Dec 8, 2021 12:22:12 GMT bodyslam said:

I'm not sure if Pillman was overrated or underrated back in the day but his legend has become extremely overrated.

This bold brave soul gets it!

Do we have a next wrestler to discuss?

Dec 8, 2021 20:38:13 GMT Emperor said:

Do we have a next wrestler to discuss?

Edge

Edge as a character is under-rated.
Edge as a wrestler has been over-rated for most of his career.

I'm going to resurrect this.

I feel like Edge is a victim of being a headliner during a period most of us fell out of Pro Wrestling. The overriding sentiment seems to be that Edge was solid but he should never have been an 11-time WWE Champion. I think that's a fair sentiment, but should he be held responsible for WWE's questionable booking? Was he holding down more deserving talent?

With Edge it seemed like each time they tried pushing him as a single it would backfire. He started off with a big push in 1998 but it fizzled out. They resurrected it in 1999 after King of the Ring 1999 but that really fizzled out quickly. Then they really went hard in 2001 and just as it appeared to be going south they paired him up with Angle, Benoit, Eddie and Rey which got him over. However just as he was getting over he breaks his neck and it sidelines him.

It's been awhile, but I'm not sure why Toronto turned on him at SummerSlam 04. His feud with Evolution was like a proto-Shield feud where they were having really TV and PPV matches all the time. Still he felt directionless until real life intervened then he had one of the best feuds of the Ruthless Aggression era against Matt Hardy. That was great and the cash-in was a great moment too (a shame the WWE would continue this over and over again) but instead of giving him a meaningful reign they side-tracked him and he became something of a transitional champion.

He beat Cena only to drop it back to him to help heat him up again (which worked for a minute...until HHH buried it).

He beats RVD after Rob's indiscretion only to drop it back to Cena.

Then Kennedy suffers a major injury so they have Edge take the briefcase cash-in on Taker but then gets injured and is out until November.

Returns and beats Batista for the title in a 3-way only to lose it to Taker at Wrestlemania.

Beats The Undertaker at Extreme Rules 08, only to drop it to CM Punk just so HHH can hold onto his title when he switches brands.

Beats HHH & Kozlov in a 3-Way at Survivor Series 08 just so HHH doesn't have to drop the title to Jeff Hardy at Armaggeddon 2008.

Then he wins the title back from Jeff just so Jeff can't have a championship program at Wrestlemania, only to lose it to HHH at the next PPV.

Then he wins John Cena's title just to give Cena an opponent at Wrestlemania...and then he loses it to Cena on the show.

HHH returns to RAW, so Edge wins the title back from Cena and goes back to SmackDown where he gives the title back to Jeff since he won't have to headline Wrestlemania.

Then after falling short at Wrestlemania XXVI (A Top 3 UNDERRATED Wrestlemania) Edge finally beats Kane for the title at Armaggeddon 2010 in a four-way that features Alberto Del Rio and Rey Mysterio.

Then in storyline he has the title stripped from him by a vengeful Vickie Guerrero who puts it on her new squeeze Dolph Ziggler. Edge promptly wins the title back, defeats Del Rio at Wrestlemania and retires.

So out of all those reigns, the only time the reign was designed to be about him was right at the end. I honestly think it's an unenviable spot and other guys who could have filled that role like MVP, Kennedy, Morrison, Mike Knox etc. wouldn't have benefitted. Just look at Punk who did fill that role in 2008-09 and how he was just a guy.

I also want to highlight how crazy the WWE was in late 2008-early 2009. That period needs a rebook 🤯 Baker

I honestly think looking at that he's underrated and if anything should have featured more prominently to at least ease the burden on Cena.

I'm going to pick...

Former ECW Champion, Mikey Whipwreck. Was putting the ECW Championship a good idea, or did the joke go too far?

Dec 23, 2021 15:42:00 GMT Big Pete said:

I also want to highlight how crazy the WWE was in late 2008-early 2009. That period needs a rebook 🤯 Baker

You thinking what specifically? SummerSlam 2008 to WrestleMania 25?

Dec 23, 2021 15:42:00 GMT Big Pete said:

I also want to highlight how crazy the WWE was in late 2008-early 2009. That period needs a rebook 🤯 Baker

I'm sure it does since that was when I finally went off wrestling after 22 glorious years. But I'd have to do a lot of research and that period just doesn't interest me. I don't even have time for the half dozen or so projects I've been kicking around in my head for years that do interest me! The JBL/HBK feud and build to HBK/Taker ruled tho.

I also agree with you on Edge. I feel like he went from slightly overrated during his late 2000s heyday (probably due to recency bias) to underrated nowadays. 

Dec 24, 2021 1:45:49 GMT 🤯 said:

Dec 23, 2021 15:42:00 GMT Big Pete said:

I also want to highlight how crazy the WWE was in late 2008-early 2009. That period needs a rebook 🤯 Baker

You thinking what specifically? SummerSlam 2008 to WrestleMania 25?

Well it seemed like they lost the plot around the 2008 Draft, so that period through till the 2009 Draft.

It was a really weird period for the WWE where it seemed like they turned to a lot of tried and true performers like Taker, Shawn, Hunter, Show, Jericho, JBL etc. to help dig them out of the Benoit tragedy. Hardly anything felt current or new and when they would push somebody like Punk or Jeff you could tell they weren't really behind it.

It's such a messy period, like Bake, I feel like I'd have to go back and watch a few shows just to remind myself of what can be salvaged...but that doesn't feel very festivy.

I have nothing to say on Mikey Whipwreck. Not seen a single match. Couldn't even tell you what he looks like.

Anyone else wanna take him?

Mikey was in the right place at the right time. In 1995, he was the underdog's underdog. Whipwreck was never gonna be Shane or The Sandman but he was beloved in that period. I enjoyed Mikey for who he was.

Dec 24, 2021 18:26:09 GMT Ed said:

Mikey was in the right place at the right time. In 1995, he was the underdog's underdog. Whipwreck was never gonna be Shane or The Sandman but he was beloved in that period. I enjoyed Mikey for who he was.

Who was a better undersized underdog, Mikey or Spike?

Dec 24, 2021 19:40:09 GMT 🤯 said:

Dec 24, 2021 18:26:09 GMT Ed said:

Mikey was in the right place at the right time. In 1995, he was the underdog's underdog. Whipwreck was never gonna be Shane or The Sandman but he was beloved in that period. I enjoyed Mikey for who he was.

Who was a better-undersized underdog, Mikey or Spike?

I'll say Mikey. he was a triple crown champion. Spike wasn't involved in much stuff beyond feuding with Buh Buh & Devon.

Something in the 1995 zeitgeist that needed underdogs to win. Maybe it was the actual George Foreman title win, but WWF did Barry Horowitz/Bob Backlund soon after, and ECW did Whipwreck winning the title all that year. Although, to ECW being ahead of the curve's credit (as always), the Mikey ascent began the previous year with his ECW TV Title run. But still, it's insane that Whipwreck rode that to World Champion, and yet, it worked, it made sense, the fans not only accepted it, but genuinely loved it.

ECW was doing something similar with JT Smith before Mikey, then with Spike after, Paul E. must just love having someone have that place on the card.

Over-rated or unrated: Public Enemy. I never cared for Johnny or Rock. Paul E worked a miracle getting those guys over.

Dec 27, 2021 20:42:20 GMT Ed said:

Over-rated or unrated: Public Enemy. I never cared for Johnny or Rock. Paul E worked a miracle getting those guys over.

Agreed. 

Hardcore Holly

Dec 27, 2021 20:17:50 GMT Kilgore said:

Something in the 1995 zeitgeist that needed underdogs to win. Maybe it was the actual George Foreman title win, but WWF did Barry Horowitz/Bob Backlund soon after, and ECW did Whipwreck winning the title all that year. Although, to ECW being ahead of the curve's credit (as always), the Mikey ascent began the previous year with his ECW TV Title run. But still, it's insane that Whipwreck rode that to World Champion, and yet, it worked, it made sense, the fans not only accepted it, but genuinely loved it.

ECW was doing something similar with JT Smith before Mikey, then with Spike after, Paul E. must just love having someone have that place on the card.

S. Waltman from 1993 says high. Also Jannetty beating Shawn got the underdog ball rolling that year as well for the WWF. Backlund also had a great Royal Rumble performance too didn't he in '93?

As for Hardcore Holly I'll go out on a limb and say he was underrated. He seemed to have got a lot of flak but he was a believable character once he shed that Thurman Plug crap and was a solid worker.

Up next: Randall Keith Orton

Randy is over-rated by WWE standards. JBL use to drool all him, saying he was the prototypical sports entertainer. When Orton is motivated, he's a delight to watch. When Orton isn't, you can tell.

Randy Orton is underrated.

Underrated by fans, I mean. Wrestlers will tell you that Randy is one of the best guys to work with. Most fans will tell you that he's a boring one-dimensional dud who stunk up the main event scene of WWE for years with his dull matches.

I disagree. I'm not going to claim Randy Orton is a GOAT, but he's had one of the best careers a pro-wrestler can ask for, and he's done it by crafting a safe style of his own and making it work against anyone he steps in the ring with. He has two of the most over finishers in history with the RKO and The Punt. Simple moves that had been seen before, but Randy gave them a life of their own.

He's better in the ring than people give him credit for. Sure, he's had his fair share of duds like anyone, but he has had memorable matches against the likes of The Undertaker, John Cena, Jeff Hardy, Edge, Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels, and so on. He's a competent promo and has thrived particularly as a heel. While he can work babyface to a reasonable degree, it's clear he's a natural heel and he is certainly one of the more diabolical villains WWE has ever seen, especially in the PG era. He also has a perhaps surprising scope for comedy, as evidenced by his recent alliance with Matt Riddle.

Randy Orton is a lot more versatile than people give him credit for, with a largely successful career many wrestlers would be envious of.

Batista

Batista is under-rated. I think I didn't appreciate Dave when he was around. His babyface turn was 1 of the best. Injuries setback Dave a ton.

Dec 29, 2021 0:40:46 GMT Ed said:

Batista is under-rated. I think I didn't appreciate Dave when he was around. His babyface turn was 1 of the best. Injuries setback Dave a ton.

Co-signed.

Dec 29, 2021 1:56:19 GMT 🤯 said:

Dec 29, 2021 0:40:46 GMT Ed said:

Batista is under-rated. I think I didn't appreciate Dave when he was around. His babyface turn was 1 of the best. Injuries setback Dave a ton.

Co-signed.

I approve this message as well.

"Flyin" Brian Pillman was underrated. "Loose Cannon" Brian Pillman was overrated as fuck.

Edge is overrated in terms of kayfabe as there is no way he should have had 12 title runs. But as a worker and character I think he's rated about right.

Mikey should have never been a champion in ANY promotion, not even ECW. It's laughable to think he was put over Steve Austin.

Public Enemy is definitely overrated. A product of Paul Heyman.

It's hard to call Holly overrated because he was never that highly regarded.

I think Randy is rated about right.

Batista was definitely underrated. When healthy he was fantastic to watch.

Rikishi.

Dec 31, 2021 9:56:17 GMT Emperor said:

Rikishi.

Overall underrated. He could've been the face version of Yokozuna. The heel turn killed him so bad.

Have we done Arn Anderson?

Rikishi was underrated for sure. He's mostly remembered as a joke character, but the guy had been involved in mainstream wrestling since 1988 and The Headshrinkers/Samoan Swat Team were a really solid tag team. It seemed like he'd be a career tag guy and that would have been fine but he just nailed every opportunity as Rikishi. From the impressive early Sunday Night Heat showings, to a surprise title shot against HHH he just had so much confidence in his act.

I even enjoyed his involvement in the SmackDown Six era working against the Guerreros. He was one of those perfect mid-card acts that came in and added another flavour and kept the match-ups feeling fresh.

Let's get this show back on the road.



Carlito Carribbean Cool - Cool or Chump?

Chump. Great Value Razor Ramon with no offense. Remember him mainly for two things- the awful Cena feud and getting buried by Ric Flair that one time.

For the time he felt like he coulda been something. The backcracker (at least the indies tried to make it seem legit by calling it a lung blower) was just an awful finisher. And wasn't his first year or so he was completely without a finisher until he started using that? I swear that was a big discussion here... like he should totally have a finisher brah.

@ness nailed it. Exactly what I meant about him having no offense. For the longest time I remember all his matches following the same lame formula- Stupid apple spit. Get beat up by the babyface for 5 minutes or so. Win on a cheat. Carlito out there wrestling like the 1997 New Age Outlaws. I couldn’t stand the 1997 New Age Outlaws. Couldn’t stand Carlito either. Low key one of my least favorite Ruthless Aggression era talents.