I love Anarchy Rulz 99 equally as Out For Justice, same ball park, two of the greatest things ever put to film and have a few things in common.

Aug 4, 2023 2:17:39 GMT Neo Zeed said:

I loved more than yall did I thought Cyrus was great and Gertner ripping TNN/redneck culture on their own network may have been the thing that has aged the best about the whole deal. Rob Van Dam on friday nights in 2000 man that was the fucking time dude. It was on, get real. Maybe we will get a New Jack dive. And some tits. C'mon where is your professional wrestling loving heart? ECW is like what the devil said at the end of Crossroads movie, nothing ever turns out as good as we want it to be. What I had ECW built up as in my imagination the real thing could never live up to, I read about those characters and matches in the magazines for a little while first. Whenever there was a PPV I'd read those results in the magazines(remember the WOW writeups for Living Dangerously, Cyberslam, and Hardcore Heaven 99 being really juicy). The real thing could never live up to those expectations. I was pretty let down with Anarchy Rulz and ECW in general in real time because of that, where was all the exploding barbed wire thumbtack tables? Where was the fire? New Jack didn't even jump off of any balconies! And who the fook is Johnny Smith?! But I grew to love it all for what it really was and even moreso when we did AHT(finally getting to see all of those tapes after all those years, of course none of it ever lived up to what I had it built up to be, but still a lovely time nonetheless). ECW on TNN was fucking bad ass dude. Shame on all of you for not watching it, those ratings should have been way higher. Fuck Rollerjam AND Rock N Bowl!

I was watching! I think, like with all alternative things, the best period of that alternative thing just happens to be when you first catch it. Awe only lasts so long, and awe is what makes that new thing seem different and exciting. So, by the time TNN had come along, I had already seen RVD every week for years. And New Jack. And thong shots during cat fights. I still loved it! I still thought the full package was one of best things going in wrestling. I was enjoying it, but I couldn't be awed by it anymore, and I missed the awe! 

I think about this a lot in the context of everything. So many formative experiences of watching something, or listening to something, is in the feeling of it seeming new and exciting, and there is almost a tipping point in life where that stops happening. You see too much shit. You hear too much music. Everything you view, or hear, in whatever artform, or entertainment, tends to just remind you of past things you've seen or heard. You see the amalgamation that it probably is, so the awe is gone. You can still be moved, but rarely awed after a certain point, and awe is the drug. I think most of nostalgia is just missing the feeling of awe. 

I did some digging and apparantly the plan was always to have a History of ECW type episode but TNN dropped them so ECW debuted on the network later than expected. The original show was taped in Toledo, Ohio, a town they'd never run before and drew a disappointing crowd. A few of the matches eventually made Hardcore TV - namely Jazz vs. Steve Corino & Spike/Balls going over the Dudleys for the tag titles.

The original idea for the taping was to have RVD/Lynn with Lynn capturing the TV title. Then in Week 2 RVD would challenge and beat Taz for the title. However those ideas changed as Heyman was in the middle of negotiations with Taz and was expected to sign Taz, with both the Observer and Torch announcing that Taz had re-signed for 3 years.

So that got scrapped and instead was going to be RVD & Credible vs. Lynn & Storm on the premiere episode with the Dudleys/Spike & Balls as night two. However the shows were so poorly received creatively and financially they scrapped them.

Then Bischoff had his 'like it or leave it' meeting and all bets were off. Not only because Raven was coming back but there was speculation around Billy Kidman and Paul E declared him his first round draft pick and put him over huge. He wasn't as complimentary about Konnan.

The other talk around this time was the signing of Johnny Smith and Uganda. Apparantly there were big plans around Uganda and Paul E was piping in chants to make him more over than he was.

One issue with ECW around this time is that a lot of the top talent is working hurt. Lance, Dreamer & Raven were all dealing with injuries so they had to keep their matches short and work around it.

Aug 4, 2023 21:57:45 GMT Big Pete said:

The original show was taped in Toledo, Ohio, a town they'd never run before and drew a disappointing crowd. 

The original idea for the taping was to have RVD/Lynn with Lynn capturing the TV title. Then in Week 2 RVD would challenge and beat Taz for the title. However those ideas changed as Heyman was in the middle of negotiations with Taz and was expected to sign Taz, with both the Observer and Torch announcing that Taz had re-signed for 3 years.

Holy shit, this is the better universe to be in. With a few tweaks it would be pretty much the best case scenario for ECW at that stage.

1. Don't go to fucking Toledo, Ohio for a first taping. The Mid Hudson Civic Center in Poughkeepsie, where Hardcore Heaven '99 was, would be the perfect choice. It was a WWF staple for Superstars tapings, so equipped for TV tapings. ECW had just sold it out a few months prior and certainly would have again.

2. Jerry Lynn goes over RVD in Episode 1, in the building he just came up short in at Hardcore Heaven '99. Basic full circle storytelling. It could have taken up the entire second half of the episode, Joey Styles really selling "THIS IS WRESTLING" at the height of wrestling being about everything else. Taz destroys someone in the first segment, showcase someone in match 2 (Tajiri or Super Crazy or both or Impact Players), get Dudley promo in to promote challenging Balls/Spike for the tag titles in Episode 2.

3. Episode 2, still at the Madhouse of Extreme (ECW is a NY/Philly promotion, no one would care that they're double dipping in New York). You can leak the Taz is going to WWF rumors and he kicks off the show to YOU SOLD OUT chants and cuts a heel promo. RVD challenges him, main event for Anarchy Rulz is now set. Need to unveil Sabu in Episode 2, just have him destroy someone with all his big spots. Episode 2 ends, just as it really did, the Dudleys beating Balls and Spike, Tommy challenging them, and Raven returning. 

Going into Episodes 3 and 4, ECW has a new TV champion (Jerry Lynn), new tag team champions (Dreamer and a heroes return Raven), and the biggest main event in the company's history scheduled for the end of the month. Paul E. loves shock finishes, so maybe do a Mike Awesome return at the end of Episode 3 to keep the streak going (he's not needed as a surprise at Anarchy Rulz now, he can just be a guy on the roster). Episode 4 can be a one match show with a strong emphasis on promoting Anarchy Rulz.

Now Anarchy Rulz can mostly be the same + ECW's biggest main event ever:

Mike Awesome vs. Masato Tanaka
Jazz vs. Tom Marquez
Tajiri vs. Super Crazy vs. Little Guido
Justin Credible vs. Sabu
Jerry Lynn vs. Lance Storm (now for the TV title)
Tommy Dreamer and Raven vs. Steve Corino and Rhino (Tag Team Titles)
Taz vs. RVD (World Title)

Aug 4, 2023 2:54:03 GMT Kilgore said:

I think about this a lot in the context of everything. So many formative experiences of watching something, or listening to something, is in the feeling of it seeming new and exciting, and there is almost a tipping point in life where that stops happening. You see too much shit. You hear too much music. Everything you view, or hear, in whatever artform, or entertainment, tends to just remind you of past things you've seen or heard. You see the amalgamation that it probably is, so the awe is gone. You can still be moved, but rarely awed after a certain point, and awe is the drug. I think most of nostalgia is just missing the feeling of awe. 

100%. More words of wisdom from the 'gore.

Aug 4, 2023 21:57:45 GMT Big Pete said:

The original idea for the taping was to have RVD/Lynn with Lynn capturing the TV title. Then in Week 2 RVD would challenge and beat Taz for the title. 

Mind blown. Details were slightly different (I had RVD winning at Anarchy Rulz) but this has been my dream booking scenario for at least 23 years. I've posted about it before! KING KID get in here. Paul E. was stealing my ideas before Vince stole yours! Fun Fact: The August 99 ECW Arena match Pete recently watched is actually my favorite of the RVD/Lynn bouts.

Just want to put all you guys over real quick. I was getting bored with PW but you guys have reinvigorated my love for this place over the past week or so. So thanks for that.

Also cool to see some fellow Rhino haters. I had no idea! My big issue with Rhino was how he went from basically 2004 Tomko (which makes Corino 2004 Christian?) to 2002 Lesnar so quickly. It was like one week he was this no nonsense hard luck henchman who fought hard and fought well, but ultimately lost, and the next week he's suddenly this unstoppable monster squashing everyone. Felt like they skipped a few steps with him. Plus I couldn't stand 2002 Brock in the first place. Or maybe my Rhino hate all stems from seeing him beat Daniels that one time at the Arena? Idk. Point is he was overpushed like crazy.

Calling his WWF run a success is misleading. Yeah, he was killing it in 2001. Even I liked him there! After not being able to stand him in ECW. JR weirdly comparing him to Nick Bockwinkel while he has all these surprisingly above average tv matches was sweet. But then he was out for over a year with injury and never regained his mojo after returning. Only semi-notable thing he did was a meh feud with Chris Benoit. Then he was gone.

I always heard scrapping the Toledo taping at the last minute was a Heyman call. Even if not, it should have been a sign this ECW/TNN partnership was not going to be all smooth sailing. And maybe those who weren't drinking the Kool Aid realized this? All that controversy over the very first episode is wild in hindsight. Imagine that happening with the first Nitro, Raw, or AEW Dynamite. You can't! Because it never would happen.

By the time Johnny Smith appeared out of nowhere and started laying into RVD to set-up their match at Anarchy Rulz I was about ready to declare the start of WWE ECW being the better show. Smith had never appeared on the program before and now he's facing one of the biggest stars in the promotion?

Put some respect on Johnny Smith's name! All tru ECW fans remember that time he wrestled Louie Spicolli.....in 1996.

Discovering Heyman had big plans for Uganda is interesting. Never heard that one before. Always wondered why he headlined one of the 1999 ECW Arena shows I went to. It was one of those wacky dream partners deals, but still, Uganda in an ECW Arena main event? Pretty sure it was his first night with them, too.

*Be back later to play "hype or no hype?" in regards to Anarchy Rulz, provide general 1999 ECW thoughts, and write more about Johnny Smith. 

Always get a kick out of Kilgore putting over the Christmas Eve & New Year's Eve episodes as peak ECW on TNN. Naturally they were the two I missed. Worse than that, I didn't even care that I missed them. That's the kiss of death for a wrestling promotion, or really any tv show. Things happen. You miss an episode here and there. But missing and not even caring does not bode well for ones future with that program. Wonder if I'd have stuck with the show longer if I saw those episodes?

Anarchy Rulz: Hype or no hype?

HYPE! So. Much. Hype. Albeit for different reasons than Neo Zeed...

I was there first and foremost for the drama surrounding Taz. The rumors were flying. What happened here would determine the future of my favorite ECW wrestler. If he wins, he's staying. If he loses, he's gone. Meaning everything changes. The forums were abuzz with Taz Talk.

It's also been lost to time that Awesome wasn't officially announced for the match, though it was heavily hinted at. So the drama over Awesome potentially showing up was also a big deal.

I thought the match itself was laid out brilliantly. They say your first Awesome/Tanaka match is your favorite of their series. While that's technically true in this case it's my favorite Awesome/Tanaka match not because it was my first, but because Awesome/Tanaka never felt Bigger. Top 5 all time ECW match for me.

Sabu/Credible was the secondary draw. This was a pretty cool storyline that I was into. Sabu had been quasi-suspended (it's ECW so they worked around the suspension in certain markets) for months thanks to Credible's machinations and now the ECW icon was "officially" back for revenge. Classic good guy vs. bad guy pro wrestling goodness. Shame about the finish tho. 

I don't even remember the ICP rumors. Random Tangent: I never really got the ICP hate. Don't get me wrong. I wasn't an ICP fan or anything. Perish the thought! But the internet just had this huge over the top hate boner for those guys. 

Anyway, I cared less about the mystery opponents and more about seeing archrivals Tommy & Raven being forced to team up. That storyline had a ton of potential but never really went anywhere. Major disappointment after years of hearing/seeing a little bit of their epic 95-97 rivalry. Rhino & Corino were a fine pick as glorified jobbers to put over the real stars. I already compared Rhino to 2004 Tomko and while I loved Corino, he basically had the credibility of "Dangerous" Danny Davis as an in ring threat.

Lance/Lynn and Crazy/Tajiri: Round 86 featuring "Go Away" Guido weren't going to draw my dimes, but they were perfectly cromulent pointless midcard filler. Certainly better than some of the scrubs WWF would trot out in a similar position on their pay per views. 

Which brings us to RVD/JOHNNY SMITH. I was cool with this! It was obviously a filler title defense for Rob, but it was also cool to see some new blood in the mix. I was looking forward to it as a 1999 workrate match since Smith had street cred with people who called it Puroresu based on surviving a decade in the sacred rings of All Japan. I was also fine with Smith coming over from to time as a representative of Impact Players: Japan. Truth is I was a little bummed out when Balls punked out Johnny. But then I was happy again because my guy Mahoney killed it in that match so it gave me bragging rights on Strictly ECW since Stuart and his ilk were always pooh poohing Balls. 

Fwiw the show delivered in spades. Barely Legal is the only ECW PPV I'd take over Anarchy Rulz. Sorry, Heatwave 98 fans.

I liked Jackyl in WWF. Or at least the idea of Jackyl in WWF. But Cyrus had the wrong kind of heat with me- go away heat. Couldn’t stand him. And the Network storyline was a major dud. Only thing worse was WWF recycling an idea that sucked the first time around with the short-lived Palmer Carson character.

*I’ve spammed this thread enough tonight. More tomorrow.

The Rise 1999 Version

I get why Kilgore was only lukewarm towards 1999 ECW. He had been watching since late 95 so he had seen peak ECW and would accept no cheap imitation. Even I had seen enough white box tapes and heard enough from longtime members of the hardcore cult to know peak ECW ended roughly in June 97...

But I'm still more with Neo Zeed than Kilgore when it comes to 1999 ECW simply because 99 was the real time peak of my ECW fandom. 95 I only discovered they existed at the very end of the year and barely cared about this newfound knowledge. 96 I started following them in earnest through the magazines and local wrestling radio show and their occasional presence on WWF programming. 97 I still followed them through the mags & radio show, their WWF presence increased, and I finally got to watch two ECW shows via PPV. 98 they expanded their PPV schedule (I caught two and a half of the four), I bought a whole bunch of tapes, and followed them more closely than ever thanks to this newfangled thing called "the internet." But 1999 is the year my ECW fandom reached its peak...

I started going to ECW Arena shows, making 6 of 8 from March-November. The first one I went to alone on a last minute whim. I started driving around July 98 and this was, by far, the longest drive of my life up to that point. It was as much a rite of passage as a pilgrimage. It just felt like something I had to do alone. And taking that first pilgrimage to the ECW Arena really was like a religious experience. That was my Jerusalem or Mecca. I doubt my cousin would have believed me when I told him I went if I didn't keep the ticket as proof. Think I went with that very cousin to the next four ECW Arena shows I made (May, June, July, October), and the last in November I met up with a guy from the Strictly ECW forum. Obligatory "I WAS THERE WHEN SANDMAN RETURNED!" brag. Also watched the first five of their six 1999 PPV offerings, missing only N2R. Most importantly, they finally got a national tv deal, meaning I would finally get to watch ECW on tv. This was a promotion still on the upswing. They would only continue to grow. The sky was the limit...or so I thought.

Taz & RVD were my guys. I legit thought they were the two best wrestlers in the business. Taz was the biggest badass, with the coolest suplexes, while RVD was the cool poster boy for the hardcore & high flying style which was all the rage in 1999. It made sense to have their two best wrestlers as their champions!

Corino was great as a modern take on the old Piper/Gilbert wrestler/manager role.

Dudleys were heel gods and the best tag team in the business with the best finisher in the business.

Sabu, Dreamer & New Jack were just pure ECW. Sabu was the ultimate ECW poster boy and a modern day legend. Dreamer was the heart & soul of the promotion. And I guess that makes New Jack its blood? Yeah, that works. 

Then you had BOYS CLUB members Nova & Balls entertaining me in the midcard.

Tajiri/Crazy and RVD/Lynn brought the workrate while the usual suspects provided the ultraviolence. Impact Players were fine in hindsight as an upper midcard bad guy tag team I loved to hate. Sort of like an ECW version of the New Age Outlaws. Or a precursor to Rated RKO if you prefer. Nowadays I have to grudgingly give them credit for getting me to cheer Shane Douglas. Not Dean, but Shane! They were definitely better together than apart. 

Oh, and then business REALLY picked up when Raven & Sandman returned.

I didn't even mind Taz & the Dudleys leaving. They had done all there was to do in ECW. It was time for them to move on to the big time and free up some spots for fresh new/returning talent. After Anarchy Rulz I was ready to follow new champ Mike Awesome as he took us ECW faithful to the promised land. Too bad it didn't last.

But throw in the HYPE surrounding the tv deal and you can see why I was so high on 1999 ECW. As I recently stated in the other 1999 thread, there was a narrow window, something like July-October, when I may have even preferred ECW a teeny tiny bit to my beloved WWF. Let's do a real quick side by side comparison...

Pay Per Views

WWF: Only watched WM, Backlash & Over The Edge live. Did see Rumble, Valentine's Day & KOTR a day or two later on tape. Skipped all WWF pay per views from July-December- my longest WWF PPV drought between 95-04.
ECW: Watched the first 5 live. Only missed N2R.

Live Shows

WWF: Came to Baltimore thrice. I went to the Smackdown taping in November but skipped the May & July house shows because I was 2 kewl 4 house shows. For I was a know it all smark who called Japanese wrestling "puroresu." Baltimore Arena was about 10 admittedly painful miles away.
ECW: Went to 6 of 8 ECW Arena shows from March-November. ECW Arena was a little over 90 miles away.

Merchandising

WWF: Don't think I bought any WWF merch this year, official or otherwise. 
ECW: Bought 2 or 3 shirts and several 'official' white box tapes at the ECW Arena

TV

WWF- This is where they catch up. Still watched Raw regularly. Ditto for the new Smackdown show. Doubt I missed more than 6 episodes of Shotgun/Jakked all year. Even caught Heat about once a month.
ECW: Didn't air here until August and my interest in the TNN show went from THROUGH THE ROOF to "meh, don't really care" in four short months. And that's where we'll pick up tomorrow...

The Fall

We left off with me being HYPED for the first TNN show, and the future of ECW in general. That first show was An Event. We're talking Wrestlemania level hype. I believe the old Gang of '95, sans Brother who was almost certainly out getting into trouble somewhere, got together to watch some wrestling for I think the last time, our minds prepared to be blown as if it were Barely Legal all over again...

It ended with a whimper. "...that's it? That...kind of sucked."- everybody except me and the cousin. I played the kool aid drinking ECW apologist. "Yeah, it wasn't the best show, but they HAD to do it this way, you see. Start slow to introduce a new audience to the characters and storylines. I'm sure it will be better next week!" Alas, there would be no next week for the majority of them. Not sure anyone besides tru believers my cousin and I ever watched ECW on TNN again. In truth, the old Gang of '95 was drifting apart. They were going there way and I would soon be going mine. It wasn't 95-96 anymore. It wasn't even 97-98 anymore.

The ratings for that first show were also a major disappointment. I don't even think they hit 1.0. You have to understand I was OBSESSED with wrestling ratings in those days. I thought they'd get anywhere from a 1.5 to a 2.0. Turns out there weren't as many ECW fans as I/we thought. But that's ok! We'll grow the brand together...

So for the next four months I'd speed over to my cousin's place in the city most Friday nights (I may have skipped a few) when I got off work at 7:30 to watch some ECW, usually making it just in the nick of time. But the show never really did improve much from that lackluster first episode. Truth is I barely remember any specifics about ECW on TNN. I could probably tell you more about what happened on 98-99 Shotgun/Jakked! Let's see...

There was that great RVD/Lynn match, the iconic Raven & Sandman returns, Corino interrupting the Limp Bizkit concert, and...that's about it. Let's talk about the Bizkit real quick. Now that I was finally listening to popular music I actually knew who Limp Bizkit was! Wasn't a fan yet (sorry @ness ) but I knew they were popular if only because my cousin was always playing that stupid Nookie song. So Corino getting into it with legit radio stars was cool! And a big deal to 1999 me! Oh, wait. I also got a kick out of seeing the ECW Arena shows I attended on tv if only to play 'spot myself.' If Dudleys vs. Balls & Partner from a Spring or Summer 99 ECW Arena show ever made it to Hardcore TV I'd be spotted on that one. Actually might have to look into that myself...

My biggest issue with ECW on TNN was NOTHING EVER HAPPENED. Tajiri & Crazy fought this week and you knew they were gonna fight again next week. After hearing so much about, and seeing a decent amount of the 95-97 Raven/Dreamer feud, I was super hyped for that to be renewed. That hype only increased with Sandman's return. But it took FOREVER to go anywhere*. It was like Sting & Luger in 96 WCW all over again, only worse because I actually cared about these guys. 

*Only reason I do remember Raven/Dreamer 2.0 ever going anywhere is because I recall seeing Raven & Awesome vs. Tanaka & Tommy at a 2000 ECW Arena show. In other words, the place it FINALLY went to a pair of odd couple tag teams aka: one of my least favorite Vince Russo tropes brought to ECW. Great...

Some of their production choices also sucked. Scrapping the first set of tapings comes to mind. It's like tell me you're bush league without actually telling me you're bush league. And didn't they air the EPIC 30 minute RVD/Sabu draw from the ECW Arena on Hardcore TV rather than TNN? If so, WHY? This might get me some heat with you guys, but I HATED the constant scratchy jump cuts. If you know, you know. Really made one long for the comparatively subdued stylings of 2010s-20s Kevin Dunn. 

I missed the Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve episodes because Christmas & New Year's Eve and DIDN'T EVEN CARE. Kiss of death for a wrestling show, or any show. From then on I'd only speed over to my cousin's on Friday nights if he was coming over for the weekend. And that happened less and less as 2000 progressed for reasons I'll cover later on in this post. 

Again, this will probably get me heat with you guys, but I just groaned and rolled my eyes at the constant TNN bashing. They gave ECW their best shot to finally making it big and ECW goes all self-destructive drunken yahoo by shooting themselves in the foot. Great move, guys! How about you work on producing a show wrestling fans actually want to watch instead of blaming The Network for your inability to progress beyond that lolworthy 1.1 rating? (ECW on TNN was the original 1.1 wrestling show btw) Anyway, I found that whole deal super mega cringe even before Heyman's epic whine. Guess I had officially stopped slurping down the kool aid. 

The roster also took one blow after another. Sabu unceremoniously departed after refusing to job to Super Crazy. New Jack was in and out. So was the aforementioned Crazy. Ditto for RVD after returning from injury. BOYS CLUB members Balls & Nova stopped doing it for me. Sinister Minister was so cringe doing his EXTREME Paul Bearer schtick. Anyone else remember his promo in an empty swimming pool? Major community theater vibes with that one. With that whole character, really. The midcard was dire with a bunch of awful noobs who weren't ready for prime time. They tried making SCOTTY RIGGS a lead heel! How can you guys defend this stuff?!? I did like Kid Kash tho. And I liked Simon Diamond more than you guys. Thought he was fine as an ECW version of the classic 'annoying' heel. 

2000: The Timeline of Decline

January: Skipped the PPV
February: RVD gets hurt. Most untimely, promotion-killing injury ever? It just might be. He was The One. And now he was done. Nobody got the rub from beating him to end the epic near two year TV Title reign either.
March: Went to a forgettable ECW Arena show. Possibly only because "Beautiful" Bobby Eaton was rumored to be there? Skipped the 3rd PPV in a row.
April: Awesome leaving was actually great for generating buzz and turning ECW into the good guys again. I was suddenly back on the bandwagon when TAZ returned to beat him. A WWF guy beating a WCW guy for the ECW championship was cool! Taz showing up with the ECW Title on WWF tv to further bolster the credentials of "King of the Universe" HHH was a Big Deal! And Taz losing the belt to Tommy was fine! Yay, Tommy! The good guy finally gets his moment in the sun. Oh, wait. What's this? Justin Credible. NO! ANYONE BUT HIM! Also worth noting I skipped going to the The Arena for the Taz/Tommy match for long forgotten reasons.
May: Skipped another PPV. Lance Storm defected to WCW. But that wasn't a major loss because nobody really cared about him in the first place.
June: Remember watching Mikey/Mamaluke while on vacation in Wildwood, NJ with a wrestling hater who pooh poohed everything. Reason I bring this up it is the ONLY ECW match from 2000 that I distinctly remember watching on TNN. This stuff just didn't stick with me! 

July: Pierre showed up to challenge Credible for the Championship at the ECW Arena. Not sure why I didn't go. You'd think that's one of the few things which could get me back. Also watched the last hour or so of Heatwave at my cousin's. Last ECW PPV I saw even bits and pieces of. Also the last PPV I watched with my cousin regardless of promotion. He was turning hard on wrestling as a whole by this point, and would be done with it for life as far as I know after we went to one last WWF show together in October. Over the past 17 years I've gotten the impression he treats his 94ish-00 wrestling fandom as an old shame best forgotten. He doesn't like to talk about it. Actually seeing him later today at a crab do down his family's shore house. Might try coaxing him into a wrestling conversation. Maybe I'll even ask his sister if she remembers having the hots for Aldo Montoya!
August: Went to my last Arena show. Maybe because Bobby Eaton was rumored to be there? It was either this or the March one! This one actually did have a killer Tajiri/Psicosis match and RVD hitting the Van Terminator. So that was cool. Way better than the last 2 shows I went to. The NYC double shot was the last straw. These shows had so much hype on the forums that they even brought me back a little bit. They were built around a tournament to finally crown new tag champs and a Credible/Corino title match. Corino was my #1 ECW guy by a mile at this point. All signs pointed to him ending our long nightmare by dethroning Credible to become an unlikely babyface champ. He lost. And I was officially done with ECW.
September-January: They got booted from TNN. I didn't care. Midcard 4 life Jerry Lynn ended Credible's reign of doom as the crowd went mild. Then they finally gave it to Corino. Too little, too late. Rhino continued to beat everyone until he got the belt too because Heyman had a major thing for him. I was legit more into WOW than ECW by the end. WOW! Yeah, I knew it was crap, but I had no expectations whereas ECW had let me down time and time again. At least WOW was good, clean, throwback fun to the type of wrestling I had grown up on. Then ECW died with a whimper after a house show in Arkansas, of all places. The End...

Of ECW, but not quite of this monster post. You see there's one major factor I neglected to mention thus far. ECW "sucking" may have had little to do with me going off the promotion after all. I watched bad promotions before! And I would watch them again! (WWF from Whenever to 2009) No, me going off ECW in 2000 may have been inevitable...

Simply because my life changed considerably from 99 to 2000. I basically went from a Flanders brother with wrestling in place of religion in '99 to Animal House in 2000. In 99 I was still hanging out with the local lads and doing more or less the same things I had been doing since 95-96. In 2000 I was hanging out with my new work friends who all lived well beyond walking distance. For the first time in my life I was one of the cool kids. It's not as if I disliked my life before 2000. I didn't! I was happy as can be just doing my own thing. Might be why I never got into 90s rock, which was all about miserable people moaning about how miserable they were. What had I to be miserable about? BUT change can be good! And I was digging this new cool kid life.

I got into music for really the first time. I even knew who all the kewl bands were! Sure, I had been King of the Neighborhood to 7 or 8 local lads from 95-99, and I always had my friends before that, but now I was over like rover to 25-30 people at work, some of whom practically worshiped me the way Chuck The Shawn Michaels fan had. And some of those groupies were cuties! I'd hang out with my new friends until wee small hours most every night. We went to the beach in June and would go on trips to scenic Western Maryland a few times that year.  It was a whole new world. One in which we egged each other on into further bouts of debauchery. Started drinking in June. Smoked weed for the first time in October with one of my hotties named Molly who was wearing impossibly tight clothes. We rogered later that night on her grandfather’s bed. Should go without saying I had my first girlfriends and first sexual experiences in 2000 as well. Life was good. Finally swapped out my mom's hand-me-down station wagon for a sweet new Hyundai Elantra in August. Now I was never a showy, fancy schmancy Hollywood type, but one can't help but get a swell head when one has a bunch of cuties lining up to take a ride in the Blue Hornet. So 2000 me absolutely got a big head. Big Shot Bob had nothing on me. You guys probably would have hated 2000 Baker lol. Anyway, point of all this is there was little room for a mediocre ECW in this brave new world. Although...

This 2000 ECW post could really use a supplemental 2000 WWF counter post to provide contrast. Next project?

I agree with all of your complaints about ECW, during that time Baker . My similar discontent began a little earlier. It was a real bummer watching the decline in real time. It made me genuinely sad! I think I had convinced myself that the periods of decline in 1997/1998/1999 were very understandably Paul E. feeling in limbo after Barely Legal, waiting for the network deal, it not coming, and them some dispirited booking taking place in that malaise. Also being gunshy about booking certain people knowing WWF/WCW would poach them at the absolute worst time for ECW. The TNN Deal would rejuvenate him. Surely he was saving ideas for "a better time" that better time is now. And do them with a bolstered roster now that he has outside capital! He can keep whoever he wants. He can bring in whoever he wants. A new Golden Age! Then it was almost immediately apparent that, nope, he was kinda done. It's like watching your favorite fighter past his prime, going in thinking, "Every great fighter has one last great fight in him, this will be it," then a minute into round one it's apparent he's washed up and it's going to be a sad night.

I kept watching, though. There's some sort of addictive quality to wrestling that keeps every wrestling fan watching longer than they should. You see it in WWE Forums all the time, people that haven't enjoyed it FOR YEARS, and still watching. It becomes an unbreakable habit, or something. And that was me with ECW. I just kept watching.

I don't remember the timeline of my thoughts quite as well as you, but I do know I attended a JAPW event in February 2000 because I was in search for "the next ECW." When that search began, no idea, but there was enough discontent where I was actually proactive enough to go to a grocery store arena in fucking New Jersey 90 minutes away to try to get that old ECW feeling.

Only thing I will add to the TNN Era is how strange it was to me that Don Callis became the face of the show. This guy, who had no real ECW connection previously, was carrying the most important period in the company's history. I guess that isn't so strange for Paul E. to take a WWF washout and build important programs around that person, but to be the face of your new network show seemed insane to me, and the fact that I thought Callis was bad (go away heat more than Bobby Heenan heat) certainly didn't help my perception of this decision. 

I did find this little snippet about ECW on TNN ratings:

The March 3rd episode of ECW on TNN scored it's highest Neilson rating to date since the show debuted in August, 1999. The program got a 1.3 Cable Nielson rating, topping their previous high rating of 1.2, set back on January 22nd.

Last week's ECW on TNN show was loaded, featuring Tommy Dreamer and Masato Tanaka defeating the Impact Players for the Tag Titles. Mike Awesome defended the World Title against Spike Dudley, plus Super Crazy, Yoshihiro Tajiri and Little Guido went at it in a 3 way dance.

This strong rating should solidify ECW's position on TNN as one of it's top rated shows. When the show first began airing, TNN sold ad time for ECW expecting a rating close to 2.0. The first show did a 0.9 and TNN was worried that ECW's ratings would slide a little after the debut. ECW has turned things around though and is beginning to climb towards their 2.0 goal. Next week's show should pull a strong number as the lead-in to the Living Dangerously PPV.

The optimism bummed me out. The next week fell to a 1.1. And it was back down to a 0.8 the week after that. It went over 1 two more times (March 31 and April 14), before staying consistently at .8s and finally a .7 for the final episode on July 14. 

A toxic partnership of an incompetent network and a show runner who is totally burnt out while still having the ego of a man at his peak. 

Aug 8, 2023 18:46:03 GMT Baker said:

the last PPV I watched with my cousin regardless of promotion. He was turning hard on wrestling as a whole by this point, and would be done with it for life as far as I know after we went to one last WWF show together in October. Over the past 17 years I've gotten the impression he treats his 94ish-00 wrestling fandom as an old shame best forgotten. He doesn't like to talk about it. Actually seeing him later today at a crab do down his family's shore house. Might try coaxing him into a wrestling conversation. Maybe I'll even ask his sister if she remembers having the hots for Aldo Montoya!

Something amazing and unexpected happened today. But before I get to that I must set the table...

It would be a lie to say my cousin never brought up wrestling over the last 23 years. He did. Twice as best I can remember...
 
Once in 07 or 08 to get the 411 on the upcoming WWE Draft which he had "been hearing a lot about." Yep. That's right. Of all the things to get through to this lapsed fan over the last 23 years, it was the stupid WWE Draft during a down period. Life is weird.

The other time was during the build to his 2011 wedding. I was one of the groomsmen. In my groomsman writeup he mentioned the time I "tiger suplexed him on wood." This is a fallacy. It was a chokeslam! 

The handful of times I have brought up wrestling over the last 17 years (I didn't see him much from 01-05. We had drifted apart. He went his way and I went mine. He was closer to my brother during that period.) he quickly no sold it and and moved on to another topic. Example: I'd be like "Hey, remember that *cool wrestling thing*?" and he'd be like "Yeah. That was cool. How 'bout dem Ravens?" It was pretty clear he didn't want to talk wrestling so I never pressed it.

Then today completely out of the blue as we were discussing sharecroppers (90s neighborhood slang for "rabbits") and hrududu (rabbit for "car"), as one does, he randomly blurts out something like "Remember when we used to drive up to Philly for ECW shows? Man, that was wild." Naturally I couldn't contain my glee. I must have been beaming, having JUST mentioned it on this very forum a few hours earlier. So then we talked ECW for about 5 minutes. I swear this happened! He brought up New Jack, the Dudleys, Taz, Sabu, Dreamer, RVD, Sandman, Terry Funk, our crazy experiences waiting in line before shows, the seedy building, its location in what was basically a wasteland, and the fact that I never told my parents where we were going (out of fear they'd put the kibosh on our trip).  Before long he was beaming just as much as I undoubtedly was. He didn't remember Raven tho. BUT he talked about the Dudleys attacking a fan, called Taz "the best technical wrestler" (which led to both of us putting him over for a minute), brought up the time New Jack talked to us in line "carrying a 40," and claimed "New Jack got beat up by the Dudleys until Sabu made the save by leaping down from the rafters." Now I personally don't remember the 40 part (not to say it didn't happen! I just don't remember it), and I'm 99% sure the Dudleys/Jack/Sabu incident never actually happened, but it was still one hell of a conversation. I couldn't have been prouder of the lad. 

Though I never did get around to asking his sister if she remembers having a crush on Aldo Montoya

I think way more people were watching ECW than what the ratings show. First of all you have to be one hell of a dork to have a Nielson box hooked up to your TV, I've literally never seen one and never known a single person that had one in my entire 38 year old life. I'm to the point where I really think ratings are total bullshit conspiracy stuff. Look at MTV how the ratings didn't correlate to the album sales that a band would get from one of their videos playing. I think ECW is a case where the system didn't measure accurately, the ratings were low simply because the rare number of people with those boxes just didnt watch it. You mean to tell me they were drawing 6,000 people to shows in Canada with less than .9 ratings? Attendance was pretty great for the shows outside of Philly/NY in 2000. Cities where they had never been before, and the crowds seemed to all know what was going on. 

Also Rob Van Dam in ECW in 2000 was like Mike Vick in Madden 2004, I get a kick out of the marketing for Heatwave 2000 was all built on him debuting a new move that you just had to see.

Had to look this up, RVD's recently getting his Pantera music back was the feel good moment of the decade. But I know that wasn't his music in his early days 1996 I couldn't remember what it was but had to track it down and it was this:

Aug 4, 2023 2:24:33 GMT Neo Zeed said:

I love Anarchy Rulz 99 equally as Out For Justice, same ballpark, two of the greatest things ever put to film and have a few things in common.

James Mitchell & Jerry Lynn signed Anarchy Rulz 99 DVD at the 1st TNA Fanfest in 2005.

Aug 13, 2023 17:34:28 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Had to look this up, RVD's recently getting his Pantera music back was the feel good moment of the decade. But I know that wasn't his music in his early days 1996 I couldn't remember what it was but had to track it down and it was this:

Not gonna lie. I was disappointed it wasn't his Barely Legal theme. To rectify that situation...

While ECW on TNN wasn't as good as Hardcore TV, I watched it religiously for the most part, because my area didn't get Hardcore TV (I know, I'd read through TV Guides and everything to see what wrestling was going to be on that week😂). And even with it being lackluster, it was still ECW, so it was great, to me.

One of my favorite matches on ECW on TNN was Dreamer vs. Corino at Wrestlepalooza 2000. It starts off as a "cowbell match" (basically like a strap match), but then Jack Victory comes out. So Sandman comes out to even things up, only for Tajiri to come out making it 3 on 2. And then, "Natural Born Killaz" hits!

A crazy brawl through the arena, lots of weapons getting used, and a funny spot of Sandman hit Tajiri in the stomach with the cane, leading to Tajiri "choking" on the mist. Victory them gives him the Heimlich maneuver, only for Tajiri to mist Corino (green mist and a crimson mask turn Corino's face brown😂). Dreamer, Sandman, and New Jack win the match in the end.

Close to 20 years later, I'd get to see a wrestling event in the arena that hosted Wrestlepalooza 2000 (the Family Arena in St. Charles, MO.) Fittingly, it was the spiritual successor to ECW, ROH's Gateway to Honor event, before COVID would put live wrestling on hiatus for the most part.

Edit: I guess it was an "Extreme Bullrope" match, instead of cowbell match. I just remember the cowbell in the middle of the rope, that could be used as a weapon (as though it mattered once Sandman and New Jack were in the match😂).

ECW on TNN ruled. The gripe about the first episode is that they replayed RVD vs Jerry Lynn from Hardcore Heaven? Dude I would have sacrificed an appendage back then to see that match after all that I had read about it. Think of all the people that never had access to any ECW TV and I'm ok with the idea of doing a clip show on the premier. Maybe it could have been a better clip show idk I haven't seen that episode in a while I may need to go back and check it out. The actual 2nd episode of ECW on TNN was the first one I seen and always thought that was the first episode, didn't find out until later there was another episode that week before.

Aug 19, 2023 1:18:23 GMT Neo Zeed said:

The gripe about the first episode is that they replayed RVD vs Jerry Lynn from Hardcore Heaven?

The gripe was that the first set of tapings were that bad they scrapped them and had to play that match instead.

Hardcore TV's entire thing was inserting clips and history packages within the context of new shows. ECW did this better than everyone, constantly acclimating the audience with the history of the company, its wrestlers, their feuds, their titles. To do NOTHING BUT a clip show is just a shittier version of what they were already doing, and an embarrassing one at that, considering it was a late audible after the actual TV taping went bad.

If they really committed to Lynn defeating RVD for the TV Title during the first TV Taping, they could have easily shown the Hardcore Heaven bout Week 1 (along with two new matches from the TV taping), while hyping the rematch for Week 2. That's basic and smart television, something ECW would have done for most of its previous 5 years.