What is important to remember, the Hamas terrorist attacks where executed by Hamas and not the greater civilian population of Palestine.

Similarly, the actions of the Israeli military and those of the Israeli leadership are not the actions of greater Israeli population.

Speaking on the suffering of the Palestinian people isn't anti-semitic or pro-Hamas. Innocent people are dying as part of an indiscriminate bombing campaign designed to displace and annihilate a population that has lived under oppression for decades to make way for more living space for the Israeli people. Anyone with any sense of humanity would understand this. ( and in an ironic twist, seeing the similarities with Germany pre-WW1, attack first policy to curb a hypothetical invasion by their neighbours.. Israel had a similar policy way back when this all began )

We've condemned the actions of Russia for waging a war on the same basic principles - ownership and entitlement. Yet, the World applauds Israeli. The only difference is, a terrorist organisation shot first. Hence the justification for war.

Nov 6, 2023 0:44:12 GMT c said:

As for being anti-Israeli, I am anti-child murder. At least 4000 children dead so far, with some estimates closer to 7000. How anyone can be ok with child murder on this scale is beyond me.

You glossed right past the Israeli children murdered in your very first post. Maybe I’ve missed it throughout the ramblings, but I’ve yet to hear any sorrow (arguably, I’ve read justification) for the Israelis killed on Oct. 7.

I don’t think Israel’s response has been proportional. Not one bit. I also think Hamas is as much to blame for innocents being killed.

Nov 6, 2023 2:34:17 GMT NATH45 said:

What is important to remember, the Hamas terrorist attacks where executed by Hamas and not the greater civilian population of Palestine.

Similarly, the actions of the Israeli military and those of the Israeli leadership are not the actions of greater Israeli population.

Speaking on the suffering of the Palestinian people isn't anti-semitic or pro-Hamas. Innocent people are dying as part of an indiscriminate bombing campaign designed to displace and annihilate a population that has lived under oppression for decades to make way for more living space for the Israeli people. Anyone with any sense of humanity would understand this. ( and in an ironic twist, seeing the similarities with Germany pre-WW1, attack first policy to curb a hypothetical invasion by their neighbours.. Israel had a similar policy way back when this all began )

We've condemned the actions of Russia for waging a war on the same basic principles - ownership and entitlement. Yet, the World applauds Israeli. The only difference is, a terrorist organisation shot first. Hence the justification for war.

I’m evoking anti-semitism in this thread, just to be clear.

Nov 5, 2023 22:05:33 GMT NATH45 said:

Nov 5, 2023 19:15:19 GMT thereallt said:

www.britannica.com/topic/genocide

1 million growing into 5 million is kind of counter to that.    Not my fault you put feelings over facts.


And for good measure, lets cover another buzzword used by the pro-Hamas crowd


www.britannica.com/question/What-is-apartheid

Under aparthied, blacks in South Africa had no rights of citizenship.   By contrast Arabs (1/5 of the Israeli population) enjoy full citzenship rights in Israel.   And are not even required by law to serve in the miltary, only the Jewish population has that obligation.

And as I've said before, the only reason the two-state soloution hasn't worked is that the Palestinians keep rejecting it.    "From the river to the sea" is the only solution they will accept.

Those Arabs, were overwhelming the remnants and descendants of the Arabs who stayed within the borders Israel declared after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

Then when the state of Israel was created out of the British Mandate of Palestine, then home to about 1.2 million Arabs, more than 700,000 of them were expelled or departed in what Arabs call the nakba, or catastrophe.

Plan Dalet has since been described as the " blueprint for ethnic cleansing " which was essentially a plan to take as much land away from The Arabs, expell those people and increase its borders before, and in anticipation of the invasion by Arab armies.

Those left then automatically became citizens, forming about half of Israel’s population. Unlike Jewish citizens, Arab citizens of Israel were subjected to military rule until 1966.

Israel’s establishment as an explicitly Jewish state is a primary point of contention, with many of the state’s critics arguing that this by nature casts non-Jews as second-class citizens with fewer rights. The 1950 Law of Return, for example, grants all Jews, as well as their children, grandchildren, and spouses, the right to move to Israel and automatically gain citizenship. Non-Jews do not have these rights. Palestinians and their descendants have no legal right to return to the lands their families held before being displaced in 1948 or 1967.

Some 40% of Arabs in Israel are considered " poor " with predominantly Arab towns and schools receiving significantly less funding until recently compared to their Jewish counterparts. Many feel they are treated with discrimination, having significantly less representation politically and socially despite making up 1/5 the population and even more so with the rise of extreme right wing politics and ruling class, who deem anyone pro-palenstine as a terrorist sympathiser.

Sounds like a delightful time. They probably do suck at it, but that hasn't stopped them trying.

I never said there wasn't discrimination in Israel.  Just not apartheid.

KJ don't confuse reciting history for justification.

Hamas has done things. Israel has done things. Palestine has done things. In addition, other countries have done things...

A terrorist attack like the one 4 weeks doesn't just happen. It is a result of 80 years of occupation, fighting and oppression resulting in radicalisation and eventually extremism. It is chapter 8 of a long and dirty story that likely doesn't end here in this decade. Or the next.

Similarly, The Second World War didn't just happen because Hilter hated Jews and decided to involve everyone on the planet. His ascending to power was born from over a decade of social and economic turmoil among other things as Germany was held accountable for The Great War. The First World War, while we're on it, was a reaction to decades, perhaps centuries of imperialism, not necessarily one Archduke.

Every conflict has a root cause embedded deep in history that pre-dates the most recent turn of events. So, whether you believe pointing out some of the Israel sins of the past is anti-semitic or not, it doesn't change their actions. Nor does it justify the actions of Hamas.

There's no good guys here. Except maybe the innocent people dying.

Nov 6, 2023 4:08:48 GMT NATH45 said:

KJ don't confuse reciting history for justification.

Hamas has done things. Israel has done things. Palestine has done things. In addition, other countries have done things...

A terrorist attack like the one 4 weeks doesn't just happen. It is a result of 80 years of occupation, fighting and oppression resulting in radicalisation and eventually extremism. It is chapter 8 of a long and dirty story that likely doesn't end here in this decade. Or the next.

Similarly, The Second World War didn't just happen because Hilter hated Jews and decided to involve everyone on the planet. His ascending to power was born from over a decade of social and economic turmoil among other things as Germany was held accountable for The Great War. The First World War, while we're on it, was a reaction to decades, perhaps centuries of imperialism, not necessarily one Archduke.

Every conflict has a root cause embedded deep in history that pre-dates the most recent turn of events. So, whether you believe pointing out some of the Israel sins of the past is anti-semitic or not, it doesn't change their actions. Nor does it justify the actions of Hamas.

There's no good guys here. Except maybe the innocent people dying.

I don’t disagree with anything you said.

C might want to read that more than me.

I’d also like to say there seems to be an attribution to comments, beliefs, or statements that I’ve never said laced in your last two paragraphs. I don’t know if that’s intentional or not, but to be clear, I’m not praising Israel.

Nov 6, 2023 4:01:00 GMT thereallt said:

Nov 5, 2023 22:05:33 GMT NATH45 said:

Those Arabs, were overwhelming the remnants and descendants of the Arabs who stayed within the borders Israel declared after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

Then when the state of Israel was created out of the British Mandate of Palestine, then home to about 1.2 million Arabs, more than 700,000 of them were expelled or departed in what Arabs call the nakba, or catastrophe.

Plan Dalet has since been described as the " blueprint for ethnic cleansing " which was essentially a plan to take as much land away from The Arabs, expell those people and increase its borders before, and in anticipation of the invasion by Arab armies.

Those left then automatically became citizens, forming about half of Israel’s population. Unlike Jewish citizens, Arab citizens of Israel were subjected to military rule until 1966.

Israel’s establishment as an explicitly Jewish state is a primary point of contention, with many of the state’s critics arguing that this by nature casts non-Jews as second-class citizens with fewer rights. The 1950 Law of Return, for example, grants all Jews, as well as their children, grandchildren, and spouses, the right to move to Israel and automatically gain citizenship. Non-Jews do not have these rights. Palestinians and their descendants have no legal right to return to the lands their families held before being displaced in 1948 or 1967.

Some 40% of Arabs in Israel are considered " poor " with predominantly Arab towns and schools receiving significantly less funding until recently compared to their Jewish counterparts. Many feel they are treated with discrimination, having significantly less representation politically and socially despite making up 1/5 the population and even more so with the rise of extreme right wing politics and ruling class, who deem anyone pro-palenstine as a terrorist sympathiser.

Sounds like a delightful time. They probably do suck at it, but that hasn't stopped them trying.

I never said there wasn't discrimination in Israel.  Just not apartheid.

I'll let you ring Amnesty and The Human Rights Watch, in addition to a number of groups within Israel itself and tell them they're all wrong in their reporting that Israel's policies don't amount to apartheid.

They've been reporting on this stuff for over 2 decades now, and let's, while we're at it, define the word, apartheid. Instead of just trying to invoke memories of the SA apartheid to broaden the definition.

" The crime against humanity of apartheid under the Apartheid Convention, the Rome Statute and customary international law is committed when any inhuman or inhumane act (essentially a serious human rights violation) is perpetrated in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another, with the intention to maintain that system. "

Again, these accusations of an apartheid aren't new and it's not like a bunch of dweebs on a wrestling forum suggested it for the first time.

Nov 6, 2023 4:10:49 GMT KJ said:

Nov 6, 2023 4:08:48 GMT NATH45 said:

KJ don't confuse reciting history for justification.

Hamas has done things. Israel has done things. Palestine has done things. In addition, other countries have done things...

A terrorist attack like the one 4 weeks doesn't just happen. It is a result of 80 years of occupation, fighting and oppression resulting in radicalisation and eventually extremism. It is chapter 8 of a long and dirty story that likely doesn't end here in this decade. Or the next.

Similarly, The Second World War didn't just happen because Hilter hated Jews and decided to involve everyone on the planet. His ascending to power was born from over a decade of social and economic turmoil among other things as Germany was held accountable for The Great War. The First World War, while we're on it, was a reaction to decades, perhaps centuries of imperialism, not necessarily one Archduke.

Every conflict has a root cause embedded deep in history that pre-dates the most recent turn of events. So, whether you believe pointing out some of the Israel sins of the past is anti-semitic or not, it doesn't change their actions. Nor does it justify the actions of Hamas.

There's no good guys here. Except maybe the innocent people dying.

I don’t disagree with anything you said.

C might want to read that more than me.

I’d also like to say there seems to be an attribution to comments, beliefs, or statements that I’ve never said laced in your last two paragraphs. I don’t know if that’s intentional or not, but to be clear, I’m not praising Israel.

It's a generalisation, and I apologise if you thought it was aimed at you.

There's a sentiment out there in particular media spheres and political realms that rubs off on the Average Joe that Israel is the sympathetic baby face here defending itself. To a degree it is, or the believe they are.

But to paraphrase Alfred, they're buring down the forest looking for the bandit.

Nov 6, 2023 2:34:17 GMT NATH45 said:

What is important to remember, the Hamas terrorist attacks where executed by Hamas and not the greater civilian population of Palestine.

Similarly, the actions of the Israeli military and those of the Israeli leadership are not the actions of greater Israeli population.

Speaking on the suffering of the Palestinian people isn't anti-semitic or pro-Hamas. Innocent people are dying as part of an indiscriminate bombing campaign designed to displace and annihilate a population that has lived under oppression for decades to make way for more living space for the Israeli people. Anyone with any sense of humanity would understand this. ( and in an ironic twist, seeing the similarities with Germany pre-WW1, attack first policy to curb a hypothetical invasion by their neighbours.. Israel had a similar policy way back when this all began )

We've condemned the actions of Russia for waging a war on the same basic principles - ownership and entitlement. Yet, the World applauds Israeli. The only difference is, a terrorist organisation shot first. Hence the justification for war.

I hear you on that.   Ideally  the two sides would call a cease fire and then hammer out some kind of agreement.

But this is NEVER going to happen with Hamas in charge.  Hamas is 100% dedicated to the destruction of Israel.  They've sold the Palestinian people on a pipe dream where they will drive out the all of the Jews and rule all of Palestine "from the river to the sea"   Any ceasefire with Hamas will only lead to further attacks by Hamas.

Sorry but the harsh truth is that Israel will wipe out every Palestinian before letting their nation be destroyed.  The path Hamas has chosen for the Palestinians leads to nothing but death.  The sooner the Palestinains see that the better off they will be.

Nov 6, 2023 0:44:12 GMT c said:

As for being anti-Israeli, I am anti-child murder. At least 4000 children dead so far, with some estimates closer to 7000. How anyone can be ok with child murder on this scale is beyond me.

Unless they happen to be Israeli children......

How many of those children were killed by Palestinian children?

Cause what I am seeing is an uninvolved group, Palestinian children, being slaughtered in retaliation for the acts of a radicalist group, Hamas.  And several people here saying killing these kids is justified basically.

Reported the sub that appeared was not one of our nuclear subs now, but armed with Tomahawks. Carries 154 missile with 1000 pound payloads. Early reports misclassified it.

Nov 6, 2023 11:33:37 GMT c said:

How many of those children were killed by Palestinian children?

Cause what I am seeing is an uninvolved group, Palestinian children, being slaughtered in retaliation for the acts of a radicalist group, Hamas.  And several people here saying killing these kids is justified basically.

How many of those children were killed by Israeli children?

No one is justifying killing kids, except for your omission of acknowledging the innocent Israeli deaths.

Only one group is killing children right now. Hamas killed kids too, but they are not killing them at this moment. Israel is and people are whatabouting and sealioning.

Nov 6, 2023 16:06:30 GMT c said:

Only one group is killing children right now. Hamas killed kids too, but they are not killing them at this moment. Israel is and people are whatabouting and sealioning.

Here is the difference.

Palestinian children are dying because Hamas is using them as human shields.

By contrast the Israelis don't hide behind their children.    Is Hamas wanted to fight Israeli soldiers, they know exactly where they are.  Instead Hamas deliberately chose to target Israeli children.

How many children were killed by Hamas? And what percentage of the people killed in the Hamas attack where children?

For Palestine I am seeing about 4500 and 50%.

Children are not combatants and it is a war crime to kill them.

Nov 6, 2023 16:48:06 GMT c said:

How many children were killed by Hamas? And what percentage of the people killed in the Hamas attack where children?

For Palestine I am seeing about 4500 and 50%.

Children are not combatants and it is a war crime to kill them.

You still don't get it.

If Hamas wants their children to stop dying, all they they have to do is stop setting up in hospitals, schools, and residential areas,


But they do so anyway so when Israel goes after them, they can yell to the world "Israel is killing our children!!!!" despite the fact that THEY are the reason the children are dying.


Hamas dosen't give a damn about Palestinian children.   If they did, they would try and keep them out of the line of fire, not throw them directly in it.

Killing unarmed children is a war crime. What you are supporting are war crimes. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Israel killed more children than Hamas killed in their entire attack.

///

Conflict as it goes on is bringing us much closer to war with China than Ukraine did. US attacking anyone entering the war, China enters. And it seems other countries may consider the wholesale slaughter of children a problem even if Americans consider it a normal part of life.

Children dying in Lebanon now.

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-army-says-it-intercepted-drone-approaching-over-lebanon-2023-11-05/

///

UN starting warn about the toll of suffering caused to newborns and children.  Confirmed schools were bombed and with hospitals having their power knocked out that premature babies are likely to die.  

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/05/gazas-children-face-catastrophe-as-death-toll-nears-4000-un-warns

C has only expressed concern for one side’s children. I just want that noted once more.

How many of them died?

Nov 6, 2023 17:40:18 GMT c said:

Killing unarmed children is a war crime. What you are supporting are war crimes. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Israel killed more children than Hamas killed in their entire attack.

///

Conflict as it goes on is bringing us much closer to war with China than Ukraine did. US attacking anyone entering the war, China enters. And it seems other countries may consider the wholesale slaughter of children a problem even if Americans consider it a normal part of life.

Unless Hamas does it.   Gotcha.

Nov 6, 2023 18:06:44 GMT c said:

How many of them died?

Oh. Quantity matters. There’s a threshold of acceptable vs. unacceptable in this dialogue. Cool.

I mean you all claim to care so much for these kids, you should at least know how many died. If it helps you can go back a few pages and see where I talked about it. Will kind of defeat that whole point you were making though.

And again, only one side is actively killing kids now. That is why I am talking about them. Each day the same amount of kids killed in the initial attack are killed in Palestine and you all are like that is cool.

UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres says Rafah crossing with Egypt alone cannot get enough aid into Gaza, calls for humanitarian ceasefire to end “nightmare”.

The UN chief tells reporters Gaza is “becoming a graveyard for children”.

This comes as Joe Biden and Benjamin Netanyahu discussed “the possibility of tactical pauses” in Israel’s military operations in Gaza to facilitate humanitarian aid, according to a readout of a call between the leaders earlier today.

The readout did not indicate if Netanyahu was receptive to any so-called tactical pause, but he has ruled out the possibility of a ceasefire and US secretary of state Antony Blinken left the Middle East today with no progress towards a humanitarian pause in the fighting.

Does he know that a few dozen Israeli children also died?

Pause was rejected. Bibi still using the if we pause Hamas grows stronger line.  

///

Leaked documents show the US is about to pull unconditional support and start to make it clear we can only support Israel if they follows the laws of war.  

Nov 6, 2023 20:40:13 GMT c said:

Does he know that a few dozen Israeli children also died?

“Fuck those kids.”
- C

I can't believe I, of all people need to say this.. ease up guys.

More deaths in the West Bank today.

Very likely once the US make a statement that we will not give unconditional support this is over. US is the only thing stopping a coalition invasion right now. UN and most nations in the UN calling for ceasefire now.

I would be shocked if we did not make this statement by week's end. Resentment is growing fast globally.