Nov 28, 2021 13:11:41 GMT Big Pete said:

Cole is such a weird case study for me because I genuinely have a favourable impression of him but I've never really watched him that closely.

If you sat me down and had me try to call a typical Cole match the best I could give you is...

The 'Bay Bay' taunt
The Slow Motion Panama Sunrise
That camel clutch spot which gets one of the biggest babyface reactions in the industry

Actually something just came to me...

A sloppy urigoroshi which looks ridiculous because he's not a strong guy.

I'm curious to see what he does now but I get the sinking feeling he's going to paired with Kyle O'Reilly again in the not too distant future.

It's weird because despite having issue with those elements I still have a high opinion of Cole and I can't quite explain why.

The Man Called 'Sting'

I think underrated.

In his heyday in the late 80s and through the 90s, he more than anyone else from the late 80s really seemed to have the most complete toolset to take the torch from a Hulk Hogan and get the flame somehow burning even brighter. Like a combo of the Ultimate Warrior and Bret Hart. He could cut intelligible promos, but also had that energetic intensity, was built and painted just right, excellent branding, beyond capable in the ring. Seemed to have no real life ego issues or personal demons that would've prevented long term repeated reigns. I think had WWF gotten him instead of Warrior, business from 1992 through 1997 looks considerably different.

Even in WCW he was great at what he was. The transformation is possibly the greatest in wrestling even if folks didn't like how Starrcade '97 went down. The crow rebrand made him feel cool and contemporary as so few acts in pro wrestling manage to do. He was right up there with nWo and Goldberg and Austin and Sable in the zeitgeist IMO. Even acts like DDP, Undertaker, and Hogan felt dated by comparison even if they were red hot over too around the same time.

I think never coming to the WWF or then WWE (until he did) is what somehow hurt Sting. But he had a crazy impressive run in TNA with continued character growth and slight rebrands, which is nuts. You'd think he'd be in more cruise control by then. I admittedly didn't follow his TNA career at all, but his mere presence seemed to be the first thing to really legitimize the promotion from what I can recall.

By holding out on WWE, he became arguably the biggest dream match guy left out there. Then eventually he did come in. Even if it was 15-20 years too late, I recall his debut being handled well supposedly. Coming in to help battle the Authority. His match against HHH at WM31 was fine enough considering their ages, even if the post-match circle jerks made zero sense. Then he surprisingly held his own with Seth until Seth broke Sting.

And then he goes and pops up in AEW to continue helping give people rubs and legitimize new promotions.

The active longevity of the man is nuts. He's remained in decent shape through that whole run. Evolved his act along the way without alienating it from its nostalgic core. And all along the way, despite always leaving thoughts of "what coulda been" sprinkled everywhere, has achieved a considerable amount. Dude honestly probably deserves more love.

Let's do...

André the Giant

Andre feels like he'll have different answers depending on if you actually experienced him live. Like if you only know of him through archives and everyone hyping him up he of course is overrated, especially since we see big hosses all the time (or did). So in that way I'll say overrated because he's a dumb mark for Elizabeth who was jealous Randy was clapping those cheeks when he wasn't having play dates with teenage Steph.

AJ Styles

André had a thing for Liz!?

Nov 28, 2021 15:48:16 GMT 🤯 said:

André had a thing for Liz!?

Supposedly he used to rough up Randy when they were in the ring together because he didn't like the way he treated her. Not sure if he believed in kayfabe or if their characters was art imitating life... but tis the story I hear. May have been covered in a documentary where they say he hated Randy via Liz. Guess he didn't like his grandstanding and hot doggin.

I think never coming to the WWF or then WWE (until he did) is what somehow hurt Sting. But he had a crazy impressive run in TNA with continued character growth and slight rebrands, which is nuts. You'd think he'd be in more cruise control by then. I admittedly didn't follow his TNA career at all, but his mere presence seemed to be the first thing to really legitimize the promotion from what I can recall.

You're not wrong, Sting was a key figure behind Spike's decision to broadcast TNA when they did.

What I liked about his run is how he experimented with the character. He actually played an interesting heel character around 2008-09 where he joined the Mafia because he needed to set an example for the locker room since Double J clearly wasn't. I think the Mafia angle lost steam thanks to the Mick Foley title reign and the Samoa Joe heel turn but there were some really entertaining segments especially between Nash and Sting.

Then later on he had the Joker persona which at times was completely insane but that was what made it so entertaining. He was clearly having fun with it as well and it was better than him just coming in and putting some heel in their place.

The IWC used to be extremely high on AJ Styles, but they seem to have cooled down on him recently, perhaps because of him settling firmly into the WWE undercard and not being such a major player.

In that sense I'd say AJ Styles is underrated. He has excelled at every point in his career. When he came on the scene in the indies and in TNA's formative years, he was a standout high flyer. Sure, at that point he didn't have much charisma or personality to speak of, but he didn't need it then. As he gained experience and worked his way up the ranks in TNA, he continued to be incredible, maturing as a performer in every aspect of professional wrestling.

I didn't follow AJ Styles in his final years in TNA, but when he arrived in NJPW he was clearly a complete pro-wrestler. He had a great look, he had that menacing star quality that is required of every Bullet Club leader, a real badass aura about him. He also blended his early X-Division style with a more grounded and psychological heavyweight style to become well-rounded in the ring. He wasn't in NJPW for long but he made a huge impression, not just becaue of his strong booking but his amazing performances. Even here he had not stopped growing, and this was a necessary step to fine tune that star quality he needed in his next adventure...

...WWE was more of the same - AJ Styles was a star the moment he debuted at the Royal Rumble. He took everything he learnt before and used it to rise to the top of the food chain in WWE. In recent years he has cooled down, but I'd argue that has nothing to do with him declining as a pro-wrestler, but he's getting on in years and is content to remain in the midcard helping out the younger talent.

In my eyes AJ Styles is close to a perfect wrestler. Succeeded in many different companies wrestling many different styles. His weakness is his mic work, but even then I feel he's got as good as he can possibly get given his lack of a natural gift of the gab, and that is commendable.

Let's go for a really big fish.

Steve Austin

Nov 29, 2021 22:44:23 GMT Emperor said:

Steve Austin

Underrated.

WHAT!?

Brutus Beefcake.

I feel Austin GREATLY benefited from both his career being cut short and walking out and basically calling it a day as he started getting stale. Yes staleness and a question of why do this in his sporadic appearances as an on-screen character led to the same (and what can you really evolve when the last time it killed the business and he'll never work a match so) staleness. Had it not been forced on him, there isn't much to truly "hate" on so he gets a HUGE ASS breather than pretty much no one this side of the Rock gets when judging their wrestling careers.

I link him to Mitch Hedberg in that way. Mitch was breaking out when he died and really hit big. But at the same time people were playing sing along, meta jokes about reusing material, etc. And not long after we had Twitter, which is basically what his routine was. I dunno, having all access to Mitch via social media feels like it would ruin his gimmick. So his death cemented him in legendary cult icon status. Never got truly stale. Not working well past his prime. Just like Austin lucked out. He failed to really get big acting. His work on the stick led to a decent post-wrestling career as a host. He always says he'd walk if he can't do it at 100 and I'm sure if it wasn't a hard-r he doesn't need the money... but I get the feeling he would've stayed around longer if he didn't slip down the card... and we'd see some stuff that would have dropped his stock in a big way. He lucked out in that way. @theboss loves to see it.

Almost feels like he's cheating. Eddy and Owen get a similar outlook, but it doesn't feel as sus as Austin lucking out with a "short" career. Like we completely overlook him being a woman beater and his refusal to do business. Like I know that has ZERO to do with under/over as a worker/character... but does anyone else ever think about it? Like I'm sure physically it still sucks, especially watching them move on without you... but it feels like a lucky break.

That or one last Owen rib to say stole your career roflmao.

Steve Austin is probably the best to ever do it. I thought he was great in WCW as Stunning Steve and in the Hollywood Blondes. Before his neck injury he was one of the best workers in the business. With a screwed neck and knees he still had more classic in his short main event run than most good workers will have in their career. He was the biggest babyface ever seen. As a heel, he was massively entertaining and he was over as a heel in his run with McMahon although obviously it was still a stupid idea. The stuff with Angle and McMahon showed he could be funny. Now he's in podcasting, and no one touches him at that. I don't know how he could be overrated honestly.

Does anyone know what the story was behind Austin's supposed 2005 comeback? Did he actually agree to face Coachmen? Or was it brought up to him and then he was informed he'd be doing the favours and he promptly walked out (again)?

Nov 30, 2021 14:10:32 GMT Big Pete said:

Does anyone know what the story was behind Austin's supposed 2005 comeback? Did he actually agree to face Coachmen? Or was it brought up to him and then he was informed he'd be doing the favours and he promptly walked out (again)?

Whaaa...?

Never heard about this. Elaborate?

Nov 30, 2021 15:36:57 GMT 🤯 said:

Nov 30, 2021 14:10:32 GMT Big Pete said:

Does anyone know what the story was behind Austin's supposed 2005 comeback? Did he actually agree to face Coachmen? Or was it brought up to him and then he was informed he'd be doing the favours and he promptly walked out (again)?

Whaaa...?

Never heard about this. Elaborate?

It was around the time RAW returned to USA and they were teasing an Austin/Hogan match for Wrestlemania XXII. My memory is foggy but the way I remember it, Austin was sticking up for JR who had been replaced by Joey Styles and got involved in a feud with Coachman. However they had to switch it to Batista vs. Coachman (w/Vader & Goldust) because Austin supposedly got told he was putting Coach over.

A quick google reveals that Coach was going to job to Austin, but I swear this was well known news at the time? Vader (RIP) slipping on the apron was one of the most replayed botches of all-time too.

Brock in a throwaway (he wasn't gonna put him over even with build. Don't be naiive) is one thing but this?

jumbomask, I'm with ya on the Jamie Noble love! Even in real time when he debuted in WWE (I wasn't privy to his stuff in WCW) I instantly recognized the lil dude was dope.

For the overrated/Underrated thread, I'd love for your to reprise your referenced post about André the Giant. I think he still tends to likely be underrated for what he was and did for pro wrestling.

Let's examine Doink The Clown.

Dec 6, 2021 23:32:38 GMT Ed said:

Let's examine Doink The Clown.

The character, or a certain wrestler who portrayed the character a certain way?

My instinct is Doink is totally overrated, especially with the "He used to be good as the Matt Borne version" crowd. Borne was certainly better, but it was still wrestlecrap, and Borne, even as worker, is overrated. Thrilled for him that he had a great match with Bret Hart, so did literally everyone else on the roster at the time. Want to keep this going, though, can't close the book on Doink quite yet. 

Dec 7, 2021 3:30:14 GMT Kilgore said:

My instinct is Doink is totally overrated, especially with the "He used to be good as the Matt Borne version" crowd. Borne was certainly better, but it was still wrestlecrap, and Borne, even as worker, is overrated. Thrilled for him that he had a great match with Bret Hart, so did literally everyone else on the roster at the time. Want to keep this going, though, can't close the book on Doink quite yet. 

Not sure if this is taking the bait or anything, but I don't see how Doink was any worse wrestlecrap than Undertaker or Kane at best or Papa Shango or Big Boss Man at worst.

Dec 7, 2021 4:42:19 GMT 🤯 said:

Dec 7, 2021 3:30:14 GMT Kilgore said:

My instinct is Doink is totally overrated, especially with the "He used to be good as the Matt Borne version" crowd. Borne was certainly better, but it was still wrestlecrap, and Borne, even as worker, is overrated. Thrilled for him that he had a great match with Bret Hart, so did literally everyone else on the roster at the time. Want to keep this going, though, can't close the book on Doink quite yet. 

Not sure if this is taking the bait or anything, but I don't see how Doink was any worse wrestlecrap than Undertaker or Kane at best or Papa Shango or Big Boss Man at worst.

Yes, you're starting to see the light on Undertaker, Kane, Papa Shango and Big Boss Man. 

Dec 7, 2021 5:02:45 GMT Kilgore said:

Dec 7, 2021 4:42:19 GMT 🤯 said:

Not sure if this is taking the bait or anything, but I don't see how Doink was any worse wrestlecrap than Undertaker or Kane at best or Papa Shango or Big Boss Man at worst.

Yes, you're starting to see the light on Undertaker, Kane, Papa Shango and Big Boss Man. 

I don't what to see the light though!!! It's like trying to take flattering photos under fluorescent light tubes.

Nov 29, 2021 22:50:20 GMT 🤯 said:

Nov 29, 2021 22:44:23 GMT Emperor said:

Steve Austin

Underrated.

WHAT!?

Brutus Beefcake.

Not sure where to place BB because what person not named Terry even thinks highly of him? Are there actually Beefcake marks out there in the smarky cyber wilderness?

Overrated, I guess? The guy only got a gig as Lil' Boulder because he was Hogan's workout buddy and then he proceeded to clench those red and yellow coattails everywhere he went. His matches (what I've seen at least) range from hot shit to passable. He's a GOAT when it comes to WrestleCrap though. The only persona of his I enjoyed was The Disciple, and he was a minnow making background noise in a sea of loud killer whales then. Tbf though maybe my very, very, VERY strong hatred for the Brotherman is blinding me here a bit. There are certainly worse wrestlers, but there's a thousand better ones as well.

Jushin Thunder Liger

Dec 7, 2021 2:59:17 GMT 🤯 said:

Dec 6, 2021 23:32:38 GMT Ed said:

Let's examine Doink The Clown.

The character, or a certain wrestler who portrayed the character a certain way?

Every angle. THIS IS WRESTLECRAP!

rad's choice is remarkable because last night I was actually thinking about how I would rate Jushin Liger in this thread. I can't remember if it was in a dream or if it was in those random paths my mind takes in the period between going to bed and faling asleep. An eerie premonition. Despite that I don't have an awful lot to say on the matter.

First of all, it's impossible for Jushin "Thunder" Liger to be underrated because he is widely regarded as the greatest Junior Heavyweight wrestler ever. Very few people disagree with this assessment.

I am not one of them.

He is the greatest. He is a pioneer in many different ways. Ahead of his time. Had an incredible gimmick and attire. Amazing body of work. Worked with both juniors and heavyweights. Popular at the height of NJPW's success in the 90s, contributing largely to making the Junior heavyweight division a star attraction, on par with the phenomenal heavyweight scene. Very long career and was relevant for most of it. He was still good at the end. He's not my personal favourite, but I can't disagree with the assessment of the masses.

Jushin "Thunder" Liger is rated just right.

I forbid Kilgore from making the first response on my next choice.

Brian Pillman

Doink the Clown is overrated because clowns are terrible wrestlers.

I say not having seen a single Doink match.

Pillman is under-rated. Great talker, very good wrestler. He bumped and sold like a madman. I wonder what Brian Pillman's career trajectory would have been if he debuted in WWF first then go to ECW. Before returning to WWF. Thoughts, Kilgore, fuck WCW. I like the team with Austin but to me, for the most part, they blew chances to make his run there as good as possible.

Well said Emperor. Liger is just too cool and accomplished for me to call overrated. I almost didn't choose him because underrated is an impossible choice. Guess I was more so interested to see if there was anyone who actually found him overrated for whatever reason and why.

Pillman is underrated by default as he passed just when he was finding his groove, specifically with a more notable audience.

No offense to Mox but he's the best wrestler to ever come out of Ohio. He was so wildly ahead of his time that it's both unfunny and unfair. I view him as the Layne Staley of wrestling. He died incredibly too young, was overshadowed by peers who weren't quite as talented but had more mainstream appeal and also became more appreciated with the passing of time. It's been almost 25 years and it still bums me the fuck out that we didn't get to see more from him.

Pillman v. Y2J always comes to mind when I think of the greatest dream matches. We were robbed of some of the best back and forth promos ever.

Second time Pillman was put on the chopping block, second time he was deemed underrated, this is what legends do.

My case for Pillman, not that there really needs to be one, is he changed the American wrestling landscape twice, in two different ways. First as a junior worker, being the first truly over wrestler working what would become 90's New Style. Most people hadn't seen a springboard before Pillman, and he was doing it in matches against Ric Flair. The basement of this was what would eventually become the WCW Cruiserweight division (which totally rocked as its own thing plus made future main event stars), the ceiling was Eddie/Benoit celebrating at WM20 as the two champions of the biggest wrestling company in the world. 

The second, and this gets talked about all the time, so no need to repeat things, but as a talker, when the Loose Canon gimmick forever changed the way wrestlers talked, and angles were presented.

The tragedy of Pillman is that he was too broken down as a worker by the time his style became the new standard, and he was dead just before his proto-attitude era vision of wrestling became the mainstream point of view, en route to the industry soaring to its apex.

But that also saved him from sticking around too long, so he can be romanticized as his best self and what could have been.

Brutus Beefcake is underrated and gets lost in Hulk's shadow. But before his parasailing accident he was on fire and over with the crowd. For the time his matches were on par with everyone else. And much like Orndorff, Andre, Savage, and Warrior, well for me anyways it seems like he was being set up as the next mega power to explode on Hogan. After the accident the whole story about how his face could explode if he takes a shot to the face kind of killed what he had going for him and all the WCW gimmicks finished him off. But he and Hogan did have one of the highest Starrcade buy rates at the time. Much like Magnum and Pillman he is a what could have been.

I'm not sure if Pillman was overrated or underrated back in the day but his legend has become extremely overrated.