Jan 2, 2023 5:23:58 GMT Big Pete said:

Otherwise, poor ol' Okada could only rely on the Rainmaker after he hit it three times. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't enough at the height of NJPW excess. From what I understand Okada eventually went down a different route and tried to use a different finish only to bring the Rainmaker back and now it's being protected...until it won't be.

Yes, he did find a clever way to make everyone forget about the Rainmaker spam so he could bring it back stronger than ever. But yes, I can see it gradually advancing to two or three Rainmakers to win a match again some point this year.

Jan 2, 2023 5:23:58 GMT Big Pete said:

Jan 2, 2023 1:05:46 GMT Lionheart said:

Emperor and I both strongly despise NXT "video game wrestling" and always have. Comparing NJPW to that is ludicrous. There is maybe one false finish in most big matches, and half the time the same finisher just gets done again and then it's a win. Very rarely is there any over-the-top stuff. Almost all near pinfalls are rollups, which makes sense. They're not hitting 7 finishers in a row like in an Adam Cole Gargano bullshit match.

That wasn't the case when I was watching, take Omega/Okada for example and the amount of false finishes in that. Sure, the story was that Kenny couldn't hit the OWA but he hit damn near every other move for a pinfall attempt only to assume the seated position like he was waking up from a bad dream. It clearly influenced NXT to the point where they just straight up signed Finn Balor, Shinsuke Nakamura, Ricochet, Kota Ibushi and Zack Sabre Jr (albeit the last two were on short term deals).

Otherwise, poor ol' Okada could only rely on the Rainmaker after he hit it three times. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't enough at the height of NJPW excess. From what I understand Okada eventually went down a different route and tried to use a different finish only to bring the Rainmaker back and now it's being protected...until it won't be.

Maybe that was the case 5 years ago. But it certainly hasn't been the typical match style since 2019. WrestleKingdom main events generally do it a bit more though since it's the conclusion of a long feud built up to the epic finale. WWE is the same in that regard though with WrestleMania from what I remember. But that's a couple matches out of a whole year of content, where it's expected. And we're talking maybe a kickout of 2-3 finishers here. Not 7 in a row like every single NXT match was doing.

It is interesting that you mention Zack Sabre Jr since he does not wrestle the same style as anyone else. He does a ton of submissions and they eventually tap to one, which I guess you could consider a ton of false finishes...but not really...that's pretty much how submissions have always worked.

So we've gone from 'maybe one' to two-three. Hmmm, not as ludicrous as it first sounded. Especially not as ludicrous as every single NXT match had seven false finishes. That's a pretty impressive feat considering Cameron Grimes vs. Sean Mulata lasted 6 seconds. Maybe they scaled things back during COVID, but they were still kicking out of moves for the sake of kicking out of moves and doing these big lavish finishing sequences. If anything it was just an evolution of the 'fighting spirit' psychology that pre-dates most of us on the board. Except we have goofy stuff like 'lowering the knee pad' and wrist control.

My impression of ZSJ is that while he knew a thousand and one holds, he still worked them in like a typical NJPW match.

I kinda love how this was split from the original thread and then totally went off the rails again!

Okada also has the Money Clip, his Cobra Clutch. But the Rainmaker is iconic, and his version of it is one of the greatest finishers IMO.

And yeah ZSJ works a wide variety of submissions to stretch out of people until they have to tap to one.

WK main events are also not the typical NJPW style.  They are like WM main events where many of the same things people complain about happen.

Jan 2, 2023 15:33:36 GMT Big Pete said:

My impression of ZSJ is that while he knew a thousand and one holds, he still worked them in like a typical NJPW match.

During his time in NJPW, Zack's style has gradually evolved from his own British Tekkers style to a more rounded NJPW strong style-British tekker shybrid. But in his early years he was wrestling almost pure technical matches.

His New Japan Cup victory in 2018 saw him submitting Naito, Ibushi, SANADA to reach the finals. He was fairly new to the company at the time and his opponents had no reaction to him tying them in knots so these matches were very technical and one-sided. Nobody had an answer. What made the final against Tanahashi so exciting is that Tanahashi did have an answer and was able to hit some sustained offense on Zack. In the end Zack submitted him but they told a great story with a ton of drama.

Another feature of Zack's wrestling in those years was that he had no striking game. One forearm strike would knock him down, so none of the typical strike battles you see in every match. In kayfabe, Zack's opponents started to prepare for his technical wrestling more, so Zack couldn't dominate them with holds. In response Zack bulked up and tightened up his strikes and endurance. In this way Zack's style evolved, and his singles matches became more competitive. Later on he inherited the Michinoku Driver from his then-manager Taka Michinoku. That game him a pinfall finisher, but funnily enough he's won only one or two big singles matches with that move, he still much prefers to submit an opponent, and also gets more satisfaction from a rollup victory because it's a pure wrestling move instead of a brutish head drop.

I didn't think I would ever buy Zack trading strikes with some of these bruiser but he managed to make it work for him. So yes, he does work some matches in the traditional NJPW style but they will always be fun and unpredictable just because of how different Zack's core wrestling style is.

Jan 2, 2023 15:49:09 GMT @aaron said:

I kinda love how this was split from the original thread and then totally went off the rails again!

I'll take any opportunity to talk NJPW.

I'm surprised it took ZSJ THAT long to wrestle in NJPW. I must have been conflating his work in NOAH and Rev. Pro. Even so I remember watching his work alongside Drew Gulak and Timothy Thatcher and comparatively speaking ZSJ really laid his matches out like a typical NJPW match. It wasn't like this new genre of Pro Wrestling infiltrated NJPW, Zack just tailored his moves along their tropes.

I think the match that really sticks out to me is Ishii-ZSJ from WK2019.

Jan 2, 2023 15:33:36 GMT Big Pete said:

So we've gone from 'maybe one' to two-three. Hmmm, not as ludicrous as it first sounded. Especially not as ludicrous as every single NXT match had seven false finishes. That's a pretty impressive feat considering Cameron Grimes vs. Sean Mulata lasted 6 seconds. Maybe they scaled things back during COVID, but they were still kicking out of moves for the sake of kicking out of moves and doing these big lavish finishing sequences. If anything it was just an evolution of the 'fighting spirit' psychology that pre-dates most of us on the board. Except we have goofy stuff like 'lowering the knee pad' and wrist control.

My impression of ZSJ is that while he knew a thousand and one holds, he still worked them in like a typical NJPW match.

We've stayed at "maybe one" in most big matches and clarified with two-three on one single show in an entire year. I'd say that all but a single show qualifies as most, so my statements are pretty consistent. You are just THROWING SALT at this point.

I didn't watch NXT long because I quickly realized how absurd it was...but I watched about four or five title matches straight a few years back and they all ended with ~7 or more finisher-level moves. I counted literally twelve superkicks all within the last three minutes of one of those Gargano-Cole matches and couldn't fucking believe it.

I don't know what Emperor is smoking to say ZSJ works some matches in the traditional NJPW style because every other move is a submission in all of his matches. Emperor added some good detail about his evolution within NJPW and how he built up muscle and started handling the striking game well, but the striking is still only like 10% of a ZSJ match while his unique submission style still dominates the rest of it.

FYI I moved Blindy's Twitter post, and the responses, to the AEW Problems thread.

See, I actually watched both products consistently to know what I'm talking about. NJPW were all about excess and that was true outside of the WK main event. Not only were wrestlers kicking out of a host of near-falls, it was taking 3 Rainmakers or Destinos to put opponents away. Maybe it's slowed up since COVID, but by that point they had set the tone for NXT. Which was my main point, that the excessive finishes got over, the indie guys started doing them and they were signed to NXT to have those matches there.

Show me an NJPW match where someone hits 12 superkicks within a few minutes. Maybe you're right. Maybe it influenced NXT and they started doing crazy shit to be cool like NJPW superstars, but they obviously got carried away with it and did it a Hell of a lot more to even more absurd ridiculous levels than ever imagined.

In any case, it hasn't been like that since 2019 so it doesn't matter anymore! NJPW is now great and free of bullshit finishes!

Show me an NJPW match where someone hits 12 superkicks within a few minutes.

The only act you could be describing is the Young Bucks who worked NJPW.

My point wasn't critical of NJPW, rather how can you be critical of NJPW, yet support a show that was blatantly influenced by it to the point they were signing and promoting stars from it (eg. Finn Balor & Shinsuke Nakamura).

In any case, it hasn't been like that since 2019 so it doesn't matter anymore! NJPW is now great and free of bullshit finishes!

Guess we'll see tomorrow night...

Jan 1, 2023 23:53:47 GMT Lionheart said:

Not to mention 27 superkicks in one minute Bucks absurdity Rey Phoenix Ciero Miero 0 whatever ladder to Hell matches where they kick out of the most brutal shit imaginable every 2 seconds. AEW is far more like NXT.

I had yet to see Winter is Coming, but just watched it. It was revealed that the Bucks / Lucha Bros. are most likely having another ESCALERA DE LA MUERTE match. What timing! Has that happened yet? The first one was actually pretty good compared to most of their other matches. I'm not too optimistic about another though. All these matches with Death Triangle feel rather worthless and are tough to watch.

What kind of fucking company decides they're going to put on the same match seven times in a row? And in a worthless triples division of all things? How is that good business sense? Not to mention it is a massive waste of two of their best talents in Omega and Pac. Who the heck is running this show? Do they just do whatever they want because they think they're cool?

I have now seen this new ESCALERA DE LA MUERTE match and it was not very good. More bullshit than ever before.

Expansion is not viable. Thread concluded.

Best of 7 is a great gimmick. Overall the series was a lot of fun.

Expansion for AEW now all depends on Tony making deals to get AEW onto TVs. Still not in many markets, and IIRC Rampage is not even aired in all the places that get Dynamite. He also needs to suck it up and get shit onto some streaming service even if it does not pay what he feels he should get. Content on a tiny service or no service at all really is not gonna get him cash.

Jan 14, 2023 14:31:17 GMT Lionheart said:

Jan 1, 2023 23:53:47 GMT Lionheart said:

Not to mention 27 superkicks in one minute Bucks absurdity Rey Phoenix Ciero Miero 0 whatever ladder to Hell matches where they kick out of the most brutal shit imaginable every 2 seconds. AEW is far more like NXT.

I had yet to see Winter is Coming, but just watched it. It was revealed that the Bucks / Lucha Bros. are most likely having another ESCALERA DE LA MUERTE match. What timing! Has that happened yet? The first one was actually pretty good compared to most of their other matches. I'm not too optimistic about another though. All these matches with Death Triangle feel rather worthless and are tough to watch.

What kind of fucking company decides they're going to put on the same match seven times in a row? And in a worthless triples division of all things? How is that good business sense? Not to mention it is a massive waste of two of their best talents in Omega and Pac. Who the heck is running this show? Do they just do whatever they want because they think they're cool?

A company that's trying to save face with their audience by getting back to basics. By stretching it out across seven weeks, it gave the division some much needed consistensy as it was the six best proponents going at it over a near weekly basis.

It's something AEW has promised for what feels like years now. The Bucks built their reputation on these style of matches and it's a division that hasn't had a spotlight on it since the territory days.

It remains to be seen whether it will be successful. The series got over with the live audience but didn't draw audiences. It's to be expected given how infantile the division is, but they really need to make their moments mean more. Highlight the lengths teams are willing to go to, the chaotic nature of the matches and use it to help more talent get over.

Like you I have my doubts. Not only because I've been conditioned to see it as nothing more than a filler division by NJPW but I don't think they'll get fans to care who wins or loses which is the key.

Jan 15, 2023 21:43:14 GMT c said:

Best of 7 is a great gimmick. 

in 1986

Let's play the ratings game, I know AEW doesn't like KPIs when they aren't in their favour ( still the number one wrestling program in the key Albanian Midget demo ) but, it's a KPI. It's measurable, and it's an indication of whether the business is growing. Simply, are more eyes on AEW compared to the previous year? Yes, or No. And some social media stuff too. 

I wanna look at this time last year vs the present day or as close as possible to give some indication of any significant growth ( we won't talk Rampage, because it doesn't break 500,000 regularly enough to worthy a mention )

Raw and Smackdown in comparison are relatively consistent (surprisingly) year on year, with notable decreases in the demo if you explore the last 4 or 5 years of data. WWE were hitting 0.6 to 0.8s and now float around the 0.5 mark and understandably so, as the product has been shit for the majority of the last half-decade and was insufferable until recently. 

Television:
www.itnwwe.com/

Dynamite started off with a bang in 2019, three consecutive weeks over the million then dropping under for the majority of the last 3 years. There's no consistent growth ratings wise. Potentially and likely, there was a tonne of initial interest from new AEW fans and existing ROH and WWE fans alike, and the sport/entertainment industry would have had eyes on AEW in particularly those first few months. October 2019 highlights the potential AEW has to bring in +Million numbers. 

11 January 2023
967,000 | 0.33

12 January 2022
969,000 | 0.39

13 January 2021
762,000 | 0.30

15 January 2020
940,000 | 0.38

2 October 2019 ( Episode 1 )
1,409,000 | 0.68

YouTube:
Source - www.noxinfluencer.com/

Year 1 : AEW's channel hit 1 Million subs on February 28, 2020. 
Year 2 : 369 days later, on March 2, 2021 they hit 2 Million subs. 
Year 3 : 341 days later, on February 5, 2022 they hit 3 Million Subs. 
Year 4 : 348 days later on 18 January 2023... The current AEW YouTube subs read 3.5 Million.

The channel saw growth of approx. 1 Million subs a year for it's first 3 years. However in the last 12 months, AEW has attracted approx. 500,000 new subs - 50% less subscribers than in each of it's first 3 years. 

In 2 years and 8 months, WWE's channel has grown from 60 Million to 90 Million. An increase of 30 Million subs. An impressive 10 Million between August 2021 and August 2022 alone. 

Twitter: 
Source - www.trendsmap.com/

AEW joined Twitter in October 2018. By the January 1, 2022 @aew on Twitter had 770,000 followers. Lets, round that out... or approx. 192,500 followers for each of those 4 years. @aew currently has 895,000 followers. From picking up 200,000 followers on average a year to just 118,000 new followers over the last 12 months... 

WWE in the last year (with currently 13 Million followers) picked up over 1 Million new followers. It took 16 years to amass 13 Million followers... or, approx. 812,500 followers of each of those years. So picking up a cool mill in 12 months aint bad. 

------------------------------------------

Television isn't seeing any notable growth, nor decline outside of that initial spike. I guess that's good. So, there is no more eyes on the television product today than there was in 2019. Social media is actually seeing a slow down on the previous years. But's it's continual growth regardless. But it isn't translating to any sort of increase in it's television audience. Suggesting, it's likely coming from international viewers or existing fans finally liking/subbing.  

As for expansion, I don't know. Let's go with a No for now, until there's an almighty positive increase in the audience, the one in front of TV and the one in front of a computer first. 

Cable all around is seeing ratings decline. No one getting growth from the US cable market. Tony NEEDS a video platform to grow.

That said he is still looking into WWE and claims money is not the issue, but process of the sale. However, he also said while he talked with Steph in the past, he never spoke with Vince. And that kind of is gonna be stage one of any sale.

There is a weird irony though where if he buys WWE, AEW becomes basically Heat and Velocity <.<

If he buys WWE, AEW doesn't exist. He's got a new toy. You don't keep running the corner Cafe when you just bought all of McDonalds.

Tony sliding into Steph's DMs? Does Mr. H know lol.

I hope Tony buys WWE, and makes AEW the A fed, and WWE the the internet only fed with 2 minute matches.

Yeah, he's going to kill the most profitable wrestling organisation in the world, coming off it's highest revenue year in 2022.

The profits from WWE could run AEW.

Daddy Khan should buy WWE, let Hunter run it, and use the profits to finance AEW so he then doesn't need to shell out allowance for his son's loss making hobby.

Jan 17, 2023 3:04:59 GMT bodyslam said:

Jan 15, 2023 21:43:14 GMT c said:

Best of 7 is a great gimmick. 

in 1986

I've never really understood the appeal of a best of 7 series, or 2 out of 3 falls, since they almost always go to the final fall. I can handle it a little more in a 2 out of 3 scenario, since it's just a "we know they can most likely beat each other, but we need the third fall as a definitive decider".

But best of sevens always going to the 7th match makes it feel way too predetermined, and dare I say, fake. Like, NBA, NHL, and MLB playoff series don't always goes to the 7th game. It's usually one or two series out of the whole playoffs that do.

2/3 I wish they didn't always cheap out and do a phantom early fall.