So a big problem a lot of lackeys who stood up to their oppressor is that after the WHITE HOT ANGLE ends, so does their momentum. We've seen it plenty of times. Yeah they'll have the program, maybe win overall and get a shiny token reign if they're over enough to justify it... but they rarely can actually do anything after that initial win. Some is on the star for not being good, but also on creative for giving them nothing. A bit of a combo.

Is Kane the exception? Being part of the TUDE and obviously his size helped him tremendously and he was just part of a lot of good shit pal at the time. Doesn't help that Vince apparently was very protective of Kane's lore for whatever reason (eviscerate)... but he also loved Yimmy Wang Yang and he didn't exactly do anything but slum it up on Velocity with London. Kane literally had his own career. Sure he always came back to Taker via tagging/feuding/being an extra... but they actually booked him bro. And that's probably the X-factors that guys like Alex "RAGE" Reilly lacked... just having that push. (Gotta have a goddamn push). And in the end Kane DECISIVELY beat Taker, it wasn't a random pinfall. He actually went over a program via the WHC on Smackdown, which I'm sure shocked people. Taker was also open to him being "the one" to end the streak. Don't think that's accurate since there's also rumors that Taker was open only to Brock doing it. (🤯 where you be?)

There's nothing to discuss here. Is it comparable at all? Probably not since Kane started as an aggressor. Just always thought he was similar since his whole thing is tied to Taker but he did manage to have his own thing going for a while. Even Sandow's tombstone will mention Miz in some capacity...

The number one problem with this premise is simply that Kane can't possibly be the best anything.

Haven't though much about this, so can't say he's the best, but he's certainly better than Kane, and that's Big Daddy Cool Diesel. Much closer to an actual Virgil to Michaels, they separate, Diesel turns face, immediately becomes champion, has classic matches against Hart and Michaels, becomes the number one free agent of 1996, starts a little thing called the new World order of professional wrestling, has one of the finest heads of hair of all time. Diesel is such an all time great Virgil, shitty Glenn Jacobs had to pretend to be Diesel before he was given Kane! Never going to catch Big Kev trying to be Glenn Jacobs. No contest. 

Batista is in the conversation. Was a generic bruiser Virgil for Reverend D-von (yep, D-von Dudley was once a priest wrestler), joined Evolution, long tease of Triple H being jealous of his success.

Boom, they do the turn at exactly the right moment. Batista beats Triple H a bunch of times, multiple time World Champion, top face and then top heel.

I think @ness is right in that it's an angle that rarely works out long term - Wardlow being a prime recent example - but we tend to remember the Virgil that worked rather than the ones that didn't. Except Virgil, the original Virgil.

Not even close.

At least #1 in my heart. (don't tell Shida)

Also he's not here to represent, but I know 🤯 would be cutting and strutting in a huff if we didn't at least bring up Ed Leslie.

Seriously, was there a better #2 than Arn? Is he too over-qualified? Because all my memories are of him being Ric's right hand man and his ability to turn every bizarre Flair angle into gold.

The WWF nailed the Kane gimmick and it was a right place right time type of deal. What's one way to make the show more edgier? Make a slasher villain and set him loose on the roster. Add in some pyro, a mask and a reason for him to use all of Undertaker's pre-established cool moves and you've got money.

The key was how they were able to interweave the Kane/Undertaker storyline into Austin/McMahon. That decision made everybody involved more interesting and allowed Kane to have a life outside of Taker. Then when they reunited it felt fresh because Kane was a complete character.

They got four quality years out of the character before they introduced Sick Boy's sister and poisoned the well.

Kane having his best run in 2010 is one of those things that doesn't resonate with me at all. Same for his return in 2011/12 where they gave him back his mask and booked him as the baddest dude on the roster. I was so checked out at the time, my only memory is that they had him and Swagger completely bury Zack Ryder's under-dog run.

Everybody had a Virgil.

Arn Anderson was Ric Flairs Virgil

Hall was Nash Virgil

Owen was Bret’s Virgil

Beefcake was Hogans Virgil

HBK is HHH Virgil


Arn Anderson was the best Virgil in wrestling history.

Without the original, there can be nothing to follow. Mike Jones is THE blueprint.