Baker don't you have that Top 100 Quarterbacks book from the late 80's/early 90's? I remember renting it from the library and it was rad as fuck. I'm pretty obsessed with top 100 NFL lists. I started a top 100 QB's list and learned that once you get to 50-60 you have some fairly questionable names cracking in the list in the last 30 spots. So a top 100 QB's list made over 30 years ago I imagine would have some deep cuts on it, I'm curious what the rankings in that book were. Definitely plan to snag a cheap copy one day. I remember that was where I learned about Neil Lomax. 

Feeling the itch to revive the old AFL revision history project. That was one thing I loved about that project(it ran on Wrestlingclique for several years, going back to the old PW there was a 2 project limit that I had reached with my UFC fed so had to take that one over there). The beauty of it was that no matter how long it laid dormant it was always easy to just jump right back into it, a project that could just run perpetually without end forever. 

The interesting thing about Glanville to me is how little respect he had from other coaches around the NFL, he was viewed as a major ass clown and they gave him the keys to a fucking stacked elite roster chocked full of 1st round draft picks, pro bowlers, and all pros. Huge waste. Then replaced him with a college football gimmick coach that turned into the Fonz from water boy the minute there was any pressure on him. I'm curious now what other coaches were available in 1986-87 what other options they had. I read they interviewed one of the 49ers assistants I forget his name but there was a quote in the book from him being unhappy about the interview because it was a waste of time, they were already dead set on hiring Glanville. Not sure who else was available in 1987 but I do think Pardee should have gotten the axe immediately after the Buffalo comeback. People put a lot of blame on the 93 season on Buddy Ryan but all of his interviews his criticism of Pardee/Gilbride were all spot on, he was right about everything and he had that defense killing everyone. If not giving him the head coach job another available name was Dan Reeves, who turned the Giants around his first year in 93, they nearly won the division and he got a great season out of aging old Phil Simms. Maybe could have been interesting to see what he would have done with that Oilers team in 93 had he not gone to NY. 

Neo Zeed I’ll see if I can find 100 Greatest Quarterbacks (and running backs). If so I will make more TABLES this evening. Books came out like 35 years ago so there are all kinds of deep cuts.

And a big YES to more AFL fanfic.

Aug 13, 2023 13:52:35 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Baker don't you have that Top 100 Quarterbacks book from the late 80's/early 90's?

Found it! Along with 100 Greatest Running Backs.

I remember renting it from the library and it was rad as fuck.

Best football books I ever found at the library were this history of every individual team series. Books came out around 84ish but I didn't read them until 89-90. I devoured those books. Would get a new batch every time we went to the Loch Raven branch.

And while I'm here shoutout to the Canton branch for introducing me to the great Zander Hollander through his 1985 Complete Handbook of Baseball circa 1989. Those books spoke to kiddie me. The Complete Handbooks of Baseball/Football/Basketball were to 89-95 me what the Apter Mags & PWI Almanacs were to my 95-98 self.

I'm pretty obsessed with top 100 NFL lists.

Obsessed you say? Want me to post lists in table format? You'll love all the deep cuts. I'm getting annoyed at some of the rankings as I sit here typing this lol

Aug 13, 2023 23:34:40 GMT Baker said:

Aug 13, 2023 13:52:35 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Obsessed you say? Want me to post lists in table format? You'll love all the deep cuts. I'm getting annoyed at some of the rankings as I sit here typing this lol

Combing through 100 Greatest Quarterbacks now. Seeing all the stats reminded me of creating my own QB Rating system. I could never figure out how they did the official NFL recognized version so I came up with my own formula that I would sporadically tweak over the years until finally losing interest for good some time in the early 2010s. Remember once having sheets of paper in this book QBRing every season mentioned within. Sid Luckman had a monster 1943! And I could never figure out how Milt Plum's 1960 held the QB Rating record until Montana finally broke it in 1989. Like how was Milt Plum's (very good!) 1960 better than Dan Marino's 1984? Anyway, table time~! Check back in about an hour.

100 Greatest Quarterbacks as of August 1988

1. Johnny Unitas	21. joe namath	41. Norm Snead	61. Billy Wade	81. James Harris
2. Otto Graham	22. George Blanda	42. Jack Kemp	62. Joe Ferguson	82. Vince Ferragamo
3. Dan Marino	23. Bob Waterfield	43. Frank Ryan	63. Paul Christman	83. Frank Filchock
4. Roger Staubach	24. Ken Anderson	44. Milt Plum	64. Frank Tripucka	84. Boomer Esiason
5. Joe Montana	25. Arnie Herber	45. Craig Morton	65. Steve Grogan	85. Tom Flores
6. Bart Starr	26. Roman Gabriel	46. Jim Hart	66. NEIL LOMAX	86. Bill Kenney
7. YA Tittle	27. Tommy Thompson	47. Charley Johnson	67. Joe Kapp	87. Steve Bartkowski
8. Norm Van Brocklin	28. Joe Theismann	48. Ace Parker	68. Ed Brown	88. Tommy Kramer
9. Terry Bradshaw	29. Bert Jones	49. Earl Morrall	69. Dave Krieg	89. Jay Schroeder
10. Dan Fouts	30. Phil Simms	50. Archie Manning	70. Tony Eason	90. Richard Todd
11. Sid Luckman	31. Ron Jaworski	51. Cecil Isbell	71. Ken O'Brien	91. Zeke Bratkowski
12. Sammy Baugh	32. Paddy Driscoll	52. Tobin Rote	72. Jim Kelly	92. Bernie Masterson
13. Bobby Layne	33. John Brodie	53. Brian Sipe	73. Tommy O'Connell	93. Pete Beathard
14. Fran Tarkenton	34. Don Meredith	54. Danny White	74. Bernie Kosar	94. Pat Haden
15. Len Dawson	35. Jimmy Conzelman	55. JOHN ELWAY	75. Eddie LeBaron	95. Rudy Bukich
16. Sonny Jurgensen	36. Jim McMahon	56. Johnny Lujack	76. Harry Newman	96. Greg Cook
17. Dutch Clark	37. Charlie Conerly	57. John Hadl	77. Parker Hall	97. Greg Landry
18. Jim Plunkett	38. Ed Danowski	58. Lynn Dickey	78. Dan Pastorini	98. Steve DeBerg
19. Ken Stabler	39. Daryle Lamonica	59. Babe Parilli	79. Warren Moon	99. Bobby Douglass
20. Bob Griese	40. Doug Williams	60. Billy Kilmer	80. Gary Danielson	100. Jim Zorn

Aug 14, 2023 2:48:33 GMT Baker said:

100 Greatest Quarterbacks as of August 1988

1. Johnny Unitas	21. joe namath	41. Norm Snead	61. Billy Wade	81. James Harris
2. Otto Graham	22. George Blanda	42. Jack Kemp	62. Joe Ferguson	82. Vince Ferragamo
3. Dan Marino	23. Bob Waterfield	43. Frank Ryan	63. Paul Christman	83. Frank Filchock
4. Roger Staubach	24. Ken Anderson	44. Milt Plum	64. Frank Tripucka	84. Boomer Esiason
5. Joe Montana	25. Arnie Herber	45. Craig Morton	65. Steve Grogan	85. Tom Flores
6. Bart Starr	26. Roman Gabriel	46. Jim Hart	66. NEIL LOMAX	86. Bill Kenney
7. YA Tittle	27. Tommy Thompson	47. Charley Johnson	67. Joe Kapp	87. Steve Bartkowski
8. Norm Van Brocklin	28. Joe Theismann	48. Ace Parker	68. Ed Brown	88. Tommy Kramer
9. Terry Bradshaw	29. Bert Jones	49. Earl Morrall	69. Dave Krieg	89. Jay Schroeder
10. Dan Fouts	30. Phil Simms	50. Archie Manning	70. Tony Eason	90. Richard Todd
11. Sid Luckman	31. Ron Jaworski	51. Cecil Isbell	71. Ken O'Brien	91. Zeke Bratkowski
12. Sammy Baugh	32. Paddy Driscoll	52. Tobin Rote	72. Jim Kelly	92. Bernie Masterson
13. Bobby Layne	33. John Brodie	53. Brian Sipe	73. Tommy O'Connell	93. Pete Beathard
14. Fran Tarkenton	34. Don Meredith	54. Danny White	74. Bernie Kosar	94. Pat Haden
15. Len Dawson	35. Jimmy Conzelman	55. JOHN ELWAY	75. Eddie LeBaron	95. Rudy Bukich
16. Sonny Jurgensen	36. Jim McMahon	56. Johnny Lujack	76. Harry Newman	96. Greg Cook
17. Dutch Clark	37. Charlie Conerly	57. John Hadl	77. Parker Hall	97. Greg Landry
18. Jim Plunkett	38. Ed Danowski	58. Lynn Dickey	78. Dan Pastorini	98. Steve DeBerg
19. Ken Stabler	39. Daryle Lamonica	59. Babe Parilli	79. Warren Moon	99. Bobby Douglass
20. Bob Griese	40. Doug Williams	60. Billy Kilmer	80. Gary Danielson	100. Jim Zorn

Man that’s the good stuff! You are the man! ❤️

Interesting they put Marino that high on just his first 4 years, even ranking him over Montana who had won 2 rings at least. Im thinking this was released before the game winning drive in Super Bowl 23? I feel like that was what made him a legend, with Super Bowl 24 pushing him into a god.

Dutch Clark all the way up at 17, wasn’t he a running back? Played in the 30’s I remember writing about him for my write up for the 1935 Lions championship season.

Missed the part of your post where you said the book came out August 1988, so interesting.

At that point in history I'm good with Johnny Unitas #1, that works good for me.

Otto Graham #2 I'm not quite as big a fan of. Otto I find to be like a few other original Browns to be overrated because half their careers were in the AAFC, I can't acknowledge that league or it's stats/championships as level with the NFL or even the same status as the AFL. Paul Brown being the legend he was and that league not having any type of draft, that Browns team had first dibs on any player worth a fuck going into the formation of that league. I can't count Otto's 4 AAFC Championships as World Championships, to me the AAFC was a minor league outside of the Browns and a decent 49ers club.

So Otto Graham being ranked that high on 6 years in the NFL compared to what Dan Fouts or Len Dawson had done in their overall careers I dont like it. Len Dawson was the all time leader in AFL passing and won a Super Bowl, Fouts shattered every record and at the time that book was published had to have been at or near the top of the all time career leaders in every major category.

I do think Marino is too high just based on his 1983-1987 career, 5 years.

Bradshaw seems low.

Sammy Baugh seems low, being the first real true star quarterback in the league and had some career marks that lasted for a while if I remember correctly.

Dutch Clark at 17 is way high, I think he only played 5-6 years in the 1930's and more of a runner than a passer if I'm not mistaken.

I'm thinking whoever did the list was a Lions fan I noticed a few other deep cuts that were Lions that were guys I had never heard of. I was looking a lot of guys up on my phone at lunch today I can't remember who was who now. A few of the names were career backups that maybe had 1 full year as a starter and that year wasn't all that great.

Jim Plunkett directly over Ken Stabler, eek.

Namath seems low.

Look at Bert Jones cracking the top 30. I'm ok with that since this being based on up to 1987.

Phil Simms seems way high, how long had he even been in the league by 87? I'm guessing his near perfect performance in Super Bowl XXI roughly a year or so before this book came out has a lot to do with it.

Danny White all the way down at 54 seems criminal, way underrated QB.

Love seeing Elway, Kelly, Moon the future of the league at this point in 87 cracking the list.

I want to say there were some AFL guys that could/should have cracked this list. They definitely had to dig deep to make it a 100, which is something I realized when trying to make my own list modern day. It really showcases how difficult of a position it is when there have been 100 seasons and all those teams, all those guys that played the position and really truly there were only about 50 quarterbacks in all that time you could really say were great.

Come to think of it Elway all the way down at 55 is way low, he had been MVP the year before the book came out, The Drive in 1986 playoffs, back to back AFC Champs.

And whoah Jim Mcmahon way high, almost 20 spots over Elway

Great posts Neo Zeed. Love to see us in agreement. Have a feeling I'll get days of posting out of that list.

I'll confess to making up the "August" part of August 1988. It was just shorthand for "book came out prior to the 1988 season."

Agree with you on the Montana vs. Marino debate. Montana already had two Super Bowl wins and a few years on Dan while Marino's big claim to fame was smashing all the major single season passing records during his blockbuster 1984 campaign. Really boils down to the old championships vs. stats debate. Or Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain to put it another way. Pretty sure 100 Greatest Basketball players (another book I had) went with Russell over Wilt. Another line of thinking for Marino > Montana in 1988 comes from a throwback Apter Mag article. Writer put Nikita Koloff in the all time Top 10 with his logic being "Betting on Secretariat was a gamble too." Easy to assume Marino would continue to shatter records and eventually win the big one. Well, Marino, like Nikita, peaked early. And of course Montana would render that discussion moot over the next two years to become the consensus GOAT throughout the 90s & 2000s.

You got me going down a Dutch Clark rabbit hole today and....it's complicated. Some sources list him as a QB. Others a TB or RB. Guy on Youtube said he was only considered a QB on a technicality since he called his team's plays. But he did throw between 26 & 71 passes during his five full time seasons which isn't THAT low considering he played during the Three Yards and a Cloud of Dust era. For example he ranked 4th once and 6th twice in passing. He was also the Lions primary punter and kicker while playing defense as well. A real all arounder. So I'm going to consider him a QB with the caveat that the position was VERY different in those days. Actually just remember there were a few names in both 100 Greatest Quarterback and Running Backs. Lemme go see if Dutch is one of them....

Yep. Dutch is one. Paddy Driscoll is the other.

*More later

Aug 14, 2023 23:32:47 GMT Neo Zeed said:

At that point in history I'm good with Johnny Unitas #1, that works good for me.

I do think Marino is too high just based on his 1983-1987 career, 5 years.

Bradshaw seems low.

Dutch Clark at 17 is way high, I think he only played 5-6 years in the 1930's and more of a runner than a passer if I'm not mistaken.

Jim Plunkett directly over Ken Stabler, eek.

And whoah Jim Mcmahon way high, almost 20 spots over Elway

Come to think of it Elway all the way down at 55 is way low, he had been MVP the year before the book came out, The Drive in 1986 playoffs, back to back AFC Champs.

Love seeing Elway, Kelly, Moon the future of the league at this point in 87 cracking the list.

They definitely had to dig deep to make it a 100

^Strong agree with all this. McMahon at #36 is especially galling. He was all hype and persona. I'm tempted to call him the Namath of the 80s, but even Broadway Joe had that one huge year and a few other decent ones. McMahon was Trent Dilfer with media savvy. 

Author Roland Lazenby writes in the introduction "There are about 40 truly great quarterbacks. The next 60 or so are a toss up." I don't even think there were 40 at the time. More like 20-25 and even that might be generous. Also in the introduction he writes "Others are mere journeymen, whose careers are memorable because of their longevity or because they included a particularly productive season." Basically saying way back in 1988 one good season was all it took to crack the list. 
=================

Aug 14, 2023 23:32:47 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Bradshaw seems low.

Sammy Baugh seems low, being the first real true star quarterback in the league and had some career marks that lasted for a while if I remember correctly.

I'm thinking whoever did the list was a Lions fan I noticed a few other deep cuts that were Lions that were guys I had never heard of. I was looking a lot of guys up on my phone at lunch today I can't remember who was who now. A few of the names were career backups that maybe had 1 full year as a starter and that year wasn't all that great.

Look at Bert Jones cracking the top 30. I'm ok with that since this being based on up to 1987.

Phil Simms seems way high, how long had he even been in the league by 87? I'm guessing his near perfect performance in Super Bowl XXI roughly a year or so before this book came out has a lot to do with it.

Danny White all the way down at 54 seems criminal, way underrated QB.

Neutral on all this. Thought Doug Williams at #40 was more egregious than Simms at #30. Both guys were surely boosted by recent Super Bowl wins in which they put forth stellar performances. Upon further review I'll actually agree with you on Danny White.

Never noticed the Lions thing before. At a quick glance they had the aforementioned Dutch, winner Bobby Layne, Gary Danielson, and Greg Landry. Danielson & Landry could be considered a stretch. Honestly don't know/remember a ton about those guys other than Danielson being one of those journeyman backups of my youth while Landry was considered a scrambler during his era. 
================

Aug 14, 2023 23:32:47 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Otto Graham #2 I'm not quite as big a fan of.

Namath seems low.

Joe Namath can never be low enough! lol. I'm a hater as Broadway Joe is my least favorite old school footballer. Some of us never got over Super Bowl III! And he really was an interception machine boosted by the NY hype machine.

I don't mind Otto at #2 on the "Bill Russell winner" principle. Even if you discount the AAFC stuff he still led the Browns to 6 NFL Championship games in 6 years. Counting the AAFC he went to 10 in 10. And didn't he retire as the all time QB Rating leader? Old timers (especially here in Baltimore) would go to bat for Unitas as the GOAT well into the 90s, and even the 2000s, but I came across a few old old timers in books or on tv who were still flying the flag for Otto into the 90s.
==============
Agree with you on Fouts & Dawson being great though. Fouts was the Marino-style record breaker of his day and when I did an old school QB deep dive about a decade ago the three names I remember really standing out stats-wise were Dawson, Ken Stabler, and the criminally underrated (though surprisingly not here) Ken Anderson. 

Fun Fact: My brother and I referred to him as "Ya" Tittle. Not "why ay" but "Ya." He held the single season TD pass mark at 36 for over twenty years.

How about those old school Rams running a QB platoon with #8 Norm Van Brocklin & #23 Bob Waterfield? That would be like the 49ers alternating between Montana & Young.

#14 Fran Tarkenton is way too low and I'd actually be fine with him at #2. He held most of the career passing marks in 1988 and did lead the Vikings to 3 Super Bowls, though admittedly never winning one.

#22 George Blanda is one of my favorite old school footballers. Played from the 40s through the 70s. Kicked as well. Experienced a career resurgence as an old man in your beloved AFL.

#46 Jim Hart & #57 John Hadl were guys I learned about through the book. Both were among the career leaders in most major passing categories at the time of publication. That leads me to believe they were underrated on the list, though they could just of easily have been the Vinny & Kerry stat compilers of their day who hung around long after they should have hung up the cleats.

#70 Tony Eason & #71 Ken O'Brien back to back is the way it ought to be. I always lump those two together. Drafted the same year. Both played in the AFC East. Eason (kind of) took his team to a Super Bowl but O'Brien ended up having the better overall career.

Still laughable in hindsight to see those two over AFC East rival and future Hall of Famer #72 Jim Kelly though.

#69 Dave Krieg was the rich man's Ken O'Brien whose major claim to fame with me was surprisingly being Top 5 in career QB Rating around the time this book came out.

#74 Bernie Kosar feels too low from a 1988 perspective. Maybe #84 Boomer as well. Esiason surely would have jumped a good 30 spots if the book came out one year later.

Neat to see Houston's Pastorini & Moon back to back at #78 & #79. This would be the last time anybody, anywhere rated Pastorini over Moon. 

#99 Bobby Douglass is an interesting case. He set the QB rushing record in the early 70s with 968 yards in a 14 game season. Record wouldn't be broken until Vick in....2006, I think it was. Douglass, a rare southpaw, couldn't pass worth a lick though. 

Neo Zeed picked the wrong NFC Central/North team. Forget the Lions. There are Packers and Bears all over that list.
===============
Been watching old school NFL videos on and off since work ended- Greatest One Year Wonders. One on Greg Cook. Another on Otto Graham. NFL Films 50 Greatest Quarterbacks until taking a break during an extended Joe Namath segment lol

Baker ,I think I looked up #95 Rudy Bukich today, he had a long career but only like 5 years with any significant starting time, including a nice one hit wonder season in 1965 with the Bears that I have never looked into/realized before this countdown. He had a pretty great season that year went 9-5 as a starter with something like 22 touchdowns and only 9 interceptions, which is pretty great numbers for that era for a full 14 starts in that division. He led the league in a lot of passing stats including attempts/completions, touchdown percentage, maybe completion percentage. The Bears were 2nd in offense and 2nd in defense that year, had Gale Sayers and Dick Butkus as rookies, also Mike Ditka at TE, really interesting season(the 49ers blowout that year was Gale's 6 TD game, after scoring 5 TD's he ran a punt back in the 4th quarter 85 yards for his 6th touchdown, jesus). Despite going 9-5 they finished 3rd behind Baltimore/Green Bay(which where tied at 10-3-1 I believe), they did beat Green Bay that year they went on to win their first of 3 titles in a row.

The Gale Sayers 6 TD game got some love in another one of my favorite childhood football books...



Does this mean I'm gonna have to once again dig through the big old chest full of ancient books? Yes. Yes, it does...

Looked up a bunch of the 100 Greatest's stats over the past few days and good grief was Zeke Bratkowski bad. I'd be shocked if he isn't the worst post-WW2 QB on the list. He doesn't even have that one good season where you can kinda sorta see why he made it. Nobi check this bum out. A career backup who threw almost twice as many interceptions as touchdowns...
www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BratZe00.htm

Lets do this:

#100. Jim Zorn- Seems pretty low considering a lot of these names ahead of him. Played from 1976 to 1987 retiring a year before the book came out. I didn't know he actually finished his career playing for the Packers in 1985, he missed 1986(USFL?) before finishing his career as a back up in Tampa Bay riding the bench in 1987. But come to think of it maybe I didn't realize how brief his prime was. He struggled pretty bad his first 2 years on the Expansion Seahawks in 76-77. But in 1978 he got a few MVP votes, finished 9-7 as a starter, had 3 fourth quarter comeback wins and 4 game winning drives though 15 TDs and 20 INTs was not good. Had probably his best year the next season 1979 with another 9-7 run, over 3,600 yards and 20 TDs/18 ints. From 1980 to 1983 Zorn really actually wasn't very good. I think he lost his starting job in 1983 and he actually wasn't a part of either of those 83-84 Seahawk playoff runs.

#99. Bobby Douglas- Bears QB from 1969 to 1975, held the record for rushing yards for a QB with his 968 yards in 1972, averaged 6.9 yards per carry that year but went 4-9-1 as a starter with a 37.9% completion percentage, 9 td passes and 12 ints. That was his only real season as a starter, he started 12 games the next year in 1973 went 3-9 and just barely cracked over 1,000 passing yards in 12 starts. He started a grand total of 12 games combined in the 5 years after that he played as a backup. Non-existent stats as a passer, only that 968 rushing yards performance in '72 to hang his hat on.

#98. Steve Deberg seems like an alright ranking now but considering this came out in 1988 this was a scraping the barrel inclusion. Deberg had been in the NFL 11 years when these rankings came out, had a win-loss record of 24-66 as a starter, 132 touchdowns vs 155 interceptions. Crazy he was already playing on his 4th team by 1988, he went 3-23 on those early Bill Walsh pre-Montana 49ers teams before going to Denver in 1981. His best season would either be his 1983 season in Denver when he went 4-1 as a starter with 4 game winning drives(not sure if he was the starter going into that season or backup to rookie Elway). The next season went to Tampa 1984 and had his best year at 5-8 as a starter with 3,554 yards 19 tds and 18 ints. Interesting that Deberg's best years came after this book/rankings came out, his combined stats for his 1989-1991 seasons; 27-14 as a starter, 51 tds-34 ints, he retired after the 1993 season but came out of retirement to backup Chris Chandler on the 98 Falcons? Wow.

97. Greg Landry- Another guy I had never really heard of or looked into until this countdown, played for Detroit from 1968 to 1978. He was the starter in the Lions 5-0 loss to Dallas in the 1970 playoffs, he only threw 12 passes the whole game for 48 yards and was tackled for a safety at one point in the 4th quarter. His best years were decent only in 1971-1972(he made the pro bowl in 1971 but neither season really stands out statistically, slightly above average numbers even for their era), he somehow hung around the league until 1984 in Baltimore, I'm assuming his 2-10 season in 1979 was one of those years Bert Jones went down with an injury.

#96. Greg Cook- What a questionable ranking, perhaps the most egregious. I've heard the stories that Bill Walsh and Paul Brown thought he could have been an all time legend. He was AFL rookie of the year I want to say this was the 1969 Bengals expansion season? His stats don't show the hype, 4-6-1 as a starter, 15 touchdowns and 11 interceptions that year. He gets a career ending shoulder injury and that was it.

Redoing these rankings on my way through(cutting this off at the 1988 season when the book came out): 

100. Greg Cook
99. Bobby Douglas
98. Steve Deberg
97. Greg Landry
96. Jim Zorn

#95. Rudy Bukich is one that intrigued me, he barely played from 1953 to 1959, bounced from the Rams to the Redskins to the Bears, got cut and finally got some playing time with the Steelers in 1960-1961(went 4-4 as a starter in 1961), ended up going back to the Bears in 1962 but was a bench warmer, rarely played any on the Bears 1963 Championship team. He gets called on in the 1964 season plays amazingly in 3 straight wins and puts up ratings over 100. in all 3 games before getting injured in his 4th start against Green Bay. Comes in as the full time starter in 1965 and has a phenomenal one hit wonder season going 9-3 throwing to Ditka and rookie phenom Gale Sayers. So combined in his 16 starts in 1964-1965 he goes 12-4, 275/472 for 58.3%, with 3,740 yards, 32 tds vs 16 ints. Those are pretty spectacular numbers for that era. The next season 1966 he really struggled badly and that was it, he rode the bench for two more years before being out of the league after 1968. I would say so far in the countdown this was a good ranking for him, I'd keep him edged over Zorn at the #95 start since both guys primes lasted about the same, Zorn played more but Bukich's peak was higher in a far tougher era to play the position.

#94 Pat Haden- The name sounds familiar but I guess count this one as another new discovery and another fascinating under the radar one hit wonder. He only played for the Rams from 1976 to 1981, six years. He was a winner but only played partial seasons in 1976 and 1977 before breaking out with a 12-4 performance in 1978. Was 5 yards shy of 3,000 with 13 tds and 19 ints, nothing special but the bold stat on that line is what is eye popping, he had 6 game winning drives that year, which has to be up there near the record. He led the Rams to a win over the Vikings in the playoffs that year but threw 3 interceptions in their loss in the NFC Championship to Dallas. The next season went 5-5 before going down with an injury is when Vince Ferragamo came in and led the Rams to the Super Bowl, Haden was out of the league two years later.

#93. Pete Beathard- Being sneaky filling out this top 100 with names like this guy, career backup that astonishingly managed to hang around the league for 10 years, actually backed up Len Dawson in KC in the AFL from 1964 to 1967 before mid-season trade to the Oilers. Immediately started for the Oilers went 7-2 and led them to the 1967 AFL Championship(where they were annihilated by the Raiders) but his stats that season weren't great, then really struggled as starter for the Oilers in 68-69. Went to the St. Louis Cardinals after the merger, finished career riding bench for Rams and Chiefs before retiring after 1973.

#92. Bernie Masterson- old school Bear from the 30's, part of that first generation of real quarterbacks that essentially had a 30 pound basketball with laces to throw. No real stats to show as it was really a different sport back then. He was the starter on the team that lost to Sammy Baugh's Redskins in 1937 NFL title game(epic for that era). He was a part of the 1940 Championship team but I think he barely played and was mostly a backup. Would have to question his ranking here sine he doesn't have much of a legacy even for his era.

#91. Zeke Bratkowski- Baker already pointed out his absurd career, amazing that he was able to hang around as long as he did. His career spread across 3 decades, started out with the Bears in 1958, spent 1961 to 1963 with the Rams before being traded mid-season in 1963 to the Packers to backup Bart Starr for the rest of his career. The only thing that you could really say he has to hang his hat on as an NFL quarterback was his victory as a starter on the 1966 Packers Super Bowl season, he started for the hurt Bart Starr and led the Packers to a win over the Rams in LA threw for 245 yards and a critical touchdown in a 27-23 win over the Fearsome Foursome. He also went 1-1 in place of Starr the next year so at least he had some critical wins as a part of 2 Super Bowl teams.

New rankings so far(1920-1987):

100. Greg Cook
99. Bobby Douglas
98. Zeke Bratkowski
97. Pete Beathard
96. Steve Deberg
95. Bernie Masterson
94. Greg Landry
93. Jim Zorn
92. Rudy Bukich
91. Pad Haden

Greg Cook and Bobby Douglas are the biggest WTF inclusions, obvious filler to get to 100. Pete Beathard is another one, but at least played for 10 years as a backup and led the Oilers to 1967 AFL title game after mid-season trade. Considering how badly they got beat in that title game only holds so much weight. So he kind of falls into both categories for longevity/one hit wonder.

Edit: Bernie Masterson was really the first great Bears quarterback it seems. His first year was 1934 right as the forward pass was starting to really take off, by 1935 he was a top 5 passer in the league. Finished 4th in 1935, finished 5th in 1937(led the NFL with 9 TD passes), finished 4th in 1938(only 20 yards shy of league leader), finished 6th in 1939 almost had over 1,000 yards. So he was definitely one of the OG quarterbacks in NFL history, the first great Bears quarterback, just never really was the best of that era, got outgunned by Baugh in that 1937 NFL Championship shootout, and maybe got forgotten about by what Sid Luckman was able to come in and do after him. But still a top 5 passer in the formative years of that element of the game is worthy, and more than a few of these other names can say they ever ranked in the top 5 ever so I'd move him up a spot or two on my own list. 

Would have to work Haden up to the top so far based on that one hit wonder season, 12-4, 6 game winning drives, led his team to a NFCCG, had a few good partial seasons surrounding that one hit wonder year, though Bukich put up the better numbers and again in a harder era to play the position. 

Nobi getting down to business. You love to see it. You got me on Beathard & Masterson. Hadn't looked them up yet.

Greg Cook has been romanticized as one of those "what might have been?" guys and I buy into the hype at least a little bit with the caveat that I do have a soft spot for those types. Bill Walsh, the guy who coached Hall of Famers Montana & Young, said “Greg Cook was, I believe, the greatest talent to play the position. He could play today or any time in the history of the NFL. While he played he was the best there was.” The legendary Paul Brown was high on him as well.

He led the league in QB Rating as a rookie, setting a record that stood for 14 years until Marino broke it in '83. To this day he still has the 14th highest rookie passer rating of all time. Until 2011 he ranked 3rd on that list (also behind Big Ben) after a whopping 42 years. So I'm fine with him getting a low spot on the list. His lone full time season, a rookie campaign mind you, was better than the best from many quarterbacks on that list.

Watched a video on him last week and it really is a tragic story. He didn't really know what to do after football. Dabbled in art but had more unfinished works than finished ones. Ended up poor and living above a pigment shop with a family of raccoons for roommates.

I too was thinking DeBerg would shoot up if the book came out a few years later. He was just about to have some good years with KC. One of those years saw him throw for 23 touchdowns and only 4 interceptions. Didn't know he came back to be the Falcons backup during their Super Bowl season. That's an interesting little tidbit. He holds the distinction of being replaced by Montana, Elway, and Montana again. Ouch. Plus Vinny who came into the league with megahype. Trust me. I was there.

Cook's 88.3 rating is a bit misleading since he only threw 197 passes that year. I'd bump him and/or Bobby Douglas off the list for Marlin Briscoe, the first black starting QB, he only started his rookie year in 1968 for Denver, threw for nearly just as many TDs and passing yards in only 5 starts(had 224 attempts, 14 touchdowns, over 1,500 passing yards), while also putting together a pretty spectacular highlight reel of scrambling runs. His highlights from that year were left on the cutting room floor and never seen until one of the Lost Treasures episodes that NFL Films did on the AFL back in the 2000's(The Broncos didn't use his highlights in their highlight film because they traded him to the Bills after that season). The Bills immediately moved him from QB to receiver and I don't think he ever played QB again. Who knows what type of career Briscoe could have had if not for the idea back then that blacks weren't smart enough to play the position, so he fits a few criteria here for this countdown, a monumental first, a what could have been like Cook, and a nice one hit wonder season where he was like a proto-version of what QB's would look like 60 years into the future of the sport. 

Deberg deserves props for playing through that gruesome pinky injury in 1990, that was one of the ultimate tough guy NFL moments that was like some frankenstein looking shit they had going on there with that finger. Couldn't imagine taking snaps and having guys going after it in those games like they were.

Interesting. I never heard of Marlin Briscoe before yesterday. Always thought #81 James Harris was the first black quarterback of the modern era. Know I read that somewhere. Might even have been in 100 Greatest.

OK, now I see where my confusion stems from. Harris was the first in the NFL while Briscoe was AFL.

Looked at the stats and I'm taking Cook over Briscoe without hesitation. Cook led the AFL with an 88.3 passer rating. Briscoe finished middle of the pack one year earlier in the same AFL at 62.9- 25.4 points lower than Cook. That's a huge gap. For comparison sake Mahomes finished 25.0 points above Carson Wentz last year. Cook completed a considerably higher percentage of passes, threw for more touchdowns, fewer interceptions, slightly higher yards per completion, much higher yards per attempt, and 265 more yards in 27 fewer pass attempts. It's not even close in my book. So let's look deeper to see if Briscoe tops Cook in any category during their lone season as full time QB. Record-wise it's a wash with Cook at 4-6-1 and Briscoe at 2-3 in starts. Aha! Briscoe does top Cook in rushing yards with 308 to 148.

If I had to come up with my own list using the 1988 cutoff date* I'm sure I'd keep Cook on there. Couldn't have him higher than the 90s though because it WAS only one season. Feel like Douglass & Briscoe might be my working 99 & 100 based on being the answer to trivia questions.

*I'm just crazy enough to do this. But I'd have to do it right. So that would mean lots of research....research I really don't feel like taking the time to do.
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Another interesting DeBerg injury story I read about in yet another childhood book is the time he lost his voice due to laryngitis so the 49ers built a voice box for him to shout the plays. This book, which was geared towards children and somewhat comedic in tone, worded it something like "There are many qualities that go into being a successful NFL quarterback. It takes leadership ability, a strong arm, pocket awareness, and a big mouth." Anyway, here is a short video covering the DeBerg voice box incident...



this is even better than I thought. Reading about it 35 years ago is one thing. Actually seeing it is something else. What happened when he got tackled?

Aug 14, 2023 23:41:24 GMT Neo Zeed said:

And whoah Jim Mcmahon way high, almost 20 spots over Elway

I do feel like the list is weighing heavily on the '85 Bears Super Bowl for McMahon, though the defense is what won that. While not the most talented, McMahon was a tough S.O.B. The story of him (and others) from the 1984 Raiders/Bears game show how crazy violent that game got.

One thing about Briscoe his 14 touchdown passes stood as a Broncos team record for a rookie quarterback for a long time, is it still a record? Edit: Yes it is, that's impressive. 

That's a fair case for Cook over Briscoe, hard to argue that. You got me looking at Cook's game log for that 1 season now and he definitely had some skill, he got the Bengals off to a 3-0 start as a rookie, his second game had a 127.8 rating in a 327 yard performance with 3 touchdown passes. I believe he got hurt in that 3rd win over KC then the Bengals lost 4 games in a row until he came back with another great performance against a bad ass Raiders defense in a 31-17 win. Then threw for 289 and 4 touchdowns in a tie with the Oilers, at that point he was 4-1-1 as a starter.

After that he lost all the rest of his 5 starts and really struggled, I'm assuming playing through injuries. I will yield this argument with Baker for Cook he did have a slightly better one hit wonder season than Briscoe but just slightly. I would put Briscoe over Bobby Douglas since Douglas' passing stats for that 900 yard rushing season just aren't there, putting him in on a rushing yards record vs Briscoe dropping 14 touchdown passes a record that still stands for the Broncos franchise for rookies.

Baker do you have the ability to move all this to it's own thread? I want to go through this whole list and redo my own version, we can call it NFL's Top 100 Quarterbacks Book(1920-1987).

The Cook vs Briscoe comparison is so interesting, two vastly different skill levels and talents, both just had that 1 season, both showed astronomical potential, both played in the same AFL in back-to-back seasons against identical teams/players on those opposing defenses. Cook had 4-5 really good games at the start of the season where he did look like he very easily could have been an elite NFL quarterback, while looking at what Briscoe could do he was like the prototype of Doug Flutie type guys, 5'9" and black in pro football in 1968 playing quarterback, essentially a preview of guys like Cunningham, Cordell Stewart, Mike Vick, Lamar Jackson a half century earlier in the height of the Civil Rights movement. 

Briscoe's footage and considering how so many other teams around the NFL struggled at that position he seems like he could have been better than a lot of guys had he got that opportunity with the right coach/team, Lou Saban in Buffalo wasn't that guy. Imagine him going to another team as a QB in 1969, what about somewhere like Minnesota where he would have made a fine replacement for Joe Kapp on that 1970 run, he would have served just fine in that placeholder role until Fran arrived. Surely he would have done better than Gary Cuozzo. 

Briscoe's playing time came in the end of the season in the Broncos last 4 games, he came in and threw passes in just about every game but they went with him as the full time starter in the final 4 games after they were already out of it. In those 4 he throws for 10 touchdowns vs 8 ints and nearly 1,000 yards also over 100 rushing yards on like 12 attempts.