Dec 16, 2021 3:50:42 GMT 🤯 said:

Dec 16, 2021 3:48:57 GMT pduh said:

Beside the world title match you didn’t really missed anything much 

Did Daniel Bryan win? If not, then @whocares

He didn't not win.

It was no Walter v Dragunov.

It was an excellent match that could have been MOTYC had the outcome not been so blindingly obvious. This is a booking weakness that Tony Khan quickly needs to address. There's no jeopardy in these matches because everyone knows what's going to happen. It took away from this, from Page/Omega and from Danielson/Omega. With that said, this was a very high level match that just fell down a bit in the last 5 minutes. I didn't like Page stealing the head kicks because he can't do them properly, and the final sequence wasn't that well done either. Everything up to that point I loved. Very good match.

A question for you guys. I've seen a lot of defending of the booking online and people saying 'Vince would have done a DQ, this was much better'. Why is a draw any different to a DQ or a count-out? Aren't they all cop-out finishes that allow the booker to protect both guys?

Dec 16, 2021 11:34:41 GMT Todd said:

A question for you guys. I've seen a lot of defending of the booking online and people saying 'Vince would have done a DQ, this was much better'. Why is a draw any different to a DQ or a count-out? Aren't they all cop-out finishes that allow the booker to protect both guys?

In a vacuum, draws, DQ's and count-outs are all cop outs. But not the way these two companies do them, they are different. 

Frequency - There have been a total of 8 time limit draws in AEW history. I believe there has been max 3 DQ's or double count outs. Other than that, matches in AEW end with a finish (submission or pin). WWE, there is a significantly higher amount of non finishes - count outs, dq's. Sorry, I'm not going to even pretend to count the amount. When something happens less often, it feels more special. 

Method of non finish - But actually, a time limit draw is not the same as a DQ/count out (especially the way WWE does them). The premise of wrestling is two guys fighting to try and beat each other, the wrestler should therefore WANT to win. A time limit draw in AEW, or NWA of times past, was two guys who wanted, and were clearly trying to win, but they just couldn't best each other. In WWE, it not uncommon to have a match go for awhile, and then the heel just arbitrarily does something (grabs a weapn of some sort) and in full view of the ref does something to get disqualified. Seemingly, the wrestler no longer wanted to win, the premise of wrestling was no longer present. Sure, wrestlers will get mad at each other and their pals will interfere or try and get an advantage; in AEW we've seen many a time where inner circle and the pinnacle interfere, but there is still a finish, and the purpose of the interference was always driven around trying to get a win. In WWE matches that include interference end in DQ, and the wrestlers rarely seem to care, the primary premise of wrestling, winning and losing, doesn't seem to matter to the participants. My absolute least favourite WWEism is the walkaway count out. When the bad guy, after participating in the match for a reasonable amount of time, just leaves. He just stopped wanting to win??? After wrestling for several minutes??? Or then their is the count out style of the good guy just getting so worked up chasing the bad guy around the ring, or outside in the crowd, he can't hear the ref counting and gets counted out. 

In AEW, (other than the one time Omega interfered in Pac/Cassidy as an audible due to injury) draws are about two wrestlers who are actively wanting to win, but couldn't. In WWE, it is very often the case that someone wrestler seemingly decided to no longer care about winning? 

Dec 16, 2021 13:09:52 GMT nazzer said:

Dec 16, 2021 11:34:41 GMT Todd said:

A question for you guys. I've seen a lot of defending of the booking online and people saying 'Vince would have done a DQ, this was much better'. Why is a draw any different to a DQ or a count-out? Aren't they all cop-out finishes that allow the booker to protect both guys?

In a vacuum, draws, DQ's and count-outs are all cop outs. But not the way these two companies do them, they are different. 

Frequency - There have been a total of 8 time limit draws in AEW history. I believe there has been max 3 DQ's or double count outs. Other than that, matches in AEW end with a finish (submission or pin). WWE, there is a significantly higher amount of non finishes - count outs, dq's. Sorry, I'm not going to even pretend to count the amount. When something happens less often, it feels more special. 

Method of non finish - But actually, a time limit draw is not the same as a DQ/count out (especially the way WWE does them). The premise of wrestling is two guys fighting to try and beat each other, the wrestler should therefore WANT to win. A time limit draw in AEW, or NWA of times past, was two guys who wanted, and were clearly trying to win, but they just couldn't best each other. In WWE, it not uncommon to have a match go for awhile, and then the heel just arbitrarily does something (grabs a weapn of some sort) and in full view of the ref does something to get disqualified. Seemingly, the wrestler no longer wanted to win, the premise of wrestling was no longer present. Sure, wrestlers will get mad at each other and their pals will interfere or try and get an advantage; in AEW we've seen many a time where inner circle and the pinnacle interfere, but there is still a finish, and the purpose of the interference was always driven around trying to get a win. In WWE matches that include interference end in DQ, and the wrestlers rarely seem to care, the primary premise of wrestling, winning and losing, doesn't seem to matter to the participants. My absolute least favourite WWEism is the walkaway count out. When the bad guy, after participating in the match for a reasonable amount of time, just leaves. He just stopped wanting to win??? After wrestling for several minutes??? Or then their is the count out style of the good guy just getting so worked up chasing the bad guy around the ring, or outside in the crowd, he can't hear the ref counting and gets counted out. 

In AEW, (other than the one time Omega interfered in Pac/Cassidy as an audible due to injury) draws are about two wrestlers who are actively wanting to win, but couldn't. In WWE, it is very often the case that someone wrestler seemingly decided to no longer care about winning? 

Brilliant explanation.

Dec 16, 2021 13:11:37 GMT Todd said:

Dec 16, 2021 13:09:52 GMT nazzer said:

In a vacuum, draws, DQ's and count-outs are all cop outs. But not the way these two companies do them, they are different. 

Frequency - There have been a total of 8 time limit draws in AEW history. I believe there has been max 3 DQ's or double count outs. Other than that, matches in AEW end with a finish (submission or pin). WWE, there is a significantly higher amount of non finishes - count outs, dq's. Sorry, I'm not going to even pretend to count the amount. When something happens less often, it feels more special. 

Method of non finish - But actually, a time limit draw is not the same as a DQ/count out (especially the way WWE does them). The premise of wrestling is two guys fighting to try and beat each other, the wrestler should therefore WANT to win. A time limit draw in AEW, or NWA of times past, was two guys who wanted, and were clearly trying to win, but they just couldn't best each other. In WWE, it not uncommon to have a match go for awhile, and then the heel just arbitrarily does something (grabs a weapn of some sort) and in full view of the ref does something to get disqualified. Seemingly, the wrestler no longer wanted to win, the premise of wrestling was no longer present. Sure, wrestlers will get mad at each other and their pals will interfere or try and get an advantage; in AEW we've seen many a time where inner circle and the pinnacle interfere, but there is still a finish, and the purpose of the interference was always driven around trying to get a win. In WWE matches that include interference end in DQ, and the wrestlers rarely seem to care, the primary premise of wrestling, winning and losing, doesn't seem to matter to the participants. My absolute least favourite WWEism is the walkaway count out. When the bad guy, after participating in the match for a reasonable amount of time, just leaves. He just stopped wanting to win??? After wrestling for several minutes??? Or then their is the count out style of the good guy just getting so worked up chasing the bad guy around the ring, or outside in the crowd, he can't hear the ref counting and gets counted out. 

In AEW, (other than the one time Omega interfered in Pac/Cassidy as an audible due to injury) draws are about two wrestlers who are actively wanting to win, but couldn't. In WWE, it is very often the case that someone wrestler seemingly decided to no longer care about winning? 

Brilliant explanation.

Cheers, but as you said. I too would have preferred a decisive finish. Page getting that last buckshot in 10 seconds earlier for an under the wire pin. Yes please. But I sat at work doing nothing for an hour watching that match uninterrupted. I'm ok. 

Apparently I was the only one who didn't see the time limit draw coming. That's fine. More suspenseful for me.

When it was the opening match I knew it would go long (30 minute plus) but didn't think it would be close to an hour. Didn't even know there was a time limit until it was announced with 5 minutes to go. Then of course the time limit draw entered my head but the possibility was still there that Hangman could pull it off. When he hit the Buckshot I thought he would win with seconds to go, but it was not to be.

I didn't view it as a cop-out at all, but that's perhaps because I didn't see it ocming from the start. When you suspect it's happening your whole view changes. I think it's fine. Danielson has been invincible so far and clearly it would take a humongous effort to beat him. Ditto for the reborn Hangman Page. Sets up a rematch on PPV too!

As for the match itself, there were a couple of sections that dragged but mostly it was excellent. Smart psychology throughout. Danielson playing the mindgames at the start, then switching his target of attack as events happened. Hangman wrestling purely reactionary, clearly outmatched mentally, but used his heart and explosivity to stay in the match. Also showed some wrestling IQ late in the match when he stared attacking Danielson's leg. Everything mattered and all the limb work was significant right until the very end. Hangman stealing Danielson's "kick his head in" was great on paper, but as Todd pointed out the execution kinda killed it. Minor damper but the Buckshot at the end was huge.

Even though he didn't win the match, he proved that Danielson can be survived, can be beaten, and so far Hangman is the only one capable of doing it.

Brilliant work.

Omega also survived Bryan. I like draws but prefer 30 minutes draws. Hour draws have their place, and it makes a ton of sense to draw here as Bryan is making Hangman look amazing.

Commentary played their part very well too, as Hangman stalled setting up the last Buckshot, and those seconds could have cost him the win as he was one move away from winning.

Now we get to see this match again, which is the real appeal of draws, it basically gives a reason for a rematch. And not a straight rematch either, as both men know if they want to win, they cannot just do what they did the first time.

Maybe I'm an idiot but if I'm booking the show I put Page/Danielson on for the last hour instead of the first. AEW has ALWAYS had title matches go on last. If there's a title match on the card, it's the main event. Has been that way the whole time, and they rank the titles in order of importance: World, Women's, TNT, Tag, FTW.

As soon as Danielson's music hit I was like "the balls on these mother fuckers. Hour long draw on TV." I thought it was amazing, but like many have said the finish was obvious almost from the get go.

Then the rest of the show felt lackluster in comparison. The main event fell flat and got almost no reaction, and the only other match that managed to grab the crowd was Deeb/Shida.

Why not kick off with Deeb/Shida because you know you're getting a solid 15-20 minute banger out of them, do whatever else you want, then at 9pm you get the big announcement that the title match is a 60 minute time limit or TV time remaining. It feels way more suspenseful especially in those final moments when you're looking at the clock, the two guys in the ring, wondering what the fuck is going to happen, then bam. Bell rings, announcers are freaking out, roll credits and get the fuck outta there.

RT, if you did all the announced matches in the first hour, and then started the title match with an hour to go, wouldn't that ruin the ending a bit?

Agree it was a weird way to book the show putting the title match first, but don't buy the argument that it makes the finish less obvious, as nazzer said.

Dec 17, 2021 18:03:51 GMT nazzer said:

RT, if you did all the announced matches in the first hour, and then started the title match with an hour to go, wouldn't that ruin the ending a bit?

Agreed. Starting the match with an hour to go would be a much bigger giveaway of a time limit draw than it being the opener, when it could easily go for 30-40 minutes and still be a long title match.

Good call. Hmm. They kind of shoot themselves in the foot no matter what because they always announce the main event too.

And you can’t really announce a match as a fake out either. Stick X vs Y on the card just for the sake of having Excalibur announce 45 mins into the title match that “X vs Y is no longer happening and will instead be on Rampage due to this match going long.” That’s kinda cheesy.

Either way would have been bad the only good way I could see would require some network assistance. Start the match at 30 minutes before the show normally ends so people would assume it will end at the normal time. Then close to the end of the show have the announcers say like they got permission from the network to stay on for this fight. Fans will think ok so this definitely will have an ending. They bring up the title match time limit announcement close to the end.

Ordinarily this would be a huge problem but it's Bryan Danielson, who is going to be upset with watching Danielson in his element working another long match? If anything I think it justified Page's sabbatical and turned into a much better defence than let's say an Adam Page vs. Lance Archer would have been.

The only potential blemish is that for the time being it takes away from Danielson/Omega but in six months time you can make the feud about something else and the draw just becomes a nice detail that can be brought up to help flesh it out instead of the driving force.

I haven't really seen too many broadways before on TV. I just missed out on the infamous Austin Aries/Seth Rollins from ROH which pissed the fans off because they actually didn't go 60 minutes. However I did see Jay Lethal vs. Roderick Strong when Roddy was being pushed as the best in-ring worker in the world and by the time the match hit the 40 minute you could feel all the energy drain out of the crowd. They desperately wanted to be surprised but once it hit 60 it just felt so uncomfortable for everyone since both guys worked an absolute clinic...but fans just wanted a result.

As nazzer has pointed out before, AEW starting off with it's strongest match on TV is just a quirk of the company. At first it seemed to be about going head to head with NXT but I think the lack of commercial breaks and giving the fans action right out of the gate instead of a 20 minute promo is just their way of standing out. I think it definitely backfires on occasion as the rest of the show cannot live up to it and it sort of becomes like the final hour of Wrestlemania X-8 but in time as the talent improves you'd hope it would be less of an issue.

As a traditionalist, it definitely throws me from time to time because I love the suspense and anticipation. However, TK is obviously trying to avoid an nWo situation where one storyline is clearly more valued than another. That's where the something for everyone mentality kicks in and allows them to rotate their talent more freely.

Dec 18, 2021 0:56:53 GMT Big Pete said:

Ordinarily this would be a huge problem but it's Bryan Danielson, who is going to be upset with watching Danielson in his element working another long match? If anything I think it justified Page's sabbatical and turned into a much better defence than let's say an Adam Page vs. Lance Archer would have been.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I loved every second of that match and would take that match 10/10 times regardless of the outcome feeling obvious or not.