Seeing Austin with the long blonde hair and billed from California makes me wonder how close we were to having him play Golddust in the WWF. Seems like he would have been a better fit for that character than Dustin Rhodes. Could you imagine?

Making it into the post War Games episodes now and it's good stuff. The DA is still around but falling apart fast, Arn seems to be on his way out to go on a singles run after the interview, they are turning on Larry for all of his fuck ups. 

Man, Barry Windham was in some of the best matches so far in all of these tapes from 1992. The match against Arn after Wrestlewar was bad ass, 2 out of three falls that was like this epic battle. The match where he beat Austin for the title before Wrestlewar was great too.

Burning through these and I'm a week away from Beach Blast already, and here's Bill Watts.... WTF?! I thought his era on top of WCW was before all this? What happened to K Allen Frye? Was he related to Don The Predator? 

I watched the rise and fall of WCW again for the first time in ages hoping to get some context of what was going on behind the scenes in WCW up to and during this era and it does a pretty poor job of explaining it all, very non-linear approach to the whole pre-NWO history. Not a good doc. WCW needs a better one. 

That is crazy what they had going on up to Wrestlewar and all of the ahead of the time stuff they were doing. The Cactus brawl with Van Hammer and the Jerry Springer style segment with Rude exposing Steamboat's sluts, Paul E. Dangerously in general, all was way ahead of it's time. Now we got Bill Watts and Ole Anderson here front and center and they are all like "Things are about to change!" like some old dinosaurs. Did WCW really need these guys? Seems like a HUGE momentum killer. 

I do like the no padding change. 

One thing I do love about Bill Watts was his crusade to prove wrestling was real and the toughest. Immediately all the wrestlers are talking about how real they are and tough they are real men, real fights haha. This was a heavy element he pushed in the Mid-South tapes I watched. Watching those really was a good lead in to this era of WCW, felt like a prequel, just like this era feels to early Heyman era ECW 93 to 97. 

Apr 10, 2023 10:24:23 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Seeing Austin with the long blonde hair and billed from California makes me wonder how close we were to having him play Golddust in the WWF. Seems like he would have been a better fit for that character than Dustin Rhodes. Could you imagine?

Apr 10, 2023 12:41:55 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Burning through these and I'm a week away from Beach Blast already, and here's Bill Watts.... WTF?! I thought his era on top of WCW was before all this? What happened to K Allen Frye? Was he related to Don The Predator? 

Kip Frey (no relation) was in charge from WCW from 1/8/92 to 6/1/92. Story I'd always heard was they relieved him of his duties because he spent too much money without resulting in any boost at the box office, but now I just saw somebody claim he was only ever intended to be an interim boss in between Jim Herd and whoever they would find to do the job full time. So who knows?

Seen a lot of wrestlers paint Frey as a clueless putz for handing out all these big contracts and bonuses while just being a nice guy in general. Wrestlers can be so stupid. Stop complaining! You WANT to work for the nice guy who is overpaying you! Work WITH the money mark! You ride that gravy train for as long as possible. Would you rather go back to Jim Herd or deal with penny pinching Watts? Of course not! So many times these dummies got what they deserved. If I were a wrestler today I'd love Tony Khan. You better believe I'd participate in his teenage booking fantasies if he was paying me as much as Vince with half the dates.

Anyway, Watts came in and the older (original?) generation of smarks rejoiced. It was a big deal to them. That early generation of smark worshiped Watts. I've heard insiders from that era say they believed Watts was the only guy who could turn the company around going all the way back to the original Turner purchase in late 88. He was The One. Basically to that generation of hardcore fan what Heyman was to ours. 

Meltzer knew though. Guy who runs a podcast I listen to excitedly called Dave right after the news broke to get his thoughts. Dave saw it coming and said "it's not going to work." Watts hadn't watched a single second of wrestling in 5 years. Nowadays we also know this ultimate "my way or the highway" guy could never have lasted long in the corporate Turner world.

He quickly began alienating wrestlers by cutting salaries and expenses, instituting a bunch of new rules everybody hated, and being his usual charming self. Basically the polar opposite of Kip Frey. When I got online A LOT of people loved his WCW run. General consensus was critical success, but financial flop. He's responsible for the Vader/Sting and Steiners vs. Doc & Gordy feuds along with the main event pushes of Vader & Ron Simmons. But it seems a lot of people have soured on his run in more recent years. Nowadays I see/hear more praise for Frey's run. Fwiw Watts lasted from June 92 to February 93.

Every time WCW has something good going they will immediately shoot themselves in the dick. It's like if the New York Mets were a wrestling organization.

The Super Invader seems like a Bill Watts deal, that's a character that has been pretty lame that popped up around the time Watts did and started getting pushed. Seems kind of redundant considering they had Vader on the rise. 

Apr 11, 2023 23:31:12 GMT Neo Zeed said:

The Super Invader seems like a Bill Watts deal, that's a character that has been pretty lame that popped up around the time Watts did and started getting pushed. Seems kind of redundant considering they had Vader on the rise. 

Super Invader was Hercules Hernandez under a mask who worked in Mid South for a spell. I think this was the beginning of Herc's downward spiral so Bill probably gave him a lifeline.

Apr 10, 2023 21:49:33 GMT Baker said:

Anyway, Watts came in and the older (original?) generation of smarks rejoiced. It was a big deal to them. That early generation of smark worshiped Watts. I've heard insiders from that era say they believed Watts was the only guy who could turn the company around going all the way back to the original Turner purchase in late 88. He was The One. Basically to that generation of hardcore fan what Heyman was to ours. 

Meltzer knew though. Guy who runs a podcast I listen to excitedly called Dave right after the news broke to get his thoughts. Dave saw it coming and said "it's not going to work." Watts hadn't watched a single second of wrestling in 5 years. Nowadays we also know this ultimate "my way or the highway" guy could never have lasted long in the corporate Turner world.

He quickly began alienating wrestlers by cutting salaries and expenses, instituting a bunch of new rules everybody hated, and being his usual charming self. Basically the polar opposite of Kip Frey. When I got online A LOT of people loved his WCW run. General consensus was critical success, but financial flop. He's responsible for the Vader/Sting and Steiners vs. Doc & Gordy feuds along with the main event pushes of Vader & Ron Simmons. But it seems a lot of people have soured on his run in more recent years. Nowadays I see/hear more praise for Frey's run. Fwiw Watts lasted from June 92 to February 93.

I find it interesting that Watt's not watching wrestling for 5 years is pointed to as a reason for his failure. I picked up one of my ECW history books that covers 1992 pretty well and they had a paragraph about Watts taking WCW over at that time, and how he hadn't watched wrestling in 5 years. So he hadn't watched any wrestling from 1987 until 1992, so he missed Hulk vs Andre Mania III, he missed all the Flair-Steamboat-Funk glory, missed the big declines of AWA/WCCW, the rise of the high flying cruiserweights, missed the rise to MVP caliber of Cactus Jack, the rise of Sting, all the crazy shit Joel Goodhardt was doing in Philly, what all did he really miss?

I think I went through about a 5 year stretch of just not watching any wrestling there from probably 2017 to the end of 2022. I wouldn't say I was ever a big fan of the modern day product there when I got back into it 2012-2016 but I did watch the occasional Raw/TNA, would watch PPV's, was checking out modern ROH/Evolve/Chikara, Tommy's House Of Hardcore, also was big fan of Lucha Underground's first 2 seasons. Now 5 years later after not watching anything I definitely feel way out of touch with anything going on in modern day wrestling in 2023, I tried watching the Royal Rumble in January and felt like the womans Rumble was so bad I tapped out on the whole show. Also Mania bits I seen definitely made me feel like way out of touch dude from a bygone era haha. Seeing the kids raving about the Bloodline storyline and AEW I feel like Bill Watts 1992 on here, but in my own head my fan fic booking is five star top shelf(see username). Essentially I am the Bill Watts '92 of PW, I ask no quarter and give none. 

It's pretty fascinating to get the full context now after watching some Mid-South, then this period of WCW 1992 with the full scope of the peak Dangerous Alliance era transitioning directly into Bill Watts era overnight. I got back into one of my ECW history books to get a feel for how this all bled into ECW falling into place the way it did. It's interesting to me now because a decade ago when I got this book and started writing AHT I really had no idea who Bill Watts was or anything like that. So to get a real feel for how this all was like it's own little cosmos of butterfly effect events is spectacular. I read that Watts fired Heyman in January 1993 for falsifying expense reports. In the book it's disputed that that's not true that Watts didn't want to renegotiate Heyman's six figure contract.

And in the book it says that Heyman turned down an offer to sign with WWF in early 1993 because he had a radio gig lined up hosting some show in NYC, but then supposedly he passed that up to go with Jim Crockett's new fed he was trying to launch since Crockett promised to let him be the booker. That doesn't really add up. He turned down a probably huge contract with WWF to host a radio show but then turned that down to be the booker for Jim Crockett's new NWA fed that wasn't really even close to starting yet? In the book it really plays up that Heyman was dying to book a wrestling fed and just couldn't resist the offer from Crocket(he was supposedly ready to get out of wrestling altogether). He ended up in ECW due to his connections with Eddie Gilbert(who was connected with Todd Gordon through his days in Tri States where Gordon was ring announcer before he bought out what was left of the fed to start ECW in 92). Heyman was just there with Eddie Gilbert to stay busy until Crockett got his new NWA fed going(he never did), then Heyman kinda weaseled his way into taking Eddie's job as booker of ECW by connecting Todd Gordon with Crockett when ECW went NWA in 93(this ran Eddie out as he had major heat with Crockett). So many little things happened for ECW to really just kinda fall into place the way it did in the perfect little storm. 

Can we get a picture painted of a WWF 1993 with Paul E. Dangerously as an active performer? Also really thinking about it now how huge was that they put him with Rude when Rude jumped from WWF to WCW in the end of 1991?

Bong loaded coffee pot roasting and Beach Blast 92 loaded up lets go. I'm stoked to watch Steamboat vs Rude Iron Man, at this point before even watching the match I feel like this is one of the best 90's feuds. Its been the highlight of these tapes for sure.

Apr 17, 2023 13:18:05 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Watts taking WCW over at that time, and how he hadn't watched wrestling in 5 years. So he hadn't watched any wrestling from 1987 until 1992, so he missed Hulk vs Andre Mania III

Watts did see Wrestlemania III. Legend has it that's when he realized his goose was cooked and decided to sell. Story checks out too since he did sell the company to Crockett only 11 days later.

Apr 22, 2023 13:13:25 GMT Neo Zeed said:

1. I read that Watts fired Heyman in January 1993 for falsifying expense reports. In the book it's disputed that that's not true that Watts didn't want to renegotiate Heyman's six figure contract.

2. Can we get a picture painted of a WWF 1993 with Paul E. Dangerously as an active performer?

1. Watts was undeniably a penny pinching cheapskate, but I buy the official story given Heyman's long history of shady financial dealings.

2. This is fascinating. Not because of what Paul E. would do in 1993 WWF, but because of the butterfly effect it has on everything else. Easiest thing to do is simply plug Paul E. into Cornette's primary role as Yoko's American spokesman. Alternate take would be to plug him into Johnny Polo's role managing Adam Bomb and later the Quebecers. And maybe he does a little commentary work. Let's just assume Paul E. ends up in the Cornette role. That means no Corny in WWF for at least a few more years and Paul E. eventually ends up on the booking committee. I actually don't think a ton changes in WWF. The guys Paul E. liked (Austin, Foley, Taker, Rock- probably) were the same guys who eventually reached the top during the AE anyway. But let's look at how it changes the rest of wrestling...

-ECW likely never progresses beyond just another regional fed. It remains Eddie's Championship Wrestling/Memphis North for a little while longer with Eddie in the Lawler role until he inevitably burns his bridge as he always did. Then what? Sandman, Stevie, Mikey, Spike, Public Enemy, etc. never even reach a limited level of fame. Sabu likely becomes even more of a niche cult favorite working midwestern indies and FMW where he's seen as a poor man's Hayabusa even among the most hardcore tape traders. Perhaps Taz peaks as Braun The Leprechaun. (maybe WWF does change after all with Shamrock getting the Taz gimmick and push?) Dreamer likely gets a look because he had...the look and some size. Best case scenario he ends up as Bagwell 2.0. RVD probably gets another look as well, but he wouldn't have that built in fanbase when he does. Raven works SMW like he was supposed to irl before choosing ECW at the last minute, but neither Corny nor the SMW audience really understand the gimmick and it flops. What becomes of Corny when Rick Rubin pulls out? Does WWF bring him in? Do they decide instead to fund SMW as a developmental territory? Do the Eliminators ever catch a break? Do the Dudleys ever come together? I'm not sure they do. Does Shane Douglas ever become a thing? Does hardcore wrestling take a few more years to catch on? I imagine WCW still does something with the Cruiserweights eventually because Bischoff did keep an eye on New Japan.

This could be your next fanfic project!

My first reaction at the butterfly effect of Paul E. in 1993 WWF is this is meaningless for the WWF in the short term, and bad bad bad for the WWF long term. I feel that they really need ECW to show them the way to gain momentum back from 1996 WCW, which has to still happen, even on this timeline.

Hogan is definitely still going to WCW in 1994, Hall & Nash are probably still leaving in 1996, the new world order of wrestling brother is still happening, and WWF is going to be toast for close to two years. How do they rebound in 1998 on this timeline? There were a lot of edgy models of that day (Howard Stern, Jerry Springer, and so on) that could inspire the WWF to go in that direction, but the lack of ECW feels like too big a void for the WWF to have any idea what to do.

Does Attitude even exist? Does Steve Austin know he can become Stone Cold without a test run as the Superstar? Is Mankind hired without the ECW run or is he a Stan Hansen figure, big in Japan? Does Triple H transition from a fancy boy happen without The Franchise showing him what to be? What do high spots look like without ECW, some of the most iconic moments of WWF being big budget versions of extreme spots? Does Hell In A Cell even get invented? Does Kane never debut (okay so we found one good thing)? There's got to be so many more examples of important WWF figures and angles being greatly altered without a Paul E. ECW. And for what? Him doing commentary, managing losers and being a (not respected) booking committee guy in 1993 WWF? Total net negative for WWF. WCW might win the war. 

Apr 26, 2023 4:08:52 GMT Kilgore said:

My first reaction at the butterfly effect of Paul E. in 1993 WWF is this is meaningless for the WWF in the short term, and bad bad bad for the WWF long term. I feel that they really need ECW to show them the way to gain momentum back from 1996 WCW, which has to still happen, even on this timeline.

Hogan is definitely still going to WCW in 1994, Hall & Nash are probably still leaving in 1996, the new world order of wrestling brother is still happening, and WWF is going to be toast for close to two years. How do they rebound in 1998 on this timeline? There were a lot of edgy models of that day (Howard Stern, Jerry Springer, and so on) that could inspire the WWF to go in that direction, but the lack of ECW feels like too big a void for the WWF to have any idea what to do.

Does Attitude even exist? Does Steve Austin know he can become Stone Cold without a test run as the Superstar? Is Mankind hired without the ECW run or is he a Stan Hansen figure, big in Japan? Does Triple H transition from a fancy boy happen without The Franchise showing him what to be? What do high spots look like without ECW, some of the most iconic moments of WWF being big budget versions of extreme spots? Does Hell In A Cell even get invented? Does Kane never debut (okay so we found one good thing)? There's got to be so many more examples of important WWF figures and angles being greatly altered without a Paul E. ECW. And for what? Him doing commentary, managing losers and being a (not respected) booking committee guy in 1993 WWF? Total net negative for WWF. WCW might win the war. 

I feel like the edgy stuff we got in 1996 was a good baseline for what a WWF attitude era looks like without the ECW influence, all the stuff with Golddust gay stalking wrestlers, HBK seducing Bulldog's wife(he seduced me! he slept with me!). I have a theory I feel like they were already trying to do Attitude Era in 1996, that was Vince's idea of Attitude before somebody finally forced Vince to sit down to watch an ECW tape at some point in the end of 96 or early 97(around the time Shotgun launched). 

Apr 26, 2023 6:50:41 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Apr 26, 2023 4:08:52 GMT Kilgore said:

My first reaction at the butterfly effect of Paul E. in 1993 WWF is this is meaningless for the WWF in the short term, and bad bad bad for the WWF long term. I feel that they really need ECW to show them the way to gain momentum back from 1996 WCW, which has to still happen, even on this timeline.

Hogan is definitely still going to WCW in 1994, Hall & Nash are probably still leaving in 1996, the new world order of wrestling brother is still happening, and WWF is going to be toast for close to two years. How do they rebound in 1998 on this timeline? There were a lot of edgy models of that day (Howard Stern, Jerry Springer, and so on) that could inspire the WWF to go in that direction, but the lack of ECW feels like too big a void for the WWF to have any idea what to do.

Does Attitude even exist? Does Steve Austin know he can become Stone Cold without a test run as the Superstar? Is Mankind hired without the ECW run or is he a Stan Hansen figure, big in Japan? Does Triple H transition from a fancy boy happen without The Franchise showing him what to be? What do high spots look like without ECW, some of the most iconic moments of WWF being big budget versions of extreme spots? Does Hell In A Cell even get invented? Does Kane never debut (okay so we found one good thing)? There's got to be so many more examples of important WWF figures and angles being greatly altered without a Paul E. ECW. And for what? Him doing commentary, managing losers and being a (not respected) booking committee guy in 1993 WWF? Total net negative for WWF. WCW might win the war. 

I feel like the edgy stuff we got in 1996 was a good baseline for what a WWF attitude era looks like without the ECW influence, all the stuff with Golddust gay stalking wrestlers, HBK seducing Bulldog's wife(he seduced me! he slept with me!). I have a theory I feel like they were already trying to do Attitude Era in 1996, that was Vince's idea of Attitude before somebody finally forced Vince to sit down to watch an ECW tape at some point in the end of 96 or early 97(around the time Shotgun launched). 

Definitely by Mind Games '96. The show was in Philly, they booked that spot with Sandman spitting beer in Savio Vega's face with Dreamer also in the crowd.

I agree that the show was already going in that direction and was naturally going to age up, but when you see shows like Mind Games, that's when you can tell they're not even hiding the ECW influence. Then around that time you get LiveWire and Bruce from Conniticut was constantly looking to start problems.

Apr 26, 2023 2:25:48 GMT Baker said:

Apr 17, 2023 13:18:05 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Watts taking WCW over at that time, and how he hadn't watched wrestling in 5 years. So he hadn't watched any wrestling from 1987 until 1992, so he missed Hulk vs Andre Mania III

Watts did see Wrestlemania III. Legend has it that's when he realized his goose was cooked and decided to sell. Story checks out too since he did sell the company to Crockett only 11 days later.

Apr 22, 2023 13:13:25 GMT Neo Zeed said:

1. I read that Watts fired Heyman in January 1993 for falsifying expense reports. In the book it's disputed that that's not true that Watts didn't want to renegotiate Heyman's six figure contract.

2. Can we get a picture painted of a WWF 1993 with Paul E. Dangerously as an active performer?

1. Watts was undeniably a penny pinching cheapskate, but I buy the official story given Heyman's long history of shady financial dealings.

2. This is fascinating. Not because of what Paul E. would do in 1993 WWF, but because of the butterfly effect it has on everything else. Easiest thing to do is simply plug Paul E. into Cornette's primary role as Yoko's American spokesman. Alternate take would be to plug him into Johnny Polo's role managing Adam Bomb and later the Quebecers. And maybe he does a little commentary work. Let's just assume Paul E. ends up in the Cornette role. That means no Corny in WWF for at least a few more years and Paul E. eventually ends up on the booking committee. I actually don't think a ton changes in WWF. The guys Paul E. liked (Austin, Foley, Taker, Rock- probably) were the same guys who eventually reached the top during the AE anyway. But let's look at how it changes the rest of wrestling...

-ECW likely never progresses beyond just another regional fed. It remains Eddie's Championship Wrestling/Memphis North for a little while longer with Eddie in the Lawler role until he inevitably burns his bridge as he always did. Then what? Sandman, Stevie, Mikey, Spike, Public Enemy, etc. never even reach a limited level of fame. Sabu likely becomes even more of a niche cult favorite working midwestern indies and FMW where he's seen as a poor man's Hayabusa even among the most hardcore tape traders. Perhaps Taz peaks as Braun The Leprechaun. (maybe WWF does change after all with Shamrock getting the Taz gimmick and push?) Dreamer likely gets a look because he had...the look and some size. Best case scenario he ends up as Bagwell 2.0. RVD probably gets another look as well, but he wouldn't have that built in fanbase when he does. Raven works SMW like he was supposed to irl before choosing ECW at the last minute, but neither Corny nor the SMW audience really understand the gimmick and it flops. What becomes of Corny when Rick Rubin pulls out? Does WWF bring him in? Do they decide instead to fund SMW as a developmental territory? Do the Eliminators ever catch a break? Do the Dudleys ever come together? I'm not sure they do. Does Shane Douglas ever become a thing? Does hardcore wrestling take a few more years to catch on? I imagine WCW still does something with the Cruiserweights eventually because Bischoff did keep an eye on New Japan.

This could be your next fanfic project!

Who would you book for your WWF 1993 Dangerous Alliance?! 

Apr 26, 2023 6:50:41 GMT Neo Zeed said:

I feel like the edgy stuff we got in 1996 was a good baseline for what a WWF attitude era looks like without the ECW influence, all the stuff with Golddust gay stalking wrestlers, HBK seducing Bulldog's wife(he seduced me! he slept with me!).

See, I think that is already ECW's influence. Russo always claimed Goldust as being largely his own creation and Russo was watching ECW. I suspect Russo was influencing HBK/Diana/Davey, as well. I don't think it's a coincidence the Raven/Beulah/Tommy angle was peaking in January 1996 with the pregnancy reveal. It's all ECW. WWF needs the little bingo hall promotion to exist more than anyone.

Apr 26, 2023 13:04:31 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Who would you book for your WWF 1993 Dangerous Alliance?! 

Easy. If Dangerously=Cornette (or even Johnny Polo) in this universe it means he's already managing Yoko (or The Quebecers) so it's only natural to have Paul E. manage the Foreign Fanatics (Yoko/Borga/Quebecers) as the MOST Dangerous Alliance. Then it gets downgraded back to Dangerous Alliance when stupid Crush replaces Borga. After KOTR 94 it's just Paul E. managing Yoko until that year's Survivor Series. Then Paul E. spends a few months doing commentary on Challenge or Action Zone or whatever and maybe getting an interview show. From Wrestlemania XI on you can just plug him into the Cornette role with those awesome Yoko/Owen/Bulldog/Vader Camp Cornette groups giving the Most Dangerous Alliance a run for their money.

Disagree with Kilgore's take about WWF needing ECW to survive. Who needs ECW when you've got its mastermind right there on your own payroll?! Assuming Dangerously has Cornette's trajectory in this universe that means Paul E. is strictly an on air talent from 93-95*. So WWF isn't going full on Trash TV in 94-95. Alundra Blayze will not be stripping. Owen Hart won't be threatening to whip it out. Diesel isn't going to pull a gun on Razor after Ramon breaks into Shawn's house. The Godwinns won't be Bumfighting with glass taped to their fists.

Paul E joins creative in late 95 just like Cornette did and now he has better, more polished toys to play with than he ever did in ECW. Not even going to speculate on what he might come up with at this point because it would make this long post even longer. I could see him getting along with fellow brash New Yorker Russo. Prichard & Heyman were already friends. While their personalities would clash, Heyman and JR liked a lot of the same wrestlers so they'd often be on the same page in terms of who to push. Of course Vince would still have final say. This is both good and bad. One major plus is Vince putting his foot down to say "No, Paul. We're not going to have the same four matches 37 shows in a row."

*The one hiccup in this timeline is old Heyman enemy Bill Watts being brought in for a cup of coffee in fall '95. Maybe Heyman bolts? Or maybe Heyman rides out The Cowboy's three week stint? Or maybe he bolts and comes back when Watts leaves? It's only 3 weeks. An easy workaround.

I also think the drift to more high spot and hardcore oriented wrestling was inevitable with or without ECW simply because tapes were becoming more widely available with the rise of the internet. Of course aspiring young wrestlers are going to be aping the stuff they're seeing in Japan, Mexico, and even the old school territories. Inevitably somebody is going to remember/rediscover Savage piledriving Morton through a table, Race flopping on a table against Hogan, or Funk piledriving Flair on a table, think "that's cool" and do it themselves. The latter was a really big deal only a few years earlier! Once it happens again in a high profile scenario the cat is out of the bag and tables (or flippidy doos*) become common as bodyslams once were. 

*The Razor/Shawn ladder match had already happened and become the most copied match on the indies. Of course it would ultimately go in a bigger, better, badder direction because that's just how things work. 

Hell In A Cell has nothing to do with Heyman or ECW. It was a Cornette idea inspired by the Sawyer/Rich and Lawler/Idol cage matches. So MAYBE Kilgore is right and Hell In A Cell doesn't exist in this universe. That would be a shame. 

We already know what Paul E. looks like booking in the WWF/E. It's watered down and EXTREMELY temporary before he's quickly replaced. I see no scenario where Paul E. is a major player in booking the WWF during the Monday Night Wars. Feel like the only reason he got cups of coffee booking is because of his success with ECW. Without that, I don't see anyone taking him seriously. He either bolts by 1995 or does a "fuck it I'll just manage who needs this shit" like he's largely seemed to do the past decade. 

And if Paul E. bolts 1995ish, where is he going? Assuming Eastern Championship Wrestling is still going, Eddie Gilbert is dead. Who's bringing him in?

My 1993 WWF Dangerous Alliance

Razor Ramon
Owen Hart
Bam Bam Bigelow
The Headshrinkers

Razor is the closest thing they had to Rick Rude on the roster. Depending on the time, he could still be the top heel and

Owen is right before his break-out 1994, but he feels like the type of talent Paul E would scout, declare the best member of the Hart family and thus the best athlete in the WWF plus Razor-Owen were neighbours in Germany.

I'm going backwards and forwards on whether Bam Bam or Perfect should be the third member. Perfect would be the perfect fit, but we're in the land of giants, outside of losing the KOTR final I can't remember Bam Bam doing anything of importance plus Perfect was winding down at the time. So just the thought of Bam Bam being involved is more interesting than Perfect playing the Larry role.

Like Bam Bam, I think the shrinkers fit in well with Paul E, could use the affiliation and you get the bonus of establishing that connection in the WWE some odd 20 years later when Roman Reigns hits the scene and realises Paul E will save his career.

Big Pete good calls with Bam Bam and the Headshrinkers. Heyman himself has said Bigelow was "the first Paul Heyman guy" and Heyman already has history with the 'Shrinkers having managed them in 1989 NWA.

Apr 27, 2023 4:08:16 GMT Kilgore said:

And if Paul E. bolts 1995ish, where is he going? Assuming Eastern Championship Wrestling is still going, Eddie Gilbert is dead. Who's bringing him in?

Another interesting question.

You're being way too optimistic in assuming Gilbert sticks around ECW until his unfortunate death. Given his track record I had him flaking out some time in 1994. I'm not sure ECW bridges the 9-18 month gap necessary to get from Gilbert to Heyman. Even if it does that still puts us two years behind schedule. Assuming ECW no longer exists....

-USWA is a no go. Promotion was running on fumes, affiliated with WWF, and too incestuous for Heyman to ever get the booking role he coveted.

-I could actually see him having a short run in SMW if the timeline were a bit different. Heyman & Corny got along until they were fighting over the same talent in 94-95. That would never happen in this universe. But SMW is dead in a month or two if we assume Heyman leaves when Watts arrives in Fall 95. Meaning WWF is once again swapping Heyman and Corny in this universe.

-Maybe he buys another regional Northeastern indie? Tod Gordon's short-lived ECW promotion proved there was a market in that area for an alternative take on wrestling.

-But I think the most likely scenario assuming ECW died is a return to WCW. All his political enemies were gone iirc. He'd be fresh off a two year WWF run at a time when WCW was hellbent on collecting every ham and egger who ever worked for the fed. I'm just not sure what they do with him right away. The Horsemen really don't need another manager. Maybe he just does commentary until....

Joining the NWO. He'd be a natural fit as an ex-WWF guy who launched his own (failed) hostile takeover of the company in 91-92. Dibiase as NWO manager was one of those things that works on paper given his WWF history and rich guy gimmick, but everyone agrees it failed in reality. I'm sure Heyman would do a much better job. Maybe he can also schmooze his way onto the booking committee at some point. 

I think Baker is correct that a 1993 Dangerous Alliance would probably just be the Foreign Fanatics, but the Foreign Fanatics is so disappointing compared to the WCW Dangerous Alliance. The Foreign Fanatics suck. So I'm going to do an improbable, would never happen, version, based on the formula of the original Dangerous Alliance.

The formula for the WCW Dangerous Alliance was:

The Ace: Rick Rude
The Future: Steve Austin
The Grizzled Vet: Larry Zbyszko
The Fanfic Dream Tag Team: Arn Anderson and Beautiful Bobby Eaton

Paul E. leaves WCW in late 1992 and arrives in early 1993 as the manager of the debuting Lex Luger (none of that Narcissist bullshit), who definitely needs a mouthpiece. Lex Luger is Paul E's Ace.

With the momentum of Paul E. signing the best free agent available, Paul E. looks on the roster for the young guy he thinks has the most potential to build the foundation of the greatest stable in wrestling today. That man is The Bad Guy Razor Ramon, he is the future. 

The most unrealistic thing I'm going to do, in a series of unrealistic things, is have WWF re-sign Davey Boy Smith in February 1993, before WCW does. 4 month repentance for the HGH thing and now he's back. He's not hated like The Warrior, just bring him back a few months later. He does his thing as a midcard babyface until a later date. We'll deal with him later.

Mr. Perfect, off the heels of the Ric Flair feud is a babyface, but Mr. Perfect should never be a babyface. Have him turn on someone like the Macho Man, to join the Alliance, while also making a worthy foe to insert against any combination of the faction for the rest of the year. Macho vs. Lex/Razor/Perfect throughout 1993. Mr. Perfect is the grizzled vet.

Rick Martel is on the roster, not doing much, and while he's certainly no Arn Anderson or Beautiful Bobby Eaton, he is a great heel with a tag team pedigree. He starts palling around with the Alliance and is the third man in a six man tag team match:

Razor Ramon, Mr. Perfect and Rick Martel vs. Bret Hart, Macho Man Randy Savage and Davey Boy Smith.

They do a whole deal where Bret and Macho need a third man, Bret vouches for his brother-in-law Davey Boy, who (of course) turns on them and causes Razor/Perfect/Martel to win the Six Man. 

And on the heels of that, we now have our Fanfic Dream Tag Team, Davey Boy Smith and Rick Martel. I'm awful at mashup tag team names, someone please give them a cool name for me. 

The WWF Dangerous Alliance:

The Ace: Lex Luger
The Future: Razor Ramon
The Grizzled Vet: Mr. Perfect
The Fanfic Dream Tag Team: Davey Boy Smith and Rick Martel

They're feuding with combinations of Bret Hart, Macho Man Randy Savage, 1-2-3 Kid and The Steiner Bros. Maybe even a couple of 1-2-3 Kid/Marty Jannetty matches vs. Davey/Martel. 

Razor is the first defector as he gets the big babyface turn towards the end of the year. Owen Hart replaces him in early 1994. 

Cornette/Fuji/Polo can keep the shitty Foreign Fanatics, who are even shittier now because:

Sorry, folks. The Yoko megapush is over. Lex Luger kills Hulkamania at King of the Ring instead. He's world champion throughout the rest of the year. There's a period where Razor is IC Champion and Davey Boy/Martel are Tag Team Champions all at the same time.

The Royal Rumble 1994 finish can remain, except swap Macho for Luger, setting up the same WMX two match coin flip gimmick:

Bret vs. Owen
Luger vs. Macho
Luger vs. Bret

Bret's year long chase of Luger finally ends with him winning the gold.

Apr 28, 2023 0:25:39 GMT Kilgore said:

The Foreign Fanatics suck

In terms of some the butterfly effect stuff being discussed, one I've always wondered if, if Corny decides to keep SMW going, instead of closing shop to keep from losing too much money, does Vince ever help secretly fund ECW? With Corny working WWF as way to keep some money flow going SMW, if SMW sticks past 1995, would Vince not want to help ECW, and instead want to help SMW, since he'd be getting Jim to make appearances for WWF, and not so much for the guy that isn't working for him. Or, would he want to only back ECW ( or possibly back both), to have an indie he could pick from in WWF's home area, while having one to take advantage of running shows in WCW territory (possibly pulling in more viewers familiar with a wrestler from SMW).

I cant remember exactly where I left off earlier this year on this watchthrough, I know I made it up to Beach Blast so July then I remember some of the aftermath of Beach Blast, so I recently jumped back into WCW Saturday Night episodes on Peacock going into September 1992 episodes.

The Bill Watts era of 92 was a drag at first but here on the buildup to Halloween Havoc it seems like it's still pretty rad for 1992 WWF alternative. I'm to the point where Shane Douglas makes his debut with a big upset over Super Invader. I guess I feel guilty of being a pretty big Shane Douglas fan I just think he's a great heel and find it interesting how under utilized he was in his career, just content with being the big fish in ECW all those years because he didn't get along with the right people mixed with being just kind of a dickhead that made bad decisions, I guess I can kind of relate to that.

Sweet to see his debut here in 1992 WCW and how big of a deal it was. It made me think of how hard they were pushing Bagwell at the start of 1992 and how the push completely dropped at some point.

Speaking of, I made it to an interesting tag match in an early October 92 episode, it's Shane Douglas/Marcus Bagwell vs Vinnie Vegas and Diamond Dallas Page, whoa! Arn and JR on commentary with WCW Saturday Night vibes. This was a cool match, interesting to see Page and Douglas fighting at this stage of their careers, also Douglas mixing it up with Nash. The finish see's Douglas hit the Belly to Belly on Page for the pinfall. Arn on the replay calls it textbook technique but it actually wasn't, Shane didn't OVERhook the side he spun into like a proper belly to belly, instead he did it from a double underhook position, which is interesting.