The idea behind this thread is pretty simple. One poster picks a wrestler and the next person chooses whether or not he/she is either overrated or underrated and then explains why they think that is the case. 

The poster responding then chooses the next and repeats said process. There's no reservations here, anyone is welcome to join in and contribute to the conversation and is welcome to prolong the thread by commenting on another user's take. The only rule is that you have two options here and "mehhh, somewhere in-between" isn't an acceptable response.

It also doesn't necessarily have to be a specific wrestler. Feel free to get creative and list anything ranging from a match, PPV event, entrance themes, etc. etc. if you so desire.

Anyways, since I'm kicking this off I might as well go first:

Twinkle Toes McFingerBang Kenny Omega - Overrated//Underrated??? 

 




 

Kenny Omega is a difficult one to start with because he's so divisive, at least on PW. Some people think he's bad, too goofy to be taken seriously both as a promo and in the ring. Then you have people who think he's god's gift to wrestling, basically perfect.

As a whole, I'd say he's overrated. His series of matches with Okada in NJPW has put him on a pedestal that is too high for what he has accomplished as a whole. Omega's run as a heavyweight and Bullet Club leader in NJPW was definitely the best phase of his career, and I would certainly say he was one of, if not the, best wrestler in the world at the time. But the rest of his career - before and after that - is nowhere near the same level of quality. He peaked a few years ago, and he still carries a lot of that reputation among his fanbase even though his work is (in my opinion) not at the same level, so he's overrated.

Triple H

Nov 1, 2021 12:38:58 GMT Emperor said:

Kenny Omega is a difficult one to start with because he's so divisive, at least on PW. Some people think he's bad, too goofy to be taken seriously both as a promo and in the ring. Then you have people who think he's god's gift to wrestling, basically perfect.

As a whole, I'd say he's overrated. His series of matches with Okada in NJPW has put him on a pedestal that is too high for what he has accomplished as a whole. Omega's run as a heavyweight and Bullet Club leader in NJPW was definitely the best phase of his career, and I would certainly say he was one of, if not the, best wrestler in the world at the time. But the rest of his career - before and after that - is nowhere near the same level of quality. He peaked a few years ago, and he still carries a lot of that reputation among his fanbase even though his work is (in my opinion) not at the same level, so he's overrated.

Triple H

Underrated.

Similar to but like the inverse of Omega, IMO.

For whatever reason, his kayfabe storyline with marrying the Boss's daughter duped so many fans (or at least IWC smarks?) into hating him pretty early on.

Then life imitated art, he actually DID marry the Boss's daughter, returned from his first quad injury, and more because of the state of pro wrestling at the time than probably anything else, continued to amass undue hate. Granted, it didn't help he had bulked up so much and had some ring rust... But even still, he proved he could work with the right dance partners and programs.

Then it happened again where kayfabe storylines duped IWC smarks into a shoot hatred for HHH when he was handed the WHC and commenced his Reign of Terror. I think a lot of the bad from this time really is more to do with the state of WWE and pro wrestling than HHH himself. Maybe there were politics involved backstage, but I highly doubt it was HHH or exclusively him. I think the racial overtones to the Booker program and the Katie Vick shit really sealed HHH's fate.

But then he made Batista, and was really a consumate role player in helping to establish fresher faces while also giving older fans something to cling onto. Shit like the DC rehash or his match with Sting didn't really sit well with old Attitude Era fans, but arguably his stuff with Undertaker worked. And when he finally got a chance to come full circle in the Authority gimmick, he really helped Daniel Bryan shine brighter than probably any wrestler since Stone Cold.

From at least 1997 through WMXXX he's had at least one match a year that could be argued as a MOTY contender. Yet fans seem to love to focus on the negatives for... Reasons? He's not the most exciting wrestler or personality, but he is a student of the game, loves the business, and has really given us a lot more as fans then we realize and ever actively credit him for.

Super Crazy

Nobody got nuthin' to say on Super Crazy. I'm hijacking.

MJF

Is there a just right option?

MJF is one of the most universally agreed upon Pro Wrestlers. Everyone recognises he's one of the best modern workers simply because he lives the gimmick and fires off some amazing zingers. I actually think he's really good in the ring as well as far as somebody who isn't just trying to entertain the audience and is actually trying to put together a gameplan for him to win.

I'd say the biggest knock has been his booking. The Moxley feud was a lame satire of the presidential election and was pretty forgettable 'sports entertainment'. The Jericho feud had it's moments and MJF delivered some great segments, but the booking went against it with them recycling the labours gimmick from the Cody feud and the shmozzle that was the Blood and Guts (...aka WarGames...I can't stand Blood and Guts but I get it). That's pretty much everything he's done since beating Cody which should have been a defining moment.

SPEAKING OF...

My pick...

Cody Rhodes.

Nov 1, 2021 15:36:05 GMT 🤯 said:

Super Crazy

Definitely underrated in general. ECW fans who got to watch his series with Tajiri recognise how valuable he was and how those two really delivered in an undercard and really made a strong case that rematches can actually be fantastic when presented in the right manner. Also stands out amongst the other luchadores for taking those crazy dives.

Didn't he do one at ONS and get hired off the back of it? I know it led to the Mexicools which was as mid-card as you could get, but that's a fairly impressive feat.

True Story - I used to do a monthly 'column' (aka thread) where I just spouted my random thoughts on the WWE. I barely remember any of my takes other than being dismayed with Super Crazy's booking when he was drafted to RAW - I want to say sometime in 2007?

I have no idea why I wrote those posts considering I barely watched any WWE at that point. Maybe I was holding out for a Super Crazy push?

Big Pete did a good job of sidestepping the question of whether MJF is underrated or overrated.

I demand an answer!

I was going with Ness' 'just right'.

I'd say underrated because he's seen as a novelty act when he's actually somebody of substance.

Also underrated in the sense that AEW should put more stock into him. He feels like he's just blowing in the wind when he should have a clear focus. The whole point of Pinnacle was coming to the realisation that in order to win the AEW Championship, he needed a stable. He's got that now, so he should be in the process of going for the AEW Championship. Since Kenny is preoccupied with Hangman, I would have gone all out with The Pinnacle vs. Death Triangle and I'd make Andrade an uneasy ally of The Death Triangle.

I feel like the story with Andrade has been really sloppy. I would have introduced him by having him scout Fenix and Pentagon Jr. I'd then organise some interview on Unrestricted where they ask him about it and Andrade intimates that PAC's travel schedule is holding them back which creates this divide.

PAC can see the back-stabbing coming a mile away, so he turns to Malakai Black and they form a partnership. I'd throw Daniel Garcia in there with them and you can do all these different combination of matches.

Sorry side-tangent! But throw all those guys in an underrated...except maybe Pentagon Jr and his goofy 'job for the boys' manager.

Really though as someone who only casually follows the newz of aew, he's one I'm shocked they never pulled the trigger with. I don't get the edgy gimmick of fuck you grandma put the few promos I've heard have hit the mark. Like if Hardcore Holly has the textbook dropkick then mjf is likely textbook voice for a heel. Like he literally sounds like what every one of us thinks we sound like when doing a promo.

Nov 2, 2021 14:03:36 GMT Big Pete said:

MJF is one of the most universally agreed upon Pro Wrestlers. Everyone recognises he's one of the best modern workers simply because he lives the gimmick and fires off some amazing zingers. I actually think he's really good in the ring as well as far as somebody who isn't just trying to entertain the audience and is actually trying to put together a gameplan for him to win.

I'd say the biggest knock has been his booking. The Moxley feud was a lame satire of the presidential election and was pretty forgettable 'sports entertainment'. The Jericho feud had it's moments and MJF delivered some great segments, but the booking went against it with them recycling the labours gimmick from the Cody feud and the shmozzle that was the Blood and Guts (...aka WarGames...I can't stand Blood and Guts but I get it). That's pretty much everything he's done since beating Cody which should have been a defining moment.

SPEAKING OF...

My pick...

Cody Rhodes.

To me, I think NATH45 nailed why to me Cody is either just right because of how the overrate/underrate sides balance out or is ultimately on the overrated end of the spectrum:

Sept 26, 2021 2:23:49 GMT NATH45 said:

To put a different spin on the narrative.

With Kenny, there's an argument to be made, that he's the best in the world (I may not agree, but nonetheless, there is) and was a megastar for NJPW. He was the hottest thing in the business. The Bucks, arguably the best Tag Team in the world (I may not agree..) and obviously big stars in NJPW and ROH. Adam Cole and later, Marty Scrull were seen as top prospects.

The embodiments of that rebellious, outsider mentally in NJPW that became synonymous with Bullet Club. That, and all being under 6'0" and barely 200lbs, they were the antithesis to WWE. Cody is the opposite. He looks like a WWE guy, to this day and always presented himself as a WWE guy. To this day.

Cody was never a big star in WWE, he was never a star amongst The Elite and when he held the ROH title, ROH was largely an afterthought with NJPW's popularity risen and NXT in its prime. He was never an ace or a drawcard. He needed a rub from KO before Bullet Club adoped him. And was more or less able to walk from WWE because he had family money.

While I don't discount his ambition, he bought his spot on the card with being an AEW Founder. He was previously awarded a spot in WWE because of his Father.

While I think he would have found some success in wrestling, he wouldn't have had this degree of success without being very fortunate in more ways than one.

So if you subconsciously dislike Cody, after witnessing his pompous promos and grand standing, virtue signalling and continual name dropping, this might be why.

Brian Pillman

Pillman is the epitome of somebody who only got his due in death. Yeah, he was a Meltzer darling but it was deserved and he never got the run he should have.

Here's one that could go either way:

Matt Hardy

Nov 4, 2021 4:22:54 GMT Big Pete said:

Pillman is the epitome of somebody who only got his due in death. Yeah, he was a Meltzer darling but it was deserved and he never got the run he should have.

Here's one that could go either way:

Matt Hardy

How fitting.

Matt's a tricky one. He's in that ballpark with Christian of being considered "so underrated that he's almost overrated" but I'd still go with the u and not the o for various reasons.

Whether fairly on unfairly, he's always going to be compared to Jeff but I think he's finally loosened that connection over the years through a lot of hard work and the willingness and desire to reinvent himself.

Matt's not an amazing wrestler, but he's always been solid. And what he does best is what Jeff has never been able to do well at all: cut a promo. In fact, Matt's skills on the mic is enough on its own to earn him "underrated" in my book.

This segues nicely into what was already going to be my next choice:

Jeff Hardy

Jeff Hardy is overrated.

In my opinion he's a decent midcard level wrestler. Solid babyface, good at selling and emoting. Despite all the colours and bells and whistles in his attire and facepaint, he's one of the most unimposing wrestlers I've seen and I find almost all of his offense weak and sloppy. I could never buy into him hurting pretty much anyone, never mind the larger opponents he was facing at the height of his singles run.

Yet he's revered by many fans and has been World Champion in multiple companies. It's something that baffles me to be honest. That said, I can't deny he has (or had) some kind of special connection with the fans, some intangible, tha helped get him to that main event level. I guess the appeal is that he's, to put it crudely, a weirdo. Strangely, Darby Allin is basically a modern day Jeff Hardy and I'm all-in on him, but still don't get Jeff Hardy. Subjectivity is an odd thing. At least Allin has great offense in his favour. He can cut a decent promo too.

Jeff Hardy was in the right place in the Hardy Boyz, an exciting tag team act in the Attitude Era midcard. He's in the right place now, as a midcard guy in WWE largely putting over other talent. Anything else he was pushed beyond his talent and ability, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

Zack Sabre Jr.

Clearly underrated if this thread is anything to go by. :lol:

ZSJ is underrated in the sense that his name rarely comes up as one of the BITW but I feel he's perfectly booked. He just does his thing in NJPW, taking the British style and actually putting together some great looking holds that look painful. He doesn't have to worry so much about his physique or cutting promos, he just gets to be the #2 to Suzuki and have some great mid-card matches.

I can't wait until Bryan faces him in Tokyo.

Maybe we should try and focus more on history guys...

The Undertaker.

Zack Sabre Jr. is especially underrated as a promo, mostly because you'd never hear the guy unless you subscribe to NJPW World. But once you see his promos you realise he's awesome. Just like his wrestling, he takes his British style of speaking and adapts it perfectly.

Nov 5, 2021 10:23:52 GMT Big Pete said:

I can't wait until Bryan faces him in Tokyo LONDON.

Nov 5, 2021 10:23:52 GMT Big Pete said:

Clearly underrated if this thread is anything to go by. :lol:

ZSJ is underrated in the sense that his name rarely comes up as one of the BITW but I feel he's perfectly booked. He just does his thing in NJPW, taking the British style and actually putting together some great looking holds that look painful. He doesn't have to worry so much about his physique or cutting promos, he just gets to be the #2 to Suzuki and have some great mid-card matches.

I can't wait until Bryan faces him in Tokyo.

Maybe we should try and focus more on history guys...

The Undertaker.

*that's bait*

Overrated... to an extent.

The mystique of the character and its longevity certainly blinds some people. It's an undead zombie sorcerer who decided to then cosplay occultist then got bored, had a mid-life crisis and bought himself a Harley but then came full circle.

Don't get me wrong, Taker's a good worker and the character works somehow. But some people act as if he never had bad matches (from his end) or that the ones considered good/great aren't sometimes overrated just because it's Taker, especially at Mania.

His match against HHH (I think it was 28? The one with HBK as a ref) is a prime example of that. The match was mediocre at best but marks raved about it like it was a 5 star classic.

Dusty Rhodes

Putting a tag on 'Taker, no supposedly great wrestler has more bad matches than Undertaker. And whoever is in second place, it's not even close. It's like how Gretzky has more assists than any other player has total points. Except bad, in this case. Undertaker is the Gretzky of having terrible matches.

And if you find even the "good" character work of Undertaker to be Wrestlecrap (as I do), he's quite possibly the most overrated wrestler ever.

Except you're both wrong and The Undertaker is one of the greatest to ever do it.

I don't see The Undertaker being over-rated. The gimmick was over on day 1. So much so that it allowed him to improve as a wrestler. Taking the gimmick to new levels. He's exactly what the WWF is all about.

The Undertaker gimmick is not overrated.

The Undertaker, the wrestler? Absolutely. The reasons have already been given. Going back 10-15 years, Undertaker was the undisputed greatest big man worker ever, and considered one of the greatest workers in general. I used to agree with that, but my opinion has changed a lot, as it has with others. He's a great wrestler with some GOAT matches to his name, but he has also had a lot of stinkers over the years, and the bad probably outweighs the good. He's not absolutely top tier, maybe the level below.

Nov 5, 2021 21:08:44 GMT rad said:

His match against HHH (I think it was 28? The one with HBK as a ref) is a prime example of that. The match was mediocre at best but marks raved about it like it was a 5 star classic.

I can tolerate yinz hating on Taker, disrespecting him n'at potentially only because of whatever recently came to light about his personal life...

But I cannot tolerate this objectively wrong stance. I used to HAAATE on the modern era. Even my old attitude era gunslinger ring generals. And like @ness, I was BIG fan of HunterTaker @ WrestleMan X-Seve. So I wanted to see an epic rematch a Decade of Destruction later.
But their match at WM27 suuucked. So bland, boring, blah. And that fucking haircut!?!? So much so, that I tuned completely out. Not even the attitude era gunslingers could do it anymore. Bear in mind this is before the return of Brock or even really Rock. So I want out. Done. But then they rematch the next year, and it gets all this dick suck cock fuck praise?!?! Yeah, right. You gotta be fucking kidding me. No way. No way. So I ignore it. Refuse to ever watch it. Resist. Refuse. Relentlessly. But then I watched Brock/Taker HIAC2 when earnestly trying #BROCKTOBER on the first place. And it was sooo good it rivaled Brock/Taker HIAC1. So I had to know... Was HunterTaker HIAC as good? I was tempted. I said fuck it. Why not? @whocares. Turns out. HunterTaker HIAC was actually pretty fucking good. Probably Taker's legit third best HIAC match depending on how you feel about Foley's prat falls. Which reminds me, we should countdown Taker's HIAC matches like we did Rock's best matches the other day. But later. In a moment. First, my point. A) I was never one of those marks. I hated those marks. And yet hear I was, years later with a more open mind, realizing they were right. And b) I just realized literally all of Taker's work with Brock is either proof Taker isn't all bad, OR it proves Brock can make ANYBODY look good (just like Benoit).

Except Dean Ambrose lol.

Nov 6, 2021 0:57:28 GMT @ness said:

Except Dean Ambrose lol.

Nah, even that upon more open minded rewatch turned out to not be nearly as shitty as I recalled in real time.

WMXXX was bad for both Brock AND Taker, but that's only because of the concussion
(And that fucking haircut!?)

But at least the finish saved it.

Nov 6, 2021 0:59:33 GMT 🤯 said:

Nov 6, 2021 0:57:28 GMT @ness said:

Except Dean Ambrose lol.

Nah, even that upon more open minded rewatch turned out to not be nearly as shitty as I recalled in real time.

WMXXX was bad for both Brock AND Taker, but that's only because of the concussion
(And that fucking haircut!?)

But at least the finish saved it.

Someone finally said it.

Nov 6, 2021 1:00:46 GMT @ness said:

Nov 6, 2021 0:59:33 GMT 🤯 said:

Nah, even that upon more open minded rewatch turned out to not be nearly as shitty as I recalled in real time.

WMXXX was bad for both Brock AND Taker, but that's only because of the concussion
(And that fucking haircut!?)

But at least the finish saved it.

Someone finally said it.

Pretty sure I've even said it twice

-_-

Undertakers so fucking good he made this thread....


REST

IN

PEACE!

Jon Moxley

I have my takes but I'm going to defer to the group for now. And go.