for 15 mins as all the Sumo bouts I’ve seen last about 10 seconds max.

So I’m into the late 2000’s and how would things have turned out if Chris Jericho ran over Austin? In hindsight, it was a dud being Rikishi and Jericho has always been better as heel. This would
Have elevated him a lot quicker?

You could even still have HHH mastermind it, and play up their feud in the summer as the behind the scenes reason why they turned on each other etc.