Paul Orndorff is one of the most underrated talents of the last 40 years. Wrestlemania and Hulkamania don't work as well if you took Mr. Wonderful out of the equation. Drew nothing but $$$$$ and was an amazing worker. Watching this channel just reinforces the fact:

www.youtube.com/@pau1orndorff

Nov 29, 2022 4:00:43 GMT Shootist said:

Paul Orndorff is one of the most underrated talents of the last 40 years. Wrestlemania and Hulkamania don't work as well if you took Mr. Wonderful out of the equation. Drew nothing but $$$$$ and was an amazing worker. Watching this channel just reinforces the fact:

www.youtube.com/@pau1orndorff

Great channel. Been watching it a lot myself. Think it's run by Orndorff's son Travis. I know he used to have a Youtube channel. Pretty sure it's the same one and he just changed the name.

Let's see if I can resurrect this thread with...

Perry Saturn

Dec 8, 2022 0:45:43 GMT Baker said:

Let's see if I can resurrect this thread with...

Perry Saturn

Properly rated. In every promotion, the placement of PS felt pretty fair to me.

Dec 8, 2022 0:52:47 GMT Ed said:

Dec 8, 2022 0:45:43 GMT Baker said:

Let's see if I can resurrect this thread with...

Perry Saturn

Properly rated. In every promotion, the placement of PS felt pretty fair to me.

Seconded.

And this is speaking as someone who loved Perry's Moppy schtick so much I would've pushed him to the IC title over Edge.

Dec 8, 2022 0:45:43 GMT Baker said:

Let's see if I can resurrect this thread with...

Perry Saturn

Like Ed 's opinion of Saturn, properly rated in real time, but think he's a little underrated historically being a product of his time, a time that passed, and now doesn't seem like anything special. His run as the Bret/Shawn/Bobby Eaton of The Eliminators into the workhorse of The Flock made him a bad motherfucker, and in the (not great) workrate of that period of time, a genuine standout. Problem for him was that it was brief, and then better guys surpassed him soon after, but I think there is a bit of "you had to be there at the time" to appreciate how good he was 1995-1998.

The Pitbulls: to me, they were a bit overrated. I love the dog collar match. Besides that, they were just there,

Agree with Kilgore on Saturn for slightly different reasons. He was rated properly during most of his heyday. Perfectly booked in ECW as one half of a cult favorite tag team with cool moves and a solid midcard workhorse in WCW. But I think the reason he doesn't get much love today is because his WWF run quite frankly sucked. Whether you want to blame the booking or Saturn himself (the Mike Bell incident did him no favors) the fact is he didn't deliver in WWF. He also didn't have much of a post-WWE career to speak of. Out of sight, out of mind.

Pitbulls are rated properly imo. If anyone remembers them at all it's as a fun ECW tag team, which is what they were. Their act would never have worked in WWF or WCW simply because these two 5'10 dudes no selling like the Road Warriors would have been laughable in those lands of giants. But like a lot of other guys they were a perfect fit for ECW.

Didn't Saturn get shot but he no sold it in saving someone? Or have I been giving him mad undeserved credit for tough @ness?

Dec 9, 2022 0:39:18 GMT @ness said:

Didn't Saturn get shot but he no sold it in saving someone? Or have I been giving him mad undeserved credit for tough @ness ?

Oh wow. Turns out he did. prowrestlingstories.com/pro-wrestling-stories/perry-saturn-bravery/

Yeah, The Radicalz damaged Saturn a lot. While you can't blame him for being the worst among Benoit/Guerrero/Malenko, that's an insane group, you can blame him for pretty much sucking the entire run. And for the biggest audience he'd ever have. That'll do damage.

He wasn't particularly good his last year in WCW, either, minus a couple of tag matches. Was a short window where he was at his best and that time had passed by the time he got to the WWF.

What about JT Smith? I mean how far was the guy really going to go but yet seeing some of the bums that had regular gigs on WCW Saturday Night all those years can't help but think JT deserved better. Obviously was never going to be a serious wrestler but man there was legitimate talent and personality there. 

Just can't help but think Vince would have loved the guy circa 94-95-96, take any retarded gimmick that Vince came up with through those years and put it on JT Smith and like the guy fucking runs with it and makes it work I'd bet, let him be Duke The Dumpster Droese or The Dean or the Hog farmer and the dude would have instantly made the shit more entertaining than the guys who got those parts.

Dec 9, 2022 2:24:44 GMT Neo Zeed said:

What about JT Smith? I mean how far was the guy really going to go but yet seeing some of the bums that had regular gigs on WCW Saturday Night all those years can't help but think JT deserved better. Obviously was never going to be a serious wrestler but man there was legitimate talent and personality there. 

Yeah, man. JT was underrated. Like you say, was never going far, but had a genuinely great ability to connect with a crowd as a babyface in peril. That's difficult to do! And his FBI run was a hoot as "My favorite paisan," so he could do heel comedy, too, which is also difficult. When you think of all the novelty acts that made it to Monday Night television, certainly JT could have fulfilled a role well. Doing that, his wrestling would have been more than good enough. 

And took all those ridiculous bumps, yeah dude was one of those guys that should have got a gig in the big leagues that just didn't.

I agree about JT Smith, a longtime ECW workhorse, had a fun run with the FBI, good in the ring, he checks most of the boxes. I would have liked to have seen what he could have done in front of a larger audience.

Agree with you guys on JT Smith (well, aside from Neo Zeed rudely besmirching HOG and The Dean). Took big bumps. Entertaining goofball heel. Had a handful of cool mid 90s moves. Knew how to work a crowd. Gabe, Tod, and basically everybody else who worked ECW put him over as a guy who was easy to work with and great to have in the locker room.

It's a shame he didn't stick around for a few more years as ECW continued to grow. I could honestly see him getting a WWF gig* and Vince taking a shine to him the way he sometimes did with lower card acts. He'd obviously never be nowhere near a top guy, but you need versatile folks like JT to fill out a card. Would have been a good low midcard act. A much better fit for WWF than the previously mentioned Pitbulls. Best case scenario he carves out a lengthy career for himself as a Funaki/Scotty Too Hotty/even Stevie Richards type.

*Never forget WWF brought The Blue Meanie in three times. We take for granted how insane that is. I say this as one who enjoyed the Meanie, but he is such an unWWF wrestler.

JT Smith could have been the next SD Jones in the WWF.

how bout Rick Martel

Dec 10, 2022 4:23:38 GMT bodyslam said:

how bout Rick Martel

First instinct is to say overrated.

WWF run: Weak link of Strike Force. Gets an AWESOME heel persona handed to him and ... can barely get through the promos. Matches are mostly bad. He's one of those supposedly good workrate guys with very little to prove that true. Granted, he's working heel, in a territory not known for great workrate during that era, so he's got a lot of things stacked against him, but what are the memorable Rick Martel matches in the WWF? Blindfold match, Raw match against Razor, and ... ? There had to be one good match against Tito, but it's weird that I can't immediately recall one. I think pre-singles Wrestler Bret got a good match out of him on a SNME or Prime Time Wrestling, but Bret did that with everyone. Slim pickings is the point.

WCW run: When they threw him into the awesome TV Title scene in early 1998, just an instant anchor. I think only one of those matches (against Booker?) was good. Again, can't totally blame him. He peaked as a worker in the mid-80s, and here he was expected to keep up with prime Benoit/Booker, he should have never been thrown into that situation, but it's just more examples of Martel being unimpressive in television matches. And he doesn't even have the cool model gimmick to make him seem interesting.

All this said, I haven't seen his AWA stuff. It's quite possible that would win me over. But WWF/WCW; overrated.

I'd lean towards underrated for Saturn. He's the Ringo Starr of the Revolution/Radicalz but he's a better performer than the non-sequitor spouting guy who fell in love with a mop. It didn't dawn on me until I revisited that era, but Saturn was one of the more featured talents of WCW circa 1998 when it was at the peak of it's powers and he was usually involved in the best matches on any given show. He didn't really work an American style and was far more go-go-go but it worked for him. He came off more as a wrestling all-rounder who could match wrestlers athletically or technically if need be.

He was a victim of circumstance in WCW. Raven was supposed to feud with Piper, but somehow that got nixed so Saturn ended up pairing with Raven in what was supposed to be a Freebirds arrangement with Kanyon. Raven somehow ended up out of action (some serious illness I believe) and by the time he came back, Page stole Raven's idea and Kanyon along with it to form the Jersey Triad. By that point Saturn had been saddled up to form the Revolution with Benoit, Malenko and Douglas but by the time that stable had officially formed, Flair's presidency had been terminated so they had nobody to feud with. Weeks later, Bischoff is out, Russo comes in and the Revolution get caught in this rivalry with the Filthy Animals where it seemed like the main source of conflict was between Eddie-Kidman. So all Saturn could really do was start doing his non-sequitor shitck a year or so before the WWF stole it.

The only Saturn match I remember (I don't consider him killing a jobber a match, more a public execution) is the Judgement Day 2000 3-way which is one of my favourite matches of the year. Not an all-time broadway classic, but just the type of match that hits the spot. Baker are there any other note-worthy matches?

It's been a minute since I saw Martel and I'm only familiar with his '98 stuff but I remember the run being really promising until Booker decided to crush his head with his ass.

Look at Kilgore no-selling Martel's tag team specialist days. The Can-Am Connection (which Martel was definitely the Saturn of) and Strike Force (which was more of a more successful face version of the Dream Team) turned out awesome matches and then ended with an awesome angle. No way I'm giving Zenk any/all the credit, and Tito & Martel had to carry equal-ish weight in the Strike Force stuff.

Strike Force was a solid team. The perfect bridge between The Hart Foundation & Demolition.

Dec 10, 2022 13:05:11 GMT 🤯 said:

Look at Kilgore no-selling Martel's tag team specialist days. The Can-Am Connection (which Martel was definitely the Saturn of) and Strike Force (which was more of a more successful face version of the Dream Team) turned out awesome matches and then ended with an awesome angle. No way I'm giving Zenk any/all the credit, and Tito & Martel had to carry equal-ish weight in the Strike Force stuff.

Genuinely forgot Can-Am ever existed. 

Dec 11, 2022 1:55:23 GMT Kilgore said:

Dec 10, 2022 13:05:11 GMT 🤯 said:

Look at Kilgore no-selling Martel's tag team specialist days. The Can-Am Connection (which Martel was definitely the Saturn of) and Strike Force (which was more of a more successful face version of the Dream Team) turned out awesome matches and then ended with an awesome angle. No way I'm giving Zenk any/all the credit, and Tito & Martel had to carry equal-ish weight in the Strike Force stuff.

Genuinely forgot Can-Am ever existed. 

You snoozed on the second best match from WM3 then, after Herc vs. Haynes!

Rick Martel- Overrated in the sense he should never have been a World Champion even if it was only the Champ of an AWA in decline. Definitely an "lol AWA" moment when I found out as a youngster. And I liked The Model! Just didn't think he was World Champion material even as a dumb kid. As I aged I mellowed out, came to realize my perceptions of wrestling were viewed through a WWF lens, and became more accepting of stuff I once dismissed without a second thought. "Maybe Martel was a decent World Champ after all?" I thought. Nope! Here's why...

I listen to a lot of shoot interviews from old timers and even listened to a bunch of episodes from a little known AWA podcast earlier this year. It's a nearly unanimous take among fans and wrestlers of the era that Martel was not a great Champion. Almost to a man they put over his in ring ability before saying he couldn't cut a promo to bring fans into the building, and while the the fans did like him, they never loved him the way you want in a long term babyface World Champ.

In that immediate post-Hogan period AWA was actually still drawing pretty well. Yet the big babyface draw was not Martel, but Jerry Blackwell who had replaced Hogan as #1 in the hearts and minds of AWA fans. I'm not saying Blackwell as Champ rather than Martel would have saved AWA. Blackwell had little to no national appeal and his health would go south within a few years anyway. But Verne going with bland pure wrestler Martel as World Champ over the wildly popular, yet non-traditional Blackwell is just another Verneism that didn't help the company survive. He basically repeated the same mistake he made with Hogan a second time right after Hogan left! 
==============
Rated properly by people who don't care about the AWA or him winning their World Title. Strike Force & Can-Am Connection were fine pretty boy 80s babyface teams. Strike Force experienced kayfabe success by winning the Tag Titles when the division was stacked. Model was a classic 'annoying' midcard heel gimmick in the style of The Mountie & IRS. Had a memorable feud with Jake. His Boston Crab finish had credibility on the playground. That move hurt!

Kilgore I'm with 🤯 in thinking Strike Force was a 50/50 proposition. I can see somebody giving Santana the nod over Martel based on his longer tenure with the company, but even then it would only be 55/45 Tito at most. You're the first person I've seen other than me in real time (who wasn't watching btw) bash Martel's 1998 WCW return. Everybody else seems to love that oddball quickie comeback. Of course 1998 me (who wasn't watching!) was all "lol where'd they dig up The Model?" In reality he had only been out of the spotlight a few years, but of course everything changed during his few years away.

For good Model singles matches I'd add the Model/HBK "no face punching" match at Summerslam 92. Twas good sports entertainment gaga. You're right he doesn't have a lot of good singles matches in WWF, but also mentioned yourself that the early 90s WWF environment wasn't exactly conducive to good/great matches, though he really should have had at least one match with Tito that people still remember today.

Never seen any of the hyped matches myself, but I have seen people claim Strike Force/Islanders is the best in ring tag team feud in 80s WWF. Over Harts/Bulldogs and Rockers/Brainbusters! In addition to WM 3 mentioned by PI, his WM 4, 5, and Summerslam 89 tag matches are among the best on those respective shows. 

General consensus is he was better in ring as a babyface but more interesting/charismatic as a heel. Still think he would have been a perfectly fine IC Champ as The Model had that been in the cards. It wasn't. And I'm fine with that as well. He was a role player who filled his role adequately.

Dec 13, 2022 6:14:11 GMT Baker said:

Kilgore I'm with 🤯 in thinking Strike Force was a 50/50 proposition. I can see somebody giving Santana the nod over Martel based on his longer tenure with the company, but even then it would only be 55/45 Tito at most. 

I invite you gentleman to watch any random Strike Force tag match, a non squash match, a rivalry match, come back and tell me if there were Tito chants in that match. Then tell me if there were any Martel chants. 

For Martel it all evened out in the wash to say he is probably rated properly now. Vastly overrated, especially by the Apter mags, as a world champion. Even Jimmy Crockett put Martel over in a Press Conference article saying that Martel and Flair are the only true world champions. Martel was also rated ahead of Hogan in the top 10 for most of 1984 and parts of 1985. I've also come across the same things as Baker, that he was a great worker who lacked charisma and struggled with the language barrier as a French Canadian.

He has been kind of underrated as the Model, I agree, great annoying midcard heel in the vein of a IRS or Mountie. He came out of his shell and made that gimmick work. His accent for me put that gimmick over further, it gave it that European flavor. He did get a bit of a rub being paired with Tito but Chico had been on a bit of a decline himself after losing the IC title to Savage. Martel was a surprise in 1998 WCW having solid matches with both Booker and Benoit, his technical prowess did not wane in the 5 year gap since I had seen him last. He was a solid all around talent who would have been a great addition to any roster of the 80's and 90's to flesh out the midcard.

Dec 10, 2022 11:38:38 GMT Big Pete said:

The only Saturn match I remember (I don't consider him killing a jobber a match, more a public execution) is the Judgement Day 2000 3-way which is one of my favourite matches of the year. Not an all-time broadway classic, but just the type of match that hits the spot. Baker are there any other note-worthy matches?

Only thing I've got is HHH/Saturn from a 2000 Heat and chances are I only remember that for the novelty factor of big star HHH appearing on lowly Heat. Saturn was also in some good multi-man tags, but it's not really "a Saturn match" when you've 5 or 9 other guys in there. Sad thing is one possibly(!) recommended singles match for Saturn's entire WWE run puts him below such noted scrubs as Rene Dupree and Orlando Jordan, both of whom I am more confident with my one match apiece recommendations (both vs. Undertaker on Smackdown).