Even though they weren't happy with the house numbers, should they have gone through with Hogan/Flair anyway?

Mar 1, 2023 1:27:28 GMT @ness said:

Even though they weren't happy with the house numbers, should they have gone through with Hogan/Flair anyway?

Obviously. 🤯 had to be the only person who would rather have seen Hogan/Sid than Hogan/Flair. 

Looking at average house show attendance for WWF wondering did Hogan/Flair really do bad business. They started working together in October and attendance immediate ticked up. Flair would sometimes work against Piper, but mostly continued wrestling Hogan until January and attendance went up every month! By February, Flair is now champion after the Rumble and he starts working mostly with Piper again, with occasional Hogan/Piper vs. Flair/Sid tag matches and business goes down! March is pretty evenly split between Flair vs. Piper (now cage matches) and the same tag combo of Hogan/Flair vs. Flair/Sid and business ticks back up. Then house show attendance tanks after WrestleMania when Hogan/Flair are no longer linked. Poor Macho is mostly working the Mountie with occasional rematches against Flair, which just happened that month at WrestleMania. No Hogan at all. LOD appear to be the next biggest draws with a very occasional Ultimate Warrior appearance. Macho given no chance at all.

Granted, Hogan vs. Flair only doing 4K-6K attendance probably seemed disappointing, but it looks like it was head and shoulders doing better business than everything else. 

In real time back in the day I would have rather seen Hogan vs Sid over Hogan vs Flair, Hogan vs Sid was like Tyson vs Holyfield level clash. I really did not like Ric Flair, I thought he was like a manager that shouldn't even be wrestling to a WWF kid me, him winning the 92 Rumble blew my little mind, it was like how.

Speaking of random though, I have copied some WCW Saturday Night episodes from January 92 from my laptop to a thumbdrive that plays easily on my TV. On the thumbdrive there is a bunch of football games. After watching Arn vs Dustin Rhodes match from the first episode of Saturday Night it auto-played the 1993 Thanksgiving Day game between the Cowboys vs Dolphins in a rare snow game in Dallas(the Leon Lett game if you know you know).

But in the video around halftime OJ Simpson does an on-field report with his kids playing in the snow and he's wearing the exact gloves from the trial, and they barely fit like his fingers are about to explode out of them exactly the way they fit in the trial(where he was selling them not fitting). So freaky, knowing those murders happened just a few months after this game? The gloves not fitting clearly didn't keep him from wearing them here on this clip, so they missed that in the trial that they just didn't fit right to begin with. 

Jesus what a freaky picture: www.reviewjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/8910879_web1_8910879-8c32d2505f5e4315945607a7e7e06768.jpg

Mar 1, 2023 6:40:57 GMT Kilgore said:

Looking at average house show attendance for WWF wondering did Hogan/Flair really do bad business. They started working together in October and attendance immediate ticked up. Flair would sometimes work against Piper, but mostly continued wrestling Hogan until January and attendance went up every month! By February, Flair is now champion after the Rumble and he starts working mostly with Piper again, with occasional Hogan/Piper vs. Flair/Sid tag matches and business goes down! March is pretty evenly split between Flair vs. Piper (now cage matches) and the same tag combo of Hogan/Flair vs. Flair/Sid and business ticks back up. Then house show attendance tanks after WrestleMania when Hogan/Flair are no longer linked. Poor Macho is mostly working the Mountie with occasional rematches against Flair, which just happened that month at WrestleMania. No Hogan at all. LOD appear to be the next biggest draws with a very occasional Ultimate Warrior appearance. Macho given no chance at all.

Granted, Hogan vs. Flair only doing 4K-6K attendance probably seemed disappointing, but it looks like it was head and shoulders doing better business than everything else. 

That is a crazy drop off there in 92, now I'm interested in seeing all of the numbers for every year. I did a deep dive into AFL-NFL attendance numbers through the 1960's and projected numbers through the 70's in an alternate universe where AFL never merges. My simulation model had NFL going out of business after 77 season(the last few years had teams dying and league constantly realigning divisions to adjust). 

Kilgore keeps exposing all these long held troofs about the business. They were always working us brother. Even when we got smarter they showed their carny colors but going even further into the lie.

And people hate on Hogan was always making Andre out to be even bigger and to a larger crowd. That's why Hulk endured, he was never off. Like how is Jericho not doing the same for Rock and Austin (baybay)? That's the difference between sports entertainer and wrestler. It's not even workrate. That is the true meaning of kayfabe. Hulk rules for all the right and wrong reasons.

Mar 3, 2023 2:13:17 GMT Neo Zeed said:

That is a crazy drop off there in 92, now I'm interested in seeing all of the numbers for every year.

sites.google.com/site/chrisharrington/mookieghana-prowrestlingstatistics/avghouseshow

Got to thinking about Hogan/Flair at work and I have takes...

Before going any further I have to address the elephant in the room. Vince's gut instinct was always to go with the big jacked guy. That's all you need to know for why Sid got the nod over Flair. 

I actually get where Neo Zeed was coming from. I fell somewhere in between him and your slightly older, slightly smarter early 90s fan. I had no idea Hogan/Flair was THE 80s dream match! "Real World Champion" Ric Flair was just another storyline to me and I assumed he would just be another Hogan opponent, no bigger or smaller a deal than a Big Bossman or a Mr. Perfect. I didn't watch enough NWA/WCW to realize Flair jumped ship as their champ and it wouldn't have mattered much even if I had. The NWA Championship was like being the champion of Triple A. Sure, the Minnesota Twins vs. Portland Beavers (or Washington Redskins vs. Washington Huskies if you prefer) would have been a fun novelty, but the outcome would never be in doubt. The Real World Championship was basically the equivalent of the Million Dollar Championship to 1991 me. Of course I liked Flair as the trolling Real World Champion parading around with his fake title. But I also liked The Mountie. And I knew The Mountie would never be scoring wins over The Hulkster in 1991, brother. 

Then Flair shocked the world by winning the Rumble* and making a believer out of me. This dude walked into The House That Hogan built talking smack and parading his fake championship around...and here's the kicker...then he went out and beat Hogan! Proving himself right! At this point Wrestlemania VIII HAD to be Hogan/Flair**. Dream Match...WWF vs. NWA...that stuff meant nothing to me. Flair beat Hogan and now Hogan has to beat Flair because that's just how WWF worked in those days. Only it never happened. Meaning Ric Flair actually won their WWF feud. Hell yeah!

*I've told the story before of how I found out. My best friend at the time watched the Rumble at his sister's boyfriend's place. Next day I ask this Hulkamaniac who won, fully expecting to hear "Hulk Hogan." He sort of beats around the bush while looking like his dog (Shep) just died before finally whispering "Ric Flair." Not sure I heard him right, I ask him to repeat, and he's like "Ric Flair, ok. Leave me alone. I don't want to talk about it." I was over the moon....for about 5 seconds. Then I thought he might be trolling me since not long before he tricked me into thinking Undertaker saw the light by becoming a white clad good guy called Heaven Above. 

**The only argument aside from Vince's natural predilection towards big jacked guys I can see for going with Hogan/Sid is Hogan/Flair would have booked him into a corner. Flair obviously can't win again. That would go against everything WWF had done over the previous 8 years. But you don't really want to have Hogan beat Flair for the title if The Hulkster is going into semi-retirement after 'Mania either. Then you'd have two title vacancies in 3-4 months. BUT if anybody deserved to go out on top it was "The Immortal" Hulk Hogan....the guy the company was built around over the previous 8 years. Then they could have run a huge tournament for the title lasting all spring. Now there's an idea I never, ever would have considered 10-20 years ago. 

Confirm or deny: Didn't WWF do a big angle where Jack Tunney held a press conference with all the top contenders (Hogan, Sid, Taker & Savage iirc) where he actually did announce Hogan as Flair's Wrestlemania opponent only to have Sid complain and then either Tunney changed his mind to go with Flair/Savage, or Hogan backed out of the Flair match on his own acccord to take on that pesky Sid? Did this actually happen or is it another Regal/Frankie Lancaster, Cornette being the KOTR camera man situation?

I also devised a theory based on anecdotal evidence as to why Hogan/Flair underperformed at the box office. For starters, business was already trending down. Then you take an entire generation of young fans like me who came to wrestling through Hulk Hogan. We were WWF kids who either didn't care about NWA, or, as in my case, were only casual viewers who might catch it from time to time, but weren't obsessed with it the way we were WWF. I was more amenable to non-WWF wrestling than every single friend I ever had until the summer of 95*, and even I didn't know Hogan/Flair was supposed to be this huge Dream Match, or why Flair's title was so important. If I didn't know how big a deal Flair/Hogan was supposed to be after five glorious years of fandom my friends had no shot. Basically to my generation of WWF firsters Hogan/Flair was just another match rather than a dream match eight years in the making. 

*Told the story before of how I only heard the other kids talking about NWA/WCW twice during my entire childhood. The Black Scorpion angle generated playground buzz and one time my buddy Greg did Cactus Jack's "Bang Bang" taunt at soccer practice around August/September 92. That's it. Tried getting my brother (who was even off WWF by that point, to be fair) and Matt The IRS fan into WCW circa 93-94. Both efforts flopped hard. 

Mar 2, 2023 7:04:10 GMT Neo Zeed said:

it auto-played the 1993 Thanksgiving Day game between the Cowboys vs Dolphins in a rare snow game in Dallas(the Leon Lett game if you know you know).

Oh I know. Caught The Moment at my grandmother's after we dropped her off from my uncle's. One of the all time biggest sports boners. That, along with his Super Bowl oopsie, lead to Leon Lett becoming an early meme on the sports radio talk show I listened to around that time. 

What was the capacity of the Garden in 91/92?

Because Flair spoke about this a couple of years back and blamed the business they drew there as the company having cold feet. According to History of WWE and CageMatch the shows drew 11,000 and 15,000 each both at capacity apparently. SummerSlam 1991 drew 17,474 which sounds like one of those figures Meltzer specifically got confirmation on.

I wouldn't be shocked if Vince saw those gates at the Garden and got cold feet. Meanwhile Hogan listened to the fans, realised this was hurting his brand and went the Sid route.

Every Flair vs. Hogan 91-92 WWF Match With Reported Attendance Numbers

10/25/91- Oakland, CA- 14,900 (13,400 paid)
10/26/91- Los Angeles, CA- 13,800 (12,400 paid)
10/27/91- Tempe, AZ- 5,600
11/1/91- Pittsburgh, PA- 10,800
11/2/91- Milwaukee, WI- 7,800
11/3/91- Moline, IL- 6,500 (sellout)
11/3/91- Champaign, IL- 6,300
11/4/91- Denver, CO- 6,400
11/9/91- Cincinnati, OH- 6,000
11/12/91- Springfield, MA- 8,900 (sellout- Hogan sub for Piper. TV Taping)
11/14/91- Portland, OR- 7,000
11/15/91- San Francisco, CA- 5,000
11/16/91- Anaheim, CA- 6,300
11/16/91- San Diego, CA- 7,000 (just shy of a sellout)
11/17/91- Fresno, CA- 5,000
11/22/91- Richfield, OH- 10,000
11/24/91- Chicago, IL- 9,000 (8,000 paid)
11/30/91- Philadelphia, PA- 10,318
11/30/91- New York, NY- 15,000
12/4/91- Austin, TX- 7,500 (heavily papered)
12/8/91- St. Louis, MO- 7,900
12/14/91- Honolulu, HI- 18,000
12/26/91- Landover, MD- 6,212 (*this is a poor number. less than half full. still considerably more than the 3,800 WWF drew in November though)
12/27/91- Richmond, VA- 9,000
12/28/91- Minneapolis, MN- 9,000
12/29/91- New York, NY- 11,000
=============
1/5/92- Atlanta, GA- 4,500 (*ouch)
1/6/92- Miami, FL- 6,000
1/7/92- Daytona Beach, FL- 12,000 (TV Taping)
1/11/92- Philadelphia, PA- 12,842 (*up 2,500 from November when Flair/Hogan also headlined)
1/12/92- Hamilton, ON- 6,000
1/18/92- Boston, MA- 15,000 (sellout)
1/20/92- Montreal, Q- 10,992
*From here on out it's mostly Flair/Piper in singles or Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Partner in tags
2/15/92- Orlando, FL- 4,600 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Undertaker)
2/16/92- Auburn Hills, MI- 6,000 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Undertaker)
2/17/92- Tampa, FL- 10,000 (TV Taping)
2/18/92- West Palm Beach, FL- 5,000 (sellout. TV Taping. Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid)
2/22/92- Minneapolis, MN- 5,600 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid)
2/23/92- Hartford, CT- 5,500 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid)
2/28/92- Pittsburgh, PA- 12,500 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid- up 1,700 from Hogan/Flair in November)
2/29/92- Boston, MA- 10,000 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid- down 5,000 from Hogan/Flair in January)
3/7/92- Chicago, IL- 7,500 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid- down from Hogan/Flair in November)
3/8/92- Nashville, TN- 4,000
3/15/92- Oakland, CA- 13,000 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid- only down slightly from the 2nd ever Hogan/Flair match in October)
3/15/92- San Diego, CA- 5,800 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid- down 1,200 from Hogan/Flair in November)
3/20/92- Philadelphia, PA- 11,500 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid- up 1,100+ from Hogan/Flair in November)
3/22/92- Toronto, ON- 6,500 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid)
3/23/92- New York, NY- 9,000 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid- down 2,000 from Flair/Hogan in December and down 6,000 from November) 
3/28/92- Los Angeles, CA- 7,000 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid- down at least 5,400 from Flair/Hogan in October)
3/28/92- Sacramento, CA- 8,600 (Hogan & Piper vs. Flair & Sid)
3/29/92- Auburn Hills, MI- 6,000 (Hogan & Savage vs. Flair & Sid- same # as a February tag match)
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Verdict: Even if Flair/Hogan wasn't doing the record business I assume many predicted, it was still outdrawing everything else WWF had to offer in 91-92

Mar 3, 2023 2:58:21 GMT Big Pete said:

What was the capacity of the Garden in 91/92?

Close to 20,000

Mar 3, 2023 4:46:05 GMT Baker said:

Mar 3, 2023 2:58:21 GMT Big Pete said:

What was the capacity of the Garden in 91/92?

Close to 20,000

WrestleMania X was sold out and just over 18,000 in 1994, so that was the MSG capacity (for wrestling) in those days (SummerSlam '91 being just under confirms that). 20K in wrestling was always kayfabe, I imagine. Just sounds cooler. 

Mar 3, 2023 4:29:04 GMT Baker said:

Every Flair vs. Hogan 91-92 WWF Match With Reported Attendance Numbers


==============
Verdict: Even if Flair/Hogan wasn't doing the record business I assume many predicted, it was still outdrawing everything else WWF had to offer in 91-92

So much more in depth than my quick look and there is no doubt about it now, Hogan/Flair was the route to go. We will no longer accept Vince McMahon's lies. 

Mar 3, 2023 5:19:27 GMT Kilgore said:

Mar 3, 2023 4:46:05 GMT Baker said:

Close to 20,000

WrestleMania X was sold out and just over 18,000 in 1994, so that was the MSG capacity (for wrestling) in those days (SummerSlam '91 being just under confirms that). 20K in wrestling was always kayfabe, I imagine. Just sounds cooler. 

It was hard for me to pinpoint.

70s and early 80s had attendance figures over 20,000 before settling on the generic 20,000 as the sellout number by the late 80s
By your Wrestlemania X 18,000 and change was a sellout
By the late 90s it's 16,000 and change

I just went with the generic "close to 20,000" with the assumption that those later sellouts with smaller numbers had to do with how the building was configured

One last theory before bed on why no Hogan/Flair at WM 8...

Story has always been WWF wanted fresh matches for their Wrestlemania main events. No time to fact check right now because tired, but my gut tells me 1-7 were headlined by fresh matchups*. Meanwhile, here you had Flair & Hogan wrestling on house shows in many of the major markets going all the way back to October. Just a theory...

*I know Hogan/Savage worked a house show program in 86, but that was 3 years and 2 Savage turns ago, meaning it was fresh again by 1989. Hogan/Andre was fresher still since the millions....and millions of new fans Hogan brought to the pseudosport likely had no idea their hero had once a bad guy feuding with Andre in 1980.