The lost Marlin Briscoe highlight footage timestamped here, that's a great episode.

#90 Richard Todd, the Jets hoped he would be the successor to Joe Namath and got to say he's way too high here, maybe shouldn't even be in the countdown at all. It's hard to measure now, how do you weigh and compare a career that was bad/long with one that was just a great 1/2 year wonder? Todd was pretty terrible his first 5 years, then had his 1 hit wonder year in 1981, which wasn't really even all that great. He threw 4 interceptions in the Jets playoff loss to Buffalo. Then he led the Jets back to the AFC Championship in the 1982 strike season where he threw another 4 interception performance against Miami. After that he went back to being bad until retiring after the 1985 season. He had one season with 30 interceptions and another with 22, another later in his career with 26.

#89. Jay Shraoeder, I could never spell this dudes name right and stopped trying. At the time this book came out Jay had only 3 years in the NFL, he only played 5 games in 1985 before taking over full time in 1986 with that 4,000 yard pro bowl season, leading the Skins to 12-4 season the year they lost 3 times to the Super Bowl Giants(including the NFC Championship?). So he threw for 4,100 yards with The Posse and the GOAT O-Line but threw just as many picks 22 as tds 22. But trip to the NFCCG is notable and that's a lot of yards for that division in 1986 plus 4 fourth quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives is impressive. Didn't do much on that 87 season though went 8-2 as the starter, stats were pretty lackluster. He had a pretty ok one hit wonder season but seems like pretty unlikeable dude and nice dickhead heel in the Doug Williams Super Bowl XXII story.

#88. Tommy Kramer, pretty average looking stats but managed to hang around with the Vikings for 100 starts from 1977 to 1987, his one hit wonder season would be 1986 he led the NFL in passer rating and made the pro bowl but only went 7-6 as a starter. Had 4 seasons with over 20 interceptions including a league leading 26 in 1985.

#87. Steve Bartkowski seemed low when first seeing the list and looking at his stats now he for sure was. Put up some bad numbers his first 5 years from 1975-79, but he was clutch af for a few years there, had 5 game winning drives in 1978, led the league with 5 fourth quarter comebacks in 1979, then led the league with 4 game winning drives in 1980. So this lifts him a little bit up out of the one hit wonder category for me. His 1980 season was the big one with the 31 touchdown passes, leading the Falcons to a 12-4 record which was best in the NFL if not mistaken. They ended up going one and done in the playoff loss to Dallas in dramatic fashion in a great game. The Falcons made a coaching change that wasn't good and were never the same, struggled to 7-9 finish the next year even though Bartkowski had another 30 td pass season. Look at Bartkowski's 1983 season though, pretty overlooked there with a league high 97.6 rating with 22 touchdowns and only 5 interceptions. Didn't play too well for 3 more partial seasons before retiring after 1986. He may be the best quarterback on the list yet.

#86. Bill Kenney, Chiefs quarterback from 1980 to 1988 so played one more season after this countdown came out, a year where he went 0-5 and threw for 0 touchdowns and 5 interceptions. At the time this book came out Kenney was owner of what had to be one of the highest single season passing yard marks in league history with 4,348 yards in 1983 a year where he threw the ball over 600 times. KC only went 6-10 that year he started all 16 games he threw for 24 touchdowns and 18 interceptions. His stats the last few years of his career where not bad I'm assuming he was mostly backup for Todd Blackledge that they hoped would be the franchise QB in the 83 draft. Kenney did finish with a nice TD vs INT ratio with 105 vs 81 in 72 starts. Not bad but not great, he was a one hit wonder/perennial backup.

New Rankings up to 1987, going to put asterisk next to guys that played after this book came out.

Honorable Mentions
Bobby Douglas

100. Marlin Briscoe
99. Greg Cook
98. Richard Todd
97. Zeke Bratkowski
96. Pete Beathard
95. Jay Schroaedor*
94. Steve Deberg*
93. Bernie Masterson
92. Greg Landry
91. Tommy Kramer
90. Bill Kenney*
89. Jim Zorn
88. Rudy Bukich
87. Pad Haden
86. Steve Bartkowski

#85. Tom Flores, another historic first in I believe being the first hispanic starting quarterback. I love the players that only played a full career all in the AFL, and just now learning that Tom Flores played his 10 year career all perfectly exclusively in the AFL, playing in every season the league existed from 1960 to 1969. Love that. He's got to be one of the only guys that did that? Whoops, take that back Flores actually didn't play in 1962. Other than that though he was all AFL. But thing is nothing here on his stats really stand out at all. Closest thing he had to a "Hit" season is his 1966 seasons where he went 7-2-1, 24 touchdowns, 14 picks, just over 2,600 yards 49% completion percentage. I'm just not seeing anything on Flores stat line to warrant this high of a ranking.

#84. Boomer Esiason, considering this book ends with 1987 I got to believe this was a bit high for Boomer. If this came out before his 1988 MVP season then they are basing this ranking off of a 2 pretty good years he had in 1985-1986, he didn't do much his rookie year and actually really struggled in 1987. Based on our cutoff point of 1987 season here Boomer is too high, and honestly when considering an updated version I'm not sure his 1988 MVP season gets him much higher considering the more struggles he had after that. He's an interesting case to think about now if you were to make a top 100 today. He definitely deserves to be on this list for 1987 falling into the "This is the future of the NFL" category. Boomer was the new generation.

#83. Frank Filchock, Redskins quarterback that threw 5 interceptions in their 73-0 loss to the Bears in the 1940 NFL Championship. That right there should tell you he's too high, if he should even be on this list at all. Interestingly enough he would throw 6 interceptions against the Bears playing for the Giants in the 1946 NFL Championship, so 11 interceptions in 2 major NFL Championship Game losses against the same team. Still a 2 time All Star led the NFL in touchdown passes 2 times in 39 and 44.

#82. Vince Ferragamo, Rams QB that took over for injured Pat Haden went 4-1 in last five games of 1979 season, beat the Cowboys on a 50 yard touchdown bomb in the playoffs, then was game manager in 9-0 win over the Buccs in NFCCG, had some great moments in Super Bowl XIV loss to the Steelers. Had a pretty great season with 30 touchdown passes in 11-4 run in 1980 but threw 3 picks in playoff loss one and done. Missed full 1981 season I believe because of contract hold out then returned in strike shortened season in 1982, just never amounted to much like I'm sure people thought he would after Super Bowl XIV. Even at his best seemed like he was more or less along for the ride for that Super Bowl run(though he had a few big moments).

#81. James Harris seems pretty high, if he's only here for being the first black starter he wasn't even the first. Didn't know he actually began his career in Buffalo in the AFL in 1969 the same team that picked up Marlin Briscoe and moved him to receiver. His success was the 7-2 run in 1974 and the 11-2 run in 1975 with a loaded Rams team, his stats just don't really stand out though other than the 3 game winning drives in 1975.

New Rankings up to 1987, going to put asterisk next to guys that played after this book came out.

Honorable Mentions
Bobby Douglas

100. Marlin Briscoe
99. Greg Cook
98. Tom Flores
97. Richard Todd
96. Zeke Bratkowski
95. Pete Beathard
94. Jay Schroaedor*
93. Steve Deberg*
92. James Harris
91. Bernie Masterson
90. Frank Filchock
89. Greg Landry
88. Boomer Esiason*
87. Tommy Kramer
86. Bill Kenney*
85. Vince Ferragamo
84. Jim Zorn
83. Rudy Bukich
82. Pad Haden
81. Steve Bartkowski

#80 Gary Danielson is one that sticks out as way too high. He was the Lions backup quarterback from 1976 to 1988, so he played one more season riding the bench after the book came out. His only season of note was the 9-7 season he put in for the Lions in 1980 the year Billy Simms was kicking ass, his passing numbers are very pedestrian. He didn't play at all during the 1983 season they won their division and made the playoffs, he was backup for Eric Hipple(a name that maybe should have made this countdown?), he threw 0 touchdowns and 5 interceptions in the Lions playoff loss to the 49ers though they still almost won it with good defense and Billy Simms(they lost on a missed field goal in the end of the game). There was really no reason for this guy to be on this countdown, especially not at #80.

#79. Warren Moon, one has to wonder if we count Otto Graham's AAFC titles and passing stats can we count Moon's CFL 4 championships and all those extra yards? It's about the same no? Got to say Moon is way too high here for this being based on the 1987 breakoff point, he had only been in the NFL 4 seasons and was actually pretty bad, went 19-38 as a starter with 61 touchdowns and 77 interceptions. averaged about 216 yards a game. He had his best year yet in 1987 and really started to look like he was a top level QB through the course of that season but up to this point I don't know that he should be over some of these other guys.

#78. Dan Pastorini seems maybe a little high too. He really had a reputation even when I was a kid hearing about him being one of the toughest guys to play QB, he would take savage beatings and play with bad injuries. I think that is his claim to fame. His stats are not good. He did have major guts too, he led the NFL in 4th quarter comebacks/game winning drives in 1978 with 6 then had 4 in 1979, a fan favorite but too high.

#77. Parker Hall, another very questionable old schooler only played 4 NFL seasons in the 40's, there has to be a backstory to him beyond the stat line like Pastorini? His rookie season was 1939 with the Cleveland Rams and was his best year, All Star/All Pro, led the NFL in completions/attempts/percentage his numbers dropped off after that including 19 interceptions in 1941 and 42 his last seasons.

#76. Harry Newman, another old schooler only played from 1933 to 1935 with the Giants. Led the NFL in touchdown passes and yards in 1933, threw 1 touchdown pass and like 12 interceptions the next year and was out of the NFL following 1935. I'm assuming had to be one of the first real innovators of throwing the football for him to have numbers like that as early as 1933, they didn't start keeping stats at all until around that time.

New Rankings up to 1987, going to put asterisk next to guys that played after this book came out.

Honorable Mentions
Gary Danielson

100. Bobby Douglas
99. Parker Hall
98. Harry Newman
97. Marlin Briscoe
96. Greg Cook
95. Tom Flores
94. Richard Todd
93. Zeke Bratkowski
92. Warren Moon*
91. Pete Beathard
90. Jay Schroaedor*
89. Steve Deberg*
88. James Harris
87. Bernie Masterson
86. Frank Filchock
85. Greg Landry
83. Boomer Esiason*
84. Dan Pastorini
82. Tommy Kramer
81. Bill Kenney*
80. Jim Zorn
79. Rudy Bukich
78. Pad Haden
77. Vince Ferragamo
76. Steve Bartkowski

Aug 20, 2023 17:38:36 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Baker do you have the ability to move all this to it's own thread? I want to go through this whole list and redo my own version, we can call it NFL's Top 100 Quarterbacks Book(1920-1987).

I do not. Help us, UT. You're our only hope.

Aug 21, 2023 0:34:42 GMT Baker said:

Aug 20, 2023 17:38:36 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Baker do you have the ability to move all this to it's own thread? I want to go through this whole list and redo my own version, we can call it NFL's Top 100 Quarterbacks Book(1920-1987).

I do not. Help us, UT. You're our only hope.

I got you. Though you owe me. That was not a blast to do on my phone!

Oof. Thanks UT. I feel your pain. I don't know how you guys do phone posting any longer than 2 or 3 sentences.

I see Neo Zeed has been busy today. Time to catch up...

Yeah, Gary Danielson was a weird pick even to kiddie me in 1988. Hate to say it but I'd still take him over some of the other names on this list though. His 3 years as a full time starter were...decent. I am confident in declaring him better than Eric Hipple and...

Harry Newman, Dutch Clark, Ace Parker Hall. I really don't know what to do with ye olde school types. The position and even the game itself was so much different back then. Their stats are lousy even by 40s and 50s standards. Reading their entries now...

Parker Hall was Rookie of the Year and league MVP during his rookie season when he became the third player to top 1000 yards passing. He also led the league in punting that year. "Hall never again equalled his rookie performance"

"Ace Parker could run, throw and kick, what the oldtimers call a legitimate triple threat. But his ability as a kick returner took Parker to a level beyond that, to the realm of the quadruple threat." Then World War II happened.

Harry Newman turned the Giants around from 4-6-2 to 11-3. He also led the league in passing and took the Giants to the NFL Championship where they came up just short against the Bears thanks to a tackle by "the legendary Red Grange." Entry ends with "Harry Newman's rookie year, a dream season, came close to having a championship ending." That's it. Nothing beyond his rookie season that ended with a championship game defeat. 

Hadn't realized/forgot Moon struggled during his first few years. He did turn it around in '87 though and would only get better from there. In terms of alt football leagues I'd rank them AFL > AAFC > CFL since the NFL absorbed the first, cherry picked from the second, and largely ignored the third.

How about college football? 100 Greatest Basketball Players paid homage to the college game by including Danny Manning before he ever played an NBA game. They also had two women at 99 & 100 and I'm pretty sure included a few more college stars who never went pro. Come to think of it I'm fairly certain 100 Greatest Running Backs also included a few college only players.

Boomer I still think could be higher. He did regress in 87, but his 85 & 86 seasons were really, really good.

Kramer & Kenney I always lumped in as 'good enough'/midcard types as a kid. Kenney turned out to be better than the one year wonder I remembered while I was spot on in regards to Kramer. Funny how Kenney had his monster season the year they drafted bust Blackledge. Kenney/Blackledge might have been the first QB controversy of my football fandom. Meanwhile, the very year this book came out the Vikings had their own QB controversy in Kramer vs. fellow midcarder Wade Wilson. Double W won the job in what turned out to be the closest thing he'd have to a career year.

Oof. You weren't kidding about Pastorini's mediocrity. Too high. Boomer already smokes him and Moon's '87 was better than any season Danny P had. Heck, our whipping boy Gary Danielson had 2 or 3 years better than Pastorini's best! 

Richard Todd is another mediocre entry with two good seasons in 81 & 82 sandwiched between seven lousy ones. I'd still take him over Pastorini though. 

We're in agreement on Bartkowski. Thought he seemed too low the day I posted the list. Now I know it to be true. He took a while to get going, but had two great years and another good one in which he threw for a then rare 30 touchdowns for the second season in a row.

James Harris had a decent little stretch in the mid 70s. No big numbers, but he won ballgames, so I can see why he made the lower end of the list. Strikes me as a 70s Jay Fielder.

Fun Fact: The only QB Rating leaders not to crack the Top 100 were Frankie Albert (1948- AAFC so it doesn't really count) and 1954 leader Adrian Burk. Why did author Roland Lazenby hate Adrian Burk?!?

I feel like Jay Schroeder was the first QB I ever heard referred to as "a gunslinger." Not in the book though. They use the term for Jim Kelly instead iirc. Anyway, Jay had HYPE in '86. First year I watched football and the only thing more hyped than the young Redskins signal caller were the 10-1 NY Jets. I can see him getting a low Top 100 spot off that one 4000 yard season alone. He'd have one more good season, actually his best, a few years later with the Tecmo Super Bowl Raiders after falling out of favor in Washington. I like how he led the league in y/c three times. Shows he was a true gunslinger rather than some check down wuss. Throw them bombs, baby!

Tom Flores is rated about right imo. He had the one big year Nobi mentioned and another earlier 20 TD season. What's up with the low completion % though?

I remember Vince Ferragamo played in the CFL for the 1981 season.

His team, the Montreal Alouettes, which also included NFL stars Billy "White Shoes" Johnson and James Scott, only went 3-13 that year. But somehow though, it was strong enough to earn the final playoff spot in the division.

And to add insult to injury, my Saskatchewan Roughriders, who went 9-7, which would've been a good enough record to finish 2nd in the East (2nd place Ottawa got in with just a 5-11 record), finished 4th in the West division, and missed the playoffs.

Forgot to mention Ferragamo. He had a big 1980 with 30 TD passes. Then went to the CFL in '81. What's the story there? Never mind. Reading up on it now...

Montreal offered him major money. Yikes. He sucked north of the border. Got benched after throwing only 7 touchdown passes and a whopping 25 interceptions. Had two okayish years with the Rams after returning.

Not gonna lie. Kiddie me lumped all those old Rams quarterbacks together- Haden, Harris, Ferragamo, even Gabriel.

Rams...CFL...Uh oh. Now I got Dieter Brock on the brain. Better go now before I get caught up in Dieter Brock posting.

Inadvertently just discovered the book's release date was June 13, 1988. I guessed August. Close enough.

Aug 21, 2023 1:37:25 GMT CM Punk'd said:

I remember Vince Ferragamo played in the CFL for the 1981 season.

His team, the Montreal Alouettes, which also included NFL stars Billy "White Shoes" Johnson and James Scott, only went 3-13 that year. But somehow though, it was strong enough to earn the final playoff spot in the division.

And to add insult to injury, my Saskatchewan Roughriders, who went 9-7, which would've been a good enough record to finish 2nd in the East (2nd place Ottawa got in with just a 5-11 record), finished 4th in the West division, and missed the playoffs.

Whoah a 3-13 team in the playoffs? I can not acknowledge this league. I don't think we're too far off from seeing something like that in the NFL, definitely possible now, with the 4 team divisions and the added teams in the bracket/extra games could definitely see one of those divisions being that bad one of these years.  

UT you're the man, well done. 

I noticed a pattern here. Clearly you could cut off about 30 names off this countdown but I'm a big fan of rounding out a nice proper 100, it's just symmetrical and nice, I like the number. Even though I'm ripping these rankings I still love this whole book, I just noticed that it's rankings are more for aesthetics and the flow of the book itself, it's an even mix of passers from all decades going back to the 30's(they didn't keep passing stats until 1932).

Pulling out my record and fact book that came out prior to the 1989 season for context. Up to and including 1987 there had only been 13 4,000+ passing yard seasons. Marino had 3, Fouts had 3, Sipe, Kenney, Lynn Dickey, Simms, Lomax, and Schroeder were 1 hit wonders, Namath was the first to do it.

Aug 21, 2023 13:56:05 GMT Neo Zeed said:

Aug 21, 2023 1:37:25 GMT CM Punk'd said:

I remember Vince Ferragamo played in the CFL for the 1981 season.

His team, the Montreal Alouettes, which also included NFL stars Billy "White Shoes" Johnson and James Scott, only went 3-13 that year. But somehow though, it was strong enough to earn the final playoff spot in the division.

And to add insult to injury, my Saskatchewan Roughriders, who went 9-7, which would've been a good enough record to finish 2nd in the East (2nd place Ottawa got in with just a 5-11 record), finished 4th in the West division, and missed the playoffs.

Whoah a 3-13 team in the playoffs? I can not acknowledge this league. I don't think we're too far off from seeing something like that in the NFL, definitely possible now, with the 4 team divisions and the added teams in the bracket/extra games could definitely see one of those divisions being that bad one of these years.  

UT you're the man, well done. 

Don't worry about that.  There's a system that keeps it from ever happening again.  Before the decade ended, the CFL instituted a crossover rule, where if a 4th place team in one division (let's use the West as an example) has a better record than the 3rd place team in the other division (the East), the 4th place team takes the place of the 3rd place team, and crosses over into the East division for the playoffs.

Thinking about the older school guys on the countdown, Harry Newman and Parker Hall are definitely one hit wonders. I guess they got just as much of a right to be there as any other one hit wonders, their stats are so old school you really can't compare players and teams from that era vs latter on in history. But in the context of a one hit wonder season, within that era, Harry Newman as a rookie taking the Giants to the NFL title game threw for 11 touchdowns and over 900 passing yards those were very high numbers for that era. It took 7 years until somebody threw for more than 11 touchdowns and nobody even came close to 900 passing yards the next 2 seasons in the NFL. Parker Hall as a rookie with the Rams in 1939 throwing the ball over 200 times was unheard of at that time.

But looking at Parker Hall's stats led me to discover a guy from that same year that was actually better than him and probably should get this spot on this top 100 in his place:

Davey O'Brien, was Sammy Baugh's backup at TCU won the Heisman Trophy in 1938 and was picked 4th in the draft by the Eagles in 1939. He was the first Heisman Trophy winner to play in the NFL ever. When you look at the record and fact books they show Parker Hall as the passing leader for 1939 but they established this using the passer rating system that didn't even exist back then. If you look at the league stats Davey O'Brien actually threw for more passing yards that year, 1,324 which was a new NFL record at that point. The next season in 1940 he threw the ball an unheard for the time 277 times for 1,290 yards, which would have been one of the best single seasons passing yardage performances up to that point in NFL history.

He abruptly retired after his second season in 1940 to take a job working for the FBI. He retired from the FBI to get into the oil business where he was a close advisor to Lamar Hunt when they started the AFL in 1959-60, he ended up dying of cancer in 1977.

Very interesting, a 2-hit wonder that should have made this countdown. At one time held the record for most passing yards(a record broken the very next year by his old team mate Sammy Baugh) then threw the ball more than anybody in NFL history the next season before walking away from the sport. His little 2 year window seems to have been totally forgotten. Think about what kind of rivalry the Redskins/Eagles could have had with these 2 gunning it out those years had he kept playing. Definitely a guy that had the potential to be one of the early all time greats. 

#75. Eddie Lebaron- This is a name I'm pretty familiar with as a major figure in the beginning of the Cowboys/Redskins rivalry. He was the Redskins quarterback through most of the 50's and a 3 time All Star but looking at his stat sheet I'm not seeing why. He ends up involved in the controversy involved with the Redskins fight song and some type of trade with Dallas I forget the details of, he's the first Cowboys quarterback on the expansion 1960 team. He has a nice season in 1962 in his late age but only 6 games could only qualify for half of a one hit wonder season, or a .5 hit wonder season if you will.

#74. Bernie Kosar- Another young new generation guy for the time the book came out, only been in the league for 3 seasons but had great seasons in 86 and 87 in back to back runs to the AFCCG. So both Ohio young guns Boomer and Bernie, I would say Boomer's 2 years of greatness were better.

#74. Tommy O'Connell- A head scratcher here, only played 14 total games for the Browns from 1953 to 1957, I guess they are counting his 1957 season as a one hit wonder he went 7-1-1 as a starter nothing special about his numbers though, he got a few UPI votes for MVP(finished 4th in their voting) so he must have had some big moments that the stats don't tell. He threw 2 interceptions in the 57 NFL Championship Game loss to Detroit. Came out of retirement to play 2 years in the AFL 1960-61 with the Bills.

#73. Jim Kelly- another young gun a bit too high since he only had 2 NFL seasons at this point. Played well his first year but stats take a drop for 87 because of the 3 games missed due to strike.

#72. Ken O'Brien- interesting just how many young quarterbacks there were in the league going into 1988 that seemed to have their whole future ahead of them. O'Brien was one of those guys, only 4 seasons in the NFL at the time of the list with the Jets. He did have a winning record and a positive TD vs INT ratio, made the Pro Bowl in 84 and received some OPOY votes in 85. Highest passer rating in the league in 85 with over 3,800 yards despite being sacked David Carr levels at 62 times. Interesting that he kind of stumbled over the next 3 years after this book came out, though he did have 5 game winning drives to get the 8-8 Jets into the playoffs(and they were kinda screwed in that Wild Card loss to Houston). He had an alright career for a Jets QB, always got a kick out of the stories of how he would turn it on against Marino's Dolphins and turned into a HOF level QB against them, as if Marino fucked his girlfriend in college or something.

New Rankings updated 1920 to 1987:

Honorable Mentions:

Tommy O'Connell
Bobby Douglas

100. Parker Hall
99. Davey O'Brien
98. Harry Newman
97. Gary Danielson
96. Marlin Briscoe
95. Greg Cook
94. Greg Landry
93. Zeke Bratkowski
92. Bernie Masterson
91. Frank Filchock
90. Tom Flores
89. Eddie Lebaron
88. Richard Todd
87. Warren Moon*
86. Jim Kelly*
85. Pete Beathard
84. Jay Schroaedor*
83. Steve Deberg*
82. James Harris
81. Pad Haden
80. Vince Ferragamo
79. Dan Pastorini
78. Tommy Kramer
77. Jim Zorn
76. Rudy Bukich
75. Bernie Kosar*
74. Boomer Esiason*
73. Bill Kenney*
72. Ken O'Brien*
71. Steve Bartkowski

Nice Davey O'Brien deep cut. I only knew of him through the award that bears his name. Didn't know he was actually a decent NFL quarterback in the early days.

Eddie LeBaron was mediocre until his penultimate season. I'd bump him down a bunch of spots.

Kosar was coming off a good '86 and a very good '87 both ending in heartbreaking AFC Championship Game defeats to my beloved Broncos. Stock in Bernie would have been high in '88. Crazy to think he had only played three years by that point. Kosar always seemed old to me. His slow-footed, sidearming playing style just screamed "grizzled veteran" to kiddie me.

Tommy O'Connell I agree on being a headscratcher. Bump him down to the 90s. I've bumped so many people down to the 90s that Greg Cook has to be like #78 by now.

Jim Kelly is another guy I thought had a few more years under his belt by the time of publication. Where do we rank the USFL in comparison to AFL, AAFC, CFL? Anyway, Kelly had two good years with more on the way. He's rated about right for this stage in his career. Think Nobi has him too low.

Ken O'Brien might be the best young gun to date at the time of publication. He had a great '85 and a good '86 & '87. Looked like a future star at this stage of his career. Sadly (if you're a Jets fan) he had already peaked. Got a kick out of Nobi bringing up his success against Miami.

Just reading the list, over/under 25 of these QB’s making a list 35 years later. I’d guess under. League has changed so much.

Marino over Montana in 88 feels like a real hot take. I suppose he had the injury stuff and the Bill Walsh always trying to replace him chipping away at his legacy, but still.

Aug 22, 2023 12:02:03 GMT mikec said:

Just reading the list, over/under 25 of these QB’s making a list 35 years later. I’d guess under. League has changed so much.

Marino over Montana in 88 feels like a real hot take. I suppose he had the injury stuff and the Bill Walsh always trying to replace him chipping away at his legacy, but still.

It is so interesting looking back now that they had no idea how things would play out. Also without internet back then think of how much easier it has been for me to rate and compare these guys compared to all of the work it must have taken this author(and how much easier it would have been to overlook something).(nothing related to your post just a random thought while typing lol)

At the time of the book it's also worth noting that Montana was coming off of that terrible performance in the 87 playoff loss to Minnesota where he got benched. Meanwhile Marino was fresh off of rewriting all the single season records, there had only been 10 cases of a quarterback throwing for more than 4,000 yards in NFL history then he comes in and does it 3 times in his first 5 season, I never realized how great of a season Marino had in 1986 with 44 touchdowns and over 4,700 yards that would have shattered the records had he not went god mode in 84. 

I'm not sure where he stood when this book came out prior to the 88 season but I do know that following the 1988 season Montana was the highest rated quarterback up to that point in NFL history. 

Starting at the top I got to agree that up to this point Unitas was pretty clear cut #1 GOAT, so that's really impressive that he was the NFL's greatest quarterback for the entire first 68 years of history. I think Montana winning Super Bowl XXIII with that drive elevated him to #2 without a doubt, and then winning MVP and another Super Bowl in 1989 put him on the throne. It's interesting to me because I never knew a time in my life when people thought of anyone other than Montana as the GOAT(until Brady). 

Up until Johnny U came around in the 1950's would be it a safe bet that Sammy Baugh was the best quarterback the NFL had ever seen? Was the highest rated passer in the NFL 6 different seasons, led the NFL in touchdown passes twice, won 2 NFL titles, was one of the pioneers that pushed the forward pass to new heights in the 30's while also evolving with the NFL to keep putting up big numbers deep into the 40's(even broke/set new records in his old age), was still starting/playing at a high level in the early 50's in a completely different era where it was almost a totally different sport from when he was a rookie in 1937. Is there anyone else that could claim his spot at the NFL's GOAT quarterback of the first 30 years? Got to believe he's a bit low here on this countdown. For this time period got to believe he should have been at least top 5. 

Also I think I counted 18 active QB's in the countdown as of publishing in Summer '88, some of those were Danny White and Bill Kenney were backups. Interesting that this countdown puts it into perspective that that new generation of QB's here on the list were really like the first generation of true modern day NFL quarterbacks. This countdown being put out when it was really puts it into perspective the evolution of that position, fascinating stuff. 

For #2 at this time in history I want to say Staubach? Or Bradshaw? Surely not Otto Graham? Or is it already Montana?

Aug 22, 2023 12:02:03 GMT mikec said:

Just reading the list, over/under 25 of these QB’s making a list 35 years later. I’d guess under. League has changed so much.

Marino over Montana in 88 feels like a real hot take. I suppose he had the injury stuff and the Bill Walsh always trying to replace him chipping away at his legacy, but still.

Actually thinking about it I would take the over on 25. I was curious about this book because I actually tried to put my own list together and stalled out at about 60. Think about it though, have there really been 75 great quarterbacks come out of that period from 1988 to 2023? I actually don't think so. It's still a stretch to get a 100 list today, would have to include a few one hit wonders and a few names that you just wouldn't associate with the upper 50-60 on the list. 

Aug 22, 2023 12:02:03 GMT mikec said:

Just reading the list, over/under 25 of these QB’s making a list 35 years later. I’d guess under. League has changed so much.

I'll take the over at 35-40. Let's find out...

Here's one from September 2019 ftw.usatoday.com/2019/09/nfl-100-best-quarterbacks with 53 from the book.

Here's one based solely on math that was updated following the 2022 season sportsmathnetwork.com/qb-math/the-nfl-100-for-quarterbacks/
This one includes no quarterbacks prior to 1950 due to lack of full game logs yet still listed 49 quarterbacks from the book. Interestingly it also included 3 players who retired long before publication of the book who did not make the cut in Bobby Thomason, Bob Berry, and Bill Nelsen. Might want to look into these guys Neo Zeed

*Other lists I found were prior to 2019 (too old) or voted on by fans (too goofy). The one fan voted list I looked at had 19 of the first 33 from the book before I tapped out at the goofiness of it all so do what you will with that info.

Aug 22, 2023 23:52:25 GMT Baker said:

Interestingly it also included 3 players who retired long before publication of the book who did not make the cut in Bobby Thomason, Bob Berry, and Bill Nelsen. Might want to look into these guys Neo Zeed

Couldn't resist checking these guys out.

Yes to Nelsen. Had a solid run from 67-70 with his '68 & '69 seasons as a Brown being particular standouts. Finished 3rd in MVP voting in '68 and made the Pro Bowl in '69.

Berry could have been a low end guy as well. Had a great half season in '69 with 10 TD to 2 INT while leading the woeful Falcons to a 4-3 record in starts and making the Pro Bowl. Was decent by the standards of that era from 70-72 as well. I've seen worse.

Thomason led the league in completion % as a Packer in '51, TD passes as an Eagle in '53, INT % in '51-'52, and was a 3x Pro Bowler. But also had one of the worse seasons I've seen yet with 4 TD and 21 INT in 1953. To make matters worse, that was somehow one of his Pro Bowl seasons! 

Aug 22, 2023 23:52:25 GMT Baker said:

Aug 22, 2023 12:02:03 GMT mikec said:

Just reading the list, over/under 25 of these QB’s making a list 35 years later. I’d guess under. League has changed so much.

I'll take the over at 35-40. Let's find out...

Here's one from September 2019 ftw.usatoday.com/2019/09/nfl-100-best-quarterbacks with 53 from the book.

Here's one based solely on math that was updated following the 2022 season sportsmathnetwork.com/qb-math/the-nfl-100-for-quarterbacks/
This one includes no quarterbacks prior to 1950 due to lack of full game logs yet still listed 49 quarterbacks from the book. Interestingly it also included 3 players who retired long before publication of the book who did not make the cut in Bobby Thomason, Bob Berry, and Bill Nelsen. Might want to look into these guys Neo Zeed

*Other lists I found were prior to 2019 (too old) or voted on by fans (too goofy). The one fan voted list I looked at had 19 of the first 33 from the book before I tapped out at the goofiness of it all so do what you will with that info.

That math list is really bizarre. Any list that says Elvis Grbac is a top 100 QB of all time and that Trent Green is in the top 25 is a fun trip down painful memory lane for me.

I do think you’re both right that the number for the over under is closer to 35 though.

Aug 23, 2023 0:57:10 GMT mikec said:

That math list is really bizarre. Any list that says Elvis Grbac is a top 100 QB of all time and that Trent Green is in the top 25 is a fun trip down painful memory lane for me.

Agreed.

And this gives me a chance to share my Elvis Grbac story. Ravens signed him to a fat contract after a few decent years in KC, including a 4000 yard season. Turns out this was 2001- the year after Baltimore won the Super Bowl. So hype was through the roof here now that the Ravens finally had a solid quarterback to along with their all time great defense. Problem was Elvis just did not care anymore after landing that big money deal. A few years later I heard from people I trusted that Elvis would be at this one particular bar (Padonia Station) most every night, drinking and smoking away to his heart's content until closing time. 

I had to look at pro football reference to double-check that Elvis Grbac had a 4,000 yard season. That season is really buried in my trauma from the “let’s get Steve Young’s backup” version of the Chiefs. Love seeing the Tony Gonzalez stat line with 90+ receptions and 1300 yards. I do remember loving Kimble Anders and Tony Richardson that year.

Aug 23, 2023 1:28:57 GMT mikec said:

I had to look at pro football reference to double-check that Elvis Grbac had a 4,000 yard season. That season is really buried in my trauma from the “let’s get Steve Young’s backup” version of the Chiefs. 

Not a Steve Bono fan?

You guys had prime Priest Holmes though. Always liked him. He played well here, often in limited duty, so I wasn't surprised to see him break out in KC. Didn't think he'd be THAT good though. 

Aug 23, 2023 1:40:53 GMT Baker said:

Aug 23, 2023 1:28:57 GMT mikec said:

I had to look at pro football reference to double-check that Elvis Grbac had a 4,000 yard season. That season is really buried in my trauma from the “let’s get Steve Young’s backup” version of the Chiefs. 

Not a Steve Bono fan?

You guys had prime Priest Holmes though. Always liked him. He played well here, often in limited duty, so I wasn't surprised to see him break out in KC. Didn't think he'd be THAT good though. 

Having one of the best offensive lines in football really helped out. I think most RB’s could do well running behind hall of famers Will Smith and Willie Roaf.

And no, not a Steve Bono fan. Just a hallmark of Carl Peterson’s tenure of cautiously playing it safe to win just enough to not get fired. A real strategic mind at work with “Hey we’ve got a West Coast offense, let’s go get three straight 49er QB castoffs and see how it works out”

Man I'm just not sold on Otto Graham being this high. 13,499 yards, 88 touchdowns, 94 interceptions, won 3 NFL titles but also lost 3 his overall numbers in Championship Games were not great. Compared to Sammy Baugh 21,880 passing yards, played almost 100 more games in the NFL, 100 more touchdown passes, consistently led the league in several categories across career that touched 3 decades, 3 pretty different eras(including one where he had to also play defense and punt, which he did at an all pro level). Otto played in 6 NFL title games and won 3 titles Baugh played in 5 NFL title games and won 2 titles.