Since Dusty got forgotten about amidst all of my supposed Undertaker heresy, I'll go ahead and do it: Overrated. Really good on the mic but not great. Kind of like Hogan in that the natural charisma mattered way more than the actual substance or content of his promos. Dusty's charisma was great enough that it made people overlook his weaknesses. Feel free to elaborate further if anyone is interested.

Nov 9, 2021 6:04:23 GMT RT said:

Jon Moxley

I have my takes but I'm going to defer to the group for now. And go.

Underrated. I think he gets way too much shit for being a "deathmatch guy" when Mox has proven he can work almost any style there is and shouldn't be saddled with that label. Is he on the level of Danielson/Omega/Okada? No, but he's very versatile and one of the best promos of this generation. He almost never has a bad match to boot and looks like a legit street fighter.

If we were talking about his "Dean Ambrose" persona, I'd probably have a completely different take on this. But Jon fucking Moxley is a different beast to me.

I'll let someone else here (doesn't matter who) drop the next name.

Nov 9, 2021 8:47:23 GMT rad said:

Since Dusty got forgotten about amidst all of my supposed Undertaker heresy, I'll go ahead and do it: Overrated. Really good on the mic but not great. Kind of like Hogan in that the natural charisma mattered way more than the actual substance or content of his promos. Dusty's charisma was great enough that it made people overlook his weaknesses. Feel free to elaborate further if anyone is interested.

Nov 9, 2021 6:04:23 GMT RT said:

Jon Moxley

I have my takes but I'm going to defer to the group for now. And go.

Underrated. I think he gets way too much shit for being a "deathmatch guy" when Mox has proven he can work almost any style there is and shouldn't be saddled with that label. Is he on the level of Danielson/Omega/Okada? No, but he's very versatile and one of the best promos of this generation. He almost never has a bad match to boot and looks like a legit street fighter.

If we were talking about his "Dean Ambrose" persona, I'd probably have a completely different take on this. But Jon fucking Moxley is a different beast to me.

I'll let someone else here (doesn't matter who) drop the next name.

Agreed on all counts for Dusty and Mox. Nothing to add. I think with Mox topping the PWI list last year you could maybe argue he’s right where he should be, but he definitely gets too much shit from people who expect a 5 star match out of him every time.

Austin at his peak was dogshit in the ring. Well that’s harsh, but he wasn’t good. He was reliable, he was over, he did good things, but from a technical standpoint he was terrible. But nobody cared because he was Austin. That’s Moxley to me.

I won’t drop a name since I did the last one.

Vader

Nov 10, 2021 2:21:39 GMT @ness said:

Vader

Underrated.

One of the best big men of all-time and his name never gets brought up in that discussion outside of us internet goofs.

First gaijin to hold the IWGP Heavyweight title and nobody ever seems to talk about that. Huge feat.

He should be remembered as one of the most innovative "big men" ever.

RT ruined this thread by forgetting to pick a new wrestler.

Mick Foley

Nov 20, 2021 23:22:22 GMT Emperor said:

Mick Foley

Underrated: While Foley definitely has Attitude Era nostalgia support meaning millions of people that think he was awesome "back when wrestling was good," most of those people missed Foley's best stuff (in-ring and promo) which predated WWF, so even they don't know how truly fucking awesome Mick Foley is.

Then there's a type of fan that would demean Foley as "a stunt wrestler" or whatever they say, who are just wrong, and most likely assholes.

Both groups underrate Foley's psychology, which was great, and why he's so much better than wrestlers who maybe it's fair to actually call "stunt wrestlers."

Mr. Perfect Curt Hennig

Nov 20, 2021 23:50:44 GMT Kilgore said:

Nov 20, 2021 23:22:22 GMT Emperor said:

Mick Foley

Underrated: While Foley definitely has Attitude Era nostalgia support meaning millions of people that think he was awesome "back when wrestling was good," most of those people missed Foley's best stuff (in-ring and promo) which predated WWF, so even they don't know how truly fucking awesome Mick Foley is.

Then there's a type of fan that would demean Foley as "a stunt wrestler" or whatever they say, who are just wrong, and most likely assholes.

Both groups underrate Foley's psychology, which was great, and why he's so much better than wrestlers who maybe it's fair to actually call "stunt wrestlers."

Mr. Perfect Curt Hennig

Overrated. For being supposedly so good and always retconned in revisionist history as a shoulda-been WWF Champion... His resume feels pretty thin. Although I do wonder how much that has to do with the back injuries?

As far as I know, Perfect had no matches or even really moments in his WCW or second WWF/E run. Then his false start cockteases from 1994-1996 probably didn't help. I know he supposedly had some good bouts in AWA with Bockwinkel, but they all seem kinda samey and without the Mr. Perfect gimmick it feels weird in hindsight anyway.

So, for supposedly being perfect, Perfect's Best Matches are Bret at SummerSlam, Bret at King of the Ring, Loser Leaves WWF against Flair, his too-competitive squash over Owen at WrestleMania, his underrated IC title defense against similar seller Bossman at WrestleMania, his KOTR qualifier stuff against Doink, and maybe some futile SNME title challenges against Hogan and/or Warrior (likely outshined by Genius)... Just doesn't seem like enough for the love Perfect gets.

Let's do...

Jake Roberts

Nov 21, 2021 13:30:00 GMT 🤯 said:

Let's do...

Jake Roberts

Properly rated. I love watching Jake cut promos. Most people before him were screamers. Jake was deliberate and calm. Mentally breaks his opponents before they step into the ring.




Mr. Perfect

Mr. Perfect was recently covered by 🤯. Let's go with...

Barry Windham

Damn you baker.

I had a great post calling ed overrated for repeating and redid the perfect one and then did my pick. Now I look like a GEEK.

I'll say Barry is a tad bit over-rated. He had so much skill but I believe his dad BlackJack Mulligan had a negative influence on his son's career. Barry had some good runs but, I feel like he left a lot on the table.


Magnum T.A.

Overrated, if Magnum's career had continued I just don't see him reaching the heights that the NWA had envisioned for him. Sure I think he would have been champion but I just can't picture him carrying on the NWA banner from Ric Flair, especially as the 80's turned into the 90's. He really was a product of his time, right down to the name and he was hugely popular but I just don't see a lasting appeal. I still think the NWA would have got Sting and Luger and would have pushed them past Magnum sooner or later. In the end he was still a great worker and had good fiery charisma in his promos but this huge national star he was not cut out to be imo.

Koko B. Ware

I have no comments on Koko B. Ware but I want to comment on Jake Roberts.

Jake Roberts is overrated. First of all, nobody talks about his ring work, the only good thing people have to say about Jake Roberts is that he's a great promo. I've not really seen enough of Jake to give a full evaluation of his ring work, but my impression is that he's pretty mediocre. If he really did invent the DDT, that's a big point in his favour, but does he have any great matches to his name? Certainly not any I've heard about.

Getting back to his promo. I've seen a fair few old school Jake Roberts promos. Sure, he's menacing and well-spoken, and different from everyone else. But I never watched a Jake Roberts promo that made me want to watch a match, or made me want to see more of him, or made me want to see him get his ass kicked. He's kind of creepy and unsettling, but he's not a GOAT promo like people make him out to be.

Back to your regularly scheduled Koko B. Ware.

Nov 25, 2021 19:39:23 GMT Emperor said:

I have no comments on Koko B. Ware but I want to comment on Jake Roberts.

Jake Roberts is overrated. First of all, nobody talks about his ring work, the only good thing people have to say about Jake Roberts is that he's a great promo. I've not really seen enough of Jake to give a full evaluation of his ring work, but my impression is that he's pretty mediocre. If he really did invent the DDT, that's a big point in his favour, but does he have any great matches to his name? Certainly not any I've heard about.

Getting back to his promo. I've seen a fair few old school Jake Roberts promos. Sure, he's menacing and well-spoken, and different from everyone else. But I never watched a Jake Roberts promo that made me want to watch a match, or made me want to see more of him, or made me want to see him get his ass kicked. He's kind of creepy and unsettling, but he's not a GOAT promo like people make him out to be.

Back to your regularly scheduled Koko B. Ware.

Excellent take on Jake. I totally agree.

Koko is underrated. I think because of his WWE HOF induction and the ignorant fan backlash to it. He had a fun, over gimmick and was better in the ring than we remember. Threw a good dropkick and had perhaps the GOAT brain buster. Sure, he was a midcard act at best... but just like there's no small parts on stage or screen, wrestling too needs talented folks to round out all the roles on a roster.

Let's try...

Shinsuke Nakamura

Nov 25, 2021 23:06:43 GMT 🤯 said:

Nov 25, 2021 19:39:23 GMT Emperor said:

I have no comments on Koko B. Ware but I want to comment on Jake Roberts.

Jake Roberts is overrated. First of all, nobody talks about his ring work, the only good thing people have to say about Jake Roberts is that he's a great promo. I've not really seen enough of Jake to give a full evaluation of his ring work, but my impression is that he's pretty mediocre. If he really did invent the DDT, that's a big point in his favour, but does he have any great matches to his name? Certainly not any I've heard about.

Getting back to his promo. I've seen a fair few old school Jake Roberts promos. Sure, he's menacing and well-spoken, and different from everyone else. But I never watched a Jake Roberts promo that made me want to watch a match, or made me want to see more of him, or made me want to see him get his ass kicked. He's kind of creepy and unsettling, but he's not a GOAT promo like people make him out to be.

Back to your regularly scheduled Koko B. Ware.

Excellent take on Jake . I totally agree.

Koko is underrated. I think because of his WWE HOF induction and the ignorant fan backlash to it. He had a fun, over gimmick and was better in the ring than we remember. Threw a good dropkick and had perhaps the GOAT brain buster. Sure, he was a midcard act at best... but just like there's no small parts on stage or screen, wrestling too needs talented folks to round out all the roles on a roster.

Let's try...

Shinsuke Nakamura

Underrated. But probably because of his own doing.

Nakamura should be highly regarded like other NJPW names from the past 15 years. His name should be right up there with Okada, Tanahashi, Naito, Omega, et al. But from where I'm sitting, he isn't, and it's probably because of his WWE run.

There's sort of an accepted thing out there that Nakamura is using the WWE as his semi-retirement, phoning in most of his matches and surfing as much as possible. I don't know if this is true, I don't know where it started, but that's the perception people have of him.

His debut in NXT was probably the best thing he did on North American soil until he won the Royal Rumble. His NXT run was ok, he had some good matches, won the title, but really if you're making a Mount Rushmore or memorable NXT careers, he's barely in the top 10. Maybe not even that. Then he got to the main roster, did some good stuff with AJ Styles, won a few titles, but it was all very forgettable minus his cool entrances (that they decided to change because we can't have the Japanese tweener having a cool entrance!)

I dunno...maybe he's right where he should be, but his talent and charisma never really translated well to WWE once his NXT run was over. He was larger than life and beloved in NJPW, and when he left there was nobody like him to replace him, and it was felt. Many fans expected the same when he came to America, he started off great with his NXT debut against Sami Zayn, but then....*fart noise*

So I say he's underrated, but I say that he did it to himself and never should have left NJPW. He'd be a living legend over there if he stayed. But surfing and millions of dollars probably swayed his decision.

...

I'm throwing out a tag team now: The Dudley Boyz

Nakamura seemed a little overrated to me. He never really seemed to live up to hype of a top NJPW star in the WWE. While I find him some what enjoyable nothing really stands out to make me think he should be more than he is.

on to The Dudley Boys

Shinsuke is a great nominee for this thread.

I missed a lot of his earlier work but based on what I know I'd lean towards overrated. Nakamura was given a chosen one push in NJPW and became the youngest IWGP Champion in NJPW history. He flopped hard largely because he was caught in the middle of the Inoki era where he was booking his guys in shoot fights and having them get completely jobbed out. There is that infamous footage of Nakamura getting his eye socket fractured ending the fight and Inoki coming in to punch him in the face, that was Nak's legacy for awhile.

He was sort of seen as a failed experiment, the Randy Orton to Tanahashi's Cena. Then he went to Mexico, dropped the serious MMA guy act and just became that carefree guy who vibes around the ring sometime in the early 2010s. He was a big match performer even then with a lot of his regular stuff being so-so but then against guys like Sakuraba, Ibushi, Tanahashi etc. he'd bring it.

When he signed with the WWE, I think it exposed how little fans actually followed NJPW because the Sami Zayn match was far from the norm from Shinsuke. Of course when you put him in the ring with an older Samoa Joe or 'Perfectly Cromulent' Bobby Roode you're never going to be blown away. I think he tried in those matches but they really didn't compliment one another at all.

I also think it exposed how different the NJPW style is to western style wrestling. I'd be curious to go back and watch the MSG show because the feeling that I get is that the NJPW performers really struggle with US crowds and have never really had that mind-blowing Tokyo Dome style match in the States. Like Okada/Scurll from All In was a real struggle for that crowd and while they wanted to be appreciative, it just didn't strike the right chords.

I think with AJ there was just far too much executive meddling. The Wrestlemania match got cut for time and they were setting up for a rivalry. The best thing the writers could come up with was Nakamura kicking AJ in the nads and the only time they were allowed to go all-out was a LMS match which would have been a struggle for Nak. Since then he's just been the mid-card guy pumping out the occasional good match while giving guys like Boogs the limelight.

I like Shinsuke, but I think before he was exposed the fans had a perception of him that wasn't accurate. Then again, I don't think a lot of Japanese performers could get over in the WWE. I'll be very keen to see how AEW goes because so far I'd say it's really not worked out there either.

Shinsuke Nakamura is overrated. Very overrated. RT talks about Nakamura phoning it in in WWE, in my opinion he was phoning it in years before that. I've told the story of how Nakamura vs Ibushi at Wrestle Kingdom 9 was my gateway to NJPW. Not only the match, but Nakamura's entrance. His music and bizarre mannerisms captivated me, and the match delivered, an all-time classic.

However in general Nakamura very rarely delivered that caliber of match. I can count on one hand the number of truly great Nakamura matches I've seen. It's not like he has a solid baseline either, the average Nakamura is a bore, he just spams knee strikes ad nauseam. Once you've seen his wacky signature moves a few times they lose all of their appeal.

WWE Nakamura is a shell of his NJPW self, which as I've said I don't find to be all that great to begin with. I'm not sure I can name a single great Nakamura match in WWE. No, not even the Sami Zayn match. It's very good, but great? Nah.

I am a little mystified Nakamura's legendary status in NJPW. He was an absolute top guy for most of his career, but the quality of his ring work did not justify that at all. However he did have this innate charisma and was super over with the fans, sort of how Naito is now, so he definitely had that going for him. Still overrated.

As far as the Dudley Boyz are concerned.

I actually feel they're kind of underrated. For years I worked under the presumption that the Dudley Boyz gimmick was well and truly stale by 2001 and they just rehashed the tag team for another 15 years before finally calling it a day. However they were still putting together entertaining matches and while a lot of acts really phoned it in when they got to TNA a lot of Team 3D stuff holds up. Even that dreaded Nasty Boyz feud was perfectly fine.

And they deservedly got over in the WWE. Watching their rise where they had Buh Buh rehash his stuttering gimmick and transitioning that into them wearing camos and asserting themselves as some of the biggest heels in the industry was no mean feat in that shark tank.

I think they were a versatile team that could base for the high fliers and brawl with the horses. They could do comedy, they could do ultra violent and they had 20 years. in the industry together.

Speaking of WWE converts...

Finn Balor.

I struggle to think of a more overrated wrestler than Finn Balor.

I'll start with the positive. That short run where he returned to NXT and became champion was magical. I rate the match with Kyle O'Reilly five stars, and he had some other great matches against the likes of Pete Dunne and even Adam Cole (another "most overrated wrestler" in my book). From nowhere Balor became a master of strong style, putting on better NJPW style matches than NJPW was doing, much better than Balor had wrestled even when he was in NJPW.

That's Balor's one redeeming quality. If that part of his career had never happened, I would comfortably say Finn Balor is one of my least favourite wrestlers of all time. But now he has an Emperor-approved five star match to his name, so I can't quite go that far, but he's still pretty low down on the list. Six months of awesome does not compensate for over a decade of absolute boredom.

He's an incredible athlete with an incredible physique, yet his matches are the most generic, bland contests I've ever seen. It's like he took the 2000s Indy style, cherry picked the most generic moves from that area, stripped out all manner of personality and individuality from their execution, and wrestled like a robot. Robot. Yes, that's how to summarise my issue with Finn Balor. He's a wrestling robot. He was like that in NJPW as a Junior and then briefly as a Heavyweight. He was like that in his initial NXT run, and his main roster run. He's the world's most boring high profile wrestler. I feel nothing when I watch his matches. As much as I hate EVIL, I'd rather watch his matches, because at least I always root for his opponents. There's something to cheer for. Balor, I feel nothing. I don't care if he wins or loses. I feel nothing for him.

His promo ability is below average. 4/10 if I'm being kind. He has no personality. The Demon is all style no substance. He looks cool, but he doesn't act cool or wrestle cool. Slapping a load of body paint on the world's most boring wrestler does not make them interesting.

All of this, yet many people think Prince Devitt/Finn Balor is amazing. Has been amazing all his career, so they say. I am even more baffled by this than by Nakamura's legendary reputation.

In his decade plus career, Finn Balor has done exactly three positive things.

1. Founded Bullet Club.
2. Wrestled one of my favourite Brock Lesnar matches.
3. Had an amazing run in NXT in late 2020/early 2021.

Everything else is awful. Finn Balor stinks.

Since I name dropped him, Adam Cole is next.

Nov 25, 2021 23:06:43 GMT 🤯 said:

Nov 25, 2021 19:39:23 GMT Emperor said:

I have no comments on Koko B. Ware but I want to comment on Jake Roberts.

Jake Roberts is overrated. First of all, nobody talks about his ring work, the only good thing people have to say about Jake Roberts is that he's a great promo. I've not really seen enough of Jake to give a full evaluation of his ring work, but my impression is that he's pretty mediocre. If he really did invent the DDT, that's a big point in his favour, but does he have any great matches to his name? Certainly not any I've heard about.

Getting back to his promo. I've seen a fair few old school Jake Roberts promos. Sure, he's menacing and well-spoken, and different from everyone else. But I never watched a Jake Roberts promo that made me want to watch a match, or made me want to see more of him, or made me want to see him get his ass kicked. He's kind of creepy and unsettling, but he's not a GOAT promo like people make him out to be.

Back to your regularly scheduled Koko B. Ware.

Excellent take on Jake . I totally agree.

Koko is underrated. I think because of his WWE HOF induction and the ignorant fan backlash to it. He had a fun, over gimmick and was better in the ring than we remember. Threw a good dropkick and had perhaps the GOAT brain buster. Sure, he was a midcard act at best... but just like there's no small parts on stage or screen, wrestling too needs talented folks to round out all the roles on a roster.

Let's try...

Shinsuke Nakamura

I was wondering why I was tagged in this, but hmm...... I can guess why. 


Overrated I'd say current for Nakamura, guy came from NJPW with some prestige, and yes it carried over to NXT, but since his main roster call-up, he's been somewhat....mishandled. 

P.S his pairing with Boogz is crap, have Nakz take out Boogz, and Nakz will be fine.

Just on Finn Balor, I would have endorsed Emperor's comments a couple of years ago but I've grown an appreciation for Finn. He's not the greatest of all-time or stand-out, but he's still a really good performer who can work with anyone and make his stuff look good. Like his shotgun dropkick always looks impactful and I don't think I've ever rolled my eyes at any of his offence. I nearly forgot all about his NXT matches as well, which isn't a slight on him because those matches were legitimately great and some of the best matches this year. Unfortunately with the way NXT has been managed and that hokey Extreme Rules match I kind of forgot about it.

I'd be keen to go back and watch some of his 2015 matches because I think they'd hold up better now that I'm less critical. Before I'd go in with the perspective of how it would compare to a Jushin Thunder Liger or Low Ki match since he clearly drew a ton of inspiration from them. Nowadays I just try and compare everything to what's going on in the current year and I could see those matches holding up better against WWE, TNA and ROH matches of that year. Maybe not quite NJPW back when they still had AJ, Nakamura, Shibata etc. but up there.

🤯 Balor yay or nay as a IYH Title Defense. I feel that term is a decent measuring stick for middle of the road guys like Balor who aren't real stars, but aren't exactly scrubs either.

Devitt seems like a lifetime ago. And I think his role as a constant junior gaijin probably hyped him up too much (cuz Japan bro) that his WWE stint has exposed that he might have just been in the right place at the right time.

Like seriously take away Capt. Fookin' New Japan and does anyone really care about Bullet Club until the real guys came on board?

Nov 27, 2021 15:29:13 GMT @ness said:

🤯 Balor yay or nay as a IYH Title Defense. I feel that term is a decent measuring stick for middle of the road guys like Balor who aren't real stars, but aren't exactly scrubs either.

Devitt seems like a lifetime ago. And I think his role as a constant junior gaijin probably hyped him up too much (cuz Japan bro) that his WWE stint has exposed that he might have just been in the right place at the right time.

Like seriously take away Capt. Fookin' New Japan and does anyone really care about Bullet Club until the real guys came on board?

IC title, sure.

Ain't nothing wrong with having a Christian Career.

Nov 27, 2021 16:14:39 GMT @ness said:

Ain't nothing wrong with having a Christian Career.

My favorite IYH match ever is an IC title match so nothing wrong with that at all!

Nov 27, 2021 16:18:00 GMT 🤯 said:

Nov 27, 2021 16:14:39 GMT @ness said:

Ain't nothing wrong with having a Christian Career.

My favorite IYH match ever is an IC title match so nothing wrong with that at all!

Is it the one?

Or in your case... it lines up with number 2. As in the second IYH?

Nov 27, 2021 16:21:42 GMT @ness said:

Nov 27, 2021 16:18:00 GMT 🤯 said:

My favorite IYH match ever is an IC title match so nothing wrong with that at all!

Is it the one?

Or in your case... it lines up with number 2. As in the second IYH?

#2 is my #1.

💩

Cole is such a weird case study for me because I genuinely have a favourable impression of him but I've never really watched him that closely.

If you sat me down and had me try to call a typical Cole match the best I could give you is...

The 'Bay Bay' taunt
The Slow Motion Panama Sunrise
That camel clutch spot kiss spot which gets one of the biggest babyface reactions in the industry

Actually something just came to me...

A sloppy urigoroshi which looks ridiculous because he's not a strong guy.

I'm curious to see what he does now but I get the sinking feeling he's going to paired with Kyle O'Reilly again in the not too distant future.

It's weird because despite having issue with those elements I still have a high opinion of Cole and I can't quite explain why.

The Man Called 'Sting'