Nov 14, 2021 12:48:36 GMT rad said:

Nov 14, 2021 12:04:13 GMT @ness said:

We need a hard reset.

Sounds like an authoritarian's wet dream. Unless you're arguing for Thanos 2024, that is.

Either option sounds like a bummer. I like bitching about existing too much. And also turtles...

Flat tax, everyone pays the same whether they are a business or an individual with no deductions.

Nov 16, 2021 9:24:46 GMT c said:

Another take on how it is corporate monopolies driving inflation.

www.eurasiareview.com/11112021-robert-reich-whats-really-driving-inflation-corporate-power-oped

Straight out nonsense....
Cherry-picking three abnormally profitable companies does not show a trend.
Maybe have a look at what percentage of companies are actually doing stock buy backs, then ask yourself why any corporation would spend so much money on such overvalued stock?
The reason is that because of inflation there is no better return for that money... Which is scary.

Nov 17, 2021 7:59:42 GMT iNCY said:

Nov 14, 2021 12:48:36 GMT rad said:

Sounds like an authoritarian's wet dream. Unless you're arguing for Thanos 2024, that is.

Either option sounds like a bummer. I like bitching about existing too much. And also turtles...

Flat tax, everyone pays the same whether they are a business or an individual with no deductions.

Do businesses get to deduct cost of goods sold?

I'm for a flat tax IF individuals can deduct their expenses like companies can. If a business can deduct its rent then so should an individual. If that's the case then flat tax all net income at 25%.

Nov 17, 2021 15:42:49 GMT Gyro LC said:

Nov 17, 2021 7:59:42 GMT iNCY said:

Flat tax, everyone pays the same whether they are a business or an individual with no deductions.

Do businesses get to deduct cost of goods sold?

I'm for a flat tax IF individuals can deduct their expenses like companies can. If a business can deduct its rent then so should an individual. If that's the case then flat tax all net income at 25%.

I wouldn't let individuals deduct costs.
Businesses could only deduct the actual running costs such as material, rent and wages. No other deductions.

Then flat tax for all.
But no other taxes, state or federal.

Deductions are why the US abandoned a flat tax. Voters also see through flat taxes. Flat taxes in practices raises taxes on the poor and middle classes while giving the rich massive tax cuts. Also since it mostly deals with income, moving to straight flat income tax, means most wealthy people simply are no longer taxed at all, and the poor and middle class see their taxes increased further. Since basic minimum costs of living stays the same regardless of tax bracket, this hurts the lower classes the most.

To make a flat tax work, without having to increase welfare benefits, you start to add deductions for minimum cost of living, lower income thresholds, child deductions, ect. By the time you are finished are have a progressive lite tax sees the poor paying relatively the same rate, the rich getting massive tax cuts and the middle class having tax rate increased to compensate. Under this plan you all would see your taxes go up several points, so Bezos, Musk and the like could live tax free.

When you move to businesses, entire industries have stated they will fail if this is ever put into place as they claim this will utterly kill innovation. Energy, pharmaceuticals, science tech firms, ect all say if this were put into place they would be forced to slash their research budgets. Right now in most countries research is tax payer funded through deductions. Remove the deductions and these companies claim they cannot it anymore. Nor can they improve services like making sure the power still works in the winter, or there are no interruptions in power. Ditto for giving workers safe conditions or reducing environmental impact. I think it is bullshit, but any business getting corporate welfare will also oppose a flat tax.

Very, very people who understand the full economic impact of flat tax actually still want it. In almost all cases because it will result in them paying considerably more in taxes. Apply to businesses as well, prices will also rise as the tax increases most businesses will face are moved to consumers.

/////

Tim Scott pretty much said GOP plans to root for inflation as if it remains a problem during the midterm election, the GOP will pick up more seats. The more Americas see prices rise the better the GOP will do and they know this. Once they have the majority they will keep it high until 2024 to flip the White House, then fix it by reimplementing trickle down economics.

The numbers I believe last time we had this flat tax talk was to keep tax income the same, the average middle class person would see a tax increase of 3000, and the upper middle class (20000+) would see their taxes increase 10000.  

No flat tax proposal in the modern era remains truly flat either as almost all system exempt those at the poverty line from taxation, and that burden gets shifted up.  Also almost all start to allow deductions which again shifts around burden and ends up making these progressive systems with the real tax rates and how the progressive curve actually works being obscured.  Even people who claim flat tax with no deductions when you look into the details of implementation, will allow deductions.

There is more theoretical danger from this as if people know only income in taxes and not assets, then workers in upper middle class jobs will likely negotiate for lower income and to be paid for in assets like company stock as the wealthy currently do.  This then will result in people without this option to face higher tax rates to compensate.

Nov 17, 2021 17:24:28 GMT c said:

Deductions are why the US abandoned a flat tax. Voters also see through flat taxes. Flat taxes in practices raises taxes on the poor and middle classes while giving the rich massive tax cuts. Also since it mostly deals with income, moving to straight flat income tax, means most wealthy people simply are no longer taxed at all, and the poor and middle class see their taxes increased further. Since basic minimum costs of living stays the same regardless of tax bracket, this hurts the lower classes the most.

To make a flat tax work, without having to increase welfare benefits, you start to add deductions for minimum cost of living, lower income thresholds, child deductions, ect. By the time you are finished are have a progressive lite tax sees the poor paying relatively the same rate, the rich getting massive tax cuts and the middle class having tax rate increased to compensate. Under this plan you all would see your taxes go up several points, so Bezos, Musk and the like could live tax free.

When you move to businesses, entire industries have stated they will fail if this is ever put into place as they claim this will utterly kill innovation. Energy, pharmaceuticals, science tech firms, ect all say if this were put into place they would be forced to slash their research budgets. Right now in most countries research is tax payer funded through deductions. Remove the deductions and these companies claim they cannot it anymore. Nor can they improve services like making sure the power still works in the winter, or there are no interruptions in power. Ditto for giving workers safe conditions or reducing environmental impact. I think it is bullshit, but any business getting corporate welfare will also oppose a flat tax.

Very, very people who understand the full economic impact of flat tax actually still want it. In almost all cases because it will result in them paying considerably more in taxes. Apply to businesses as well, prices will also rise as the tax increases most businesses will face are moved to consumers.

/////

Tim Scott pretty much said GOP plans to root for inflation as if it remains a problem during the midterm election, the GOP will pick up more seats. The more Americas see prices rise the better the GOP will do and they know this. Once they have the majority they will keep it high until 2024 to flip the White House, then fix it by reimplementing trickle down economics.

Yes, flat tax generates more income for the government, that's the point.
It's not a tax cut for the super rich though, people aren't paying those taxes, they're deferring the profit through trusts and complex tax shelter arrangements.
If you made the tax on corporations and people similar, there is then no reason to defer the income.
I defer lots of income because it makes sense for me to do so, if it didn't, I would pay the tax now and pay it to myself.

I also have some more numbers on inflation that will speak to your "it's all invented" narrative.

I am not saying it is invented, I am saying it is manipulated and people forgot how many groups said they will freeze price increases during COVID but warned prices will raise faster afterwards to account for the freeze. Price increases this year as essentially two years of price increases as a result and no one seems to be understanding this. If prices raise 0 one year and 8 the next, present only one year and it is high, but present it as an average yearly increase of 4 percent.

And you can show we all the data you want, but when the largest multinational companies have record levels of stock buy back, profit revenue and cash on hand, BEFORE raising prices where are the cost increases they are expected to see under a model of inflation? Does inflation just not hit the largest corporations?

Furthermore, how does policy created inflation in the US cause inflation in the rest of the world?  Sure tremors are expected, but the rest of the world sees similar levels of inflation as the US, which to me means there is no causal path between what people are saying are the causes of rising prices (social spending in the US) and what is actually happening.

Also flat tax rates are socialist My grandfather's brother in law old man Pete used to tell us how his comrades back home did not have to deal with this silly tax crap, they just paid a flat rate on income in the Ukraine and it worked out great for everyone. This silly democracy stuff just made everything complicated he said. God I miss that commie bastard so much. Nothing like growing up watching the adults argue about Reagan's economics and doing GOP vs Dem arguments then having Pete enter the conversation and push for communism as the greatest way of life.

Nov 17, 2021 18:05:21 GMT c said:

Also flat tax rates are socialist My grandfather's brother in law old man Pete used to tell us how his comrades back home did not have to deal with this silly tax crap, they just paid a flat rate on income in the Ukraine and it worked out great for everyone. This silly democracy stuff just made everything complicated he said. God I miss that commie bastard so much. Nothing like growing up watching the adults argue about Reagan's economics and doing GOP vs Dem arguments then having Pete enter the conversation and push for communism as the greatest way of life.

That's a rubbish argument, bracketed tax rates are as socialist as you can get.
This is something everyone should get behind, but they won't, because low to middle class wage Warner's pay more taxes than they do currently and that's an election loser.
If you stop penalising people for overtime by taking more tax you free up more innovation and capacity for hours to the market.
You also move to a user pays system which is fairer for all.

Finally, the only ones opposed to this are the super rich... Screw them.
Any non shill economist you talk to would advocate ripping up the tax code and returning to something like this.

OK there Stalin. Few weeks late for an October Revolution but I am still down for ripping the bourgeois out of their homes anytime!!! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!


But can move away from theoretical, as this was the congressional report of what the 1994 19 percent flat tax plan would look like after accounting for SSI, Medicare and sales local taxes.  This was Perot's plan that the GOP tried to rally around.  When the report came out it was so devasting that they cut this entirely from Contract with America.  Bush was voted out of office after it was revealed the GOP wanted to move to a flat tax that would drastically increase taxes on the middle class and poor.

Quintile    Income   Pct Chg  Tax Rate   New Eff Rate   Pct Chg      
Lowest     6,700     -21.7      7.7           27.7              +20
Second    14,800   -11.0      15.2          24.5              +9.3
Middle     23,100     -5.3      19.1          23.4              +4.3 
Fourth     32,400     -1.3      21.7          22.7              +1
Highest    70,300     6.8       26.7          21.7              -5

Clearly it is easy to see that unless the federal government could end state sales taxes, that the richest end up with a tax cut.  Even if they did not flat tax works by bringing up tax rates on the lower classes while cutting the tax rates on the wealthy.  Even without adjusting for VAT taxes and shit the poor would see their taxes go up 11 points at 19 and lower middle class would see their taxes raise several points as well.  The wealthy would walk away with a 7 point tax cut.  

This is why the super rich want flat taxes.  Every ten years or so this makes waves, the congressional budget report is released, people run the numbers and the same result is seen.  It raises the taxes on the poor and lowers the taxes on the rich.  Income after taxes is greatly reduced for the poor, everyone else sees moderate decreases and the rich get more income.

Nov 17, 2021 23:33:23 GMT c said:

OK there Stalin. Few weeks late for an October Revolution but I am still down for ripping the bourgeois out of their homes anytime!!! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!


But can move away from theoretical, as this was the congressional report of what the 1994 19 percent flat tax plan would look like after accounting for SSI, Medicare and sales local taxes.  This was Perot's plan that the GOP tried to rally around.  When the report came out it was so devasting that they cut this entirely from Contract with America.  Bush was voted out of office after it was revealed the GOP wanted to move to a flat tax that would drastically increase taxes on the middle class and poor.

Quintile    Income   Pct Chg  Tax Rate   New Eff Rate   Pct Chg      
Lowest     6,700     -21.7      7.7           27.7              +20
Second    14,800   -11.0      15.2          24.5              +9.3
Middle     23,100     -5.3      19.1          23.4              +4.3 
Fourth     32,400     -1.3      21.7          22.7              +1
Highest    70,300     6.8       26.7          21.7              -5

Clearly it is easy to see that unless the federal government could end state sales taxes, that the richest end up with a tax cut.  Even if they did not flat tax works by bringing up tax rates on the lower classes while cutting the tax rates on the wealthy.  Even without adjusting for VAT taxes and shit the poor would see their taxes go up 11 points at 19 and lower middle class would see their taxes raise several points as well.  The wealthy would walk away with a 7 point tax cut.  

This is why the super rich want flat taxes.  Every ten years or so this makes waves, the congressional budget report is released, people run the numbers and the same result is seen.  It raises the taxes on the poor and lowers the taxes on the rich.  Income after taxes is greatly reduced for the poor, everyone else sees moderate decreases and the rich get more income.

I would be very happy to say no tax on your first 15k.
It is the middle class that largely oppose flat taxes, they cry about the 5%.
What people don't understand about taxing the rich, is they simply won't take income and therefore there is nothing to tax, this fixes that.
There is no reason to evade tax if all vehicles are treated the same.

You also act like I am some Regan trickle-down enthusiast, I am not, I am a socially minded capitalist.
I believe in single payer socialized medicine and aged support.
I also support a safety net for the unemployed.

Where I am a capitalist is that I subscribe to Thatcher-nomics only in the capacity that:



"What are the lessons then that we’ve learned from the last thirty years? First, that the pursuit of equality itself is a mirage. What's more desirable and more practicable than the pursuit of equality is the pursuit of equality of opportunity. And opportunity means nothing unless it includes the right to be unequal and the freedom to be different. One of the reasons that we value individuals is not because they're all the same, but because they're all different. I believe you have a saying in the Middle West: ‘Don’t cut down the tall poppies. Let them rather grow tall.’ I would say, let our children grow tall and some taller than others if they have the ability in them to do so. Because we must build a society in which each citizen can develop his full potential, both for his own benefit and for the community as a whole, a society in which originality, skill, energy and thrift are rewarded, in which we encourage rather than restrict the variety and richness of human nature."

Yeah, all of this is way over my head. Like I said before, economics are my ideological weak point and I need to work on that.

I'm in favor of whichever suggestion here actually results in the 1% paying their fair share. It doesn't take Milton Friedman to realize that the ultra wealthy haven't paid their dues at the expense of the impoverished & working/middle class.

As soon as you exclude anything from a flat tax you are moving to a progressive tax.

And the middle class is right to complain about their taxes being raised while the taxes on the wealthy are being cut. The rate of change on inequality in the US sky high as it is, and the rich keep getting richer here while the rest of the nation loses more and more buying power as a result. No one should look at the US and the inequality as see a system that is working. Moving to a flat tax means the middle classes loses more money as taxes go up while the rich get more money from a tax cut.

Wages on the over 60% of Americans have remained flat for 40 years after accounting for yearly increases in prices, while the top 1% of wages earners have doubled.  Productivity has skyrocketed but workers see none of the benefits from this.  Poverty grows each year and the US has more poverty than nearly any other developed country.  Intergeneration societal advancement continues to fall, so if you were born porn, it is very likely you remain poor all your life as wealth is concentrated to the top.

Finally, the more money the lower classes have the better it is for the US.  The wealthy generally move money out of the US into tax havens or move it into financial assets / funds to remove it from society and passively increase their wealth.  The lower classes spend that money on goods and services, creating economic growth.  Also the more money they have they less they will need government assistance, something more and more need each year as rising inequality forces more and more into poverty each year.  When remains remain flat, and prices increase every year, the poverty line will sweep more and more into under it.  

CEOs on earnings calls are telling shareholders they are engaging in pricing improvements and successful price strategies to increase their earnings. Companies that raised prices see their stocks increase, while those who have not are seeing their stocks fall. This does not sound like inflation. CEO summed it up on Fox Business. “Why give something away if you don’t have to, and you can have a bigger margin?” They are raising prices simply because people expect them to go up, including their shareholders.

newrepublic.com/article/164505/inflation-corporate-profiteering-biden-consumers

Nov 18, 2021 20:18:46 GMT c said:

As soon as you exclude anything from a flat tax you are moving to a progressive tax.

And the middle class is right to complain about their taxes being raised while the taxes on the wealthy are being cut. The rate of change on inequality in the US sky high as it is, and the rich keep getting richer here while the rest of the nation loses more and more buying power as a result. No one should look at the US and the inequality as see a system that is working. Moving to a flat tax means the middle classes loses more money as taxes go up while the rich get more money from a tax cut.

Wages on the over 60% of Americans have remained flat for 40 years after accounting for yearly increases in prices, while the top 1% of wages earners have doubled.  Productivity has skyrocketed but workers see none of the benefits from this.  Poverty grows each year and the US has more poverty than nearly any other developed country.  Intergeneration societal advancement continues to fall, so if you were born porn, it is very likely you remain poor all your life as wealth is concentrated to the top.

Finally, the more money the lower classes have the better it is for the US.  The wealthy generally move money out of the US into tax havens or move it into financial assets / funds to remove it from society and passively increase their wealth.  The lower classes spend that money on goods and services, creating economic growth.  Also the more money they have they less they will need government assistance, something more and more need each year as rising inequality forces more and more into poverty each year.  When remains remain flat, and prices increase every year, the poverty line will sweep more and more into under it.  

Well that is a nonsense...
It is akin to saying that any speed but stopped is 100mphr

You keep talking about the top 1% as if they're all billionaires lighting their cigars with $100 bills.



When people talk about the top 1% they are talking about the top 0.1%.
Is that shocking, that people earn $737k per year? Not to me.

I am over the outrage of others.
The entire Western way of life is built off the misery of low income economies.
The middle class has never had more because it has endlessly sought to earn in the West and spend in the far East.
This is a piece of elastic that can only stretch so far before breaking.
Since the second world war we have shifted manufacturing from:
Japan
Taiwan
Korea
China
India
Bangladesh / Philipines

Each time these countries use the appetites of the West to pay their workers nothing while they use the money to grow their economies into advanced manufacturing hubs that actually take the jobs of the workers who were so willing to buy their products a decade before.
Nobody ever talks about this, but the greatest threat to the US way of life in the long term, is the short term desire for consumerism.

You cannot escape this cycle, since WWII we just keep kicking the can down the street, but the game is broken and cannot work because we are almost at end when it comes to countries who can modernise through foreign investment and sweat shops.
The Western way of life will come to an end inside a couple of generations.
Especially when you couple this economic reality with the fact that people expect everything to fall in their lap now.

Nov 22, 2021 21:34:14 GMT c said:

CEOs on earnings calls are telling shareholders they are engaging in pricing improvements and successful price strategies to increase their earnings. Companies that raised prices see their stocks increase, while those who have not are seeing their stocks fall. This does not sound like inflation. CEO summed it up on Fox Business. “Why give something away if you don’t have to, and you can have a bigger margin?” They are raising prices simply because people expect them to go up, including their shareholders.

newrepublic.com/article/164505/inflation-corporate-profiteering-biden-consumers

You might want to do some research on what inflation is.
If prices are rising and people are still paying, this is what inflation is, those great profits you talk about will be rapidly consumed by the costs of the supply chain rising to reach the new prices.

As to the root causes on inflation:
In normal markets post-1980's the reserve banks have become very attuned to looking for inflation and gently pressing the interest rates brake pedal before we got a head of steam up.
Nobody is really looking to see another repeat of the 1980's boom and bust era.
Then we hit the GFC and rather than take our medicine, we made the bump in the road disappear with QE.
When the Covid pandemic hit we did the same thing again.

Most people don't realise it, but this is what the USA has created out of thin air in the past two years:



That's almost 9 Trillion dollars that the Fed Reserve has added to the economy, that's trillion with a "T" or $9,000,000,000,000
Let's compare that to the US levels of GDP:

The entire GDP of the USA in 2020 was 21 Trillion give or take.
So give or take, the ratio of QE to GDP is sitting around 20-25% this year...
Let's have a good think about that and what it means.
I am not entirely sure, but I know you cannot inject that much money into an economy and not have a risk of inflation.
Yes, it's been done before and it didn't cause the end of the free world.
But there is only so many times you can blow up a bubble until it bursts.

Is this that time? Nobody knows, but it has to happen eventually.

This is the future you want though. I mean this is GOP politics 101. Cut taxes, then give trillions to your donors while you personally take home billions to move offshore.

Nov 28, 2021 8:13:36 GMT c said:

This is the future you want though. I mean this is GOP politics 101. Cut taxes, then give trillions to your donors while you personally take home billions to move offshore.

When have you ever seen me cheer on corporate welfare? In this case I think that people needed to keep their jobs during Covid, but those payments are separate to QE.

6.8% The largest jump in 39 years.

I remember they dark days of burning money for warmth in the 1980's.

This was expected and come from price increases that were set up in motion two years back at the start of the pandemic mixed with the chip shortage skyrocketing the price of the auto market. Inflation was expected to be around 7 so now that it is reported at being around 7 not sure why it is news really. Historically 7 is not that high and will be brought down again when the interest rate hikes hit.

Dec 12, 2021 8:00:41 GMT c said:

I remember they dark days of burning money for warmth in the 1980's.

This was expected and come from price increases that were set up in motion two years back at the start of the pandemic mixed with the chip shortage skyrocketing the price of the auto market. Inflation was expected to be around 7 so now that it is reported at being around 7 not sure why it is news really. Historically 7 is not that high and will be brought down again when the interest rate hikes hit.

QE is at 20% of GDP it's not a mystery how we got here.
7% inflation is not low by any standard except those extracted desperately from someone's anus.

The reason why Central banks keep a lid on inflation is to avoid the boom and bust cycle of the 80s and before that.
I'm of the long held opinion that the train is only just clearing the peak and picking up speed, not sure it can be slowed without detailing as we have wild debt fuelled speculation and an economy on life support beneath it.

I don't care one way or the other about the infrastructure bill, but it is inflationary, the government is going to end up with one foot on the brake and the other on the accelerator

Inflation for most of US history was at 15% to 20%. We dropped in the 80's with reserve rate increases. Same grifters there during Trump are there with Biden and want that free credit flowing. Once the rate changes inflation will slow. Historically this has been the case, the spike in inflation in the 70's was spurred by cheap credit as well. Jacked the reserve rates up and cheap money stopped flowing to businesses and inflation died down. Now we drop it to 0 and are shocked to see interest rates skyrocket again.

Passing the social infrastructure bill will do nothing to change cheap credit in the US. Nor will not passing it as the past year has shown. The bill does not have 51 votes, is unpassable and Manchin wants to wait until the GOP has the majority to pass it.

The US just crossed 7% inflation, but the real cost is much higher.
This is about the time c says that inflation is a good thing and we all roll onto our backs so he can rub our belly.


Its looking grim... Belly rubs aside.

Profits for S&P 500 companies up 49% last year. Most of this money was spent to repurchase stock and pay dividends to investors.

I would say bellyrubs are due all around!!!

This is all a lie with numbers going up in the stock market. Every stock I know of is down major from a few months ago.

S&P 500 is up 1000 points for 2021. Biden ushering in an era of economic prosperity.

The killer of memes.

Jan 13, 2022 22:45:22 GMT c said:

Profits for S&P 500 companies up 49% last year. Most of this money was spent to repurchase stock and pay dividends to investors.

I would say bellyrubs are due all around!!!

We have essentially free credit, what could be driving the rise in the S&P 500... Hmmm... A real head-scratcher I tells ya.

They should always have free credit. Businesses are job creators use that money to grow the economy. Nothing matter more than a strong economy.