That's one of Tanahashi's go-to finishes. He can't High Fly Flow every night like he used to. In recent G1s he has had many matches where the younger/stronger/bigger wrestler beats him up for a while, then the wily veteran Tanahashi sneaks a rollup outta nowhere.

I liked Hiroshi Tanahashi/Zack Sabre Jr. for what it was. Bryan Danielson vs. Kazuchika Okada was fantastic.

I'll watch the other matches that had my interest over the weekend.

Jan 7, 2024 18:21:57 GMT Emperor said:

You are correct. That was the original vision for Ren Narita, a pure wrestler, but I feel that got lost along the way, in my mind if nobody elses. He did start off strong in the TV title tournament, but after that it went downhill. The "Strong Style" stable didn't work out, those three wrestlers never seemed comfortable together. Narita wasn't getting any results. In kayfabe, he's frustrated, what he's doing isn't working, so he comes up with this long plan to join House of Torture at the expense of Shota Umino.

My hope is this all leads to a redemption arc where he faces Shibata himself, and loses, leading him to realise that pure wrestling is the best wrestling.

You just responded to tangible issues of not getting to see good wrestling with a description of a storyline. I completely agree this makes sense as a storyline. But your wish for where it leads is pretty farfetched; we will probably just get him being a goblin like Sho for a while with nothing coming of it is my guess. But I would be very glad if it did turn out that way. In any case, we no longer get good matches from him in the meantime.

Jan 7, 2024 18:21:57 GMT Emperor said:

I honestly don't know how you define a "thrown together" tag team and how you define a "real team". You're just using these terms to slander Bishamon because you don't like them. I agree that Bishamon's initial push was kinda forced, but if a tag team is pushed and succeeds and they roll with that, don't they stop being a "thrown together non-team"? That's exactly what happened with Dangerous Tekkers, and is happening now with ELP/Hikuleo.

Thrown together random tag teams has been a valid and longstanding complaint in wrestling discussions of companies not caring about their tag divisions for a very long time. I am confused that you seem unfamiliar with it. They can stop being a "thrown together non-team" with time, yes, and that sort of has happened with Bishamon. But the point is that they still suffer from that being their origin considering they still don't mesh well together. They need someone exciting to compliment them, so when they both need that...them teaming with anyone else would probably be better and make for better matches. Their tag team moves are cringeworthy. It's not improving. They are sticking with them. The moves that resulted from two random non-tag competitors being thrown together and coming up with some moves off the top of their head without really knowing tag wrestling. They remain outside of their element and don't seem to be growing as a team in the ways that would reduce this issue.

Maybe it's just because they are individually more talented, but Dangerous Tekkers very quickly felt like a "real team" and had solid tag team principles eventually despite originally being a randomly thrown-together team. Maybe it's because they put more effort in instead of settling for whatever they started with and kept improving. Not that Yoshi and Goto aren't trying hard, but maybe they just don't think smart when it comes to tag wrestling. Which would not be the case if they were actual tag team wrestlers.

ELP/Hukuleo currently suffer from much the same fate with some pretty terrible tag team moves. Maybe they will improve with time, or better yet stop being a team so ELP isn't wasted in a division that is not his forte. In any case, they remain more exciting and able to rile up the crowd because they aren't the boring personalities of Goto and Yoshi.

Jan 7, 2024 18:21:57 GMT Emperor said:

SANADA has been a fan favourite yes, but he was more over as the perpetually chasing upper midcarder than he is now. You look at the big marquee WK matchups, Okada vs Tanahashi, Okada vs Kenny, Okada vs Naito, both guys get huge reactions. One may be the "fan favourite" (in these situation usually both guys are) but both wrestlers get huge reactions. I did not get that feeling from SANADA. His reaction paled in comparison to Naito.

I think it's jumping the gun a bit to say he was over more as an upper midcarder. It is likely he got less cheers because he was going up against nobodies most of his championship run or facing ultra babyface Naito. He would probably get the usual cheers if going up against Okada or EVIL, which is when he has historically gotten the most cheers. You may prove to be right going forward depending on how things develop though.

But again, I don't think it is productive to compare to Omega/Okada/Tanahashi/Naito main event WK reactions. Those are the standout exceptions. SANADA is obviously not as popular as those guys. That doesn't mean he doesn't belong in such a spot. What's the alternative, only the 4 most popular guys in the company ever being in the WK main event for eternity? SANADA is a fine pick that can carry his weight well enough. Maybe he will never be Naito, but variety helps everyone stay fresh and generates more interest in the long run. Besides, you could say Naito was in the same spot in his first babyface WK main event spot. And look what happened there.

Fan reaction inside, I very much enjoyed him being in the spot due to the entertaining wrestling match that resulted. But I guess that's the real issue here; you didn't like the match, which is fine.

Jan 7, 2024 18:21:57 GMT Emperor said:

Not really. It's simple and it's effective. Wrestlemania almost always ends with the babyface winning the main event. In NJPW it's not as simple because a lot of these big matches are not clearly defined as face vs heel. But last year, Okada beat heel Jay White in the main event. You don't send the crowd home unhappy on such a big show unless there's a brilliant reason for it.

"Simple and effective" is a silly justification for your argument. The sentence makes sense, but it doesn't lead to your conclusion that doing it was the best move or the only move. You said yourself that there's a dozen different ways in special circumstances that having the non-ultra-babyface win could turn out a good idea. They easily could have planned one such way. And it also could have been effective. Again, I'm not saying either way would have been for-sure better, but you saying it was the only "good choice" holds zero weight.

Jan 7, 2024 18:21:57 GMT Emperor said:

To me Naito winning was far more of a foregone conclusion than Finlay winning. But we might as well drop this, you liked the main event more and I liked the triple threat more. There's nothing more to say.

There is plenty of reason to discuss things on a discussion forum and gain further understanding of one's opinions. We now know that you liked the triple threat more, not only because it had amazing talents in Moxley and Ospreay in there, but also because it came across as a lot more exciting to you and less predictable. This is fair. I enjoyed the more traditional wrestling display that Naito/SANADA put on and didn't notice the injuries to bring it down. I mocked you too much about it, but that is only because I am immature.