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Post by 🤯 on Dec 6, 2020 22:15:42 GMT
Yeah, I'm liking doing Bret/Savage and Perfect/Razor more. Do you still do a Hogan title switcheroo at the end? That seemed to be the hottest and almost most needed spot of the real show, echoing Big Pete's point. I do really like what you've laid out. Honestly, if we have to say adios to the guys who weren't in the fed anymore by WM9, I'm OK with the following tweaks: - Keep Bret vs. Yoko, as it's a better match than it had any right to be. Only change is have Yoko hit a leg drop after the salt to the face, and have Hogan take a little longer to come out. As it was, Yoko pinned Bret without finishing him, which felt weird. Salt blinds, so Bret should've still been able to kick out on instinct. But if Yoko crushes him with a massive leg drop after the salt... Makes much more sense. Then also gives a moment for Yoko's win to breathe afterward before Hogan comes down. - I think you'll be OK with this as the biggest proponent of the Savage WrestleMania IX story arc, Strobe -- Shawn defends the IC title against Savage, who agrees to defend Sherri's honor for old times sake now that they're both faces. Savage wrestles potentially his last WrestleMania match, with young cocky Shawn promising to put old stale Savage out to pasture. - Swap howdy doody Bob Backlund in for the gone Big Boss Man for a great contrast to Bam Bam Bigelow.
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Post by Strobe on Dec 7, 2020 1:03:51 GMT
Do you still do a Hogan title switcheroo at the end? That seemed to be the hottest and almost most needed spot of the real show, echoing Big Pete 's point. I think Bret/Savage, especially in a world where midcard Bret has actually now gone over Flair on TV at the Rumble, works well as a main and you don't need more. Bret/Savage after Bret/Flair at Rumble is a lot bigger than Bret/Yoko after Bret/Razor at Rumble. - Keep Bret vs. Yoko, as it's a better match than it had any right to be. Only change is have Yoko hit a leg drop after the salt to the face, and have Hogan take a little longer to come out. As it was, Yoko pinned Bret without finishing him, which felt weird. Salt blinds, so Bret should've still been able to kick out on instinct. But if Yoko crushes him with a massive leg drop after the salt... Makes much more sense. Then also gives a moment for Yoko's win to breathe afterward before Hogan comes down. Yoko went home early because he was gassed, according to Bret. The fact that he chose not to even get up to his feet and hit a move, but just pinned Bret off the salt, does give credibility to that story. - I think you'll be OK with this as the biggest proponent of the Savage WrestleMania IX story arc, Strobe -- Shawn defends the IC title against Savage, who agrees to defend Sherri's honor for old times sake now that they're both faces. Savage wrestles potentially his last WrestleMania match, with young cocky Shawn promising to put old stale Savage out to pasture. My problem with this is that Savage could put Shawn over big after putting over Bret, but if he puts over Shawn then he can't put over Bret. Shawn wasn't really in a spot to be beating Savage at Mania IX. Savage puts over Bret at Mania IX and then he moves down the card and he can put over HBK at SummerSlam 1993 or Mania X. - Swap howdy doody Bob Backlund in for the gone Big Boss Man for a great contrast to Bam Bam Bigelow. I almost don't want to do anything with Backlund on TV if there isn't a real plan to try to make that victory over him feel significant or put him in actual feuds. Just have him work the old buildings on house shows.
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Dec 7, 2020 13:19:02 GMT
Do you still do a Hogan title switcheroo at the end? That seemed to be the hottest and almost most needed spot of the real show, echoing Big Pete 's point. I think Bret/Savage, especially in a world where midcard Bret has actually now gone over Flair on TV at the Rumble, works well as a main and you don't need more. Bret/Savage after Bret/Flair at Rumble is a lot bigger than Bret/Yoko after Bret/Razor at Rumble. - Keep Bret vs. Yoko, as it's a better match than it had any right to be. Only change is have Yoko hit a leg drop after the salt to the face, and have Hogan take a little longer to come out. As it was, Yoko pinned Bret without finishing him, which felt weird. Salt blinds, so Bret should've still been able to kick out on instinct. But if Yoko crushes him with a massive leg drop after the salt... Makes much more sense. Then also gives a moment for Yoko's win to breathe afterward before Hogan comes down. Yoko went home early because he was gassed, according to Bret. The fact that he chose not to even get up to his feet and hit a move, but just pinned Bret off the salt, does give credibility to that story. - I think you'll be OK with this as the biggest proponent of the Savage WrestleMania IX story arc, Strobe -- Shawn defends the IC title against Savage, who agrees to defend Sherri's honor for old times sake now that they're both faces. Savage wrestles potentially his last WrestleMania match, with young cocky Shawn promising to put old stale Savage out to pasture. My problem with this is that Savage could put Shawn over big after putting over Bret, but if he puts over Shawn then he can't put over Bret. Shawn wasn't really in a spot to be beating Savage at Mania IX. Savage puts over Bret at Mania IX and then he moves down the card and he can put over HBK at SummerSlam 1993 or Mania X. - Swap howdy doody Bob Backlund in for the gone Big Boss Man for a great contrast to Bam Bam Bigelow. I almost don't want to do anything with Backlund on TV if there isn't a real plan to try to make that victory over him feel significant or put him in actual feuds. Just have him work the old buildings on house shows. Makes sense on Savage having to go through Bret first before stepping down to Shawn. Also, if not Bob Backlund then, in the version of not using anyone not with the Fed at the time, maybe just feed El Matador to Bigelow? Tito can still bump all around for Bigelow, making him look impressive, but is also worth nothing much at this point, so squashing him even worse than what he did to him in real life at WrestleMania VII doesn't feel like too much of a foul.
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Dec 7, 2020 13:59:48 GMT
WrestleMania IX
April 4, 1993
Caesars Palace
Las Vegas, Nevada
1.) The Steiner Brothers (Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner) defeat The Beverly Brothers (Blake & Beau)
--> Agreed on delaying this from the Rumble. Instead, have the Steiners in the Rumble match itself while Money, Inc. defends the tag titles against the Natural Disasters or Nasty Boys.
2.) Bam Bam Bigelow (w/ Luna Vachon) defeats Tito Santana
--> Just pair the Lunatic with 3B right away, fuck it. 3B kills off Tito, we somehow forget he was here in the late 80s, and the New Gen has one of its new big men monster heels established.
3.) Doink defeats Crush
--> Only edit from real life is shortening the ring time.
4.) Intercontinental Title: Tatanka (w/ Sensational Sherri) defeats Shawn Michaels (c) *TITLE CHANGE!*
--> Fuck it, why not? Trying to abide by a No Marty rule here. Sherri successfully costs Shawn, Tatanka's undefeated streak stays in tact with less of an asterisk, and we get at least one feel-good win on the card.
5.) The Headshrinkers (Fatu & Samu) (w/Afa) defeat The Nasty Boys (Brian Knobbs & Jerry Sags)
--> More changing of the guard to establish the monster heel tag team of the New Generation, setting the Shrinkers on more of an anticipated collision course with the Steiners.
6.) Lex Luger defeats Bob Backlund (3:45)
--> Apparently I can't keep Backlund off my TV & PPVs. Quick squash here. Perhaps a concussion from Lex's loaded forearm can be used to explain the later transformation to MISTER Backlund?
7.) Razor Ramon defeats Mr. Perfect
--> Debating flipping this result to set up Bret/Perfect for the world title at KOTR, and start Razor's losing streak that culminates with the 1-2-3 Kid loss.
8.) Yokozuna (w/ Mr. Fuji) issues an open Body Slam Challenge that ends in a no contest after a returning-from-injury Jim Duggan breaks his 2x4 over Yoko's back.
9.) Tag Team Title: The Mega Maniacs (Brutus Beefcake & Hulk Hogan) (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeat Money, Inc. (Irwin R. Schyster & Ted DiBiase) (c) *TITLE CHANGE!*
--> If Hogan's not leaving with the world title, he has to leave with some gold. Shenanigans in the finish lead to a RAW title vacation, and sets up Steiners vs. Money, Inc. at KOTR where Steiners pick up the belts.
10.) Giant Gonzalez (w/Harvey Wippleman) defeats Kamala (w/ Slick)
--> Monster mash mayhem!!! For the love of God, keep it short. Give GG a dominant win if we must to set him up as Taker's next monster to slay.
11.) The Undertaker (w/Paul Bearer) defeats Papa Shango
--> Clean pinfall for Taker if this is the feud ender. Otherwise, schmoz win to extend it. If it's the feud ender, maybe make it a voodoo coffin match?
12.) WWF Title: Bret Hart (c) defeats Randy Savage
--> Meh.
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Post by Strobe on Dec 13, 2020 16:50:47 GMT
2.) Bam Bam Bigelow (w/ Luna Vachon) defeats Tito Santana --> Just pair the Lunatic with 3B right away, fuck it. 3B kills off Tito, we somehow forget he was here in the late 80s, and the New Gen has one of its new big men monster heels established. It does feel like Tito could be used in this role. He was done with the Fed in the summer. I can see Lawler/Tito working. Lawler taking the piss out of Tito, his heritage, his outfit. Get some classic fiery Tito in the match before Lawler steals the win. 3.) Doink defeats Crush --> Only edit from real life is shortening the ring time. If we wanted to push the new gen idea, both of these guys should probably be winning against other people. If we wanted to make it a giant card with lots of shorter matches. The likes of Virgil and Repo Man are not long for this world. Berzerker and Skinner are another two who would leave close to Mania time. Just a bunch of people that next to nothing was done with in 1992. Virgil, Repo, Berzerker, Skinner, Tito, Duggan really. The last High Energy match was 3 weeks before Mania. Just to get the mind thinking of possibilities. If there are Bret/Lawler plans, I like the idea of doing Lawler/Owen. 6.) Lex Luger defeats Bob Backlund (3:45) --> Apparently I can't keep Backlund off my TV & PPVs. Quick squash here. Perhaps a concussion from Lex's loaded forearm can be used to explain the later transformation to MISTER Backlund? Backlund's run is so weird that rebooking is tough. But this would at least be better than the Razor match, as at least there is the gimmick of the loaded forearm involved. 7.) Razor Ramon defeats Mr. Perfect --> Debating flipping this result to set up Bret/Perfect for the world title at KOTR, and start Razor's losing streak that culminates with the 1-2-3 Kid loss. I would like to do Bret/Perfect. It isn't easy because I would like to do Razor/Savage at some point as well to blow off their deal. I would like to get Bret/Flair, Bret/Savage, Bret/Perfect, Bret/Razor, Flair/Perfect, Razor/Perfect and Razor/Savage all in. But there are problems with doing that. I like the idea of doing Bret over Flair then Savage then Perfect to put him strongly over previous gen stars. But Savage and Perfect are faces here, who admittedly can heel it up, but it still isn't ideal. I want to do Razor/Savage and Razor/Perfect, as story-wise those matches should have happened, but I wouldn't want Razor to job to either as he should be built up as a strong new heel to face Bret. But then why would Savage or Perfect get title shots if Razor has beaten them? 11.) The Undertaker (w/Paul Bearer) defeats Papa Shango --> Clean pinfall for Taker if this is the feud ender. Otherwise, schmoz win to extend it. If it's the feud ender, maybe make it a voodoo coffin match? I like it. Coffin match is the perfect way to write off Shango and giving it the Voodoo name and adding some gaga around that could make this match passable rather than bad. 12.) WWF Title: Bret Hart (c) defeats Randy Savage --> Meh. This feels like it could've been up there with the best Mania matches. Meh is not the reaction I would have. Especially since Macho could heel it up a fair bit. I can picture a spot involving the ring bell, calling back to the Savage/Steamboat feud and Bret/Piper the year before. Maybe Savage actually uses it, unlike Piper, but Bret kicks out and still wins. Maybe go full WWF melodrama. Savage uses it but has a change of heart, feels bad, doesn't make the cover. Allows Bret to recover and tries to apologise, Bret accepts the handshake but hits him with the quick small package for 2. Savage pops up and slaps Bret, Bret slaps him back and now both men are hot and it leads in to an intense finish before Bret wins with the Sharpshooter.
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Dec 13, 2020 17:57:05 GMT
2.) Bam Bam Bigelow (w/ Luna Vachon) defeats Tito Santana --> Just pair the Lunatic with 3B right away, fuck it. 3B kills off Tito, we somehow forget he was here in the late 80s, and the New Gen has one of its new big men monster heels established. It does feel like Tito could be used in this role. He was done with the Fed in the summer. I can see Lawler/Tito working. Lawler taking the piss out of Tito, his heritage, his outfit. Get some classic fiery Tito in the match before Lawler steals the win. 3.) Doink defeats Crush --> Only edit from real life is shortening the ring time. If we wanted to push the new gen idea, both of these guys should probably be winning against other people. If we wanted to make it a giant card with lots of shorter matches. The likes of Virgil and Repo Man are not long for this world. Berzerker and Skinner are another two who would leave close to Mania time. Just a bunch of people that next to nothing was done with in 1992. Virgil, Repo, Berzerker, Skinner, Tito, Duggan really. The last High Energy match was 3 weeks before Mania. Just to get the mind thinking of possibilities. If there are Bret/Lawler plans, I like the idea of doing Lawler/Owen. 6.) Lex Luger defeats Bob Backlund (3:45) --> Apparently I can't keep Backlund off my TV & PPVs. Quick squash here. Perhaps a concussion from Lex's loaded forearm can be used to explain the later transformation to MISTER Backlund? Backlund's run is so weird that rebooking is tough. But this would at least be better than the Razor match, as at least there is the gimmick of the loaded forearm involved. 7.) Razor Ramon defeats Mr. Perfect --> Debating flipping this result to set up Bret/Perfect for the world title at KOTR, and start Razor's losing streak that culminates with the 1-2-3 Kid loss. I would like to do Bret/Perfect. It isn't easy because I would like to do Razor/Savage at some point as well to blow off their deal. I would like to get Bret/Flair, Bret/Savage, Bret/Perfect, Bret/Razor, Flair/Perfect, Razor/Perfect and Razor/Savage all in. But there are problems with doing that. I like the idea of doing Bret over Flair then Savage then Perfect to put him strongly over previous gen stars. But Savage and Perfect are faces here, who admittedly can heel it up, but it still isn't ideal. I want to do Razor/Savage and Razor/Perfect, as story-wise those matches should have happened, but I wouldn't want Razor to job to either as he should be built up as a strong new heel to face Bret. But then why would Savage or Perfect get title shots if Razor has beaten them? 11.) The Undertaker (w/Paul Bearer) defeats Papa Shango --> Clean pinfall for Taker if this is the feud ender. Otherwise, schmoz win to extend it. If it's the feud ender, maybe make it a voodoo coffin match? I like it. Coffin match is the perfect way to write off Shango and giving it the Voodoo name and adding some gaga around that could make this match passable rather than bad. 12.) WWF Title: Bret Hart (c) defeats Randy Savage --> Meh. This feels like it could've been up there with the best Mania matches. Meh is not the reaction I would have. Especially since Macho could heel it up a fair bit. I can picture a spot involving the ring bell, calling back to the Savage/Steamboat feud and Bret/Piper the year before. Maybe Savage actually uses it, unlike Piper, but Bret kicks out and still wins. Maybe go full WWF melodrama. Savage uses it but has a change of heart, feels bad, doesn't make the cover. Allows Bret to recover and tries to apologise, Bret accepts the handshake but hits him with the quick small package for 2. Savage pops up and slaps Bret, Bret slaps him back and now both men are hot and it leads in to an intense finish before Bret wins with the Sharpshooter. Allow me to clarify my "meh". I think it was based off presuming Savage wasn't handled differently between SummerSlam 1992 and WrestleMania IX. He goes from being the only multi-time WWF Champion since Hogan to dropped like a bad habit so fast that it did kind of give him a stink. As did the finish of the 1993 Royal Rumble. This is all easily salvaged if we're not Vince in late 1992/early 1993. I'm thinking just keep the WWF title on Savage instead of having him drop it back to Flair. Savage retains over Flair in their WrestleMania rematch in the main event of Survivor Series thanks to backfiring interference from Perfect, prompting that split. At the Rumble, Savage retains over Razor... Perhaps via DQ or something so that we can revisit this feud later if we want. Meanwhile, underdog Bret outsmarts Yoko by eliminating him with a low bridge to win the 1993 Royal Rumble. Build to Savage/Bret has all sorts of callbacks. Similar to the Mega Powers imploding, Savage feels overshadowed and thus slighted and disrespected by the focus on the New Generation despite him closing in on another one year reign on top of the world. He starts edging heel. Love all the ring bell stuff Strobe proposed. Do that stuff. And all of a sudden I'm going from a meh to a fuck yeah!
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Post by Strobe on Dec 14, 2020 11:02:35 GMT
The more I think about it, I like my Bigelow as a street tough idea and him facing Bossman (who worked a WWF show 2 weeks prior) at Mania. I would even have Slaughter, who was playing a commissioner type role in late 1992/early 1993 as the guest ref. Bigelow can talk about his past in gangs, juvenile facilities, parents sending him to military school to try to straighten him, jail time. He can talk about how he has met bullies like Bossman, but he's bigger than this bully. He can attack him at some point around Rumble time and Slaughter breaks it up and suspends Bigelow. Bammer has met the likes of Slaughter before as well and Slaughter agrees to let Bigelow back to face Bossman but he will be ref to ensure order.
Bigelow wins at Mania, then you could move on to a Bigelow/Slaughter match at KOTR/June PPV. Slaughter wasn't working matches at this point, but I'm sure he could be convinced to put Bammer over in a built match to finish off his in-ring run. Post-match, Bigelow continues the beatdown before the save is made by Sarge's pal Duggan.
Then you build to Bammer/Duggan at SummerSlam and Bigelow goes over again (Duggan's last match was 2 weeks before SummerSlam). So Bigelow has basically put three stars out of the Fed in a row, in matches with stories and angles. And he himself actually has a character in the Fed now. He has the perfect look for a criminal character, with the tattoos and missing tooth, just make the attire more suitable. I think he was a punky character in Memphis, so it would be an extension of that. Luna fits perfectly into that with her look and the leather.
I was going to suggest having him win each of these matches with the top rope splash or even the moonsault and put it over as a killer, but we are doing the same with Yoko's Banzai at this time as a fat guy crush move, so maybe just stick with the diving headbutt.
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Dec 14, 2020 15:01:17 GMT
The more I think about it, I like my Bigelow as a street tough idea and him facing Bossman (who worked a WWF show 2 weeks prior) at Mania. I would even have Slaughter, who was playing a commissioner type role in late 1992/early 1993 as the guest ref. Bigelow can talk about his past in gangs, juvenile facilities, parents sending him to military school to try to straighten him, jail time. He can talk about how he has met bullies like Bossman, but he's bigger than this bully. He can attack him at some point around Rumble time and Slaughter breaks it up and suspends Bigelow. Bammer has met the likes of Slaughter before as well and Slaughter agrees to let Bigelow back to face Bossman but he will be ref to ensure order. Bigelow wins at Mania, then you could move on to a Bigelow/Slaughter match at KOTR/June PPV. Slaughter wasn't working matches at this point, but I'm sure he could be convinced to put Bammer over in a built match to finish off his in-ring run. Post-match, Bigelow continues the beatdown before the save is made by Sarge's pal Duggan. Then you build to Bammer/Duggan at SummerSlam and Bigelow goes over again (Duggan's last match was 2 weeks before SummerSlam). So Bigelow has basically put three stars out of the Fed in a row, in matches with stories and angles. And he himself actually has a character in the Fed now. He has the perfect look for a criminal character, with the tattoos and missing tooth, just make the attire more suitable. I think he was a punky character in Memphis, so it would be an extension of that. Luna fits perfectly into that with her look and the leather. I was going to suggest having him win each of these matches with the top rope splash or even the moonsault and put it over as a killer, but we are doing the same with Yoko's Banzai at this time as a fat guy crush move, so maybe just stick with the diving headbutt. I say diving headbutt with moonsault saved as a super finisher for once he finally makes his way up the card to become Taker fodder. I can see a finish at WrestleMania X: Diving headbutt, Taker sits up. Three diving headbutts in a row. Taker still sits up. Fuck it then... MOONSAULT! Taker sits up before impact; Bigelow crashes and burns, eating a stomach full of canvas; a recovering Taker goes for a Tombstone but Bigelow slips out and gets himself DQ'd with a fireball to Taker's face. Taker is out, presumed burned and injured until returning at KOTR 1994 to cost Bigelow a tournament match. SummerSlam 1994 sees the conclusion of the feud with Taker miraculously catching Bigelow mid-moonsault for a Tombstone before rolling his corpse into a ringside casket.
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Post by Strobe on Dec 14, 2020 19:09:16 GMT
Guy with flame tattoos on his head using a fireball works perfectly for me. Love it in fact. We are sorting Bammer out here.
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After they put the belt on Bret, he really should have been Warrior's replacement at Survivor Series. He had just beaten Flair, so put him in with the big boys. Perfect interference can accidentally cost the heels the match, starting the move towards his face turn. In a scenario like that, I'd have no problem running Savage/Ramon at the Rumble alongside Bret/Flair and having Savage win thanks to Perfect interference, protecting Razor. That match is ostensibly a #1 contender match, giving us Bret/Savage and Ramon/Perfect at Mania. In this scenario, we've now had Bret/Savage as a team at Survivor Series as the start of the build to their pals turned friendly rivals turned perhaps not so friendly rivals match.
I feel like Bret needs to be champ to make the jealousy/overlooked angle really work. Bret won the title that was stolen from Savage, then Bret steals his thunder in the tag at Survivor Series and is getting all the attention as if Macho is now an afterthought. Bret doesn't need to win the belt on a house show. It may even be better to do it at the Rumble after he's pinned Flair at Survivor Series.
And it isn't like Shawn gets left in the lurch, as on the same tapings where Bret won the belt, they did the Marty return angle, which aired a couple weeks later, a month before Survivor Series. So you can run Shawn/Marty I there.
I'm gonna try to flesh this out in a bit.
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Dec 14, 2020 20:17:43 GMT
Strobe, if we're giving ourselves more Marty in this alternate universe, an idea to run past you... Shawn/Marty I at Survivor Series 1992. Shawn's IC belt isn't on the line as he hadn't yet won the title when he signed the contract for this match. Plus the returning Marty wouldn't have been first in line for a shot anyway. Marty gets his feel-good pinfall win, but Shawn gets the last laugh as he's still IC champ. Since he got a pinfall win over the reigning IC champ though, Marty springboards up to the front of the line. We get Shawn/Marty II at Royal Rumble 1993... This time with the title on the line. Either through Sherriference or a double pinfall spot or a combination thereof, let's have Marty walk away as champ but thanks to a somewhat controversial win. Shawn claims screw job, proclaims himself STILL champion, and even goes so far as to commission his own duplicate belt. This sets us up for Shawn/Marty III for WrestleMania IX as the "first ever" ladder match to determine an undisputed champ. Since Bret/Shawn ran a ladder match in 1992 as a test for SummerSlam, it's not an unprecedented match type in 1993. Let's say Shawn wins and retains/reclaims the IC belt here after his insurance policy Luna Vachon neutralizes Sherri. Three matches back to back to back on PPV is hopefully mitigated somewhat by the inclusion of two title switches and escalating the gimmicks and gaga.
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Post by Strobe on Dec 14, 2020 22:40:37 GMT
We don't even need to give ourselves more Marty as such. I am not sure how I feel about doing 3 in a row with them or the first ladder match, but you have brought up the perfect way to make it work over two, with the first match not being for the title.
Run the angle as happened with Sherri getting hit by the mirror. Match gets signed for Survivor Series before HBK wins the title, so it isn't on the line and Marty wins the first match. He really needs to, but I don't want Shawn dropping the title. Now we can basically do the Rumble match as happened. Sherri is back from the mirror shot and accidentally costs Marty the match.
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Post by Strobe on Dec 15, 2020 23:13:24 GMT
More thoughts about 1993 WWF
I don't see Yoko in Bret's future in my rebooking that would be geared to go with him as the man. Bret may have gotten the best matches out of Yoko of anyone, but he feels like a perfect Hogan opponent, not as ideal for Bret. I prefer Yoko as a well-built monster to eventually face Taker. Really, nothing changes for Taker. It is just Yoko who doesn't the main event run.
After being put over stars of the past like Flair and Savage, Bret has newly-built heels Razor and Narcissist to work with.
I'm starting to rethink how to treat Survivor Series 1992. I can completely see why the surprise return of Perfect felt needed to make up for the loss of Warrior and the big Ultimate Maniacs team. I also don't like that they pretty much threw the gimmick of the PPV away. I don't have a problem with a few non-Series tags, after the first one was last year, but probably 3 at most - main event tag, Coffin match and Nightstick match. They should've been setting up Survivor Series tags. I am also considering keeping the belt on Flair.
Man, that did get tough trying to get enough guys that made sense with and against each other, even with all the new names coming in. The roster really was depleted with losing Warrior, Bulldog, Mountie, LOD, even Slaughter since SummerSlam.
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Post by Strobe on Dec 18, 2020 8:26:34 GMT
Do you still do a Hogan title switcheroo at the end? That seemed to be the hottest and almost most needed spot of the real show, echoing Big Pete 's point. Apart from to pop the crowd at the end of the show, I see no reason to do this. It is actually a horrendous business decision on the whole. It takes the WWF Title off the house shows. Hogan worked 8 WWF matches between Mania and KOTR (for comparison, Yoko worked 46) and all of those were tags with Beefer against Money Inc. Steamboat wanted some time off for his kid's birth while IC Champ, Vince took the belt off him. Hawk got a short suspension in early 1992, Vince took the tag titles off LOD. If anything, this shows how desperate Vince was that he let himself be convinced to do this. It also takes away building up a Hogan title shot as well. The main draw of Mania IX was the return of Hogan. You could just have him come out to help Bret and have a confrontation with Yoko to end Mania. I know Vince would always want Mania to end on a babyface win, well then don't book Bret/Yoko with Yoko going over then. Find another way around it. But Hulk going after the World Title was another PPV draw and it was thrown away by this quicky title change. Now Prichard claims this was the first time they were offering repeat showings of a PPV (I don't know if that checks out) and part of the thinking was to have something unprecedented to hype up to get people who missed out to order it after the fact. Then again, he also says some of the thinking was getting the belt on Hogan's for the European house show tour, even though that was late July/early August. If you are doing Bret to Yoko to Hogan, then Hogan should be winning the title at KOTR. You still lose the World Title on house shows for like 6 weeks, but you get Hogan challenging monster Yoko for the World Title as a draw for KOTR as opposed to Hogan defends against guy he beat in 5 seconds. Plus you get Hogan as Champ against Yoko on the European shows. Then you decide what to do at SummerSlam, most likely the KOTR deal. Yoko wins back the title and squashes Hulkamania, since Hogan wasn't jobbing to Bret and arguably should not really have been anyway.
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Post by Kilgore on Dec 18, 2020 20:16:58 GMT
As a genuine Yoko hater, may I suggest keeping Yoko away from the title picture forever? As a thought experiment, what loss is it to the WWF if Yoko never existed? You improve two Wrestlemania main events right off the bat. You lose the Lex Express deal, but like no one really liked that anyway, and its only mentioned as, "Eh, Lex, who was a terrible babyface at the time, should have gone over," mostly because Yoko sucked, so people are trying to talk themselves into the fucking Lex Express. Then there's Rumble '94 match against 'Taker, which everyone seems to like (you're all wrong), but isn't the beloved part all the heels aligning to kill Undertaker, then Undertaker dying and doing his whole dumbass supernatural shit? Does that even have to be Yoko as his opponent? I'm just saying, in rebooks from this era, don't be afraid to just pretend Yoko isn't there. Or reduce him greatly. Strobe did this beautifully in his WM9 rebook, but I might go further, just leave him off the fucking card. Did Yoko even draw? I can't imagine he did.
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Post by Strobe on Dec 18, 2020 22:37:06 GMT
I'm just saying, in rebooks from this era, don't be afraid to just pretend Yoko isn't there. Or reduce him greatly. Strobe did this beautifully in his WM9 rebook, but I might go further, just leave him off the fucking card. Did Yoko even draw? I can't imagine he did. I like Yoko, but he didn't need to be in the main event scene. I think he is a perfect Taker monster opponent. I like building him up over the likes of Quake and Duggan to ultimately face Taker in late 1993/early 1994. I think Yoko/Taker is supposed to have drawn well for that time period.
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Dec 18, 2020 22:48:56 GMT
This Yoko hate bums me out, but I also get it.
Really, the solution is to have moved heaven and earth to get Sid to stick around from 1991 through 1997 and be THE MAN.
Win win win for everyone. Especially Arn, who gets to avoid the sharp end of those scissors.
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Jan 7, 2021 19:48:42 GMT
Just thinking out loud, not sure where else to jot these thoughts down, but since they all always ultimately feed into rebooking ideas, might as well post 'em here...
1.) Hulk Hogan wins his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship on January 23, 1984 from transitional title holder The Iron Sheik. Hogan's first reign is as a face, results in the birth and wild success of WrestleMania, and lasts 1474 days.
2.) André the Giant "defeats" Hulk Hogan for his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship in VERY controversial fashion at the first-ever Main Event on February 5, 1988. André forfeits the title immediately after the match to Ted DiBiase. However, the title is later declared vacant since titles can only change hands by pinfall or submission in the World Wrestling Federation. A tournament for the vacant title is scheduled for WrestleMania IV.
3.) Randy Savage wins his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship at WrestleMania IV by defeating Ted DiBiase in the finals, thanks in part to an assist from former champ Hulk Hogan, whom Miss Elizabeth brings out late in the match to help neutralize André the Giant's presence at ringside. The Mega Powers are formed, but instead go by Macho Maniacs in this universe to pay lip service to new face champ Macho Man. Savage reigns just over a year, clocking 371 days as the longest transitional title holder in history up to this point.
4.) Hulk Hogan wins his second WWF World Heavyweight Championship at WrestleMania V after the Macho Maniacs implode then explode over various jealousies and insecurities. However, his fledgling Hollywood career is starting to take off and the WWF wants to find his successor just in case the Hulkster never returns from Tinsel town. So the WWF looks to the Ultimate Warrior, who's been reigning as undefeated Intercontinental Champion since August 29, 1988 and seems to be a great marketing play with lots of fan support and organic momentum.
5.) The Ultimate Warrior just barely defeats Hulk Hogan to win his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship at WrestleMania VI, ending Hogan's second reign just a day shy of the one-year mark. The epic clash of Titan Sports' two biggest titans takes a toll on Hogan, who takes a step back after such a draining defeat to let Warrior shine in the spotlight. Warrior vacates the IC belt and goes on to reign for 512 days as the new world champ as the WWF tries to cement his legitimacy as Hogan's successor.
This is clearly where we divert from actual events...
- The Ultimate Warrior retains the world title against former champ Randy Savage in a title vs. career match in the main event of WrestleMania VII.
- A recently returned Hulk Hogan wrestles on the highest billed undercard match against a recently returned heel Sgt. Slaughter. Instead of being a straight-up Iraqi sympathizer, Sarge just focuses more on SAWFT Americans. Sarge takes particular issue with fans dubbing Hogan a Real American over true Real Americans like Sarge. Plus, Hogan is a Hollywood softie! Etc. Etc. Etc.
- Looking to spike business, the WWF books the Ultimate Rematch to main event SummerSlam 1991 as the natural follow-up to the Ultimate Challenge. For such a big match with such critical consequences at stake, a special guest referee is clearly required. Newcomer face Sid Justice is assigned to the task. Since Justice is blind (and also big enough to not be intimidated by champion or challenger) he's well-suited to call things right down the middle. Anyway, this leads us to...
6.) Hulk Hogan wins his unprecedented third WWF World Heavyweight Championship by defeating the Ultimate Warrior in the main event of SummerSlam 1991. But Hogan's win is not without some controversy, as the REAL World's Champion Ric Flair makes his surprise WWF debut by interfering in the match and hitting Warrior in the face with the Big Gold Belt behind Sid's back.
- Warrior is PISSED. More pissed at Sid for missing Flair's interference than he is at Flair for interfering. Warrior confirms Justice is blind... BLIND AS A BAT! Warrior is supposed to enter a program with Sid, an potentially even turn heel, but Warrior works himself into a shoot and takes a hiatus after a dispute over his SummerSlam pay-off.
- With Warrior temporarily out of the picture, Hogan returns to business as usual from the late 80s. Even if it feels a bit same ol'-same ol' with some monster-slaying against the likes of Undertaker and the Natural Disasters, at least there's the option of eventually running a dream match in Hogan vs. Flair.
- Based on his claims of being the REAL World's Champion, and further claiming that Hogan wouldn't be on his third reign if not for Flair, Flair campaigns for a title match against Hogan. His campaign slogan is, of course, TO BE THE MAN... YA GOTTA BEAT THE MAN! WOOOOO!!! Never one to back down from a challenge, Hogan agrees to give Flair a shot... but Tunney is hesitant to book it for fear of legitimizing Flair's REAL World's Champion claims by naming him as number one contender.
- At Survivor Series 1991, Flair unofficially defends his unrecognized world title against old rival Roddy Piper. Meanwhile, Hogan just barely survives the Gravest Challenge against the Undertaker. After Hogan's title defense, Undertaker tombstones Hogan onto a steel chair. Then, to add insult to injury, Flair comes out and slaps a figure-four leglock on the ostensibly dead Hogan.
- Hogan sells the injuries and isn't cleared to compete at This Tuesday in Texas. Flair gladly slots into the main event to defend his unrecognized world title in an unofficial champion vs. champion match against Intercontinental Champion Bret Hart (who's reigned since defeating Mr. Perfect at SummerSlam 1991). Bitter ex-champ Perfect returns to the WWF as Flair's executive consultant to help ensure he retains against Bret. However, against doctor's orders, Hogan makes an appearance in the main event... Running in to help Bret fend off a Flair/Perfect double-team. Flair/Bret I ends in an inconclusive no-contest as a result of all the interference. But what triggered all the interference was the Hitman catching the Nature Boy in the Sharpshooter.
- Over the winter, WWF President Jack Tunney decides to settle this REAL World's Champion bullshit with an unprecedented idea for such an unprecedented situation. The REAL World's Champion will be determined in the 1992 Royal Rumble. The winner of the Rumble will be declared undisputed WWF World Heavyweight Champion. As the recognized current reigning champ, Hogan gets to enter as #30. For being a thorn in Tunney's side and creating this whole situation, Flair will enter as #1. If Flair is indeed THE MAN, going the distance shouldn't be an issue. Meanwhile, Flair blasts Hogan for his blatant Hogan favoritism.
7.) Ric Flair wins his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship by going the distance and winning the 1992 Royal Rumble by last eliminating defending champ Hulk Hogan, ending Hogan's historic third reign at 144 days... the shortest non-transitional reign to-date.
- We keep most of the real life beats, and set up the WrestleMania VIII main event to FINALLY get Flair vs. Hogan one on one as Hogan seeks to reclaim HIS belt. But by now, Flair has had enough of Hogan's bullshit and now has leverage as WWF Champ to call some shots. If Hogan wants a title shot, he's gotta put his career on the line... And it's gotta be a NO HOLDS BARRED match so that there will be no excuses after Hogan loses. A vengeful and overconfident Hogan agrees to these terms.
- Flair does the unthinkable and retains at WrestleMania VIII to ostensibly retire Hogan after Perfect interference and a surprising Sid heel turn. At least the Ultimate Warrior returns OUTTA NOWHERE to help save Hogan.
- Flair vs. Warrior for the WWF World Heavyweight Championship co-main events SummerSlam 1992 in England with Bret vs. Bulldog for the Intercontinental Championship as the last match main event. Flair/Warrior ends with Flair getting himself intentionally counted out after realizing there's no way he can beat Warrior. Bret drops the IC belt to Bulldog.
- Heat from the steroid scandal intensifies, and Warrior and Bulldog peace out prior to Survivor Series 1992... Throwing a monkey wrench into plans. The WWF looks to non-muscular Bret to be their second coming of Bob Backlund.
- To make the pivot make sense storyline-wise, world champ Flair takes issue with lesser champ Bret main-eventing the second biggest PPV of the year over him. And to make matters worse, Bret proved himself a loser in the process whereas Flair proved himself not only a winner but a very cerebral champion.
- Let's say this all plays into Survivor Series 1992, where Flair and Bret are on opposing teams. Flair captains a team including new Intercontinental Champion Shawn Michaels, WWF newcomer Razor Ramon, and Mr. Perfect making his long-awaited return to the ring. Meanwhile, Bret co-captains the face team with former WWF World Heavyweight Champion Randy Savage (who's had his own troubles with Flair in 1992 on the house show loops), the returning Marty Jannetty, and the returning former WWF World Heavyweight Champion BOB BACKLUND!!! a.k.a. Bret's spiritual predecessor.
- Miscues and tension abound in the match between Flair and Perfect. The selfish Flair essentially sacrifices Perfect, causing/allowing Perfect to be eliminated so that Flair can get the drop on Bret. But then yet another miscue between Flair and Perfect results in Bret becoming the sole survivor by pinning Flair with a small package counter to the figure-four leglock. The events and outcomes of Survivor Series 1992 sets Bret up to challenge Flair for the World title at Royal Rumble 1993. Meanwhile, since Perfect proved he's far from perfect in the ring anymore, Flair re-relegates him back to glorified cornerman status.
8.) Bret Hart wins his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship at the 1993 Royal Rumble by submitting Ric Flair with the Sharpshooter, ending the longest heel title reign of the "Hogan Era" at 371 days. The finish sees Flair begging Perfect for help reaching the ropes for a break or to intervene to cause a DQ. But Perfect turns face officially by opting not to help or interfere.
- Randy Savage wins the 1993 Royal Rumble, the winner of which gets a title shot at WrestleMania IX. Macho Man wins by last eliminating machismo-oozing Razor Ramon.
- The following night, face Perfect sends Flair packing back to WCW in the Loser Leaves the WWF match on RAW.
- Bret retains against Savage at WrestleMania IX in the greatest WrestleMania match up to that point in time. On the undercard, Hulk Hogan returns to the WWF (now that Flair is gone, his career-ending clause from WrestleMania VIII is voided) to partner with BFF Brutus Beefcake on the undercard against tag champs Money, Inc.
- Yokozuna squashes his way through the 1993 King of the Ring tournament (the first-ever to be featured on PPV) to earn a title shot at SummerSlam 1993. However, an overconfident Yoko puts his title shot on the line in an open body slam challenge on the USS Independence on Independence Day. After seemingly everyone else has failed, REAL AMERICAN Hulk Hogan arrives by helicopter and slams Yoko with ease to steal away the title shot.
- Bret retains against Hogan in Hogan's best non-Japan match at SummerSlam 1993. Hulk finally leaves the WWF for good after passing the torch to Bret.
- Champion Bret establishes his reputation as a fighting champion with all sorts of notable defenses on RAW to help establish the WWF's hottest new program. He retains against Perfect, Bigelow, and Razor so that we still get those IRL KOTR matches. He defends against Lawler and Doink so that we still get those IRL SummerSlam matches. He defends against heel Crush, each Quebecer, and even Yokozuna in the IRL WMIX match (but this time the salt results in a DQ). He retains against IC Champ Shawn in their IRL Survivor Series 1992 match.
- At Survivor Series 1993, world champ Bret captains a team of Hart Brothers against the heel Polynesian Powerhouses (Yoko, Crush, and Headshrinkers). Owen is the only Hart eliminated to set up that storyline. Bret submits Yoko with the Sharpshooter to score the final elimination.
- To smooth things over with Owen, Bret partners with him to challenge the Steiners for the tag belts at the 1994 Royal Rumble and prove themselves the best brothers in the WWF... Except they lose because of Bret's injured knee, and Owen kicks Bret's leg out of his leg because enough is enough! Meanwhile, still-heel Lex Luger co-wins the 1994 Royal Rumble match with last year's winner Randy Savage.
- WrestleMania X features an interesting series of matches. Lex will face Savage on the undercard to determine who will go on to face Bret for the title in the main event. To keep things fair, Bret will wrestle Owen in a non-title prelim. To give the champ a little bit of an advantage since he won't know his challenger until the very last minute, his warmup against Owen will go on first.
- Owen pulls the upset of the century in the GOAT PPV opener (up until Kurt/Rey at SummerSlam 2002) by scoring a pinfall on world champ Bret. Lex effectively retires Savage after three loaded forearm shots knock Savage unconscious. To get even more heel heat, Lex torture racks Savage's limp corpse... forcing special guest referee Mr. Perfect to award the match to Lex via TKO. In the main event, Bret retains against Lex by countering a torture rack attempt into a crucifix roll-up. We get the same ending, including disapproving Owen staredown.
- Bret retains against Lex again at King of the Ring 1994 when both men are fresh and only focused on one match. Meanwhile, Owen cements his claim of being number one contender and King of Harts by winning the 1994 KOTR tournament.
- Bret retains the title against Owen in their IRL SummerSlam 1994 cage match. As payback, Owen helps bring an end to Bret's 668-day reign at Survivor Series 1994.
9.) Mr. Bob Backlund wins his second WWF World Heavyweight Championship by defeating Bret Hart in controversial fashion in a towel match at Survivor Series 1994, after Backlund's cornerman Owen convince Hart family matriarch Helen to throw in Bret's towel after knocking out Bret's cornerman Davey Boy Smith. In reality, after 668 days as champ and face of the company, like Bruno before him, Bret wanted a break. But just a small one. The holidays at home.
10.) Bret Hart wins his second WWF World Heavyweight Championship by defeating transitional title holder Mr. Bob Backlund in an I Quit Steel Cage Match at the 1995 Royal Rumble. In the Rumble itself, good friends better enemies Shawn Michaels and Diesel fuck each other into both being eliminated. Owen ends up winning after skinning the cat and eliminating Bulldog.
- To settle their brotherly blood feud once and for all, the Bret/Owen WrestleMania rematch is made the first-ever Iron Man. Bret retains, 4-3, after 60 minutes of scintillating action. On the undercard, Diesel defeats Shawn to become de facto number one contender for the world title at the first-ever In Your House.
- Bret vs. Diesel goes to a no contest at IYH1 like their IRL Royal Rumble 1995 match due to all the outside interference. On the undercard, Owen reveals the returning Yokozuna as his surprise WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION to help him win the tag titles from Lex & Bulldog.
- Bret retains against Lawler at King of the Ring 1995 to finally end their rivalry. Diesel and a returning Shawn (now a face) back to being BFFs defeat Owen & Yoko for the tag titles. Bulldog wins the 1995 KOTR tournament and SummerSlam 1995 title shot, defeating former partner Lex in the finals. Intercontinental Champion Jeff Jarrett ends his rivalry with Razor Ramon in a cage after the 1-2-3 Kid turns on Razor, slamming the cage door on Razor's head.
- IYH2 sees Shawn defeat Double J for the IC belt, and Bret/Diesel II but this time as their IRL match from King of the Ring 1994 (just replace the Neidhart heel turn with a Bulldog heel turn). Meanwhile, Razor defeats Kid as payback for Kid turning on him.
- Three years removed, we get Bret/Bulldog II main-eventing SummerSlam. This time it's stateside with the world title on the line, and Bulldog as a clear heel. It's their IRL IYH5 match... An underrated, overlooked classic. On the undercard, we still get Shawn/Razor Ladder II for the IC belt, and let's say Diesel and Sid going to their IRL IYH1 no contest.
- IYH3: Shawn retains the IC belt against Bulldog, Diesel defeats Sid in their IRL lumberjack match from IYH2, Bret retains via escape against an Owen-managed Yoko in a cage.
- IYH4: An injured Shawn is forced to vacate both the IC belt and his half of the tag belts. Razor Ramon defeats Bulldog for the vacant IC belt. Diesel is allowed to pick a partner to replace Shawn in their pre-scheduled defense against Owen & Yoko. Diesel picks world champ Bret. Diesel jackknifes Owen to retain the tag titles and thereby make world champ Bret a tag champ now too.
- Survivor Series 1995: Bret, Diesel, Shawn, Razor, and Ahmed Johnson defeat Yoko, Owen, Bulldog, and Sid & Kid in a clean sweep because fuck it. Because he eliminated the most opponents, Diesel is rewarded with a third shot at Bret's world title at IYH5. Because of the fuck finishes to their past matches, this time it'll be NO DQ between the tag champs.
- IYH5: Bret retains definitively against Diesel in their IRL Survivor Series 1995 match. A frustrated Diesel turns tweener heel afterward.
From here on, we sync back up with real life until Bret drops the belt to Shawn at WrestleMania XII.
11.) Shawn Michaels realizes his boyhood dream by winning his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship in sudden death overtime of an iron man stalemate, ending Bret's 434-day second reign.
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Junior Member
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Post by kingoftheworld on Jan 9, 2021 0:30:32 GMT
I really wanted to re-book Wrestlemania 2000 because it was such a clusterfuck and letdown compared to other PPVs from 2000.
The only real rule was not to fantasy book and keep it realistic within what the storylines were, and if they were on the original card they couldn't be left off the new card. So just re-ordering the matches/participants basically. (The only exception was Mick Foley as I think he should have stayed retired after HIAC)
So this is what I managed to come up with
I kinda cheated by just having Rikishi manage and I left off Perry Saturn who could just go into the Hardcore Royal or manage Malenko I guess and be there to take a couple of Lita's moves.
The tricky part was taking Big Show out of the title picture and keeping him on the card. I did consider Kane/Big Show and Too Cool/DX, but then Kane is meant to have his blow-off match with DX at Mania, so I made it a Six Man tag with Rikishi managing, you can then have the original ending with the dancing/Pete Rose getting pummeled as well as Tori getting the stinkface.
I did consider throwing Ivory and Jackie into the BnP match and making it a regular tag, but it's the Attitude Era 
I would also have Chyna do her heel turn on Jericho at Mania rather than the next night.
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Post by Strobe on Jan 10, 2021 2:25:39 GMT
3.) Randy Savage wins his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship at WrestleMania IV by defeating Ted DiBiase in the finals, thanks in part to an assist from former champ Hulk Hogan, whom Miss Elizabeth brings out late in the match to help neutralize André the Giant's presence at ringside. The Mega Powers are formed, but instead go by Macho Maniacs in this universe to pay lip service to new face champ Macho Man. Savage reigns just over a year, clocking 371 days as the longest transitional title holder in history up to this point. As much as I completely get the idea behind Macho Maniacs, the Mega Powers is so ingrained that I can't picture them being called anything else. "The Macho Maniacs Explode!" Not feeling it. I don't really think of Savage's reign as transitional. His heel turn was the transition to me. Hogan's reign -Andre then vacation (transition) Savage's face reign -Savage heel turn and end of reign (transition) Hogan reign Ultimate Warrior, who's been reigning as undefeated Intercontinental Champion since August 29, 1988 and seems to be a great marketing play with lots of fan support and organic momentum. You'd have Warrior not drop the title to Rude then. Who does he face at SummerSlam 1989? He can't be taking on Rude again if he beats him at Mania. Hogan sells the injuries and isn't cleared to compete at This Tuesday in Texas. Flair gladly slots into the main event to defend his unrecognized world title in an unofficial champion vs. champion match against Intercontinental Champion Bret Hart (who's reigned since defeating Mr. Perfect at SummerSlam 1991). Bitter ex-champ Perfect returns to the WWF as Flair's executive consultant to help ensure he retains against Bret. However, against doctor's orders, Hogan makes an appearance in the main event... Running in to help Bret fend off a Flair/Perfect double-team. Flair/Bret I ends in an inconclusive no-contest as a result of all the interference. But what triggered all the interference was the Hitman catching the Nature Boy in the Sharpshooter. While I appreciate the idea of starting to mix Bret in with the main eventers at this point, I can't see any reason to do the TTIT experiment without Hogan. In order to see if this was a viable idea, you need to have a hot match involving Hogan. Over the winter, WWF President Jack Tunney decides to settle this REAL World's Champion bullshit with an unprecedented idea for such an unprecedented situation. The REAL World's Champion will be determined in the 1992 Royal Rumble. The winner of the Rumble will be declared undisputed WWF World Heavyweight Champion. As the recognized current reigning champ, Hogan gets to enter as #30. For being a thorn in Tunney's side and creating this whole situation, Flair will enter as #1. If Flair is indeed THE MAN, going the distance shouldn't be an issue. Meanwhile, Flair blasts Hogan for his blatant Hogan favoritism. I've sometimes toyed with making Flair #1 before, but I think #3 works well in giving him that uphill mountain to climb. #1 as a random draw would seem a bit contrived. Having Tunney make him #1? I'm not sure. Not sure it fits the time or Tunney. This is a while before on-screen meddling authority figures became the norm and might seem a bit too involved for Tunney. Plus, you take away the intrigue of where one of the top guys is going to end up in the Rumble, when the concept was still relatively new. It isn't like we have loads of TV to fill like from the late 90s-on, where you almost need to use Rumble positions as match stips to generate some meaningful matches. Let's say this all plays into Survivor Series 1992, where Flair and Bret are on opposing teams. Flair captains a team including new Intercontinental Champion Shawn Michaels, WWF newcomer Razor Ramon, and Mr. Perfect making his long-awaited return to the ring. Meanwhile, Bret co-captains the face team with former WWF World Heavyweight Champion Randy Savage (who's had his own troubles with Flair in 1992 on the house show loops), the returning Marty Jannetty, and the returning former WWF World Heavyweight Champion BOB BACKLUND!!! a.k.a. Bret's spiritual predecessor. I like getting Backlund involved here. He is such an odd case. It does feel like they should've tried to do something with him since they were bringing him in, but you could also argue that with where the company was going and how he hadn't been mentioned in almost a decade, they should've just used him as a special house show attraction in the North East. I think Backlund had some decent enough matches with Shawn in 1993. It feels he could've done similar with Flair and Perfect around this time. Imagine getting him to turn heel earlier in 1993? Maybe Vince gets face Hogan vs. heel Backlund 9 years after he wanted it. At Survivor Series 1993, world champ Bret captains a team of Hart Brothers against the heel Polynesian Powerhouses (Yoko, Crush, and Headshrinkers). Owen is the only Hart eliminated to set up that storyline. Bret submits Yoko with the Sharpshooter to score the final elimination. Now that's a great heel Survivor Series team. Feel you'd need to have Savage on the face side though. Interestingly, according the TheHistoryOfWWE.com (no idea of the source), on that October RAW taping where they did Crush's return and face-off with Savage, in an untelevised segment, Crush came out in his Demolition gear at some point. Wonder what that was all about.
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Post by Strobe on Jan 10, 2021 11:58:00 GMT
I really wanted to re-book Wrestlemania 2000 because it was such a clusterfuck and letdown compared to other PPVs from 2000. The only real rule was not to fantasy book and keep it realistic within what the storylines were, and if they were on the original card they couldn't be left off the new card. So just re-ordering the matches/participants basically. (The only exception was Mick Foley as I think he should have stayed retired after HIAC)
So this is what I managed to come up with
I kinda cheated by just having Rikishi manage and I left off Perry Saturn who could just go into the Hardcore Royal or manage Malenko I guess and be there to take a couple of Lita's moves.
The tricky part was taking Big Show out of the title picture and keeping him on the card. I did consider Kane/Big Show and Too Cool/DX, but then Kane is meant to have his blow-off match with DX at Mania, so I made it a Six Man tag with Rikishi managing, you can then have the original ending with the dancing/Pete Rose getting pummeled as well as Tori getting the stinkface. I did consider throwing Ivory and Jackie into the BnP match and making it a regular tag, but it's the Attitude Era I would also have Chyna do her heel turn on Jericho at Mania rather than the next night. This isn't the easiest Mania to rebook. I think doing Eddie/Jericho with the Chyna turn is a good addition, even though there would be a strong argument that Chyna should be in a match and the 6-person tag that happened let her and Eddie interact without it being a singles match. Radicalz were feuding with Rikishi and Too Cool at this time, so it gives options. There is definitely the option to run the No Way Out 6-man (Kishi/Too Cool vs. Benoit/Malenko/Saturn) and Y2J w/Chyna vs. Jericho here. I wonder if there was originally plans for Kane and two partners vs. X-Pac and Outlaws before Gunn got injured. Otherwise, what could've been planned for the Outlaws? Maybe they were going to be involved with the Hardyz, Dudleys and E&C and make that match a 4-way? Get a Dumpster involved in the match. Mania 2000 was really the moment that locked those teams together after the Hardyz/E&C feud the year before (especially the No Mercy ladder tag) and Hardyz/Dudleyz at the Rumble in the table match. So maybe Kane/X-Pac were going to get their big singles blow-off but that changed with Gunn's injury leaving Road Dogg out. I still like the idea of an Angle/Tazz blowoff, coming off their Rumble match. At least try to use that great first Tazz moment to do something. Angle is still pissed that this unfair loss is a blot on his record and he wants to rectify it. The titles do become a problem but then they don't, because they got passed around so much in 2000. I wouldn't want Eddie as IC at this point, as European was more suited to him at the time. Even if Eddie holding "Chyna's title" the IC would work to create tension between them, it is too early for that as that would be done in the summer. So I'd need to get the IC off Jericho and the European on to him in the build. But that isn't much of a problem when they had Jericho lose the IC and win the European in reality in that convoluted two-fall match at Mania just to do the title transitions they wanted. In all the TV between the Rumble and Mania, I could put the titles where I needed. This possibly takes away the short Eurocontinental thing for Angle that people love, but maybe not. I'd need to flesh it out. I've gone back and forth on the main event many times. I do agree Foley should've stayed retired. I have eased on my previously very rigid stance that retirement should mean retirement in wrestling, but it should mean retirement as a regular wrestler. Like other jobs, once retired, you may need to come back for occasional one-off work. Wait a while and then you can become a special attraction once every few years. Even in the hyper-accelerated booking of the Attitude era, the first Foley match back after No Way Out 2000 should've been the planned Mania X-Seven match with Vince. They definitely didn't need to make it a four-way for the McMahon in each corner thing. That still would've worked for a triple threat with Rock/HHH/Show. It still would've been a McMahon is each participant's corner. No one needed more Linda out at ringside. I get them not wanting to run Rock/HHH singles since they knew they'd need to run it for the next two PPVs. I still think they maybe should've, with the Vince turn at the end and save Rock's win for Austin's comeback next month. I don't have massive problems with getting Show involved, as it made sense story-wise and it would've given them a nice match structure that would set it apart from their singles matches to come. Have Show absolutely kill both men, make him look like the monster he should be. Eventually Rock and HHH make an unsteady alliance and have to team up to defeat Big Show. Then you get to run the latter half of a Rock/HHH match for the finish. Bossman/Bull and T&A were teams put together weeks before Mania. Feels like it should've been done after. Post-Mania is typically the team to start new things. Bossman & Albert was the team until Bull appeared and Test was involved with the Hardcore Title scene in early 2000. Do you just run Godfather/D-Lo vs. Bossman/Albert, cut the match in half and have the faces win (since both heels will get new partners anyway) to pop the crowd and get the hos to dance again in the ring? Amazing how little both D-Lo and Godfather meant at this point compared to the summer of 1999. Many fads in this era. Too Cool were outrageously over in this stretch and meant fuck all by the end of the summer really. Did Blackman/Snow ever go anywhere? Or did they just quietly separate in the summer? It feels like Snow's trying to embarrass Blackman should've led to Blackman turning on him and kicking the shit out of him. Didn't Moolah only turn on Mae like 2-3 weeks before Mania? Just after she gave birth to the hand. Did Val do anything between dropping the Euro Title to Angle and reffing the Cat Fight at Mania?
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Jan 14, 2021 1:25:58 GMT
3.) Randy Savage wins his first WWF World Heavyweight Championship at WrestleMania IV by defeating Ted DiBiase in the finals, thanks in part to an assist from former champ Hulk Hogan, whom Miss Elizabeth brings out late in the match to help neutralize André the Giant's presence at ringside. The Mega Powers are formed, but instead go by Macho Maniacs in this universe to pay lip service to new face champ Macho Man. Savage reigns just over a year, clocking 371 days as the longest transitional title holder in history up to this point. As much as I completely get the idea behind Macho Maniacs, the Mega Powers is so ingrained that I can't picture them being called anything else. "The Macho Maniacs Explode!" Not feeling it. I don't really think of Savage's reign as transitional. His heel turn was the transition to me. Hogan's reign -Andre then vacation (transition) Savage's face reign -Savage heel turn and end of reign (transition) Hogan reign Ultimate Warrior, who's been reigning as undefeated Intercontinental Champion since August 29, 1988 and seems to be a great marketing play with lots of fan support and organic momentum. You'd have Warrior not drop the title to Rude then. Who does he face at SummerSlam 1989? He can't be taking on Rude again if he beats him at Mania. Hogan sells the injuries and isn't cleared to compete at This Tuesday in Texas. Flair gladly slots into the main event to defend his unrecognized world title in an unofficial champion vs. champion match against Intercontinental Champion Bret Hart (who's reigned since defeating Mr. Perfect at SummerSlam 1991). Bitter ex-champ Perfect returns to the WWF as Flair's executive consultant to help ensure he retains against Bret. However, against doctor's orders, Hogan makes an appearance in the main event... Running in to help Bret fend off a Flair/Perfect double-team. Flair/Bret I ends in an inconclusive no-contest as a result of all the interference. But what triggered all the interference was the Hitman catching the Nature Boy in the Sharpshooter. While I appreciate the idea of starting to mix Bret in with the main eventers at this point, I can't see any reason to do the TTIT experiment without Hogan. In order to see if this was a viable idea, you need to have a hot match involving Hogan. Over the winter, WWF President Jack Tunney decides to settle this REAL World's Champion bullshit with an unprecedented idea for such an unprecedented situation. The REAL World's Champion will be determined in the 1992 Royal Rumble. The winner of the Rumble will be declared undisputed WWF World Heavyweight Champion. As the recognized current reigning champ, Hogan gets to enter as #30. For being a thorn in Tunney's side and creating this whole situation, Flair will enter as #1. If Flair is indeed THE MAN, going the distance shouldn't be an issue. Meanwhile, Flair blasts Hogan for his blatant Hogan favoritism. I've sometimes toyed with making Flair #1 before, but I think #3 works well in giving him that uphill mountain to climb. #1 as a random draw would seem a bit contrived. Having Tunney make him #1? I'm not sure. Not sure it fits the time or Tunney. This is a while before on-screen meddling authority figures became the norm and might seem a bit too involved for Tunney. Plus, you take away the intrigue of where one of the top guys is going to end up in the Rumble, when the concept was still relatively new. It isn't like we have loads of TV to fill like from the late 90s-on, where you almost need to use Rumble positions as match stips to generate some meaningful matches. Let's say this all plays into Survivor Series 1992, where Flair and Bret are on opposing teams. Flair captains a team including new Intercontinental Champion Shawn Michaels, WWF newcomer Razor Ramon, and Mr. Perfect making his long-awaited return to the ring. Meanwhile, Bret co-captains the face team with former WWF World Heavyweight Champion Randy Savage (who's had his own troubles with Flair in 1992 on the house show loops), the returning Marty Jannetty, and the returning former WWF World Heavyweight Champion BOB BACKLUND!!! a.k.a. Bret's spiritual predecessor. I like getting Backlund involved here. He is such an odd case. It does feel like they should've tried to do something with him since they were bringing him in, but you could also argue that with where the company was going and how he hadn't been mentioned in almost a decade, they should've just used him as a special house show attraction in the North East. I think Backlund had some decent enough matches with Shawn in 1993. It feels he could've done similar with Flair and Perfect around this time. Imagine getting him to turn heel earlier in 1993? Maybe Vince gets face Hogan vs. heel Backlund 9 years after he wanted it. At Survivor Series 1993, world champ Bret captains a team of Hart Brothers against the heel Polynesian Powerhouses (Yoko, Crush, and Headshrinkers). Owen is the only Hart eliminated to set up that storyline. Bret submits Yoko with the Sharpshooter to score the final elimination. Now that's a great heel Survivor Series team. Feel you'd need to have Savage on the face side though. Interestingly, according the TheHistoryOfWWE.com (no idea of the source), on that October RAW taping where they did Crush's return and face-off with Savage, in an untelevised segment, Crush came out in his Demolition gear at some point. Wonder what that was all about. Breaking up a quote for sectioned responses is too hard via mobile, but u wanted to get back to these very valid constructive criticisms, so hopefully yinz can bear with me... ///// I'm fine not calling Savage's reign transitional (except perhaps for the very tail end), but how wouldn't it be viewed that way considering it's coming off of Hogan's 4+ year reign and then getting dropped back to Hogan in a quarter of the time? It's arguably harder to buy the notion that the WWF is legitimately behind Savage as making him an alternate face is the company. But then maybe it just seems that way because he marks the transition from the long reigns to shorter ones? But then again, not as much in my universe which is all about fewer Title changes and longer reigns? Anyway, giving me Macho Maniacs as a branding/marketing/merchandising thing helps me feel like we're genuinely trying to establish Savage as a peer or at least 1b to Hogan or Hogan's 1a. Maybe we just don't ever put Mega Powers or implosions or explosions in the zeitgeist? Maybe I bill it by asking if the Mania can overcome the Madness!?!? ///// I'm thinking just feed a reheated Ted DiBiase or André to Ultimate Warrior at SummerSlam 1989. Why not? Beats squashing Snuka for DiBiase, and does André REALLY need to be in the second six-man tag on the card? I mean, I know he probably did based on his deteriorated physical condition... But whatever. Build storyline around either. DiBiase's failure to get his hands on the world title sends him after the IC belt next. His failure here causes him to say fuck it and commission the Million Dollar Championship? André's quick loss convinces Heenan the Giant can't be trusted on his own as a singles anymore, so he pairs him with Haku after SummerSlam and they find success as a team. Or worst case run Rude in a rematch with added stips to raise the stakes. Maybe Title vs. Mullet & Mustache to get Rude a haircut and a shave a little earlier? ///// Fair point on a Hogan-less TTIT, and I had the same hesitation as I was writing that out. What if then we run a tag as the TTIT main event? Hogan and Sid vs. Flair and Taker? Or replace Sid, if he's injured, with Piper? Even if it wasn't Flair across the ring from Hogan for the first time ever, the intrigue around infamous rivals Hogan and Piper teaming together for the first time ever surely helps sell tickets and PPV buys? ///// I'm okay with keeping the 1992 Royal Rumble as is but just making Hogan's world title on the line as a novelty. Flair still as #3 wins. I also hesitated here thinking it might be a little too Attitude Era for Tunney to become so involved. So, any issue with Hogan defending the world title in the Rumble just because, Flair winning it, and then Hogan/Flair 1-on-1 at WM8 as Hogan seeks to reclaim a title he technically wasn't pinned or submitted for? ///// Speaking of not pinned or submitted, getting Backlund to turn heel earlier is the stuff my wrestling dreams are made of. A heel Mr. Backlund run from late 1992 through early 1997 would've been LEGENDARY. As it was, I'm okay booking him more as the contrast to point out how young and cool the New Generation is. I like the idea of him being a bland white meat babyface good match machine until his heel turn in 1994... Drawing underrated classics out of Shawn, Razor, Flair, Perfect, Lex, Doink, Lawler, Yoko, DiBiase, IRS, Bigelow, and Diesel on RAW. ///// I think in this universe I might have to relegate Savage to commentary at Survivor Series 1993. I just don't see how he fits with four Hart brothers. Or perhaps we forego Savage/Crush altogether, and Crush's beef is with someone else? Tatanka? I don't know. I'm sure I could be convinced, but I'm also equally sure I could come up with something else just as compelling for Savage to be involved with at Survivor Series 1993.
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Post by 🤯 on Jan 14, 2021 17:19:56 GMT
Some real crazy alternative timeline thinking hinging around wanting to establish Savage even more perhaps... Everything the same up to WrestleMania IV. But there's no WrestleMania V faceoff when the Mega Powered Macho Maniacs implode/explode due to Savage turning heel. Maybe it's just a tense relationship like the friendship between face Sting and sometimes-heel Lex? Anyway... Instead of Hogan/Savage, let's run champion vs. champion a year early with world champ Savage defending against IC champ Warrior at WrestleMania V. Story is Savage has grown increasingly insecure and thus unstable because he's felt overshadowed by Hogan despite being world champ, and feels similar things toward Warrior who's getting an increasing fan following despite being the "lesser" title holder. Meanwhile, let's keep DiBiase built up a hit stronger in the wake of WM4. Perhaps he's the shit-stirrer that finally causes Savage to go full bore heel. Anyway, he becomes Hogan fodder at WrestleMania V in the alternate finish to WM4's tournament. Perhaps, with André banned from ringside or otherwise tied up with Snake and Studd, the Twin Towers (rebranded as Crime & Punishment in my universe) become DiBiase's hired henchmen monsters for harassing Hogan. WM5 now sees Hogan slamming an interfering Big Boss Man and One Man Gang enroute to finishing DiBiase with a classic big boot/leg drop combo. Then, in the *other* main event... Warrior dethrones Savage to become world champ a year earlier than in real life. Let's say sore loser heel Savage goes to attack Warrior after the match, maybe hit him with the title belt perhaps? But former world champ slash tenuous Savage friend Hogan comes out to stop Savage. A pissed off and outnumbered Savage retreats to the locker room in a huff. Meanwhile, Hogan shakes hands with Warrior and raises Warrior's arm to symbolically pass the torch. Warrior, now as the Hogan-endorsed world champ, vacates the IC belt. Warrior moves on to defend the world title throughout 1989 against the likes of Rude, André, DiBiase, Crime & Punishment, Bad News, and Perfect. Perhaps structure it such that after failing against Warrior, opponents move on to Hogan programs trying to reestablish themselves at Hogan's expense... Only to fail, of course. Meanwhile, Hogan continues to become more of a special attraction as he splits his time between wrestling and acting. Whenever asked if/when he'll try to challenge for the world title again, Hogan humbly replies Warrior is doing a great job of shouldering the burden of being of being world champ... Furthermore, Hogan notes Warrior is such an intense competitor that he's not sure he could survive the war no matter who wins the battle should he ever wrestle Warrior. Meanwhile, in parallel to all of this, proving himself the quintessential heel by lacking self-awareness of his hypocrisy, Savage moves on to try capturing Warrior's vacated IC belt. Let's say he beats Hogan's BFF Beefcake in some television tournament final. Meanwhile, he also blames Elizabeth for dividing his attention as world champ and thus costing him that title... So he ditches her, and then eventually takes on Sherri as his new valet. He dubs himself King of the Continents, and hence the Macho King & Sensational Queen are born. After running through all the same heels, Hogan ends up on a collision course with Warrior after all after winning the 1990 Royal Rumble and having the same interactions with Warrior as he did in real life. The Ultimate Challenge at WM6 now becomes the Ultimate Defense. Or fuck it, maybe we can still bill it as the Ultimate Challenge. Anyway... everything goes down the same except reverse the finish with Warrior kicking out a nanosecond after 3. Hogan has at long last reclaimed his rightful crown as world champ. On the undercard, IC King Savage can defend against and drop the belt to commoner Dusty Rhodes, or Roddy Piper, or @whocares. The key is to contrast Savage's results and trajectory against Hogan's. Savage has suffered defeat and lost titles at two WrestleManias in a row whereas Hogan arguably stole his spotlight at WM5 and then beat the man who beat Savage to win the world title at WM6. Also important, the delusional Savage still claims to be king. But now instead of King of the Continents, he ups the ante to proclaim himself King of the WWF. And he views any claim Hogan had to royalty --whether from his Royal Rumble win, or reclaiming the world title-- as an unforgivable affront to his reign. So, we FINALLY get the Mega Powered Macho Maniacs imploding/exploding in a good friends, better enemies deal three years in the making at WrestleMania VII. To get there, a hellbent Savage makes all sorts of royal decrees and proclamations. He declares he'll win the 1991 Royal Rumble to reaffirm the legitimacy of his crown, and then he does so. But since a Rumble win doesn't yet guarantee a WrestleMania world title shot, Savage leverages the big victory to call out Hogan. Savage says the kingdom is only big enough to be ruled by one true king. So Savage puts his career on the line, and Hogan/Savage becomes title vs. career. WM7 goes down the same, just replacing Warrior with Hogan and making it a main event title match. Elizabeth reunion afterward. Meanwhile, former world champ Warrior can squash Earthquake or something. Anyway... Savage rides off into the sunset for a bit as a face. Hogan's second reign stretches into its second year with fresh new challengers coming in the forms of Sgt. Slaughter, heel Jake, the Undertaker, possibly Sid, and REAL World's Champion Ric Flair. Now we tie back into my previously outlined alternate timeline with Hogan just defending the world title in the 1992 Royal Rumble instead of it being for the vacant belt. Flair wins, ending Hogan's second reign at a much more impressive 1 year 10 months, to set up Hogan/Flair in the main event of WrestleMania VIII. I'm thinking this version of WM8 goes exactly as per Strobe's perfect rebooking. Flair walks out still the champ, but a returning Warrior helps make the post-match save. Fans go home happy(ish) thanks to the show ending with a Hogan/Warrior posedown callback to WM5 in this universe. Flair retains against Warrior at SummerSlam, and holds onto the title in Saskatchewan. Flair heads into Survivor Series where it's supposed to be him (as reigning champ) and Razor against the Macho Warriors... But Warrior warriors, and Perfect turns face to be Savage's partner. We get a more conclusive finish with Savage countering Flair's figure four into an inside cradle. Having a pinfall over the reigning champ, Savage gets his title shot at the 1993 Royal Rumble. At long last we get our IRL Flair/Savage match from WM8. Just several months deferred, and with the Liz elements slightly altered since she's now out of the picture. Perhaps Flair hinting at a past fling, deriding Savage for not being able to father children with Liz, and letting their marriage hit the rocks. Some real shoot shit to get that nuclear heat. Savage gets his cathartic title win at the Rumble after Perfectference costs Flair. Meanwhile, the Rumble match itself is now officially for a WrestleMania title shot. A vengeful Flair causes Perfect's Elimination, so they blow their issue off the next night on RAW with Loser Leaves the WWF stipulations. Unless I want to give myself Flair through WM9... But right now, I'm not. Anyway... Bret Hart wins the Rumble after using his smarts to last eliminate a charging Yokozuna with a low bridge. Savage's second reign becomes purely transitional now, but at least it's still sort of an honor to have two world title reigns in this universe. He drops the belt to Bret in an epic last hurrah in the main event of WM9 to help usher in the New Generation. Then the rest is synced back up with what I posted before.
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Post by Strobe on Jan 15, 2021 9:01:44 GMT
Breaking up a quote for sectioned responses is too hard via mobile, but u wanted to get back to these very valid constructive criticisms, so hopefully yinz can bear with me... It is a pain in the arse on the phone. I'm fine not calling Savage's reign transitional (except perhaps for the very tail end), but how wouldn't it be viewed that way considering it's coming off of Hogan's 4+ year reign and then getting dropped back to Hogan in a quarter of the time? It's arguably harder to buy the notion that the WWF is legitimately behind Savage as making him an alternate face is the company. But then maybe it just seems that way because he marks the transition from the long reigns to shorter ones? But then again, not as much in my universe which is all about fewer Title changes and longer reigns? Savage's reign absolutely is part of the transition between two Hogan reigns that they'd have preferred not to break up. But in the WWF, from NWA breakaway up until this point, you always had heel transition reigns between longer face reigns. Andre/vacation was used to get the belt between Hogan and Savage. Then Savage's heel turn to get the belt between face Savage and Hogan. Just the way I view it in my head. Anyway, giving me Macho Maniacs as a branding/marketing/merchandising thing helps me feel like we're genuinely trying to establish Savage as a peer or at least 1b to Hogan or Hogan's 1a. Maybe we just don't ever put Mega Powers or implosions or explosions in the zeitgeist? Maybe I bill it by asking if the Mania can overcome the Madness!?!? I don't know if we need to be trying to establish Savage as absolutely a peer. I think they did a pretty good job of making him 1b to Hogan's 1a. Savage would absolutely certainly not have gotten the Title if Honky agreed to drop the IC to him at The Main Event in Feb 1988. But after that incident and the desire to have the World Title for as many house shows as possible (with Hogan off to film No Holds Barred), the decision was made to go with Savage, rather than DiBiase or sticking with Hogan. I'm thinking just feed a reheated Ted DiBiase or André to Ultimate Warrior at SummerSlam 1989. Why not? Beats squashing Snuka for DiBiase, and does André REALLY need to be in the second six-man tag on the card? I mean, I know he probably did based on his deteriorated physical condition... But whatever. Build storyline around either. DiBiase's failure to get his hands on the world title sends him after the IC belt next. His failure here causes him to say fuck it and commission the Million Dollar Championship? André's quick loss convinces Heenan the Giant can't be trusted on his own as a singles anymore, so he pairs him with Haku after SummerSlam and they find success as a team. Or worst case run Rude in a rematch with added stips to raise the stakes. Maybe Title vs. Mullet & Mustache to get Rude a haircut and a shave a little earlier? DiBiase is definitely an option after winning his feud over Hercules in late 1988 - early 1989. I like the idea of failing to get World and IC before moving towards Million $ Title creation. DiBiase took on Snuka because he was in a feud with Jake (which made sense due to the interaction during Jake/Andre) and Jake was hurt for most of the summer. The Snuka match was just filler until Jake was back and that feud would carry through until Mania. Andre was paired up with Studd post-Mania and they also ran Andre/Haku vs. Studd/Duggan matches. So Andre and Duggan being across from each other at SummerSlam made sense and pairing it up with the Demo vs. Twin Towers feud helped protect Andre's limitations. Although I would've preferred to get that tag match alone in a PPV setting. It was also the start of moving towards Demo vs. Colossal Collection in the winter. Warrior/Andre was the autumn feud, with Warrior beating him on the Oct SNME and them squaring off at the Survivor Series. They were working their 30-second matches on house shows as early as July and I can see it being cool to have squash Andre one year after he squashed Honky. You could then tease a squash over whoever he faces the next year but he misses the splash. But I don't think I'd want to be squashing Andre on TV when he still had value. Fair point on a Hogan-less TTIT, and I had the same hesitation as I was writing that out. What if then we run a tag as the TTIT main event? Hogan and Sid vs. Flair and Taker? Or replace Sid, if he's injured, with Piper? Even if it wasn't Flair across the ring from Hogan for the first time ever, the intrigue around infamous rivals Hogan and Piper teaming together for the first time ever surely helps sell tickets and PPV buys? TTIT itself was an experiment. Would the title switch back-and-forth with Taker even happen without wanting to test out the new PPV? Possibly not. I don't know how far out they knew what was happening with Hogan and wanting to put the title on Flair. If Hogan is keeping the title, then you don't need to run TTIT. I'm okay with keeping the 1992 Royal Rumble as is but just making Hogan's world title on the line as a novelty. Flair still as #3 wins. I also hesitated here thinking it might be a little too Attitude Era for Tunney to become so involved. So, any issue with Hogan defending the world title in the Rumble just because, Flair winning it, and then Hogan/Flair 1-on-1 at WM8 as Hogan seeks to reclaim a title he technically wasn't pinned or submitted for? I'm not quite sure how I feel about Hogan's title being put up in this scenario anyway. Surely Tunney would just make it WWF Champion vs. Real World Champion to solve the issue? In terms of storyline, that feels like what it should have been. It isn't nice to lose such an iconic moment as Flair winning the title at the Rumble, but it could've just been Flair winning the Rumble with Hogan defending the title on the show (maybe a Taker gimmick rematch after a controversial finish at Survivor Series). A Flair that has been built strongly. That has beaten Piper at Survivor Series. Who claims Tunney won't give him his deserved title shot. Who says he will prove he deserves it by winning the Rumble. It wouldn't be officially to get him a title shot or for the title, so you don't get Heenan's incredible commentary, but I'm sure he'd still play it up a lot. Make you believe that they believe this will earn him a title shot. I think in this universe I might have to relegate Savage to commentary at Survivor Series 1993. I just don't see how he fits with four Hart brothers. Or perhaps we forego Savage/Crush altogether, and Crush's beef is with someone else? Tatanka? I don't know. I'm sure I could be convinced, but I'm also equally sure I could come up with something else just as compelling for Savage to be involved with at Survivor Series 1993. It doesn't need to be the Hart Brothers to do the Owen turn. It was only the brothers because Bret was feuding with Lawler and King was always shitting on the family. Without it being a booked match against Lawler, we don't need Keith or Bruce (or do we always need more Bruce?) at all.
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Post by Strobe on Jan 16, 2021 10:04:50 GMT
Some real crazy alternative timeline thinking hinging around wanting to establish Savage even more perhaps... You want to establish Savage even more and instead of giving him the huge Mega Powers turn angle on The Main Event II, the monstrous Mania V main with Hogan and the entire 1989-90 run with Hogan (highest money drawing house show run in WWF history, highest drawing SummerSlam main until the Highway to Hell, No Holds Barred standalone PPV match, The Main Event III match with Mike Tyson Buster Douglas as ref), you are having him drop the belt to Warrior at Mania V, when many would say he wasn't even ready for the top spot when he got it a year later? You did cleverly include the bolded word I guess!
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Post by 🤯 on Jan 16, 2021 14:55:03 GMT
Some real crazy alternative timeline thinking hinging around wanting to establish Savage even more perhaps... You want to establish Savage even more and instead of giving him the huge Mega Powers turn angle on The Main Event II, the monstrous Mania V main with Hogan and the entire 1989-90 run with Hogan (highest money drawing house show run in WWF history, highest drawing SummerSlam main until the Highway to Hell, No Holds Barred standalone PPV match, The Main Event III match with Mike Tyson Buster Douglas as ref), you are having him drop the belt to Warrior at Mania V, when many would say he wasn't even ready for the top spot when he got it a year later? You did cleverly include the bolded word I guess! I'm chuckling so much right now. Touchė!
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Post by Strobe on Jan 17, 2021 0:10:28 GMT
The chat about Warrior's opponents in 1989 got me looking at the 1989 Survivor Series and odd choices that were made with the opposing tag teams. Demolition were feuding with the Brain Busters in the autumn and were going to be moving on to the new Heenan Family team of the Colossal Connection. So you would've expected to see them on the Ultimate Warrior's team up against Andre, Haku, Arn and Tully. Instead they were on Hogan's team, opposite the Powers of Pain, when their feud had finished at Mania. This meant that they placed The Rockers, who were finishing up their feud with the Rougeaus, opposite the Brain Busters, another feud that had finished up early in the year. The Rougeaus were placed opposite the Bushwhackers, who they'd had a brief house show run with in Feb and March and faced at Mania, and who it seemed like they were going to be feuding with post-Series until they left. Also of note on the original card, is: - Bret and Anvil were split. This wasn't too unusual, as while they were typically portrayed as a team on TV, Bret had already had those house show singles run post Mania IV and V with Bad News and Perfect respectively where they didn't fully commit to him. - New boy "The Widowmaker" Barry Windham was originally (replaced by Earthquake after he left) in the King's Court before he abruptly left and in the promos heading in, he was positioned as Bret's counterpoint. Could we have gotten some Bret/Windham matches in late 1989/early 1990? Now those could've been great. - Akeem was originally on Bossman's team as you'd expect, before he got injured. They replaced him with Bad News, who originally was not going to be on the card, to play up his angry, hates everybody, wants no teammates persona that they did the previous year. Instead they just repeated that on this show. ---------------------------------------- You could just switch Demo and the Rockers (who would be moving on to feuding with PoP after Series) or also switch the Bushwhackers to get the tag teams up against their current feuds. But for a bit of fun, I want to try to "tidy" the card up a touch, in terms of past, current and future feuds. This was the first Survivor Series to move to teams of 4 and use team names.  Clearly Demolition should have been on Warrior's team against the Heenan Family. I know it loses us maybe the coolest Survivor Series team ever (above), but these sacrifices have to be made. Haku didn't really have any feuds or angles after his Duggan deal wrapped up in the summer. On TV, they started establishing him and Andre as a team and on house shows, he'd work Tito, Hercules, Anvil and others. Based on what I need to do below, Anvil works best here, split from Bret. We have Warrior/Anvil/Ax/Smash vs. Andre/Haku/Arn/Tully. Hogan's opposite Zeus couldn't be a team captain and I get why rather than run Savage in the Hogan match, they decided to do something a bit different. They had DiBiase hire Zeus for his SNME challenge of Hogan and be the team captain, letting you have Savage be a team captain, opposite his new feud. Savage, while still feuding with Hogan, had also began feuding with Duggan over the Crown. I'm going to have them in the same match though. Beefer, who was also feuding with Savage/Zeus, needs to be in here too. The two open heel spots seem obvious. The men who will be feuding with Hogan and Beefer over the winter, Mr. Perfect and The Genius. Any excuse to get The Genius (who read a poem before the SummerSlam main and at Savage's coronation) involved with his brother works for me as well. Perfect was feuding with Snuka, so we are set as Hogan/Duggan/Beefer/Snuka vs. Savage/Zeus/Perfect/Genius. I understand the idea of not wanting to give away involvement before a feud begins, but I like this teasing Hogan/Perfect and acting as an obvious bridge into that program. I also understand wanting to spread your big stars among the matches and this hurts that. Roddy's Rowdies vs. Rude's Brood is still a definite with Piper and Rude feuding. The Rougeaus seem an ideal team to be on Rude's side, so they stay, bringing their rivals The Rockers to Piper's team. Martel fits well with those heels too, so we get Piper/Tito/Marty/Shawn vs. Rude/Martel/Jacques/Raymond. Considering that they will be interacting in a couple of months with the Bossman face turn, I like the idea of DiBiase and the Twin Towers on the same team, which brings Jake and Dusty on to the face side. I feel like I'd need to make this co-captains with Dusty, Jake, DiBiase and Bossman. Akeem did not really have his own feud at this time, basically being Bossman's aid in the Dusty feud. He did work some house show matches with Hillbilly Jim close to Survivor Series, so he can work on the face side. Jim is a weird one around this period. He was over, still featured on TV, but never really given any feuds. Koko was similar and I might need him here - he was fired in October, but rehired just after the Series. I like Bad News being a loner. Once Windham leaves, I'd need someone to take his spot and DiBiase having to pay Brown to be his replacement works character wise. Gives me Dusty/Jake/Hillbilly/Koko vs. DiBiase/Bossman/Akeem/Windham Brown, which I'm not overall the happiest with. I like the idea of Jimmy Hart's men being together: Valentine, Honky, Bravo and new boy Quake. Did Jimmy ever use the First Family name for his stable in the WWF? It doesn't ring a bell. Valentine was in a long feud with Garvin and Honky was working with Rooster on house shows. Honky/Valentine would start teaming regularly early the next year. Bravo worked some house shows with Bret in October and Bravo/Valentine worked tags against the Hart Foundation in the summer so they make sense on the face side, with all their Jimmy Hart history as well. Hercules' main house show opponent throughout the summer was Bravo. Plus, I like the idea of teaming him up with Roma, who he would form a team with in a few months. Have them work some double team spots with commentary mentioning a natural chemistry. Without Anvil, it wouldn't feel awkward having Bret be solo team captain, although he does feel a bit small time at this point to be a captain. This match does let Bravo be a team captain and to survive (along with Quake), to build him up for his upcoming IC Title run against Warrior though. So let's say Bret/Garvin/Hercules/Roma vs. Bravo/Honky/Valentine/Quake. So I've got the PoP vs. Whackers feud completely left out here, so this isn't working out too well. Maybe I need to make it TEAMS OF FIVE STRIVE TO SURVIVE~! as the Survivor Series should've remained! I'd need to drop four workers I have here, which wouldn't be difficult. Genius could just be on the outside like on the actual show. Hillbilly, Koko and Roma are fillers. I could delay Quake's debut, where him and Bravo tricked and attacked Warrior, to after the Survivor Series. To be returned to, maybe.
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Post by Strobe on Jan 24, 2021 22:18:25 GMT
I just realised that a great match that we could've had at Mania VIII was HBK/Owen. The situation with Jannetty may have actually been a blessing, as that was a violent angle where it was believable that Marty would be gone for almost a year. Since HBK was going to be getting put over after the turn, it meant Marty didn't have to lose to him and could actually beat him when he returned. And it gave us that excellent return angle with the mirror spot. HBK was going to be feuding with Bret coming out of Mania, so facing Owen naturally feeds into that and could've been a very good Mania opener. It does fuck over my 8-man tag. I don't know who I could get to take Owen's spot opposite Mountie (who had just been feuding with Bret). Probably just Owen's new partner Koko.
I don't know if it was possible to get it sorted so quick with all that was going on, but they really should've made HBK/Owen happen at DX IYH . It could've been at the Rumble, but the casket match does a good job of wrapping up HBK/Taker and escalating Taker/Kane.
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Post by Strobe on Jan 30, 2021 15:51:07 GMT
Been thinking about Mania X. Luger/Yoko and Bret/Owen were a given based on how things had been set up and since Lex's balls had been chopped off as a face at SummerSlam, doing the joint-Rumble winner and multiple title matches was a great solution.
Razor/HBK was another given, long-standing feud with the "real" champion angle. Did they ever give a reason for it being a ladder match? It was always a cool visual with both belts up there, but they could've just done something simple, like a Shawn and Diesel sneak attack backstage and they smash Razor with a ladder that was nearby, prompting Razor to challenge them to get a ladder involved in the match.
Savage/Crush was also a lock as a match, just needs to have the gimmick changed. Could be just a normal match or no DQ or if you make it Falls Count Anywhere, just have it be a standard one, not some bullshit Texas Death Match variant.
A Bigelow/Doink blowoff was another given and, while I like the idea of doing Blayze/Luna, the mixed tag is a spectacle type match that suits Mania and gives the card something different with a bit of comedy, so I see the benefit of doing it.
I like the idea of doing Blayze/Kai more than the reality of how it turned out. It is a nice callback to Mania I in the same building and works well conceptually on a night that was supposed to kick start the New Generation. They should've at least had Kai have a squash on TV going in and have her cut one short promo about the new generation of women's wrestlers not holding a candle to her and she is back to win the title again at MSG. Show clips of her involvement with Lauper at Mania I on the show before the match. Maybe even have Moolah (who was at ringside) as her manager or get her involved in a spot, either for or against Kai. Just give the match something to help.
What was the plan for Borga? He was supposed to have his rematch with Tatanka at the Rumble? Was Tatanka going to get his win back or was Borga going over again? Has anyone ever heard about the plan here? It really feels like a match they should have been saving for Mania anyway, as what was going to be scheduled with Tatanka without it as an option? Probably what we got, a 10-man (that was ultimately cancelled) because his feud with I.R.S. had just started and it was not the time for a singles match. It makes even more sense when you could do Tatanka/Borga interaction in the Rumble and save the singles rematch for the big show. The fact that Borga ended up getting booked against Quake makes me assume his ankle recovered in time but he just didn't want to do a quick job to Quake. Would he be happy to get the bigger payday associated with facing Tatanka? If not, we could just move Kwang (who was billed from Japan and made sense as a Yoko pal) in as his replacement, as was done on house shows. But would maybe have to do a non-finish since Kwang was so early in his run.
How far out did they know Taker wanted time off? Speaking of which, after Tatanka was injured in the manner he was and Taker took his place at Survivor Series, it really was terrible that Luger, Tatanka and the Steiners at least didn't come out to try to help him at the Rumble when it was a 9-on-1 attack. It really wouldn't have hurt Taker to have just some Fuji and Cornette interference lead to an urn shot to the head and like 5 Banzai Drops in a row to finish that match.
Since they knew the Steiners weren't happy and likely on the way and the heels were leaving Mania with the titles, they should've just ran a Quebecers/Steiners blowoff, rather than beating MoM, who you could heat up later in the year if you wanted.
The Headshrinkers were about to turn face and challenge the Quebecers for the titles and could do with a win here. If we give ourselves the run-time of previous Manias, then we don't need to do the 10-man. We do Shrinkers/Gunns or Shrinkers/Kid & Holly. Holly was Kid's sometimes partner after Jannetty (who just loved getting fired right before Mania, this was his third year in a row) left in Feb. Kid/Jannetty would've been ideal as Shrinkers' opponent to set them up as #1 contenders, since they did hold the titles for a few days in Jan.
Probably best to do Gunns, since we could do I.R.S./Kid, which was being run at this time as an off-shoot from Shyster's feud with Kid's pal Razor. Gives I.R.S. a win to set him up to face Tatanka. Diesel/Kid is a possibility as well, but I like Diesel just being involved in the ladder match.
Quake was an ideal opponent for Yoko coming out of Mania, as was the plan, and since he was back and being built to that, it made sense for him to get a win here. After Borga left, they pivoted to Adam Bomb and got the Wippleman/Fink stuff involved on the show as well. I don't know if it was only a squash due to time constraints, but I don't quite know if I feel against it. It feels like Bomb shouldn't be getting squashed, considering he was less than a year in but (as we've discussed before) he actually had no backstory or interesting gimmicks/character traits, so ended up not getting over. Still, it feels like a fat guy that could be squashed like Bastion Booger would be an ideal pre-Yoko opponent for Quake here.
Bodies/Whackers could stay as the dark match, although I could see doing Bodies/MoM as well.
Jarrett/Backlund had some house show matches against each other pre-Mania. Could that be an option here to get Backlund on the show? Had even the MSG crowd turned on his face run at this point or could we have had a nice feel-good moment with cocky Jarrett getting outsmarted by Bob and rolled up quickly? The sort of finish that wouldn't really hurt Jarrett.
Martel/Plugg was a house show feud in the early part of the year, but neither man is needed on the show. If we wanted to give Bomb a win, I could take him beating Plugg quickly.
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Post by Strobe on Apr 11, 2021 0:26:49 GMT
Watched no wrestling really that I can think of for the last few months, but in the last few days, I’ve been watching some of those great monthly WWF TV comps that the Wrestling with Paul channel on YouTube has. Specifically the first half of 1989 and got me thinking about SummerSlam that year. I did my Mania V rebook a few pages back and I am very happy with it, but I have settled on doing Perfect/Blazer in an undefeated battle and Bad News/Koko. I really just made the card that they should've ran, finishing off long running feuds on the big show rather than finishing them off just before and running a number of thrown-together matches. Similar to that, this will be an attempt at tidying up rather than changing direction. The main event of Hogan/Beefer w/Liz vs. Savage/Zeus w/Sherri with a pre-match Genius poem obviously stays in tact, as does Rude vs. Warrior for the IC with Piper interference to set up his feud with the former. I am giving myself the ability to convince Studd to stay through SummerSlam, so I can run Andre/Haku vs. Studd/Duggan. These were overlapping singles feuds with occasional tag matches on house shows. It also acts as a natural beginning for the Colossal Connection as a team on a big show. This means that I can run Demolition vs. Twin Towers (after Studd's departure, Andre and Duggan were added to make this a 6-man) and have it be for the tag titles as I wouldn't be having the Brain Busters win the titles. Honky vs. Snuka (which I set up with Snuka's return on my Mania V) was a feud from June through September but did not face off on the show, with Snuka working with DiBiase, as Jake was out injured for over 4 months around SummerSlam and their feud would be extended through to Mania. I’m not sure what to do with DiBiase, who was just waiting for Roberts to come back. Likely just a quick and easy win, to keep him ticking over, against either Rooster or Koko. Leaning towards the latter, as DiBiase could talk about how he has put Jake and as a result Damien out of the WWF and now he will do the same with Koko and Frankie to rid the Fed of these foul animals. Piper and just arrived Dusty filled in for Jake on house shows, but neither of them should be taking on Ted here. In reality, they set up Dusty’s feud with Bossman before SummerSlam with him stealing his nightstick. But I would leave that until after and I would maybe delay Dusty’s debut by a month and have his first appearance be on a special Brother Love Show at SummerSlam, like they did with Slaughter in 1990. Bret went around the loop in singles matches with Perfect post-Mania, leaving Neidhart to work singles matches as well, most of which were against Barbarian. In those first couple of months after Mania, there were basically no PoP matches, with Warlord's main opponent being Koko. The Busters were wasted, working the Bushwhackers on house shows. I would not run Bret/Perfect on house shows and would be keeping Foundation vs. Busters on the show (essentially acting as a #1 contenders match), but as the conclusion of an actual feud. It seemed the obvious route to go post-Mania and you could get great Bret/Arn and Bret/Tully singles matches as well. That leaves us PoP vs. Whackers as another tag feud, which is about as good a use of those guys as is available. Someone for Barbie and Warlord to beat, but I don't think it will be making the card. I am keeping Tito/Rockers vs. Martel/Rougeaus as happened in reality. Tito/Martel will be running all the way through to Mania and Rockers/Rougeaus through to Survivor Series, so this was a great way to keep those going, plus Martel & Rougeaus felt like a natural team as French Canadians. I need to run Perfect vs. Rooster like they did on the show, but since I am not doing Perfect/Bret on house shows, I would run it as an actual feud. After Rooster got his revenge on Heenan at Mania in a feud that was about The Brain thinking Rooster wasn’t good enough and needed instruction, it would be easy to transition into a feud with someone whose gimmick is that he is supposed to be naturally flawless. “Hey Rooster, you might have shown that you are a great wrestler. But you know what you're not? You're not absolutely… PERFECT!” Garvin was retired by Valentine and doing the angle where he is a ref or in the case of SummerSlam a ring announcer and preventing the Hammer from cheating. On the actual show they put Garvin against Bravo, but they were running Hercules vs. Bravo on house shows at the time with Hercules cutting promos saying he, unlike Bravo, was the world's strongest man. They really should have run a Strongman competition between the two. Run a different event each week, like the Atlas Stones and the Truck Pull. You could even do an Anvil Toss and have a segment with Neidhart training Herc in the event if you want, for something fun. Could easily do 5 events. Make it simple, if you win the event, then its 1 point. They go 2-2 and the final event is a one-on-one tug-of-war, as you can work the crowd with momentum shifts and work some sort of screwy finish. Rather than a rope, you could use Herc's chain! I was going to suggest this builds to a match at SummerSlam, maybe even a chain match, but I think I might just have the tug-of-war itself on the PPV. So that means that really the only available, featured face left for Valentine with Garvin as ring announcer is Hillbilly Jim. He did start working more matches, including TV appearances, May through August 1989 so it would work fine enough. It is short and just to progress Hammer/Rugged. Bad News was left with nothing to do for most of 1989 really. He was facing Beefer on house shows coming out of Mania (while Savage worked with Hogan) and then Owen as the Blazer a few times after that. Owen left 2 months before SummerSlam and I don’t think I’d bother trying to keep him around to run a Brown/Blazer match at Slam and I don’t need to have him squash Roma or Powers either. Just consider this a bit of a break period from Bad News. Windham had debuted as the Widowmaker but doesn’t need a squash on PPV. Brawler’s relevance was over after Rooster/Heenan finished. Zhukov ( Volkoff was away until late Sept) is also left out. So we've got:
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Legend
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Post by 🤯 on Apr 11, 2021 0:58:22 GMT
Seeing this thread bumped with a Strobe post is better than any WrestleRAINia could ever possibly hope to be.
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