Jul 26, 2022 17:36:46 GMT c said:

Tony Khan said offer still stands to open the final forbidden door. And again, WWE should take it. Imagine Wrestlemania being Mox vs Reigns?

No thanks, I remember the invasion storyline. I don't want to relive it again.

Jul 26, 2022 17:59:47 GMT Todd said:

It would be crazy for WWE to do that. There are some countries where WWE is wrestling and they don’t even know what AEW is. To introduce them to a competitor on their own platform would be business illiterate. And they don’t stand to gain anything from it. AEW fans are more open-minded, hence why they started watching AEW in the first place, so many will start to get back involved with WWE now anyway (and let’s be honest, most never left).

Tony Khan being interested isn’t a revelation, he would have to be the most idiotic person in the world to turn his nose up at a WWE collaboration.

On Moxley vs. Reigns, it sounds fine but nothing earth shattering. Punk vs. Reigns should be the main event of whatever hypothetical show this is.

Mox vs Reigns is the better match given the rivalry.  Also Mox would likely take the match happily without drama.  Punker, who knows.  

As for WWE, I am not saying they should bring in any old AEW talent and book them like a big shot, or even do a full crossover show.  But why not work out a deal with Tony to get Jericho back for a program?  Or DB?  Or Sting +1?  Or Miro.  These are not really AEW guys but WWE/WCW guys.  And all would likely go back to WWE for a few shows.  Only guy who may not is Punk.  

Or why not do Usos vs FTR and let WWE get a match of the year candidate on a PPV? 

Best of all, creative have nothing for you, hit up Tony and do a program there.  At least get you on TV somewhere while creative works up a new place for you.  Guys WWE has sitting at home are generating nothing for them, so why not let them showcase what WWE has to offer in AEW.  For guys you bring in you get the benefit of not needing a long term plan.  They come in, work, put over someone and vanish until you want them again.  Also it could allow WWE to do matches they want to happen but cannot air because of sponsors in AEW.  Want to do a crazy unsanctioned match angle, what better way than to do it in a different fed (who then happens to make the match available online for free).  

It is not about regaining old fans, but generating buzz that gets non-fans wondering what the hell everyone is talking about and using the best talent you can.  There are stories that can be told by working together that no one ever tried in prowrestling because of egos and REALLY crazy shit they can do that would be mindblowing.  Imagine MJF working a two year angle where he trashes AEW saying he is bigger than them and will be a WWE star that ends with him debuting in WWE and winning a match for a contract, seamlessly moving from AEW to WWE?  Or a WWE doing a losers leaves town match taking a dive at the end then cutting a promo that they are now All Elite.  They work together you could do without the 90 day shit for jumps between the feds, and just make wrestling must watch again as you literally never know who could show up where.

Jul 25, 2022 22:19:40 GMT c said:

Moreso if HHH opts to try to revive the idea of competitive brands.

Why does this repeatedly get mentioned as a good idea when it has only ever caused decrease in ratings?

It just ain't going to happen.

And there's arguably only two guys in AEW, WWE fans would want to see and that's Daniel Bryan and to a lesser extent CM Punk.

WWE fans never really took to Cesaro, Joe, FTR, Black, Rusev, Lee, Almas, Buddy, etc and Ambrose was really the distant third wheel in The Shield by the time he left. Hence, why they are in AEW and not in WWE.

And these are the guys you're going to use for a WWE v AEW crossover, not the Eddie Kingstons or Darby Allins or Orange Cassidys.

Those former WWE names, are trusted WWE trained performers. And that would be a big decider in any booking conversion between the two companies.

AEW should be AEW. The Sega to WWE's Nintendo. " Sega does, what NintenDONT " and revel in being an alternative.

Jul 26, 2022 21:33:51 GMT Kilgore said:

Jul 25, 2022 22:19:40 GMT c said:

Moreso if HHH opts to try to revive the idea of competitive brands.

Why does this repeatedly get mentioned as a good idea when it has only ever caused decrease in ratings?

Agreed. The keeping the brand split has been one of the worst ideas of the last 20 years.

Initially, yeah, it was great as the roster was benefiting from the WCW purchase, a host of returning talent, etc. And two distinct brands were formed.

Then, it became a diluted version of itself. You can argue, a ratings decline was inevitable with wrestling's pop culture relevancy already peaking and increased competition from reality television shows, and the rise of UFC - there's any number of factors.. but, what I'm suggesting is, potentially it may not have been so sharp and noticeable if WWE had maintained one single brand with it being an All-Star show.

This is why PPVs to this day are usually fun, it isn't polluted with filler and crap to kill 2 hours. Before the advent of DVR and now streaming, in the early 2000s - you had to sit through all the Kenzo Suzukis and Rene Duprees and Jillian Hall angles.. or you turned off. Which people did.

Nothing was worse than those brand split ppvs. Sure some early ones were pretty good... but then yeah you get those Charlie Haas singles matches.

Honestly, I didn't want to see most of those guys in WWE when they were there and I don't want to see them again (I'm not interested in watching AEW to see them either!)

People obviously liked Bryan and Punk (and Jericho I guess), but I really don't think the majority of WWE's audience would care if they never saw Rusev (the sex addict), Buddy Murphy (Rey's daughter's bf) or The Revival (guys who shave each other's backs partway through shows) ever again.

I think the actual number of people who'd want to see a WWE/AEW crossover is pretty small. A big part of AEW's (and its fans') identity is "WWE BAD", so why would all those people want to spend time and/or money watching a half-WWE show? WWE doesn't have the cool/hipster factor NJPW does, so it's really not going to draw them in.

Jul 26, 2022 22:05:16 GMT NATH45 said:

Jul 26, 2022 21:33:51 GMT Kilgore said:

Why does this repeatedly get mentioned as a good idea when it has only ever caused decrease in ratings?

Agreed. The keeping the brand split has been one of the worst ideas of the last 20 years.

Initially, yeah, it was great as the roster was benefiting from the WCW purchase, a host of returning talent, etc. And two distinct brands were formed.

Then, it became a diluted version of itself.

Agree with most of this, but even this is being too kind! When I first looked into the numbers I expected to see a short term bump in ratings because of intrigue, but there was not. So, it's a long term dilution of talent for basically nothing. There is zero short term gain.



Granted, ratings are going to go down after the WrestleMania sweet spot regardless, but looking at Raw ratings May 27-Setpember 7, so six weeks after the post-Wrestlemania Raw, not even counting expected dropoff, even that is a full ratings point dropoff. There is no argument that the brand split worked even in the short term.

(Also worth noting that final Smackdown rating of 3.7 was the Billy/Chuck wedding angle, so an anomaly, ratings went back to 3.3/3.4 range for the rest of the year, after being in the high 3's and 4's the first four months of the year.)



And the damage is does in the long run via dilution of talent almost goes without saying, but I'm not sure people realize the severity. Even with Raw bouncing back a little 2005/2006, it seems totally at the expense of Smackdown which went into a freefall. Which makes sense. If you try to bolster one half of the split, the other half is going to suffer greatly. It is so stupid for a company to to put self-imposed handicaps on their shows like this.



But what's even stupider is doing it again and expecting different results. 2016, they do it again, and once again, not even short term success for Raw (perhaps a little for Smackdown). But we know how the ratings continued to go in the following years, so can an argument be made that Smackdown having slightly better ratings in December than July was worth it in the long run?

It's really so fucking stupid.

On paper it's stupid. It's basically nostalgia for the Monday Night Wars, which most of the WWE audience wasn't alive for. And the people that were, remember the real thing! A manufactured version will never live up to their memories of the real thing. It serves no one. And damages both shows.

And in practice, it's stupid. It has failed at least two times already (wasn't there another recent one that also failed?). And still, people will always offer it as a viable solution.

The only benefit it could ever serve is live attendance, having two brands operating at the same time in different cities. But even that, the WWF already did that in the '80s. They had A and B house shows, sometimes a C show. Without diluting their television and pay per views. What a concept. 

That's what's finally turned me off. Too many years of them adding more hours with less substance and adding more PPV's, again with less substance. Nothing is/feels special anymore. There's lots of wrestlers I enjoy right now, but I couldn't care less about the product they are putting out and I finally decided I wasn't going to support it anymore. What's sad is I don't really miss it.

Jul 26, 2022 21:33:51 GMT Kilgore said:

Jul 25, 2022 22:19:40 GMT c said:

Moreso if HHH opts to try to revive the idea of competitive brands.

Why does this repeatedly get mentioned as a good idea when it has only ever caused decrease in ratings?

Because networks demand exclusive talent as part of the TV deals.  

The networks also want guys like Brock and Roman and not many of them to go around.

And on the week-on-week Monday Night Wars Kilgore, it really was an American-only experience.

The odds an international market had the two shows aligned perfectly against each other on opposite networks would be slim-to-none, especially in the late 1990s. So you're not experiencing that heighten sense of urgency that it reportedly, allegedly produced. So to the WWE global audience in 2022 ( in which a mere 1.7 million people in the US watch RAW, compared to an estimated 4 million in India for example ) the concept of " brand supremacy " means little - especially when it's two brands under the same banner. 

And look, if you're a logical, cost-cutting man like Nick Kahn, you would see the logic behind a smaller roster of higher profile talent = increased interest. 

The one thing that used to frustrate me back in the day, I was left wanting more. The segment was never long enough, or the worker was only on television for a few minutes. Today, it's almost too much of some people *cough*Nattie*cough*Corbin*

For shits & giggles, here is my " TV Roster " for RAW/Smackdown, the highlighted names would be my priority bookings each week. It's not to say other talent won't appear on television, but if you weren't on that list - you wouldn't make it to TV very often..

Main Event : 
Brock Lesnar
Cody Rhodes
Roman Reigns
Seth Rollins
Riddle
Randy Orton
Drew McIntyre
Bobby Lashley

Upper Card : 
AJ Styles
The Miz
Kevin Owens
Theory 
Dolph Ziggler
Sheamus
Shinsake Nakamura

Mid Card : 
Ciampa
Ezekiel
Omas w/ MVP
Robert Roode
Madcap Moss
Ricochet
Sami Zayn 
Happy Corbin

Special Attraction : 
Edge
John Cena
Logan Paul
Ronda Rousey

Tag Team Division : 
Street Profits
The Usos 
Alpha Academy
Los Mysterios 
Judgement Day
The New Day
The Brawling Brutes
Imperium 

Women's Division : 
Alexa Bliss
Asuka
Becky Lynch
Bianca Belair
Charlotte
Liv Morgan
Carmella
Rhea Ripley 
Sonya Deville

Jul 26, 2022 23:48:15 GMT c said:

Jul 26, 2022 21:33:51 GMT Kilgore said:

Why does this repeatedly get mentioned as a good idea when it has only ever caused decrease in ratings?

Because networks demand exclusive talent as part of the TV deals.  

I've only ever heard of Fox asking for this, and very recently. It's a ridiculous ask and should be scoffed at by the WWE. ESPN/ABC is never going to say no to the NBA because LeBron James will also appear on TNT. If the WWE painted themselves in a corner where this is expected of them now, that's their own fault. 

Jul 26, 2022 23:48:15 GMT c said:

Jul 26, 2022 21:33:51 GMT Kilgore said:

Why does this repeatedly get mentioned as a good idea when it has only ever caused decrease in ratings?

Because networks demand exclusive talent as part of the TV deals.  

I don't know, because the two biggest stars in wrestling ( Reigns & Lesnar ) seem to go anywhere. 

If WWE has a problem with it, though should not have promised them exclusive content that extends to characters. But they will get less cash as a result.

Probably weren't in a position to have much of a backbone.

Imagine the TV deal the WWE would get if they had great ratings.

What a nightmare.

Fightful Select provided details on what it's like working under Vince McMahon in WWE. Scripts would often be "filtered" to get his approval, he'd forget names and fail to recall feuds/programs, and would blow up at the most inconsequential things.

When asking those working in and near creative what they expected to change the most with Triple H in control, and one specifically said "recall of what we have and haven't done repeatedly. There were so many things that Vince insisted on doing that I'm pretty sure he didn't remember doing over and over again, even when people would tell him."

Explains the constant repeats. Just a few weeks ago, I was complaining about seeing the same angles/promos week in week out.

2hr Raw please

Clean out the jobbers and the brand split and I'd almost go back to watching

Jul 28, 2022 12:08:24 GMT iNCY said:

2hr Raw please

Clean out the jobbers and the brand split and I'd almost go back to watching

Emphasis on almost.

Jul 28, 2022 12:08:24 GMT iNCY said:

2hr Raw please

Clean out the jobbers and the brand split and I'd almost go back to watching

I’d love two hour Raw’s again but it’s USA who are wanting it. Maybe Trips/Steph/Nick can do something about it though, because it’s such a chore to watch with the way it’s paced.

I don't think the length would be as bad if there weren't so many replays and recaps.

The show starts with a replay of what happened the week before (or at the PPV). Then later in the show you get a replay of the opening segment. Then you see it again later. Then you see recaps of what happened on SmackDown. How many times do we need to be shown what happened earlier on the show?!

Add that on top of the endless ads for the next PPV or next week's NXT or the new documentary show on A&E or whatever and there's a lot of wasted time.

Three hours is definitely too long for a weekly show, but it's even worse when one of those hours is just stuff you only saw 10 minutes ago.

Sometimes it feels like you don't even need to watch the first two hours or Raw because everything will just be recapped in the last hour.

Something that frustrates me, Roman as Champion, he barely shows up, despite being a full time worker.

I know, I refer to the good old days too much.. to give you a polar opposite example, I remember seeing Austin defend that WWF belt about 5 times over 3 weeks at one point in 2001. And if he wasn't defending it, he was in the main event each RAW and Smackdown working his ass off.

Roman, might cut a promo. If we're lucky.

I'm curious to know what would have been the long-term plan for the title if RR didn't get hurt after WM. It doesn't seem like they had a plan.

It's like when Trish went out in 04. When you're the whole division..

I'm comfortable with a guy like Reigns being Champ during Wrestlemania season to sell tickets, but across the summer and leading into the new year, put the belt on someone like Styles, who can work pretty much anyone and carry the lesser PPVs.

You need the Title in the frame every match, or why watch.
For me it is going to come down to whether Triple H and Steph can keep their ugly mugs off the TV.

The best outcome for the WWE is that Triple H dies in a car accident.
I hate him with an all consuming passion.
He singlehandedly destroyed the WWE.
I can even pinpoint the exact moment I gave up on his bullshit and the product in general:





He is a shit stain on the tapestry of Pro Wrestling.

I am so glad we don't have red reps though...

I think if he can replicate half of what peak NXT 1.0 achieved in terms of booking, it will be a better show.

Jul 29, 2022 2:42:42 GMT NATH45 said:

I think if he can replicate half of what peak NXT 1.0 achieved in terms of booking, it will be a better show.

Isn't NXT 1.0 the mentor/mentee elimination gameshow that ultimately birthed Nexus?

Jul 29, 2022 12:20:04 GMT 🤯 said:

Jul 29, 2022 2:42:42 GMT NATH45 said:

I think if he can replicate half of what peak NXT 1.0 achieved in terms of booking, it will be a better show.

Isn't NXT 1.0 the mentor/mentee elimination gameshow that ultimately birthed Nexus?

The 1.5 Black and Gold brand then..