May 5, 2020 14:15:40 GMT Strobe said:

May 2, 2020 14:36:12 GMT 🤯 said:

- After Marty fucks up again and gets suspended again, we pivot to Bret/HBK for the IC title at WMIX. We run the ladder match they would've done had SummerSlam '92 been in DC instead of England. This will actually tie into the WMX ladder match, giving it more story... as HBK will win here.

This is obviously a major rebooking issue. You are keeping Shawn/Razor because of what it means, but it doesn't mean anything close to the same in a universe where it isn't the first, no matter how good it is. If someone did Bret/Shawn ladder at Mania IX, I don't see them going back to the well the next year.

May 2, 2020 14:36:12 GMT 🤯 said:

Let's tie in the Sherri angle still, with her seconding Bret. HBK debuts Luna to counter Sherri, and let's have the finish of the ladder match involve an interfering Luna tipping over the ladder after taking out Sherri just at Bret is about to reach the belt.

I like that it gives Bret an out, but Luna with Shawn was a poor fit, even if it was for one night. This scary looking woman with the Heartbreak Kid. If they had debuted Luna on TV before as someone mean and nasty that Shawn had found to specifically take out Sherri, fine. But when she just appeared at Mania as she did, it didn't work. She was such a perfect fit visually with Bammer.

May 2, 2020 14:36:12 GMT 🤯 said:

- Money, Inc. vs. Mega Maniacs is positioned as the co-main event and booked as the final match of WMIX due to Hogan politicking to send the fans home happy. This is my workaround to not jobbing Yoko in idiot fashion. Instead, here's what we do: Yoko more or less squashes Savage to win the title. Fuji directs Yoko to continue Banzai dropping Savage after the match less in celebration, more to send a message to the rest of the WWF. This is the penultimate match/segment of the show. The Mega Maniacs run out to the rescue, with Hulk notably big booting Yoko out of the ring. Money, Inc. bum-rush the ring though through the crowd --less to reinforce Yoko, more just to get the jump on the Mega Maniacs-- and we jump start the main event in wild fashion. I keep the same finish with Jimmy Hart flipping his jacket inside out and counting the pinfall, but don't reveal the Dusty Finish until RAW. Send the fans home happy thinking Hulk has just made history by winning his first ever tag title.

Hogan's return to the ring was the true selling point of this Mania so him main eventing works. I think you could do a Dusty Finish that doesn't make it as obvious as it was with Jimmy Hart. Even if he just happened to have a black and white striped inside of his jacket, why would he even think to turn it inside out in that moment?

Inner monologue of Jimmy Hart at WrestleMania IX, probably

"Oh hey baby. The Hulkster and the Barber baby. They have Money Inc. down for the count baby. But this referee is also out for the count baby. If only I could get my hands on a referee shirt baby. Then I would be able to count the fall baby. In all of my years of experience, there has been nothing to suggest that won't work baby. But wait baby. The inside of my jacket is black and white striped baby. And if I just turn it inside out and count the fall, the Mega Maniacs are gonna be the new champs baby. I know that the WWF doesn't use that style of referee shirt baby. But it will all be good baby. Baby."

It was a preposterously over-thought spot that didn't work and no one bought it. The idea that Hogan, most successful wrestler ever, would think he could win the title that way was ludicrous.

Re: The back-to-back ladder matches...
I don't think it's as much of a problem as you think. I feel like modern era WWE pivoting to the gimmick PPVs, having recurring TLC/Money in the Bank/Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royals at WrestleManias shows Vince isn't against turning a "good idea" into a tradition. And if you don't run any ladder matches between IX and X, it still feels special IMO... similar to how HIAC still felt special since we didn't really see it between October '97 and June '98 (forget that bullshit stuff on RAW).

I think it also potentially adds story for X that could be built on: Shawn was suspended as champ, still feels (rightfully so) he IS champ -- NOT interim IC champ Razor, and so challenges Razor to a match to unify their belts. The catch is, as a heel, to give himself the edge, Shawn says it should be "his specialty" a.k.a. a ladder match... there's only ever been one before, and Shawn won it, and he knows what the match type is like, and how it'll put Razor at a disadvantage being in such an unknown environment.

I don't know... I think there are workarounds to potentially run a ladder match at IX, and then again at X like real life and have it all work out well.


Re: Luna w/ Shawn...
Totally agree. I'm open to ideas if there are other workarounds for giving Shawn a kinda tainted win over Bret. OR... if we cheat and give ourselves Marty, I'm open to the idea of Shawn/Marty II at WMIX -- possibly still as a ladder match somehow? Then Shawn can get a clean win for all I care (in either match type). Another question... how early was Nash available to come in as Diesel? How much of a stretch would it be to have Diesel debut as Shawn's bodyguard at 'Mania to cost Bret?


Re: Jimmy Hart's "refereeing"...
First, I fucking LOVE your inner monologue for Jimmy. So spot on. Second, I mainly kept that booking because of the fun imagery. Here are some alternate thoughts: What if the Jimmy Hart turn isn't made official/obvious prior to 'Mania? What if we have a clearly conflicted Jimmy Hart dissociate with Money, Inc. but not officially join the Mega Maniacs yet... and instead he's named as special guest referee for the tag title main event at 'Mania? Both sides can play to Jimmy in the buildup. Mega Maniacs say they know Jimmy is a good man at heart and will prove it by being fair and square and calling things straight down the middle. Money, Inc. can simultaneously try to manipulate Jimmy and bully him... Jimmy can see the error of his recent ways and help ensure Money, In.c retains. If Jimmy does, there's a big payout in store for Jimmy. Blah blah blah.

I'm also good with a normal referee and just giving the win to Mega Maniacs straight up. Then have Yoko cost the Mega Maniacs the tag titles back to Money, Inc. en route to KOTR as buildup for both the world title and tag title matches. I could see a huge six-man pitting the Macho Mega Maniacs of Hogan, Beefcake, and Savage against Yoko and Money, Inc. as a ratings draw for early RAW.

May 5, 2020 14:56:09 GMT 🤯 said:

Re: The back-to-back ladder matches...
I don't think it's as much of a problem as you think. I feel like modern era WWE pivoting to the gimmick PPVs, having recurring TLC/Money in the Bank/Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royals at WrestleManias shows Vince isn't against turning a "good idea" into a tradition. And if you don't run any ladder matches between IX and X, it still feels special IMO... similar to how HIAC still felt special since we didn't really see it between October '97 and June '98 (forget that bullshit stuff on RAW).

I think it also potentially adds story for X that could be built on: Shawn was suspended as champ, still feels (rightfully so) he IS champ -- NOT interim IC champ Razor, and so challenges Razor to a match to unify their belts. The catch is, as a heel, to give himself the edge, Shawn says it should be "his specialty" a.k.a. a ladder match... there's only ever been one before, and Shawn won it, and he knows what the match type is like, and how it'll put Razor at a disadvantage being in such an unknown environment.

I don't know... I think there are workarounds to potentially run a ladder match at IX, and then again at X like real life and have it all work out well.

I don't think there aren't workarounds. But I feel running the ladder match at Mania IX with Bret/HBK could seriously impact on how that match was treated going forwards. They likely would've had an excellent match, possibly considered an all-time classic, and then I could see the second ladder match being kept for them in a rematch down the line. Both are clearly heading for World Title territory so I could see Ladder Match II being them for the big title in 1994 or 1995. If Bret, who brought the ladder match idea from Stampede, gets to be in the first ladder match shown on TV, at Mania no less, and if it was a classic, I could see him working hard internally to make everyone associate him, rather than Shawn, with the match type.

Remember, Shawn/Razor II just came out of nowhere really, simply because the first one had been such a classic. Shawn/Sid for the IC had already been announced for SummerSlam as the obvious feud now that Diesel/Sid had wrapped up (Sid turned on HBK on the post-Mania RAW and he and Diesel became pals again). But since KOTR had done the worst WWF buyrate ever and they had just made Gorilla Monsoon the new on-screen president, they decided to get him over in that position by just booking the ladder rematch a few weeks before the PPV. And his kayfabe reason was because the first was the "greatest IC title match ever" and he thought it would be another classic, even though Shawn would be pissed to not get to face Sid. That shows the legacy and importance of that match. When they wanted to try to help buys, they genuinely just booked it to be a great match and presented it on TV as such.

May 5, 2020 14:56:09 GMT 🤯 said:

Re: Luna w/ Shawn...
Totally agree. I'm open to ideas if there are other workarounds for giving Shawn a kinda tainted win over Bret. OR... if we cheat and give ourselves Marty, I'm open to the idea of Shawn/Marty II at WMIX -- possibly still as a ladder match somehow? Then Shawn can get a clean win for all I care (in either match type). Another question... how early was Nash available to come in as Diesel? How much of a stretch would it be to have Diesel debut as Shawn's bodyguard at 'Mania to cost Bret?

Not possible unfortunately. Nash's last match in WCW was June 3rd and his first appearance as Diesel was 3 days later to help Shawn win the title back on a house show. It does seem hard to just drop Sherri out of things - she would still be trying to hurt HBK. You could have her want to accompany Bret to ringside and he wants nothing to do with it after she cost Marty at the Rumble. She comes out late on anyway and accidentally fucks up, costing Bret the match.

Maybe Luna (debuting with Bammer after Mania) starts bullying her about being such a useless manager and costing people matches. Sherri says maybe Luna is right, maybe she has lost her touch as a manager, and she needs to return to the ring... to face her! Sherri attacks Luna but Bammer gets involved and we get the worrying image of Bigelow threatening Sherri until whoever he is feuding with or going to be feuding with saves the day. Let's just say it is Tatanka, like in reality. Then Tatanka says he doesn't want a manager, but he could do with... a partner! So you've set up Bammer/Luna vs. Tatanka/Sherri for KOTR. That takes Bigelow out of the tournament (where he is well-suited) and we have a limited number of non-tourney matches, so maybe that doesn't work and you need to drag it out until SummerSlam. Just don't get rid of Sherri in July like Vince did in reality.

May 5, 2020 14:56:09 GMT 🤯 said:

Re: Jimmy Hart's "refereeing"...
First, I fucking LOVE your inner monologue for Jimmy. So spot on. Second, I mainly kept that booking because of the fun imagery. Here are some alternate thoughts: What if the Jimmy Hart turn isn't made official/obvious prior to 'Mania? What if we have a clearly conflicted Jimmy Hart dissociate with Money, Inc. but not officially join the Mega Maniacs yet... and instead he's named as special guest referee for the tag title main event at 'Mania? Both sides can play to Jimmy in the buildup. Mega Maniacs say they know Jimmy is a good man at heart and will prove it by being fair and square and calling things straight down the middle. Money, Inc. can simultaneously try to manipulate Jimmy and bully him... Jimmy can see the error of his recent ways and help ensure Money, In.c retains. If Jimmy does, there's a big payout in store for Jimmy. Blah blah blah.

I'm also good with a normal referee and just giving the win to Mega Maniacs straight up. Then have Yoko cost the Mega Maniacs the tag titles back to Money, Inc. en route to KOTR as buildup for both the world title and tag title matches. I could see a huge six-man pitting the Macho Mega Maniacs of Hogan, Beefcake, and Savage against Yoko and Money, Inc. as a ratings draw for early RAW.

Personally, I'd always rather keep Jimmy Hart away from Hulk Hogan as an on-screen ally, but if Hogan insists, then having Jimmy being unsure heading into Mania works. He is the manager of the tag champs but he cannot stand by them attacking broken-face Beefcake as they did. But managing the champs makes him so much money and there could be an additional payout? Big dilemma.

You could even do a real asshole Dusty Finish. After leaving it in doubt until the day of the show, Jimmy Hart accompanies the Mega-Maniacs to the dismay of the heels (gets a nice visual of the heels going mad, kicking the ropes and the like). The match ends with Jimmy stopping I.R.S. using the briefcase and Hogan gets the pin for the win and the titles. The next night on RAW, Money Inc. claim that Jimmy Hart did not apply for a new manager's license to be in the corner of Hogan/Beefer and hence the title change is not legitimate. Jack Tunney(!) regrettably agrees with their interpretation and the win is annulled.

Is the simplest fix to just avoid returning to Bret/Shawn at WMIX?

Shawn, having just been pinned or submitted clean by Bret at Survivor Series in a non-title contest, is a little shaken, clearly insecure, and has ZERO INTEREST in facing Bret again with his title on the line.

Plus, Shawn also has a vengeful Marty back in the picture suddenly. Who knows what kind of wild card that could be for his title defense plans. It's bad enough Marty has somehow leapfrogged the line to get a title shot at the Rumble.

Meanwhile, Bret is content to focus on bigger and better pursuits than chasing Shawn... Like winning the Royal Rumble. Plus, anyway, Bret has been a multi time IC Champion by this point now and has proven he's better than Shawn... So there's nothing more left in that rivalry at this point for him.

Bret gets a decent credential by becoming runnerup in the Rumble. Maybe he's the Iron Man too?

Bret continues his gradual ascent up the proverbial ladder with a transitional feud against recent world title challenger Razor Ramon at WrestleMania. Feud is born out of frustrated Razor (frustrated by his loss to Savage) taking issue with Hitman cosplaying as a "bad guy". Bret doesn't know what bad is. In typical bully fashion, Razor goes after Bret by targeting baby brother Owen. Bret sticks up for his brother and stands up to Razor. Seeds for Bret/Owen planted. If Razor injures his knee before WrestleMania as in reality, Bret is the prefect ring general with the perfect finisher to work it all into the story and maybe even make the match better because of it.

Razor's clean loss at WMIX to Bret continues a trend of high profile losses setting him up to snap when the 1-2-3 Kid upsets him later in May.

Meanwhile, maybe we hold out hope for a Shawn/Marty rematch at WMIX for the IC belt. Perhaps we toy with the ladder in our minds, but ultimately it's all for naught. Marty is too fucked up to come back in time to work a Mania program. So instead, stick with real life plans where Tatanka's undefeated streak and recent pinfall over Shawn in multi man action make him de facto number one contender. Only difference is I consider maybe putting the belt on Tatanka to have a face champ to counterbalance Yoko.

May 8, 2020 0:46:56 GMT 🤯 said:

Is the simplest fix to just avoid returning to Bret/Shawn at WMIX?

Shawn, having just been pinned or submitted clean by Bret at Survivor Series in a non-title contest, is a little shaken, clearly insecure, and has ZERO INTEREST in facing Bret again with his title on the line.

Plus, Shawn also has a vengeful Marty back in the picture suddenly. Who knows what kind of wild card that could be for his title defense plans. It's bad enough Marty has somehow leapfrogged the line to get a title shot at the Rumble.

And you don't need Marty to leave either. This isn't like 1992 where he assaulted a copper and was under house arrest. Shawn ratted him out for being fucked up the night after the Rumble, when apparently he wasn't even, and he was chucked because of it. No problems running Shawn/Marty again at Mania IX.

May 8, 2020 0:46:56 GMT 🤯 said:

Meanwhile, Bret is content to focus on bigger and better pursuits than chasing Shawn... Like winning the Royal Rumble. Plus, anyway, Bret has been a multi time IC Champion by this point now and has proven he's better than Shawn... So there's nothing more left in that rivalry at this point for him.

Bret gets a decent credential by becoming runnerup in the Rumble. Maybe he's the Iron Man too?

Bret continues his gradual ascent up the proverbial ladder with a transitional feud against recent world title challenger Razor Ramon at WrestleMania. Feud is born out of frustrated Razor (frustrated by his loss to Savage) taking issue with Hitman cosplaying as a "bad guy". Bret doesn't know what bad is. In typical bully fashion, Razor goes after Bret by targeting baby brother Owen. Bret sticks up for his brother and stands up to Razor. Seeds for Bret/Owen planted. If Razor injures his knee before WrestleMania as in reality, Bret is the prefect ring general with the perfect finisher to work it all into the story and maybe even make the match better because of it.

I wonder if they could've gotten Bret to feel like a legit World Champion for a coronation at Mania IX. The World Title win was just so sudden and being on a house show hurt. He had beaten Piper at Mania VIII and the SummerSlam match was seen as a classic off the bat. He was clearly ready to move up but needed to be put with the main eventers and get some big wins to lead to the title. If you were trying to, you probably stick him in Warrior's place at Survivor Series. Bret/Savage vs. Flair/Ramon and he gets the fall over Ramon. Then you can build to Bret/Flair at Mania. Or if Flair is still adamant to leave, you run Savage/Flair at the Rumble to get the belt on Macho. Bret wins the Rumble, with a long stint, say 30 mins. So you have either Bret/Flair or Bret/Savage with Bret winning the title. You could even have Bret send Flair packing. I think this could work.

Survivor Series: Bret takes Warrior's place and gets the pin over Razor or maybe even Flair. A pinfall over the champ establishes him as a big threat and I'm leaning towards doing that and protecting Razor.
Royal Rumble: Macho beats Flair for the gold after Bret stops Perfect interference. Bret lasts over half an hour in the first Rumble with Mania title shot on the line and it comes down to Bret/Razor. Flair comes out to try to cost Bret, like Bret had cost him, but Macho evens the odds and Bret eliminates Razor to win. Flair is livid and we get Bret/Macho in the ring to end the night, the two men due to now clash at Mania.
RAW: Flair worked through to February 10, so he could work the RAW tapings after the Rumble. Flair is pissed and claims he should be the #1 contender. Bret agrees to put it on the line if Flair agrees to leave the WWF if he loses. Bret beats Flair to the dismay of Mr. Perfect, who has lost his meal ticket.
Mania IX: Bret beats Savage and gets the Piper moment again a year later with a legend placing the belt around his waist.
King of the Ring: Bret beats a returning-to-the-ring heel Perfect while Razor, still not yet pinned or submitted, wins the KOTR and becomes #1 contender. Have him beat Savage in the finals to properly end their deal in a PPV match.
SummerSlam: Bret hands a nicely built Razor his first proper defeat (excepting the Rumble). You've had all this time to build Yoko and he could be who Bret moves on to post-Summer.

May 12, 2020 22:35:29 GMT Strobe said:

May 8, 2020 0:46:56 GMT 🤯 said:

Is the simplest fix to just avoid returning to Bret/Shawn at WMIX?

Shawn, having just been pinned or submitted clean by Bret at Survivor Series in a non-title contest, is a little shaken, clearly insecure, and has ZERO INTEREST in facing Bret again with his title on the line.

Plus, Shawn also has a vengeful Marty back in the picture suddenly. Who knows what kind of wild card that could be for his title defense plans. It's bad enough Marty has somehow leapfrogged the line to get a title shot at the Rumble.

And you don't need Marty to leave either. This isn't like 1992 where he assaulted a copper and was under house arrest. Shawn ratted him out for being fucked up the night after the Rumble, when apparently he wasn't even, and he was chucked because of it. No problems running Shawn/Marty again at Mania IX.

May 8, 2020 0:46:56 GMT 🤯 said:

Meanwhile, Bret is content to focus on bigger and better pursuits than chasing Shawn... Like winning the Royal Rumble. Plus, anyway, Bret has been a multi time IC Champion by this point now and has proven he's better than Shawn... So there's nothing more left in that rivalry at this point for him.

Bret gets a decent credential by becoming runnerup in the Rumble. Maybe he's the Iron Man too?

Bret continues his gradual ascent up the proverbial ladder with a transitional feud against recent world title challenger Razor Ramon at WrestleMania. Feud is born out of frustrated Razor (frustrated by his loss to Savage) taking issue with Hitman cosplaying as a "bad guy". Bret doesn't know what bad is. In typical bully fashion, Razor goes after Bret by targeting baby brother Owen. Bret sticks up for his brother and stands up to Razor. Seeds for Bret/Owen planted. If Razor injures his knee before WrestleMania as in reality, Bret is the prefect ring general with the perfect finisher to work it all into the story and maybe even make the match better because of it.

I wonder if they could've gotten Bret to feel like a legit World Champion for a coronation at Mania IX. The World Title win was just so sudden and being on a house show hurt. He had beaten Piper at Mania VIII and the SummerSlam match was seen as a classic off the bat. He was clearly ready to move up but needed to be put with the main eventers and get some big wins to lead to the title. If you were trying to, you probably stick him in Warrior's place at Survivor Series. Bret/Savage vs. Flair/Ramon and he gets the fall over Ramon. Then you can build to Bret/Flair at Mania. Or if Flair is still adamant to leave, you run Savage/Macho at the Rumble to get the belt on Macho. Bret wins the Rumble, with a long stint, say 30 mins. So you have either Bret/Flair or Bret/Savage with Bret winning the title. You could even have Bret send Flair packing. I think this could work.

Survivor Series: Bret takes Warrior's place and gets the pin over Razor or maybe even Flair. A pinfall over the champ establishes him as a big threat and I'm leaning towards doing that and protecting Razor.
Royal Rumble: Macho beats Flair for the gold after Bret stops Perfect interference. Bret lasts over half an hour in the first Rumble with Mania title shot on the line and it comes down to Bret/Razor. Flair comes out to try to cost Bret, like Bret had cost him, but Macho evens the odds and Bret eliminates Razor to win. Flair is livid and we get Bret/Macho in the ring to end the night, the two men due to now clash at Mania.
RAW: Flair worked through to February 10, so he could work the RAW tapings after the Rumble. Flair is pissed and claims he should be the #1 contender. Bret agrees to put it on the line if Flair agrees to leave the WWF if he loses. Bret beats Flair to the dismay of Mr. Perfect, who has lost his meal ticket.
Mania IX: Bret beats Savage and gets the Piper moment again a year later with a legend placing the belt around his waist.
King of the Ring: Bret beats a returning-to-the-ring heel Perfect while Razor, still not yet pinned or submitted, wins the KOTR and becomes #1 contender. Have him beat Savage in the finals to properly end their deal in a PPV match.
SummerSlam: Bret hands a nicely built Razor his first proper defeat (excepting the Rumble). You've had all this time to build Yoko and he could be who Bret moves on to post-Summer.

That's a super interesting alternative. What do you do with Hogan? Have Yoko kill Hulkamania at WMIX? Make him the monster to face Taker instead of Gonzalez? What do you do with Hogan post-WMIX? I feel like after sending Flair packing and then defeating Savage for the belt at Mania, defending the belt against Hogan at SummerSlam feels like the best option to cement Bret. Not sure if you feed Razor to Bret earlier or later then?

May 12, 2020 22:48:04 GMT 🤯 said:

That's a super interesting alternative. What do you do with Hogan? Have Yoko kill Hulkamania at WMIX? Make him the monster to face Taker instead of Gonzalez? What do you do with Hogan post-WMIX? I feel like after sending Flair packing and then defeating Savage for the belt at Mania, defending the belt against Hogan at SummerSlam feels like the best option to cement Bret. Not sure if you feed Razor to Bret earlier or later then?

Hogan is tough in this period. I don't think he is going to agree to job to Bret. You could just choose not to bring him back, because he is going to overshadow what you are doing and isn't going to be around for the long-term. But with business down, you can't turn down the chance to use Hogan really.

He did 3 tune-up Money Inc tags in March. Worked Mania only in April. 3 more Money Inc tags in May. 9 Money Inc tags surrounding the KOTR loss to Yoko in June. Then 8 Yoko matches in late July/early August on a farewell European tour prior to SummerSlam.

I wouldn't be against just using him in the Money Inc midcard tag at Mania as a nice buyrate boost and that being it. I don't see him agreeing to job to Yoko unless the title is involved. And keep him away from Bret, even if the idea is to try to sprinkle that Hulk Dust on him. Don't even have him talk about him. He'd just call him a Hulkamaniac like in reality and make him seem like a little kid.

Prichard does say that part of the thinking behind the double title switch was because, after the Grateful Dead had success with repeat PPV screenings, Mania IX was the first WWF PPV to have encore presentations. So it gave them something to push. "Hulk Hogan is the WWF Champion! Unbelievable! How did that happen? Check out the encore of WrestleMania to see for yourself". This is the sort of factor that can be forgotten about when talking about this stuff. I can certainly see the rationale.

May 12, 2020 23:09:14 GMT Strobe said:

May 12, 2020 22:48:04 GMT 🤯 said:

That's a super interesting alternative. What do you do with Hogan? Have Yoko kill Hulkamania at WMIX? Make him the monster to face Taker instead of Gonzalez? What do you do with Hogan post-WMIX? I feel like after sending Flair packing and then defeating Savage for the belt at Mania, defending the belt against Hogan at SummerSlam feels like the best option to cement Bret. Not sure if you feed Razor to Bret earlier or later then?

Hogan is tough in this period. I don't think he is going to agree to job to Bret. You could just choose not to bring him back, because he is going to overshadow what you are doing and isn't going to be around for the long-term. But with business down, you can't turn down the chance to use Hogan really.

He did 3 tune-up Money Inc tags in March. Worked Mania only in April. 3 more Money Inc tags in May. 9 Money Inc tags surrounding the KOTR loss to Yoko in June. Then 8 Yoko matches in late July/early August on a farewell European tour prior to SummerSlam.

I wouldn't be against just using him in the Money Inc midcard tag at Mania as a nice buyrate boost and that being it. I don't see him agreeing to job to Yoko unless the title is involved. And keep him away from Bret, even if the idea is to try to sprinkle that Hulk Dust on him. Don't even have him talk about him. He'd just call him a Hulkamaniac like in reality and make him seem like a little kid.

Prichard does say that part of the thinking behind the double title switch was because, after the Grateful Dead had success with repeat PPV screenings, Mania IX was the first WWF PPV to have encore presentations. So it gave them something to push. "Hulk Hogan is the WWF Champion! Unbelievable! How did that happen? Check out the encore of WrestleMania to see for yourself". This is the sort of factor that can be forgotten about when talking about this stuff. I can certainly see the rationale.

The bold is hard to totally swallow, at least with some of the lax liberties we allow ourselves with rebookings... because surely you can hype and peddle a replay even without ECW/Attitude Era-style swerves [BRO!!~]. Like, all you have to do is keep things vague/ominious/mysterious on that one episode of RAW post-Mania. No Yoko, no Bret, no Hogan... no commentary acknowledging who the champions are, just commentators discussing the unbelievable finish and plugging-plugging-plugging the Tuesday night replay. Then, post-replay, everyone can go hard all in on who the champs are.

After all my talk about no longer doing any sort of long-term booking because of all the issues that can crop up... well, fuck that for now as the talk about Sting in the Fav Wrestler thread has me thinking about him on top in the early 90s.

I think what is most frustrating about his run is that some of the grand scheme stuff in terms of opponents was great and really feels like it could’ve drawn, but plenty of poor decisions and timing issues went against it. Along with all the standard WCW incompetence.

Let's start with discussing some of the poor decisions that were made during this period:

- Has anyone ever heard why, after doing great business with Flair, Funk was removed as an in-ring act post-I Quit match? Just ended up doing commentary and an interview segment called Funk's Grill before leaving in early 1990.

- The Starrcade '89 Iron Man tournament in general, the beginning of turning Starrcade into a gimmick show. At it, they had Muta lose his undefeated record in 2 mins and then two further times on the night. No Flair/Muta PPV main that could’ve done business and Muta left shortly into 1990.

- Someone needed to slap Flair and tell him to just accept being face for a bit. He preferred being a heel so much that he would demand to be turned even when it was disadvantageous to him. Multiple times. People point to the Fingerpoke of Doom in 1999, but the next month face Flair vs. heel Hogan equalled the Starrcade 98 buyrate, only one week after Austin vs. Vince in a cage, itself only beating it by 25k PPV buys. The following month, face Flair vs. heel Hogan in a first blood cage rematch did the same buyrate as the stacked Havoc 98 and it was two weeks before a Mania that drew monstrously. But that cage match was a convoluted mess and they did a double turn that the fans didn’t want, because Flair wanted to be heel. In 1989, fans were loving being able to fully cheer Flair (he always received some cheers as a heel) and crowds were hot for the face Horsemen in early 1990. I’ve heard Arn say they were miscast at the time, which is bullshit. Him and Flair just preferred being heels. Fans wanted some time with face Flair and Horsemen. Doing so could’ve been positive in the short-term (in terms of drawing houses and TV ratings) and long-term (giving fans confidence that you give them what they want, so they give you more leeway when things go wrong).

- I agree with Cornette that there was an easy out for WCW to give to the Turner folks in regards to Tully and his failed drugs test with the WWF – that you are a compassionate company who gives second chances and is going to put this man through rehab. Tully as a singles and a team with Arn had been a draw for this company, was recently tag champion in the WWF and was a key component of the Horsemen. Since Tully as a face is a bad idea, the whole “we’ll bring him in after rehab” actually works perfectly for when you turn the Horsemen back heel.

- Turning Luger face, ending a great heel run, because they panicked after Sting got injured. But Luger could not win the title, so added to his failure in 1988, this established the idea of him as a choker.

- Completely dropping the great planned feud with Pillman and MX that would’ve led into Flair/Pillman and could’ve made Pillman as a top guy and even stronger ally for Sting.

- The Black Scorpion angle did actually pop some numbers in the initial stages, but it was a poor idea overall. Too campy, too long and the payoff was never going to be good. Fans got short-changed on face Horsemen and then got blue-balled on Lex winning the title again. Hardly the best environment for Sting to then win his first title in, even if the fans wanted it. Then he gets saddled with the Black Scorpion angle. During this angle, Flair moves to below the main event, which I don’t think fans really wanted to see either.

- In addition to the main matches, Starrcade ’90 featured another gimmick – the Pat O’Connor Memorial Tag Team Tournament. This featured some teams that the fans had never seen or heard of. This tournament was also where Muta was going to be making his first appearance since early Feb, which is a waste. Even if you assumed that the top seeds would make the final and you’d get Steiners vs. Muta + partner, that is not close to the same as a match being booked.

- Muta appeared at WrestleWar 91 to promote him and Sting at the Tokyo Dome for the WCW/NJPW Supershow, which is good, but I’m just putting it out there that there was a chance to have him promoted to do a match. Luger/Muta at Clash XV to determine the #1 contender for Flair’s title at GAB sounds fine on paper, but that is a potentially big-time match that could have done with proper build, been on PPV and gone over 4 minutes.

- Obviously the fiasco regarding the handling of Flair behind the scenes heading into the Great American Bash ’91 when he was still champion, leading to him being fired, stripped and the crowd at that show chanting “We Want Flair”. This led to the NWA Title becoming distinct from the WCW Title and that just watered things down.

- Starrcade ’91 was entirely the poor Battlebowl concept. 20 tag teams drawn at random in 10 “lethal lottery” tag matches. The 10 winning teams enter a battle royal at the end of the night. But it is a two-ring “Battlebowl” battle royal where everyone starts in the same ring and you are eliminated by being thrown into ring 2 first and then out of that ring. Needlessly convoluted. It was like they were trying to sabotage their name show. I can see some of the positives and intrigue to this idea, but you’d need to do this on a Clash or standalone TV special first to iron out the kinks and see if the fans took to it.

- WCW burned their dates on Luger’s contract in late 1991 without realising so they ended up with a champion who they couldn’t book in the build to the big Sting/Luger title change. The match also did not feel as big and significant as it could’ve because Sting was involved in multiple feuds while it was being set up (Rude/DA, Abby/Cactus), with the Luger one almost an after-thought. It is quite cool to have everyone gunning for Sting, but this was a match that should’ve been a big, big deal.

- Having Muta work a long TV match with Brad Armstrong in May 1992 when he should be getting kept strong and special in his limited appearances. Was this really their best idea for a rare Muta appearance?

- Starrcade ’92 was the fourth year in a row of getting Starrcade massively wrong. They ran a limited Battlebowl with 4 “lethal lottery” tags, but many of the guys in them were also in other matches, which hurts their specialness when multiple top guys are coming out multiple times and it means some need to lose after winning. Sting wins his tag, then beats Vader in the King of Cable final (when this is the match that should be ending Starrcade and be for the title, not a tournament that should’ve been kept on cable), but then has to be eliminated in the Battlebowl. Vader wins his tag, loses to Sting and then needs to be eliminated in the Battlebowl. Muta wins his tag, then beats Chono (Muta should be working matches against WCW talent, not other NJ wrestlers) and then wins Battlebowl, with the finish at least setting up his NWA Title match with Windham at SuperBrawl III.

- The booking of Sting on the NJPW Supershows was fine really, but we can discuss how we could do it differently in our rebooking.

Before we start this, let’s just assume that we hire competent people in the appropriate spots. When we advertise a show, we actually state the correct date. We pick towns that we actually will draw in, as opposed to just big cities/towns, and pick the appropriate nights to work them. We create good merchandise and promote it well. That sort of stuff.

So if we are picking up from Halloween Havoc ’89 (Flair/Sting vs. Funk/Muta Thunderdome; Luger vs. Pillman), then Flair vs. Funk should be the clear main event for Starrcade ’89. Sting vs. Luger has also been building and Starrcade is the ideal spot to do them for the US Title (as opposed to on TV close to Starrcade like in reality). Muta vs. Pillman could be a great workrate match. This will be the only card that I’ll discuss most of it, since it was pretty much set-up but the Iron Man tourneys got in the way.

Starrcade 1989
Flair(c) vs. Funk (NWA World Title)
Luger(c) vs. Sting (US Title)
Muta(c) vs. Pillman (TV Title)
Steiners(c) vs. Doom (Tag Titles vs. Masks)
Roadies vs. Skyscrapers (Chicago Street Fight)
MX vs. Dudes w/Cornette in neutral corner

Making it an “I Quit” match is up in the air for me, just because it did make sense that Gary Hart would chuck him after that. But I’d still be up for doing it and Hart standing by him. Luger retains through some shady means or do a non-finish. Muta retains and Pillman is kept in with the big boys. Steiners take Doom’s masks. If Sid gets injured in this reality, then just shift Mean Mark into his spot as happened. Since there is no Iron Man gimmick, the MX/Cornette return to being heels can be done on the big show rather than Clash IX.

Arn came back on TV a couple of weeks before Starrcade. With everything set up, I’d save that for post-Starrcade to give that boost to Flair/Sting vs. J-Tex as it now becomes Horsemen vs. J-Tex. I’m gonna stick with the idea of “legit” rehabbing Tully, allowing us to avoid having face Tully in the Horsemen. The Horsemen are Flair, Arn and Sting with Ole in a manager role as the fourth man for now. Funk is still here as an in-ring guy and Buzz Sawyer has come in to join J-Tex too, rather than replacing Funk as in reality. Clash X 6-man is Flair/Sting/Arn vs. Funk/Muta/Sawyer. This then gives us:

WrestleWar ‘90
Flair(c) vs. Muta (NWA World Title)
Sting vs. Funk
Luger(c) vs. Pillman (US Title)
Arn vs. Buzz

I don’t think Muta should’ve been made champion as has been mooted and he was always going to head back to New Japan, although he did so early because of his booking. I think they should’ve treated him well in big-time matches and after he went back, he could become a special attraction for years to come. He could’ve worked being turned face as well, but I have no problem keeping him a cool heel. Since we aren’t turning the Horsemen and if we have this plan, let’s say we can keep the maniac Buzz around a few months extra. He was great and I think fans would buy him in a PPV main. So, even though this is Arn’s first PPV match back, Buzz steals the win over him. In the Havoc ’89 rematch (so not run at Clash IX), Luger defends against Pillman. Sting beats Funk. Flair ends Muta’s undefeated streak in a big-time match but there can be some Horsemen/J-Tex stuff towards the end if we want to protect him.

Capitol Combat 1990 (or whatever name if we aren’t in DC)
Flair(c) vs. Buzz (NWA Title)
Muta(c) vs. Sting (TV Title)
Arn vs. Funk

This is the end of Funk as he puts over Arn. Sting beats Muta for the TV Title to allow Muta to head back to New Japan. I think some sort of finish where Arn/Ole prevent J-Tex interference but then also actively interfere against Muta without Sting’s knowledge works well. Muta is protected, Sting can mention on TV afterwards that he was happy with them stopping interference but would’ve preferred them to leave Muta to him and the Horsemen heel turn has been teased.

Just as a note, we run the full planned MX/Pillman feud that would’ve put him over well.

Now that we have given fans their chance to cheer the Horsemen for almost half a year, it is time to turn them. This extra time with Sting in the stable also makes the turn more impactful. Sting can be named the #1 contender by WCW and Flair/Arn/Ole expect him to turn it down, but he doesn’t. This means that Sting wasn’t actively asking to go against his pals, but he wants to test himself against Naitch since he has been picked.

Great American Bash 1990
Flair(c) vs. Sting (NWA World Title)

Face vs. face match and Sting is closing in on victory when the returning Windham saves Flair and we get a post-match beatdown by the Horsemen and Flair on the mic – “Sting, you never were a Horseman”. Flair thought he could beat Sting, but still is smart enough to have an insurance policy in case, in the form of big Barry.

With Barry replacing Sting and the Horsemen now heel, we can bring back Tully as well and we have a true Four Horsemen of in-ring performers with Ole still as the JJ. Arn/Tully are back as a team and can win the tag titles. Sting now works his way through each of the Horsemen in a 6-month quest to get Flair. As part of this the Horsemen cost him his TV Title in a match with Arn.

Halloween Havoc 1990
Flair(c) vs. Pillman (NWA World Title)
Sting vs. Windham

After what would have been a great MX angle/feud, Pillman is in an ideal spot to be a placeholder challenger for Flair before the Sting match. Sting gets revenge against the man who stopped him winning the title at GAB.

Starrcade 1990
Flair(c) vs. Sting (WCW World Title)
Arn/Tully(c) vs. Steiners (Tag Titles)

I understand why they wanted to put over Sting and Steiners big in 1989 because they could claim they were the singles and tag stars of the 90s, but this is the show to put them over on. The Steiners had only debuted as a team in mid-89. We could’ve put them over the Road Warriors on the May PPV before they left for the WWF and winning the belts again over Arn/Tully at Starrcade is the big defining moment.

They changed the World Title name from NWA to WCW with the Sting to Flair change in mid-Jan 1991. In this rebooking, this is the perfect time to do it. Sting wins the title for the first time by rolling up Flair in this massively built match and is the first ever WCW World Champion. A new era begins. And we have avoided all the muddying of the waters with the NWA Title that happened because Flair won't hold the title when he leaves.

I’ll become a bit more general now. First third of 1991 is finishing off the Flair feud. Maybe run a Sting vs. Flair rematch at WrestleWar in some sort of gimmick and it has a schmozz finish with Horseman and Pillman/Steiners. This leads to running WarGames at the first SuperBrawl: Sting/Steiners/Pillman vs. Flair/Windham/Arn/Tully, which ends with the surprising finish of Sting submitting Flair in the Scorpion. Clear, decisive. Flair seemed to love Sting and I don’t see him having a problem doing this. It was time for Flair to leave WCW and get out of Sting’s way. He is just too big a name and a presence to be hanging around underneath the main event and he wanted to go up North. He put Sting over huge, let him go to the Fed.

In between WrestleWar and SuperBrawl was the first WCW/NJPW Supershow and I don’t know if this was planned as a yearly thing from the outset, but let’s just assume it was. I like the idea of utilising the Sting/Muta feud/dynamic on these shows, which they did do, but I’d take one step back. I’d have them on opposite sides of a tag to start with. Sting has just become World Champ so can’t have him doing a job here. Flair can challenge Fujinami for the IWGP Title in the main, which along with the interpromotional deal, should draw the big house. I like the idea of doing Sting + partner vs. Muta + partner on the first show, establishing the Sting/Muta rivalry to the Japanese. Then Sting vs. Muta the next year. Then, with respect established, you do the team up Sting/Muta vs. Steiners (they had joined the Fed but actually worked this show in reality) or Power Warriors (Hawk/Sasaki) the year after.

Second half of 1991 is about building to Sting/Luger at Starrcade. I wouldn’t be totally against turning Luger face at some point in 1990 or early 1991, provided he doesn’t have to fail to win the World Title and just stays US Champ. In order to then turn on Sting again of course. Or just stick with him as heel all the way through. With Flair gone, you could run Sting/Windham again at GAB 1991 since he can claim to be taking over from Flair. Paul E sets up the Dangerous Alliance heading into Starrcade as he did in reality. Rather than just having Luger be sort-of aligned with them, I don’t see why to not make Luger the centrepiece of the DA and Rude the second in command heading into Starrcade.

Sting/Luger, the former friends, the feud in 1989 that was left unresolved, built up big to peak at the big show Starrcade 1991. Sting wins and that is the end of Luger, with Rude built up well to move into the spot of DA head honcho and is Sting’s next challenger for the first half of 1992, including Sting/Rude at SuperBrawl II and the WarGames match at WrestleWar 1992. Vader is built up big in late 1991/early 1992 and beats Sting at GAB 1992, ending his 18-month run. Then you build up to Starrcade 1992, which ends with Sting regaining his World Title from Big Van.

I haven’t really mentioned what I’d be doing with the Muta appearances, but after Sting and Muta tag at the third WCW/NJPW Supershow, you now can have Muta wanting to challenge Sting for the World Title and a big-time match is set for SuperBrawl III. Let's quickly throw some things out there. After losing his TV Title to Sting at the May 1990 PPV, he turns face on Gary Hart and co. and leaves the promotion. You can run Luger/Muta as a special attraction match second from the top at Starrcade '90 with a finish that protects both (Muta as a face/tweener does not really hurt him vs. Sting in singles or tag on the Japan show). Now, I'm thinking (even though Muta didn't work it, he was free to) you could run Rude/Muta second from the top at Starrcade '91 with Rude stealing the win. And then you could run Sting/Muta vs. Vader/Rude on the Japan Supershow II, which is part of setting up the Sting/Vader program. So you do Sting and Muta against each other in a tag on I, tag partners at II and it is on III then that you do the big singles. Actually, that works perfectly as Muta held the IWGP Title at that time. So you do champion vs. champion, no titles on the line, in Japan. Muta beats Sting. And that leads to Sting vs. Muta at SuperBrawl III as already discussed, with the WCW Title on the line and Sting gets his win back.

This has probably become a bit of a mess as I’m fully cut at this point, but fuck it, I’ll post it anyway and see what people have to say/suggest. 🤯 Shootist Baker

I'm not used to Strobe rebooking WCW, but it's a pleasant surprise and absolute treat!

An 18-month Sting reign feels... Long? And I miss the idea of Flair showing up in the WWF as the Real World's Champion, as the McMahon loyalist I'll always be. But that said, I do love a lot about this.

That said too, at the outset of this post I got false start excited you were about to book Sting in the WWF instead of Lex. Fuck what a run THAT could've been!

I haven't read the whole thing yet. Just going to touch on a few things real quick....

Good question about why did Funk hang it up so soon after such a hot run. I do not know the answer. Nor did a quick search reveal anything.

The Iron Man Tournament was a decent idea in theory. I like the idea of using it to push a Wrestle & Tag Team of the 90s since American culture in general was real big on something being "The Thing of the 90s" at the time. But it didn't work out well and started the stupid trend of turning Starrcade into a gimmick PPV.

Thank you! Flair was great as a babyface in 1989 and beyond. The only person who thinks otherwise is Ric Flair.

Flair/Funk at Starrcade 89 obviously works if you hold off on doing the "I Quit Match" at the November Clash. I kept the Clash match and went with Flair/Muta when I rebooked Starrcade 89 earlier in this thread. Think that would have been a cool match with the undefeated Muta suffering his first loss in the main event of the biggest show of the year. Plus you continue the Flair/G. Hart feud which has been raging since July.

*I'll look at the rest and be back with more thoughts later....probably.

Here is my take on Starrcade 89 from earlier in this thread.

Jun 19, 2018 17:41:43 GMT Baker said:

Starrcade 1989

NWA ended their great 1989 with a whimper. The Ironman/Ironteam tournaments to crown the "Wrestler/Team of the 90s" was one of those good ideas in theory that didn't work out so well in reality. Let's correct that with a more traditional show.

1. Freebirds vs. Tom Zenk & Brian Pillman

The new team of Zenk & Pillman goes over the former tag champs with Pillman getting the pin since he'll be pushed strong in early 1990.

2. Dan Spivey vs. Tommy Rich

Spivey's Skyscraper partner Sid sadly got injured not long before this show. This is here to give Spivey a win and keep him strong. It's also an expendable match that can be cut if this show looks like it will go beyond the 3 hour time constraint.

3. Midnight Express vs. Dynamic Dudes- Dudes get 5 minutes with Jim Cornette if they win

This was a slow burn story that peaked the previous month at the Clash when Cornette turned on the Dudes to remain with the Midnights. Now Shane & Johnny are out for revenge. They fail to get it when the MX go over once again. Real life NWA was running this match on the house show circuit at the time. According to Cornette, it was the only time in wrestling history the heels kept going over in this stipulation because the Dudes were the one team who had even more heat with the office than Cornette's Midnight Express

4. Steiners (c) vs. Samoan Swat Team- Tag Title Match

Steiners retain in a high energy crowd pleaser reminiscent of their WM 9 match.

5. Lex Luger (c) vs. Dr. Death Steve Williams- US Title Match

Thought about running Sting/Lex here but it wouldn't have been logical for either guy to the job here. Also wanted to run Doc/Rotunda but that long-running feud seems to have wrapped up in October. So I'll compromise with Lex going over Doc, possibly by DQ or countout since Doc was never keen to do jobs.

6. Road Warriors vs. Doom- Grudge Match

I'm not exactly sure when Teddy Long joined up with Doom but let's do that here as Doom replaces the Skyscrapers in Long's feud with the Roadies. Not sure about the finish here. Either LOD goes over or we get some kind of double DQ/draw to stretch this feud out.

7. Sting vs. Terry Funk- Grudge Match

Funk getting phased out so quickly after his GOAT candidate feud with Flair was beyond stupid. Then again, it's probably Funk who is to blame. He never did like sticking around in any one place for a long period of time. But we'll force him to with some cold hard $$$. Funk is a tweener now. He's split with G. Hart & Muta. He's come to respect Flair. But he still has a problem with the Stinger. So they settle their long-running auxiliary feud here with Sting going over clean to cap off his huge year. Funk gets phased out after this while Sting is on track to become the Next Big Thing.

8. Ric Flair (c) vs. Great Muta- NWA Championship Match

The obvious Starrcade 89 main event. Flair had been feuding with Muta's manager, Gary Hart, for months. Flair & Muta were on opposite sides in an epic Thunderdome Cage Match in October. Flair had probably the greatest single year in wrestling history while Muta has been undefeated for nearly the entire year himself, and has carried the TV Title for months. This would have been huge. Flair goes over clean to hand Muta his first loss and HIS year with a big, damn celebration. Possibly involving the returning Arn Anderson! (he'd return irl 12 days later)

I honestly don't know enough about NWA/WCW history to really be able to intelligently comment, but since we're kinda on this topic, I've always thought that the history of Starrcade main events should've read like the history of WrestleMania main events... Just with Flair inserted as the constant variable instead of Hogan.

So I guess look something like this nor the four-year span we're talking about where Starrcade was a botched gimmick project instead in reality...

'89: Flair vs. Muta
'90: Flair vs. Sting
'91: Sting vs. Luger
'92: Sting vs. Vader

Then Flair returns, so go back to our constant...

'93: Flair vs. Vader
'94: Flair vs. Hogan

And then Hogan takes over as the constant.

88: Flair vs. Luger
89: Flair vs. Funk (I still think this is the match to do here, it was THE feud of the year)
90: Flair vs. Sting
91: Sting vs. Luger
92: Sting vs. Vader
93: Flair vs. Vader (even if we got Sting drawing better, a returning Flair and then Hogan are Flair and Hogan)
94: Hogan vs. Flair (the third match would've been at Starrcade if WCW had kept Starrcade special and THE show)
95: Hogan vs. Savage
96: Hogan vs. Piper
97: Hogan vs. Sting
98: Sting vs. Goldberg (was Sting actually out injured here Big Pete like you said in that other forum? I thought he was just sent home to try to get himself straight)
      or Hogan vs. Bret (if we held off on it that long)
      or it's a DOOOOUUUBBBBLLLLEEE MAAAAAIIIIIIINNNN EEEEEVVVVVEEEEEENNNNTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!

98: Sting vs. Goldberg (was Sting actually out injured here Big Pete like you said in that other forum? I thought he was just sent home to try to get himself straight)

That was just his kayfabe injury, you're right he took a few months off after finding god and ratting out all the boys to their partners. I wouldn't want him in the locker room at that time. :lol:

In this simplified alternate universe, I think you've got to run Goldberg/Hogan II at '98 for that Hogan continuity.

Hogan ends the streak with copious nWo-ference to get HIS title back. 1999 becomes Goldberg's Revenge World Tour, mowing his way through Hall and Nash on PPV en route to Goldberg/Hogan III on PPV to get the title back, end nWo once and got all, and send Hogan packing to come back as a red and yellow face.

Then '98 becomes the pivot point with Goldberg as the new constant variable. Goldberg/Hogan at' 98, Goldberg/Bret at '99, and Goldberg/Steiner (or Sid? or DDP?) at 2000 to kill the territory.

I wonder if the plan was to stage Hogan/Warrior III at Starrcade with Hogan getting his win once and for all, only for them to kabosh that plan when Warrior buried Hogan in his opening 20 minute manifesto?

Thinking about this some more, giving myself a lot of leeway, I've been having fun imaging an alternate universe where the same ol' players DOMINATE the main events of WrestleMania and Starrcade for YEARS in parallel.

Here's what I'm thinking (feel free to chime in with ideas on how to tweak to make it either more realistic, more absurd, etc.)...

1987
WrestleMania: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Andre the Giant
Starrcade: Ric Flair (c) vs. Dusty Rhodes
Dusty creates Starrcade in response to the biggest WrestleMania ever. We forego the Ronnie Garvin experiment and keep the belt on Flair. Dusty slots himself into the main event as Flair's challenger here. To make the match seem extra special, perhaps it's an overbooked gimmick match? Maybe an "I Quit" Title vs. Career CAGE MATCH, BABAY!!~ Not knowing anything about NWA/WCW history, I'm assuming Flair vs. Rhodes just always works as a go-to main event attraction. On paper it certainly seems like a reasonable inaugural Starrcade main event.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 1
Flair: 1
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1

- - - - -

1988
WrestleMania: Ted DiBiase (c) vs. Hulk Hogan
Starrcade: Ric Flair (c) vs. Lex Luger
Instead of vacating the belt and having a tournament to determine a new WWF Champion, let's just have the controversy stand with Hogan/Andre II resulting in Andre "pinning" Hogan to "win" the title and then handing the belt over to DiBiase. The main event of WrestleMania becomes centered around Hogan reclaiming his belt from DiBiase, while Savage is held down and the Mega Powers formation happens in some deferred/delayed way. On what will become a common theme here, not knowing what's going on in NWA/WCW history around this time, I'm not aware of any reason to pivot away fro Flair/Luger... so... Flair/Luger it is!

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 2
Flair: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
Luger: 1
DiBiase: 1

- - - - -

1989
WrestleMania: Randy Savage (c) vs. Hulk Hogan
Starrcade: Ric Flair (c) vs. Terry Funk
The Mega Powers storyline is slightly different in this alternate universe since Hogan is maintaining more of a stranglehold on the WWF Championship. Savage gets jealous over Hogan trying to woo away Liz. Hogan claims he just wants her to manage him as well as Savage, but Savage sees through Hogan's bullshit. Everyone else might give Hogan a hall pass to do whatever he wants because he's the WWF Champion... but not the Macho Man! Thinking he's already lost Liz to Hogan, Savage turns heel again when he declares his intention to take away the one thing that means as much to Hogan as Liz means to the Macho Man -- the WWF Championship! On the NWA/WCW side of the world, I'm good with Strobe's idea to extend the 1b Feud of the Year to December for a blow-off in the main event of Starrcade. Or, I'm good with Baker-man's Muta idea too. Y'all can debate pros and cons and let me know which way to go. For now, Funker works as a placeholder.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 3
Flair: 3
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
Luger: 1
DiBiase: 1
Savage: 1
Funk: 1

- - - - -

1990
WrestleMania: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. The Ultimate Warrior
Starrcade: Ric Flair (c) vs. Sting
Year of the Blade Runners!

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 4
Flair: 4
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
Luger: 1
DiBiase: 1
Savage: 1
Funk: 1
Warrior: 1
Sting: 1

- - - - -

1991
WrestleMania: The Ultimate Warrior (c) vs. Hulk Hogan
Starrcade: Sting (c) vs. Lex Luger
Year of the Blade Runners: Chapter 2! Warrior embraces the darkness in the lead-in to his rematch against Hulk, and his heel-ish ways cost him the title. Fortunately for Sting, Luger is a well-establish choke artist... so nothing to fear for the better Blade Runner. Due to timing, Flair misses out on both big shows this year.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 5
Flair: 4
Luger: 2
Sting: 2
Warrior: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Savage: 1
Funk: 1

- - - - -

1992
WrestleMania: Ric Flair (c) vs. Hulk Hogan
Starrcade: Sting (c) vs. Vader
Flair pops up in the WWF and main-events WrestleMania against Hogan in the first-ever Constant Variable Dream Match. Meanwhile, monster heel Vader murders Sting to set him off on a year-long title run in WCW. It's a year of heel victories, as the wily Flair somehow successfully retains the WWF Championship against Hogan. Who cares about details!

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 6
Flair: 5
Sting: 3
Luger: 2
Warrior: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Savage: 1
Funk: 1
Vader: 1

- - - - -

1993
WrestleMania: Hulk Hogan vs. Ric Flair
Starrcade: Vader (c) vs. Ric Flair
After missing out on both big shows in 1991, Flair catches back up my main-eventing both big shows in 1993. We convince him to hang around in the WWF until 'Mania, where he main-events against Hogan in a rematch billed as a "Career vs. Career" Retirement Match... going on last over a Bret/Yoko WWF title match* to send fans home happy with Hogan getting his win back to send Flair packing back to WCW. Flair returns to WCW as the prodigal son to defeat Vader to once again become a world champion. *Since Bret is dropping the world title to Yoko here in the "co-main event", we'll award them both a pity point.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 7
Flair: 7
Sting: 3
Warrior: 2
Luger: 2
Vader: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Savage: 1
Funk: 1
Bret: 1
Yoko: 1

- - - - -

1994
WrestleMania: Yokozuna (c) vs. Lex Luger/Bret Hart
Starrcade: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Ric Flair
Let's run the real-life deal at WrestleMania. I'm willing to consider Lex beating Yoko for an hour-long reign before hot-potatoing the belt to Bret. Meanwhile, Hogan pops up in WCW and wins the world title from Flair in his summer debut. The rematch sees Flair pick up a win by some technicality (DQ or count-out), and so a rematch is set for Starrcade. First time we've ever had a WrestleMania main event occur at Starrcade. To add a wrinkle, let's make it a No Holds Barred Cage Match with added stipulation that Flair can never challenge for the title again so long as Hogan is champion if Flair loses.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 8
Flair: 8
Sting: 3
Luger: 3
Warrior: 2
Vader: 2
Bret: 2
Yoko: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Savage: 1
Funk: 1

- - - - -

1995
WrestleMania: Bret Hart (c) vs. Lex Luger
Starrcade: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Randy Savage
Lex turns heel as the crown jewel in Ted DiBiase's Million Dollar Corporation. After getting fucked at WMX and blaming Bret, Lex has his sights set on Bret and taking the world title from him. MDC colludes to help Lex (who enters at #30 thanks to a Ted bride) win the '95 Rumble. Bret retains, but Lex still adds another main event point to his tally to move ahead of Sting in the overall rankings. On WCW's side of things, I like the idea of revisiting Hogan/Savage here. In fact, Savage gets a win back over Hogan thanks to outside interference from Ric Flair --who realizes he can challenge for the world title again if it's not around Hogan's waist (so an enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend kind of deal); maybe Flair is even the special guest ref in this? Someone might need to start checking my math at this point.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 9
Flair: 8
Luger: 4
Sting: 3
Bret: 3
Warrior: 2
Savage: 2
Vader: 2
Yoko: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Funk: 1

- - - - -

1996
WrestleMania: Bret Hart (c) vs. Shawn Michaels
Starrcade: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Roddy Piper
My preference is for the WrestleMania main event to either not be an Iron Man... or otherwise be an exciting Iron Man. On WCW's side of things, fuck it... Piper is doing the job finally to Hogan!

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 10
Flair: 8
Bret: 4
Luger: 4
Sting: 3
Warrior: 2
Savage: 2
Vader: 2
Yoko: 2
Shawn: 1
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Funk: 1

- - - - -

1997
WrestleMania: Shawn Michaels (c) vs. Bret Hart
Starrcade: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Sting
On WCW's side of things, everything stays the same except for the botched finish. On the WWF's side of things, Shawn drops the belt back to Bret in a rematch that may or may not be a ladder match. Bret/Shawn III happens at Survivor Series with the Screw Job that sees Bret depart the WWF and pop up in WCW at Starrcade... perhaps to help prevent nWo-ference and ensure Sting beats Hogan clean?

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 11
Flair: 8
Bret: 5
Luger: 4
Sting: 4
Shawn: 2
Warrior: 2
Savage: 2
Vader: 2
Yoko: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Funk: 1

- - - - -

1998
WrestleMania: Shawn Michaels (c) vs. Steve Austin
Starrcade: Goldberg (c) vs. Hulk Hogan
Sticking with real life on WWF's side to crown Austin. Maybe Tyson doesn't fast-count Shawn at least. On WCW's side, we run Goldberg/Hogan II with Hogan getting his win back along with the belt thanks to outside(r) interference from a reunified nWo.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 12
Flair: 8
Bret: 5
Luger: 4
Sting: 4
Shawn: 3
Warrior: 2
Savage: 2
Vader: 2
Yoko: 2
Austin: 1
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Funk: 1

- - - - -

1998
WrestleMania: Shawn Michaels (c) vs. Steve Austin
Starrcade: Goldberg (c) vs. Hulk Hogan
Sticking with real life on WWF's side to crown Austin. Maybe Tyson doesn't fast-count Shawn at least. On WCW's side, we run Goldberg/Hogan II with Hogan getting his win back along with the belt thanks to outside(r) interference from a reunified nWo. Even despite the controversial end of Goldberg's streak, it's clearly the year of bad ass baldies in black trunks.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 12
Flair: 8
Bret: 5
Luger: 4
Sting: 4
Shawn: 3
Warrior: 2
Savage: 2
Vader: 2
Yoko: 2
Austin: 1
Goldberg: 1
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Funk: 1

- - - - -

1999
WrestleMania: The Rock (c) vs. Steve Austin
Starrcade: Goldberg (c) vs. Bret Hart
Same shit as real life works for me here. First time Hogan hasn't main-evented one or the other? WHOA.

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 12
Flair: 8
Bret: 6
Luger: 4
Sting: 4
Shawn: 3
Austin: 2
Goldberg: 2
Warrior: 2
Savage: 2
Vader: 2
Yoko: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Funk: 1
Rock: 1

- - - - -

2000
WrestleMania: Triple H (c) vs. The Rock
Starrcade: Scott Steiner (c) vs. Goldberg
I have no idea and am running out of steam, so... FUCK IT. Final stats below!

Constant Variable Counter:
Hogan: 12
Flair: 8
Bret: 6
Luger: 4
Sting: 4
Shawn: 3
Goldberg: 3
Austin: 2
Rock: 2
Warrior: 2
Savage: 2
Vader: 2
Yoko: 2
Andre: 1
Dusty: 1
DiBiase: 1
Funk: 1
HHH: 1
Steiner: 1

May 19, 2020 1:48:37 GMT Strobe said:

After all my talk about no longer doing any sort of long-term booking because of all the issues that can crop up... well, fuck that for now as the talk about Sting in the Fav Wrestler thread has me thinking about him on top in the early 90s.

I think what is most frustrating about his run is that some of the grand scheme stuff in terms of opponents was great and really feels like it could’ve drawn, but plenty of poor decisions and timing issues went against it. Along with all the standard WCW incompetence.

Let's start with discussing some of the poor decisions that were made during this period:

- Has anyone ever heard why, after doing great business with Flair, Funk was removed as an in-ring act post-I Quit match? Just ended up doing commentary and an interview segment called Funk's Grill before leaving in early 1990.

- The Starrcade '89 Iron Man tournament in general, the beginning of turning Starrcade into a gimmick show. At it, they had Muta lose his undefeated record in 2 mins and then two further times on the night. No Flair/Muta PPV main that could’ve done business and Muta left shortly into 1990.

- Someone needed to slap Flair and tell him to just accept being face for a bit. He preferred being a heel so much that he would demand to be turned even when it was disadvantageous to him. Multiple times. People point to the Fingerpoke of Doom in 1999, but the next month face Flair vs. heel Hogan equalled the Starrcade 98 buyrate, only one week after Austin vs. Vince in a cage, itself only beating it by 25k PPV buys. The following month, face Flair vs. heel Hogan in a first blood cage rematch did the same buyrate as the stacked Havoc 98 and it was two weeks before a Mania that drew monstrously. But that cage match was a convoluted mess and they did a double turn that the fans didn’t want, because Flair wanted to be heel. In 1989, fans were loving being able to fully cheer Flair (he always received some cheers as a heel) and crowds were hot for the face Horsemen in early 1990. I’ve heard Arn say they were miscast at the time, which is bullshit. Him and Flair just preferred being heels. Fans wanted some time with face Flair and Horsemen. Doing so could’ve been positive in the short-term (in terms of drawing houses and TV ratings) and long-term (giving fans confidence that you give them what they want, so they give you more leeway when things go wrong).

- I agree with Cornette that there was an easy out for WCW to give to the Turner folks in regards to Tully and his failed drugs test with the WWF – that you are a compassionate company who gives second chances and is going to put this man through rehab. Tully as a singles and a team with Arn had been a draw for this company, was recently tag champion in the WWF and was a key component of the Horsemen. Since Tully as a face is a bad idea, the whole “we’ll bring him in after rehab” actually works perfectly for when you turn the Horsemen back heel.

- Turning Luger face, ending a great heel run, because they panicked after Sting got injured. But Luger could not win the title, so added to his failure in 1988, this established the idea of him as a choker.

- Completely dropping the great planned feud with Pillman and MX that would’ve led into Flair/Pillman and could’ve made Pillman as a top guy and even stronger ally for Sting.

- The Black Scorpion angle did actually pop some numbers in the initial stages, but it was a poor idea overall. Too campy, too long and the payoff was never going to be good. Fans got short-changed on face Horsemen and then got blue-balled on Lex winning the title again. Hardly the best environment for Sting to then win his first title in, even if the fans wanted it. Then he gets saddled with the Black Scorpion angle. During this angle, Flair moves to below the main event, which I don’t think fans really wanted to see either.

- In addition to the main matches, Starrcade ’90 featured another gimmick – the Pat O’Connor Memorial Tag Team Tournament. This featured some teams that the fans had never seen or heard of. This tournament was also where Muta was going to be making his first appearance since early Feb, which is a waste. Even if you assumed that the top seeds would make the final and you’d get Steiners vs. Muta + partner, that is not close to the same as a match being booked.

- Muta appeared at WrestleWar 91 to promote him and Sting at the Tokyo Dome for the WCW/NJPW Supershow, which is good, but I’m just putting it out there that there was a chance to have him promoted to do a match. Luger/Muta at Clash XV to determine the #1 contender for Flair’s title at GAB sounds fine on paper, but that is a potentially big-time match that could have done with proper build, been on PPV and gone over 4 minutes.

- Obviously the fiasco regarding the handling of Flair behind the scenes heading into the Great American Bash ’91 when he was still champion, leading to him being fired, stripped and the crowd at that show chanting “We Want Flair”. This led to the NWA Title becoming distinct from the WCW Title and that just watered things down.

- Starrcade ’91 was entirely the poor Battlebowl concept. 20 tag teams drawn at random in 10 “lethal lottery” tag matches. The 10 winning teams enter a battle royal at the end of the night. But it is a two-ring “Battlebowl” battle royal where everyone starts in the same ring and you are eliminated by being thrown into ring 2 first and then out of that ring. Needlessly convoluted. It was like they were trying to sabotage their name show. I can see some of the positives and intrigue to this idea, but you’d need to do this on a Clash or standalone TV special first to iron out the kinks and see if the fans took to it.

- WCW burned their dates on Luger’s contract in late 1991 without realising so they ended up with a champion who they couldn’t book in the build to the big Sting/Luger title change. The match also did not feel as big and significant as it could’ve because Sting was involved in multiple feuds while it was being set up (Rude/DA, Abby/Cactus), with the Luger one almost an after-thought. It is quite cool to have everyone gunning for Sting, but this was a match that should’ve been a big, big deal.

- Having Muta work a long TV match with Brad Armstrong in May 1992 when he should be getting kept strong and special in his limited appearances. Was this really their best idea for a rare Muta appearance?

- Starrcade ’92 was the fourth year in a row of getting Starrcade massively wrong. They ran a limited Battlebowl with 4 “lethal lottery” tags, but many of the guys in them were also in other matches, which hurts their specialness when multiple top guys are coming out multiple times and it means some need to lose after winning. Sting wins his tag, then beats Vader in the King of Cable final (when this is the match that should be ending Starrcade and be for the title, not a tournament that should’ve been kept on cable), but then has to be eliminated in the Battlebowl. Vader wins his tag, loses to Sting and then needs to be eliminated in the Battlebowl. Muta wins his tag, then beats Chono (Muta should be working matches against WCW talent, not other NJ wrestlers) and then wins Battlebowl, with the finish at least setting up his NWA Title match with Windham at SuperBrawl III.

- The booking of Sting on the NJPW Supershows was fine really, but we can discuss how we could do it differently in our rebooking.

Before we start this, let’s just assume that we hire competent people in the appropriate spots. When we advertise a show, we actually state the correct date. We pick towns that we actually will draw in, as opposed to just big cities/towns, and pick the appropriate nights to work them. We create good merchandise and promote it well. That sort of stuff.

So if we are picking up from Halloween Havoc ’89 (Flair/Sting vs. Funk/Muta Thunderdome; Luger vs. Pillman), then Flair vs. Funk should be the clear main event for Starrcade ’89. Sting vs. Luger has also been building and Starrcade is the ideal spot to do them for the US Title (as opposed to on TV close to Starrcade like in reality). Muta vs. Pillman could be a great workrate match. This will be the only card that I’ll discuss most of it, since it was pretty much set-up but the Iron Man tourneys got in the way.

Starrcade 1989
Flair(c) vs. Funk (NWA World Title)
Luger(c) vs. Sting (US Title)
Muta(c) vs. Pillman (TV Title)
Steiners(c) vs. Doom (Tag Titles vs. Masks)
Roadies vs. Skyscrapers (Chicago Street Fight)
MX vs. Dudes w/Cornette in neutral corner

Making it an “I Quit” match is up in the air for me, just because it did make sense that Gary Hart would chuck him after that. But I’d still be up for doing it and Hart standing by him. Luger retains through some shady means or do a non-finish. Muta retains and Pillman is kept in with the big boys. Steiners take Doom’s masks. If Sid gets injured in this reality, then just shift Mean Mark into his spot as happened. Since there is no Iron Man gimmick, the MX/Cornette return to being heels can be done on the big show rather than Clash IX.

Arn came back on TV a couple of weeks before Starrcade. With everything set up, I’d save that for post-Starrcade to give that boost to Flair/Sting vs. J-Tex as it now becomes Horsemen vs. J-Tex. I’m gonna stick with the idea of “legit” rehabbing Tully, allowing us to avoid having face Tully in the Horsemen. The Horsemen are Flair, Arn and Sting with Ole in a manager role as the fourth man for now. Funk is still here as an in-ring guy and Buzz Sawyer has come in to join J-Tex too, rather than replacing Funk as in reality. Clash X 6-man is Flair/Sting/Arn vs. Funk/Muta/Sawyer. This then gives us:

WrestleWar ‘90
Flair(c) vs. Muta (NWA World Title)
Sting vs. Funk
Luger(c) vs. Pillman (US Title)
Arn vs. Buzz

I don’t think Muta should’ve been made champion as has been mooted and he was always going to head back to New Japan, although he did so early because of his booking. I think they should’ve treated him well in big-time matches and after he went back, he could become a special attraction for years to come. He could’ve worked being turned face as well, but I have no problem keeping him a cool heel. Since we aren’t turning the Horsemen and if we have this plan, let’s say we can keep the maniac Buzz around a few months extra. He was great and I think fans would buy him in a PPV main. So, even though this is Arn’s first PPV match back, Buzz steals the win over him. In the Havoc ’89 rematch (so not run at Clash IX), Luger defends against Pillman. Sting beats Funk. Flair ends Muta’s undefeated streak in a big-time match but there can be some Horsemen/J-Tex stuff towards the end if we want to protect him.

Capitol Combat 1990 (or whatever name if we aren’t in DC)
Flair(c) vs. Buzz (NWA Title)
Muta(c) vs. Sting (TV Title)
Arn vs. Funk

This is the end of Funk as he puts over Arn. Sting beats Muta for the TV Title to allow Muta to head back to New Japan. I think some sort of finish where Arn/Ole prevent J-Tex interference but then also actively interfere against Muta without Sting’s knowledge works well. Muta is protected, Sting can mention on TV afterwards that he was happy with them stopping interference but would’ve preferred them to leave Muta to him and the Horsemen heel turn has been teased.

Just as a note, we run the full planned MX/Pillman feud that would’ve put him over well.

Now that we have given fans their chance to cheer the Horsemen for almost half a year, it is time to turn them. This extra time with Sting in the stable also makes the turn more impactful. Sting can be named the #1 contender by WCW and Flair/Arn/Ole expect him to turn it down, but he doesn’t. This means that Sting wasn’t actively asking to go against his pals, but he wants to test himself against Naitch since he has been picked.

Great American Bash 1990
Flair(c) vs. Sting (NWA World Title)

Face vs. face match and Sting is closing in on victory when the returning Windham saves Flair and we get a post-match beatdown by the Horsemen and Flair on the mic – “Sting, you never were a Horseman”. Flair thought he could beat Sting, but still is smart enough to have an insurance policy in case, in the form of big Barry.

With Barry replacing Sting and the Horsemen now heel, we can bring back Tully as well and we have a true Four Horsemen of in-ring performers with Ole still as the JJ. Arn/Tully are back as a team and can win the tag titles. Sting now works his way through each of the Horsemen in a 6-month quest to get Flair. As part of this the Horsemen cost him his TV Title in a match with Arn.

Halloween Havoc 1990
Flair(c) vs. Pillman (NWA World Title)
Sting vs. Windham

After what would have been a great MX angle/feud, Pillman is in an ideal spot to be a placeholder challenger for Flair before the Sting match. Sting gets revenge against the man who stopped him winning the title at GAB.

Starrcade 1990
Flair(c) vs. Sting (WCW World Title)
Arn/Tully(c) vs. Steiners (Tag Titles)

I understand why they wanted to put over Sting and Steiners big in 1989 because they could claim they were the singles and tag stars of the 90s, but this is the show to put them over on. The Steiners had only debuted as a team in mid-89. We could’ve put them over the Road Warriors on the May PPV before they left for the WWF and winning the belts again over Arn/Tully at Starrcade is the big defining moment.

They changed the World Title name from NWA to WCW with the Sting to Flair change in mid-Jan 1991. In this rebooking, this is the perfect time to do it. Sting wins the title for the first time by rolling up Flair in this massively built match and is the first ever WCW World Champion. A new era begins. And we have avoided all the muddying of the waters with the NWA Title that happened because Flair won't hold the title when he leaves.

I’ll become a bit more general now. First third of 1991 is finishing off the Flair feud. Maybe run a Sting vs. Flair rematch at WrestleWar in some sort of gimmick and it has a schmozz finish with Horseman and Pillman/Steiners. This leads to running WarGames at the first SuperBrawl: Sting/Steiners/Pillman vs. Flair/Windham/Arn/Tully, which ends with the surprising finish of Sting submitting Flair in the Scorpion. Clear, decisive. Flair seemed to love Sting and I don’t see him having a problem doing this. It was time for Flair to leave WCW and get out of Sting’s way. He is just too big a name and a presence to be hanging around underneath the main event and he wanted to go up North. He put Sting over huge, let him go to the Fed.

In between WrestleWar and SuperBrawl was the first WCW/NJPW Supershow and I don’t know if this was planned as a yearly thing from the outset, but let’s just assume it was. I like the idea of utilising the Sting/Muta feud/dynamic on these shows, which they did do, but I’d take one step back. I’d have them on opposite sides of a tag to start with. Sting has just become World Champ so can’t have him doing a job here. Flair can challenge Fujinami for the IWGP Title in the main, which along with the interpromotional deal, should draw the big house. I like the idea of doing Sting + partner vs. Muta + partner on the first show, establishing the Sting/Muta rivalry to the Japanese. Then Sting vs. Muta the next year. Then, with respect established, you do the team up Sting/Muta vs. Steiners (they had joined the Fed but actually worked this show in reality) or Power Warriors (Hawk/Sasaki) the year after.

Second half of 1991 is about building to Sting/Luger at Starrcade. I wouldn’t be totally against turning Luger face at some point in 1990 or early 1991, provided he doesn’t have to fail to win the World Title and just stays US Champ. In order to then turn on Sting again of course. Or just stick with him as heel all the way through. With Flair gone, you could run Sting/Windham again at GAB 1991 since he can claim to be taking over from Flair. Paul E sets up the Dangerous Alliance heading into Starrcade as he did in reality. Rather than just having Luger be sort-of aligned with them, I don’t see why to not make Luger the centrepiece of the DA and Rude the second in command heading into Starrcade.

Sting/Luger, the former friends, the feud in 1989 that was left unresolved, built up big to peak at the big show Starrcade 1991. Sting wins and that is the end of Luger, with Rude built up well to move into the spot of DA head honcho and is Sting’s next challenger for the first half of 1992, including Sting/Rude at SuperBrawl II and the WarGames match at WrestleWar 1992. Vader is built up big in late 1991/early 1992 and beats Sting at GAB 1992, ending his 18-month run. Then you build up to Starrcade 1992, which ends with Sting regaining his World Title from Big Van.

I haven’t really mentioned what I’d be doing with the Muta appearances, but after Sting and Muta tag at the third WCW/NJPW Supershow, you now can have Muta wanting to challenge Sting for the World Title and a big-time match is set for SuperBrawl III. Let's quickly throw some things out there. After losing his TV Title to Sting at the May 1990 PPV, he turns face on Gary Hart and co. and leaves the promotion. You can run Luger/Muta as a special attraction match second from the top at Starrcade '90 with a finish that protects both (Muta as a face/tweener does not really hurt him vs. Sting in singles or tag on the Japan show). Now, I'm thinking (even though Muta didn't work it, he was free to) you could run Rude/Muta second from the top at Starrcade '91 with Rude stealing the win. And then you could run Sting/Muta vs. Vader/Rude on the Japan Supershow II, which is part of setting up the Sting/Vader program. So you do Sting and Muta against each other in a tag on I, tag partners at II and it is on III then that you do the big singles. Actually, that works perfectly as Muta held the IWGP Title at that time. So you do champion vs. champion, no titles on the line, in Japan. Muta beats Sting. And that leads to Sting vs. Muta at SuperBrawl III as already discussed, with the WCW Title on the line and Sting gets his win back.

This has probably become a bit of a mess as I’m fully cut at this point, but fuck it, I’ll post it anyway and see what people have to say/suggest. 🤯 Shootist Baker

I like this a a lot but I really think WCW wanted Sting to usher in the new decade as champion. Waiting until Dec. 90 just seems like making the fans hold their wad plus he's not really in the chase even having him back down into TV title contention. Having Sting as champion in Feb. 1990 I still like better then you could line up rematches with Flair, a returning Windham, turn Luger heel etc. I think I heard somewhere they wanted to turn Luger heel earlier and have them face off at Starrcade '90 but were discouraged by the even further drop in gate when they faced each other in '89. They really did bungle the Luger feud in '91 though, Abby/Cactus was an extension of that as they were Luger's henchmen and it could have been great had they not burned Luger's dates.

May 19, 2020 17:54:20 GMT 🤯 said:

Dusty creates Starrcade in response to the biggest WrestleMania ever.

Dusty creates Starrcade 4 years after the first Starrcade. This really is an alternate universe!

May 19, 2020 17:54:20 GMT 🤯 said:

Not knowing anything about NWA/WCW history,

Touché.

May 19, 2020 17:54:20 GMT 🤯 said:

I'm good with Strobe 's idea to extend the 1b Feud of the Year to December for a blow-off in the main event of Starrcade. Or, I'm good with Baker -man's Muta idea too. Y'all can debate pros and cons and let me know which way to go. For now, Funker works as a placeholder.

Former NWA Champion Funk, who put Flair on the shelf, tried to suffocate him with a plastic bag and has been the most intense feud in a long time... or Funk's second the undefeated Muta. Easy pick for me even if Muta was the clear challenger after Funk.

Let's wrap up Austin/Shawn at No Way Out of Texas so we can do Austin/HHH at Mania! I know that isn't really analogous but I'm having fun MAGGLE!

May 19, 2020 17:54:20 GMT 🤯 said:

1992
WrestleMania: Ric Flair (c) vs. Hulk Hogan
Starrcade: Sting (c) vs. Vader
Flair pops up in the WWF and main-events WrestleMania against Hogan in the first-ever Constant Variable Dream Match. Meanwhile, monster heel Vader murders Sting to set him off on a year-long title run in WCW. It's a year of heel victories, as the wily Flair somehow successfully retains the WWF Championship against Hogan. Who cares about details!

Flair retaining against Hogan was easy. With the return of the Warrior lined up, you had your big pop to send fans home happy after a DQ finish in the Mania main. Hogan's buddy Sid comes out, as if he is going to stop Perfect interference but turns on Hogan, causing the DQ and saving the title for Flair. Macho comes out to try to save Hogan but Sid/Flair/Perfect are all over them until Warrior returns and the 3 big faces pose to end Mania. It even sets up the post-Mania feuds that were planned - Flair/Savage and Warrior/Sid. We got a botched DQ finish anyway in Hogan/Sid and Papa Shango was involved in it. No reason to not have Hogan/Flair (and the other matches that should've been, Savage/Jake and Sid/Taker) at Mania VIII.

Vader murders Sting to end Starrcade. Bold.

May 19, 2020 17:54:20 GMT 🤯 said:

1996
WrestleMania: Bret Hart (c) vs. Shawn Michaels
Starrcade: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Roddy Piper
My preference is for the WrestleMania main event to either not be an Iron Man... or otherwise be an exciting Iron Man. On WCW's side of things, fuck it... Piper is doing the job finally to Hogan!

And heel nWo Hogan beats the just-arrived Piper. Also pretty bold as it probably was time for someone to get something over on Hogan. Although you don't have to just not have the title on the line like in reality. Was it ever said it was going to be in reality and they decided to change it and just not mention it? Or did everyone just assume the belt was up for grabs when it wasn't and were surprised when Piper won and wasn't champion?

May 19, 2020 17:54:20 GMT 🤯 said:

1997
WrestleMania: Shawn Michaels (c) vs. Bret Hart
Starrcade: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Sting
On WCW's side of things, everything stays the same except for the botched finish. On the WWF's side of things, Shawn drops the belt back to Bret in a rematch that may or may not be a ladder match. Bret/Shawn III happens at Survivor Series with the Screw Job that sees Bret depart the WWF and pop up in WCW at Starrcade... perhaps to help prevent nWo-ference and ensure Sting beats Hogan clean?

Some people shit on getting Bret involved in the Starrcade main event, but those people are wrong. Well, maybe they aren't in that it is only a good idea if you can execute it. It was a perfect set up. The Hogan/Bret history from Hulk's final run in the WWF. The Bret/Sting dream match that fans had talked about, top face in each promotion, same finisher. You have the Hogan/Sting match with the worry that the nWo will do some of their usual shenanigans and now the guy who is an ideal next opponent for either has been fucked over by a ref in the WWF and jumped across.

May 19, 2020 17:54:20 GMT 🤯 said:

1998
WrestleMania: Shawn Michaels (c) vs. Steve Austin
Starrcade: Goldberg (c) vs. Hulk Hogan
Sticking with real life on WWF's side to crown Austin. Maybe Tyson doesn't fast-count Shawn at least. On WCW's side, we run Goldberg/Hogan II with Hogan getting his win back along with the belt thanks to outside(r) interference from a reunified nWo.

Iron Mike was always going to be too excited to help his man Cold Stone.

Ending Starrcade with the nWo fucking over Goldberg and the belt going back to Hogan could've gotten a very ugly reaction. And maybe not even in the good ugly way. Bold again.

Strobe, next project prompt--

I need help thinking through a WrestleMania II re-book/tidy-up.

GO!

May 20, 2020 16:37:41 GMT 🤯 said:

Strobe , next project prompt--

I need help thinking through a WrestleMania II re-book/tidy-up.

GO!

Pre-Mania III is a bit of a blind spot for me. I'd need to do more research, but I can throw some things out there right now.

An obvious change is having Macho's IC win on the big show. Him and Tito were feuding in late 85/early 86 and the Steele feud started up towards the end of 85 alongside it. Savage won the title 2 months before Mania in Boston and they were still working big shows against each other in June. It was a different climate, house shows were still the big money maker and I understand why a title change would be done at one of the big WWF house shows (only aired locally) to keep that crowd pretty. I also understand why, forgetting the title change, you wouldn't even run Savage/Tito at all on TV/PPV as there is enough other stuff on this PPV card to draw and it saves that sort of match to draw house shows. But we want to make these cards better! Savage/Tito, either the change or a Savage defence, makes this card so much better. Steele could be involved if we wanted I guess.

Tito and Valentine went around delivering **** matches in late 84/early 85. Then Tito and Savage went around delivering **** matches in late 85/early 86. If you add Tito/Hammer and Tito/Macho to Manias I and II, Santana's legacy is so different. Hell, you could even have that be his reign. Wins the belt back at Mania I, can still do the Hammer cage match blowoff in Baltimore in July (which aired on TV a few weeks later) just with Tito as champ, and then loses the belt at Mania II.

JYD and Terry Funk had been feuding since like September 1985 and Mania ended up being the blowoff. Dory had been introduced under 2 months before Mania and Terry only worked a few more times after Mania that year. I don't know if he was hurt and longer-term plans for The Funk Brothers were scrapped. But in the interest of tidying it up, Dory never comes in and JYD beats Terry in a blowoff match, sending Funk out of the Fed. Maybe even do a gimmick match. Dog Collar would be perfect. JYD even worked 4 of them in 1986, including one against Dory.

Orndorff had turned face in May 1985 and became pals with Hogan, feuding with Piper and Orton. Those 2 had been his main opponents since then and in early 86 he was working cast matches (I can't find info on what this is; was Orndorff allowed his own cast as an equaliser?) with Orton and lumberjack matches with Piper. It is hard to turn down having Clubber Lang work a boxing match so Piper is tied up but Orndorff/Orton in a cast match sounds like a good addition. Orton did have the cast taken off before SNME V to work a boxing match with T to set-up Mania, but we can either not do that or still do the cast gimmick match anyway and come up with a reason like Orndorff wanting Orton to feel what it is like to be hit by the cast and he can't run from it just because he is no longer wearing it or some shit.

In late 85/early 86, Andre was working with Bundy, in singles and in tags with Hillbilly Jim against Bundy/Studd. In a world where you do something different with Hogan, some form of the Andre/Bundy feud works. Or you could even have Hogan/Andre vs. Bundy/Studd (as was run around this time) as the main event, tag match again, and gives more spice to Hogan/Andre the following year. But the NFL players in the Battle Royal was something fun and fitting with the celebrity aspect of Mania. Andre getting to win his speciality match on the big show is also pretty great. For Mania, I like trying to have a hook or gimmick to each match if I can.

Another feud in late 85/early 86 was Steamboat/Muraco. They did an angle where The Rock and Fuji hung Steamboat over the ropes and worked martial arts matches on house shows, which I think were just No DQ, No CO and they wore gis. It sounds like the one on the Boston Garden show where Macho won the IC is surprisingly good but I can't find a video. Steamboat brought his occasional partner at the time King Tonga (the future Haku/Meng) out at the MSG version of the match a week or so later to counteract Fuji. I could see that giving the match something extra, the sort of thing I like for this time period.

We have a shell of something better here. Let's put it in one arena and not care about swinging our dick about and having it in three major venues across the country just because Starrcade ran two relatively local venues a few months prior.

Hogan(c) vs. Bundy w/Heenan - Cage WWF Title
Piper w/Duva vs. Mr. T w/Frazier - Boxing
Tito(c) vs. Savage w/Liz - IC Title (maybe Steele comes out to look at Liz at some point and is ushered to the back)
Andre wins - WWF vs. NFL Battle Royal
Orndorff vs. Orton - Cast
JYD vs. Funk w/Jimmy - Dog Collar
Muraco w/Fuji vs. Steamboat w/Tonga - Martial Arts
Bulldogs(c) w/Albano & Ozzy vs. Dream Team w/Valiant - Tag Titles

Beyond that, I see Adonis/Steele was a feud at this time too. Savage had Tito, these two feuds had tagged, as Steele was joining them together with his Liz obsession. I just read a match finish where Adonis takes a picture of Liz and rips it up, then the Animal tries to put it back together and Adonis uses that distraction to win. That's the sort of pro wrestling goofiness that could work for us here as well. And it gives us our Steele/Liz story element on the show but keeps Steele away from Savage/Tito. Perfect.

That's all I got for now.

May 19, 2020 18:43:50 GMT Shootist said:

Waiting until Dec. 90 just seems like making the fans hold their wad plus he's not really in the chase even having him back down into TV title contention. Having Sting as champion in Feb. 1990 I still like better then you could line up rematches with Flair, a returning Windham, turn Luger heel etc.

I wasn't watching at the time so someone could tell me I'm talking shite, but I don't think fans at Halloween Havoc 89 were going to be up in arms if Sting wasn't champ within a few months. This was hardly Austin in early 98. Flair was an over face champ.

And I don't think the TV Title stuff is going down as such, simply because of the elements involved.

Sting is in the #2 Starrcade match below Flair. He is the #2 guy in the Horsemen. He is in the #2 match at WrestleWar. At Capitol Combat, it is a TV Title match but Sting/Muta is 1b to Flair/Buzz's 1a on that card.

Sting winning the TV Title is just a way to have it be that only Flair and Sting have beaten Muta, and perhaps both not absolutely clean, and a means of getting the TV Title where it needs to be. It wouldn't feel like a Sting demotion at all.

As Sting is made #1 contender after winning that title and you do face vs. face at GAB and the big Horsemen heel turn. The Horsemen's focus is Sting from that point on. Flair is running from him and he has to beat the rest to get to him, because they can claim he had his title shot. You just quickly get the TV Title off him to Arn. Have him still selling the effects of the GAB beatdown, Arn is all over him, then he fires up, showing so much heart and looks like he will somehow pull it off and then some Horsemen interference costs him. More heat on the Horsemen, more sympathy for Sting.

The rest of the year, whatever Sting is doing is 1b to what Flair is doing and they are always linked. The end game is clear, building to Flair/Sting. Pillman and even the Steiners in singles matches (as we are building to Steiners vs. Arn/Tully as well) would be great Flair opponents while Sting is battling the lesser Horsemen. And it is all building to the ultimate WarGames blowoff as well.

I think this starts Sting's run off in a much stronger way. Fans weren't short-changed on face Horsemen, they weren't burned on Luger again, the entire Flair/Sting deal has even more story and doesn't start his reign off with the Black Scorpion but Flair rematch, Horsemen WarGames and Muta interaction in Japan.

Thanks for the helpful stab at WM2, Strobe. I'm still toying with both that and my WM1 rebook.

To change gears in the meantime...

A question for all—
Should Goldberg vs. Giant have been as big of an irresistible force meets immovable object deal for WCW as Hogan/Andre was for WWF? Like, I can't help but think Paul Wight had all the tools and talents and that he just needed better booking to make Goldberg/Giant at Starrcade 1998 do HUGE business.

More Mania 2 thoughts.

Hart Foundation vs. Killer Bees was a house show match of the time to build Bret/Anvil up to be challengers for soon-to-be new champs the Bulldogs. Could run a 10-min sprint version of their match as the show opener. I know they got the rub working with Andre for the battle royal finish, but I'd rather they just win a tag match.

Speaking of the battle royal, I'd have the finish be Andre and Studd. They were still interacting as Andre was feuding with Studd's partner Bundy in late 85/early 86 and they worked tags against each other and then singles again around this Mania time. I also think it is a nice callback to the previous year. I don't think you need to do the slam again. Keep that as special and since it is a battle royal, we don't need a finish as such. After getting big heat for eliminating Fridge, Studd has a staredown with Andre and after a short battle, Andre eliminates him to a big pop.

Hillbilly Jim was in line for a big push as Hogan's great pal until his broke his leg a few weeks before Mania I. To keep him involved while injured, they introduced kayfabe family members - Cousin Luke, Cousin Junior and Uncle Elmer. Uncle Elmer would get married on a famous SNME segment in October 1985, where Piper interrupted while Jesse ragged on it all from the commentary desk. They ran some Jim/Elmer/Luke vs. Piper/Orton/Jesse 6-mans and Elmer vs. Jesse was a house show match almost up until Mania. You could run that or a Jim/Elmer vs. Jesse/partner tag. I think I'd just put Jim and Elmer as two more big guys in the battle royal to look massive next to the NFL stars and for Andre and Studd to eliminate. I want Jesse at the desk all night.

Corporal Kirchner was in an obvious feud with Sheik and Volkoff and they ran a short Kirchner vs. Volkoff flag match on the show that served its purpose. You could run Kirchner vs. Sheik (World Champ 2 years prior) for a bit more star power, but would he want to lose easily? Unlikely. They did run Kirchner/Spivey vs. Sheik/Volkoff on house shows close to Mania, which would work and it can still be a flag match. Sheik/Volkoff had beaten the US Express of Windham/Rotunda to become the tag champs at Mania I. Windham left in October and Rotunda/Spivey teamed briefly in November as the new US Express before Rotunda left as well (he'd be back in May and he and Spivey continued teaming). So even though Spivey was not actively involved, there is a link to Mania I as well if you make it a tag.

I will have more later.

May 22, 2020 13:22:16 GMT Strobe said:

More Mania 2 thoughts.

Hart Foundation vs. Killer Bees was a house show match of the time to build Bret/Anvil up to be challengers for soon-to-be new champs the Bulldogs. Could run a 10-min sprint version of their match as the show opener. I know they got the rub working with Andre for the battle royal finish, but I'd rather they just win a tag match.

Speaking of the battle royal, I'd have the finish be Andre and Studd. They were still interacting as Andre was feuding with Studd's partner Bundy in late 85/early 86 and they worked tags against each other and then singles again around this Mania time. I also think it is a nice callback to the previous year. I don't think you need to do the slam again. Keep that as special and since it is a battle royal, we don't need a finish as such. After getting big heat for eliminating Fridge, Studd has a staredown with Andre and after a short battle, Andre eliminates him to a big pop.

Hillbilly Jim was in line for a big push as Hogan's great pal until his broke his leg a few weeks before Mania I. To keep him involved while injured, they introduced kayfabe family members - Cousin Luke, Cousin Junior and Uncle Elmer. Uncle Elmer would get married on a famous SNME segment in October 1985, where Piper interrupted while Jesse ragged on it all from the commentary desk. They ran some Jim/Elmer/Luke vs. Piper/Orton/Jesse 6-mans and Elmer vs. Jesse was a house show match almost up until Mania. You could run that or a Jim/Elmer vs. Jesse/partner tag. I think I'd just put Jim and Elmer as two more big guys in the battle royal to look massive next to the NFL stars and for Andre and Studd to eliminate. I want Jesse at the desk all night.

Corporal Kirchner was in an obvious feud with Sheik and Volkoff and they ran a short Kirchner vs. Volkoff flag match on the show that served its purpose. You could run Kirchner vs. Sheik (World Champ 2 years prior) for a bit more star power, but would he want to lose easily? Unlikely. They did run Kirchner/Spivey vs. Sheik/Volkoff on house shows close to Mania, which would work and it can still be a flag match. Sheik/Volkoff had beaten the US Express of Windham/Rotunda to become the tag champs at Mania I. Windham left in October and Rotunda/Spivey teamed briefly in November as the new US Express before Rotunda left as well (he'd be back in May and he and Spivey continued teaming). So even though Spivey was not actively involved, there is a link to Mania I as well if you make it a tag.

I will have more later.

Looking at the real life card, I'm wondering...

How much of a "thing" were guys like Ted Arcidi, Tony Atlas, Dan Spivey, King Tonga, and Corporal Kirchner heading into WM2? Are they over enough/special enough to warrant spots on the card, even if it's in battle royal filler capacity? Also, I feel like if we have access to Bruno Sammartino and Pedro Morales on this show... is there a better use for two former WWWF Champions than battle royal filler?

May 22, 2020 16:23:41 GMT 🤯 said:

May 22, 2020 13:22:16 GMT Strobe said:

More Mania 2 thoughts.

Hart Foundation vs. Killer Bees was a house show match of the time to build Bret/Anvil up to be challengers for soon-to-be new champs the Bulldogs. Could run a 10-min sprint version of their match as the show opener. I know they got the rub working with Andre for the battle royal finish, but I'd rather they just win a tag match.

Speaking of the battle royal, I'd have the finish be Andre and Studd. They were still interacting as Andre was feuding with Studd's partner Bundy in late 85/early 86 and they worked tags against each other and then singles again around this Mania time. I also think it is a nice callback to the previous year. I don't think you need to do the slam again. Keep that as special and since it is a battle royal, we don't need a finish as such. After getting big heat for eliminating Fridge, Studd has a staredown with Andre and after a short battle, Andre eliminates him to a big pop.

Hillbilly Jim was in line for a big push as Hogan's great pal until his broke his leg a few weeks before Mania I. To keep him involved while injured, they introduced kayfabe family members - Cousin Luke, Cousin Junior and Uncle Elmer. Uncle Elmer would get married on a famous SNME segment in October 1985, where Piper interrupted while Jesse ragged on it all from the commentary desk. They ran some Jim/Elmer/Luke vs. Piper/Orton/Jesse 6-mans and Elmer vs. Jesse was a house show match almost up until Mania. You could run that or a Jim/Elmer vs. Jesse/partner tag. I think I'd just put Jim and Elmer as two more big guys in the battle royal to look massive next to the NFL stars and for Andre and Studd to eliminate. I want Jesse at the desk all night.

Corporal Kirchner was in an obvious feud with Sheik and Volkoff and they ran a short Kirchner vs. Volkoff flag match on the show that served its purpose. You could run Kirchner vs. Sheik (World Champ 2 years prior) for a bit more star power, but would he want to lose easily? Unlikely. They did run Kirchner/Spivey vs. Sheik/Volkoff on house shows close to Mania, which would work and it can still be a flag match. Sheik/Volkoff had beaten the US Express of Windham/Rotunda to become the tag champs at Mania I. Windham left in October and Rotunda/Spivey teamed briefly in November as the new US Express before Rotunda left as well (he'd be back in May and he and Spivey continued teaming). So even though Spivey was not actively involved, there is a link to Mania I as well if you make it a tag.

I will have more later.

Looking at the real life card, I'm wondering...

How much of a "thing" were guys like Ted Arcidi, Tony Atlas, Dan Spivey, King Tonga, and Corporal Kirchner heading into WM2? Are they over enough/special enough to warrant spots on the card, even if it's in battle royal filler capacity? Also, I feel like if we have access to Bruno Sammartino and Pedro Morales on this show... is there a better use for two former WWWF Champions than battle royal filler?

Arcidi was basically a blip on the radar and is good battle royal fodder, Spivey replaced Windham in the US Express, Tony Atlas was mid card filler with no real rhyme or reason to his booking, Kirchner was a serviceable fill-in for Sarge. Spivey and Rotundo could do a tag while Tony Atlas had a couple of matches with Jesse Ventura and also worked with Hercules. I'm still fine with Kirchner's spot in the flag match. Bruno/Pedro on the card in a singles role is interesting to think about. It would be tough to shoe horn Bruno in since he was basically feuding with Orton and Piper. No way you take T and Orndorff off the card unless you give Orndorff the main event against Hogan. Pedro also had a few matches with Orton. Maybe throw together a Bruno/Pedro vs. Orton/Terry Funk match? Throw in JYD and add another heel to Orton/Terry for a six man? A lot of possibilities to be had.

I do kinda really like the idea of two former NWA Champions in the Funk Brothers taking on two former WWWF Champions in Bruno and Pedro.

I'm still thinking about WM2, but taking a detour because I feel like an idiot for not remembering Starrcade went all the way back to 1983 (although I think I got the first time on PPV right?). Anyway...

1983: Ric Flair vs. Harley Race (c) - Cage
1984: Ric Flair (c) vs. Dusty Rhodes
1985: Ric Flair (c) vs. Dusty Rhodes - The Rematch
1986: Ric Flair (c) vs. Nikita Koloff
1987: Ric Flair (c) vs. Dusty Rhodes - The Rubber Cage Match
1988: Ric Flair (c) vs. Lex Luger
1989: Ric Flair (c) vs. The Great Muta (or Terry Funk)
1990: Ric Flair (c) vs. Sting
1991: Sting (c) vs. Lex Luger
1992: Sting (c) vs. Vader
1993: Ric Flair vs. Vader (c)
1994: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Ric Flair - TITLE vs. Career Cage Match
1995: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Lex Luger
1996: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Randy Savage
1997: Hulk Hogan (c) vs. Sting
1998: Goldberg (c) vs. The Ultimate Warrior
1999: Goldberg (c) vs. Sting
2000: Goldberg vs. Scott Steiner (c)

Here is a fun one. The teams of the Crush Gals and Dump Matsumoto/Bull Nakano each worked three tag matches in the WWF in March 1986 on the Boston Garden and MSG shows (both shown live on TV locally), with a Poughkeepsie TV taping in-between. The Crush Gals' TV match was shown on the 4/12 Superstars and the Dump/Bull one on the 4/21 PTW. It is not unthinkable that they could have worked Mania as there was not a clashing AJW show as far as I can tell.. An 18-year-old Bull Nakano at WrestleMania 2. I could see Crush Gals/Velvet vs. Dump/Bull/Moolah as a special attraction match.

May 22, 2020 16:23:41 GMT 🤯 said:

Also, I feel like if we have access to Bruno Sammartino and Pedro Morales on this show... is there a better use for two former WWWF Champions than battle royal filler?

There is an argument to not use Bruno at all in the ring. After he retired in October 1981, he didn't wrestle again until March 1985 when he worked some tags with his son David in the failed attempt to get him over. Then in late 1985, he began a legend run as a headliner in those old big Bruno buildings.

Philly Spectrum
8/24/85: Piper vs. Orndorff with Bruno as ref - Piper hit Bruno with a chair and a post match brawl sets up a tag.
9/28/85: Bruno/Orndorff vs. Piper/Orton - Piper/Orton win by CO after Orton hit Bruno with a chair on the floor and the heels beat the count, setting up a cage match.
10/26/85: Bruno/Orndorff vs. Piper/Orton (cage) - Orndorff escapes for the win but it leaves Bruno alone and the heels beat him down post-match before Orndorff can get back in.

Pittsburgh Civic Arena
9/13/85: Bruno on Piper's Pit - Piper hits Bruno with a chair and chokes him with the mic cord before Bruno ultimately chases him away with the chair; would not surprise me if this was advertised as the main attraction even ahead of Tito/Savage IC Title.
10/5/85: Bruno vs. Piper - ends by DQ with Orton interference and David makes the save
11/8/85: Bruno/David vs. Piper/Orton - Bruno pinned Orton and Piper hit Bruno with a chair post-match but David saved him from a cast shot.

Boston Garden
11/9/85: Bruno on Piper's Pit
12/7/85: Bruno vs. Piper - Orton interference causes a DQ and beat down Bruno, if only he had a partner...
1/11/86: Bruno/Orndorff vs. Piper/Orton - Piper wins by CO to set up a cage match
2/8/86: Bruno vs. Piper (cage) - Bruno wins by escaping through the door.

Meadowlands Arena
12/9/85: Bruno vs. Piper - Bruno wins by DQ, presumably from Orton interference as this is the same pattern as elsewhere
1/12/86: Bruno/Orndorff vs. Piper/Orton - heels win by CO
2/3/86: Bruno/Orndorff vs. Piper/Orton (cage) - faces win the blowoff

WrestleMania, like SNME, is about the national product and fanbase. Bruno is the commentator on Superstars, he isn't that big of a deal to many of the new WWF fans. Him being dumped out unceremoniously from a battle royal probably is about right in that regard, as bizarre as that might sound. I don't particularly like the idea of doing it, even if it isn't going to hurt him in those buildings where you want him to draw beyond Mania 2.

He isn't going to be used in-ring on the TV product going forwards, so using him in a prominent spot/match is likely not good use of Mania exposure. Although Bruno/Pedro vs. Dory/Terry does sound really fucking cool, especially if it was somewhere like the Boston Garden. But if we are going to a single venue (we don't have to of course), Chicago works well as getting the Fridge just over 2 months after he won the Super Bowl with The Bears was a big get. With the three venues, they did draw over 40k fans but I don't know what ticket costs were considering it was only a third of a card each.

Pedro returned to close to a full schedule at this time, just working mid-to-lower card matches. But I don't think he was used much on TV at all. I have less issue with him just being in the battle royal and dumped out. At least have Studd do it and mention Pedro's WWF and IC Title history to put it over.

May 23, 2020 20:41:55 GMT 🤯 said:

1987: Ric Flair (c) vs. Dusty Rhodes - The Rubber Cage Match

A match that people have suggested before (I feel like Baker may have at some point) is Flair vs. Dr. Death in a unification match. JCP bought the UWF (rebranded national expansion attempt by Bill Watts' Mid-South) in early 1987 and they could've done an invasion angle, building to a big JCP vs. UWF Starrcade.

🤯 's Mania 2 chat got me on a SNME marathon the last couple of days. Smashed through the first 11, so here are some thoughts.

What a fun show and what a breeze to watch. 1 hour each. Lots of promos. Highlight packages to show feud histories or even just a package to get a grasp of the character since they assume new viewers are watching.

Some of the early shows had a theme. II has the Uncle Elmer wedding hook with the reception closing the show, including a Leaping Lanny poem! III has a Halloween theme with fancy dress and pie eating/bobbing for apple contests that are just an excuse for people to get covered in food (to Vince's amusement no doubt). 1985 Liz dressed as Jane, hot fucking damn. IV is in Tampa, so we get promos with people down by the pool and even a waterslide contest between JYD and Jimmy Hart.

Typically 4-5 matches and 20-30 mins of the hour being in-ring time, so matches are short and filled with gaga, such as interfering managers and people using their gimmicks. Not once was I thinking about star ratings while watching these, just having fun.

I love that 2/3 falls were treated as a Bulldogs speciality and deemed a "European rule" during this era. They defended their newly won titles against Sheik/Volkoff at SNME VI and then a rematch with the Dream Team at SNME VII, losing the first fall in both, causing Jesse to rage during that second match about how they'd have lost already if it wasn't European rules and we aren't in Europe!

The Steele feud was really important to establishing the Savage/Liz characters and abusive relationship dynamic. Liz caring for the simpleton George but scared of Randy's wrath. The King Kong/Beauty and the Beast imagery was perfect for this era WWF.

I fucking love the angle they did at SNME IV heading into Mania 2: the Peace match. In Geneva, on November 19-20 1985, US President Ronald Reagan and Soviet General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev met for the first time to discuss international diplomacy and the arms race. A NBC press release quoted Volkoff’s challenge:

In the spirit of the Geneva Summit, I am challenging this American warrior to wrestle, using only scientific techniques. It is my hope to show the superiority of the Soviet athlete using only peaceful means as opposed to the Star Wars brutality of Cpl Kirchner.

Then they wrestled a clean match with no strikes and clean rope breaks until Volkoff didn't break clean, dropped Kirchner's throat across the rope and landed a knee drop for the win. Great stuff.

The Haiti Kid has been involved in three pretty prominent matches. He had his head shaved by Piper and Orton to look like Mr. T heading into Mania 2, so accompanied him along with Smokin' Joe on the big show. He was then in Hogan and JYD's corner as the counterpart of the Funk Brothers' "120 lbs" manager Jimmy Hart at SNME VI. Then the Bundy/Hillbilly Jim 6-man at Mania III.

I like Bobby Heenan twice going to "the footage will show my guy won" in early 1987. At SNME IX, when they did the stereo escape and restart in the Hogan/Orndorff cage match, he was trying to use replays to show his man won. Then post-Mania III, at SNME XI, he is showing the failed powerslam nearfall and claiming Andre got the 3, is still undefeated and rightful WWF Champion.

1986-87 Kamala is a different level to 1992.