When did top babyfaces start submitting? Can anybody narrow it down to the first? When did it become (semi)common? 

For the longest time no good guys above that Holly/Aldo/Brad Armstrong/Jannetty level would dare submit. Would have killed their heat. Oh sure. Sometimes you had ref stoppages, pass outs, or a good guy getting pinned by the Figure Four. That stuff was acceptable. It happens. But outright QUITTING was a wimp move. A quitter would never be taken seriously again. Ya gotta tough it out. Could you imagine Hogan/Warrior/Surfer Sting/babyface Luger quitting? How about top babyface Bret or 95-96 Michaels? What about late 90s Austin/Taker/Foley/Rock? Of course not! Fans during the 80s & 90s weren't going to back a quitter. Quitting just wasn't a thing done by credible good guys. Heels could quit because most of them were wimps at heart. But a top good guy quitting? Never!

The first one I "remembered" was Savage coming into World War III 1995 with a bum arm and ultimately quitting to a Luger armbar. This was doubly weird because I watched a tape that very weekend where commentary made a big deal about how Savage had never quit (Wrestlemania VIII maybe?). Well, a quick check reveals I was wrong. The WW3 match was actually a ref stoppage rather than a true submission. 

Another potential answer is Valentine beating Santana for the IC Title in 84 or 85. A book I got in a trade with Matt The IRS Fan circa 94-95 mentioned Valentine breaking Santana's leg with the Figure Four in the match where he won the title. But was it an actual submission or just another pin/ref stoppage? I'm guessing the latter.

WCW had a lot of mid level babyfaces quit in the mid-late 90s against your Malenko/Benoit/Jericho types. That's a step in the....quitting direction. But I don't think any true blue top babyface tapped during that period.

How about ECW? Did Sabu tap at Living Dangerously 99 or was that a pass out/ref stoppage? I don't remember. Any other big babyface quits against Taz? I feel like there must have been. Kilgore Neo Zeed While I have your attention, did Shamrock ever make a top good guy quit during his Corporation run?

It started to become more common by the early 2000s. Angle & Benoit had pretty lethal submissions. Plus Jericho to a lesser extent. I know Rock tapped to Benoit's crossface at least once. Think it was in 2002. And check this out. Also from 2002, Angle made UNDERTAKER & HULK HOGAN tap within a few weeks of each other. That's more impressive than winning a gold medal with a broken freaking neck. (Kurt also made Austin & Brock tap, but they were heels at the time). Angle also tapped out Eddie at Summerslam 04 & HBK at WM 21. I'm sure he made upper midcarder Edge quit a few times as well. Angle has to be the king of making top babyfaces quit.

Upper card good guys were quitting all the time in ROH during the 4 years I followed the promotion closely. 

So I've got 2002 as the year top good guys started quitting in droves. Then it became a trend. But I'm sure something came earlier. Whatcha got?

It IS interesting how we as fans and really the whole business sees it as WEAK.

Jan 26, 2024 21:44:56 GMT @ness said:

It IS interesting how we as fans and really the whole business sees it as WEAK.

Think about it this way. MAYBE the phrase small package is used as inside talk between fans to describe certain wrestlers. Leading to the divide & anger among the IWC. 5 stars no stars? flips vs fists? NAW BRO. It's all about the man region.

Jan 26, 2024 21:30:06 GMT Baker said:

How about ECW? Did Sabu tap at Living Dangerously 99 or was that a pass out/ref stoppage? I don't remember. Any other big babyface quits against Taz? I feel like there must have been. Kilgore Neo Zeed While I have your attention, did Shamrock ever make a top good guy quit during his Corporation run?

Sabu passed out at both Living Dangerously '99 and Barely Legal.

This is a great overall question. Really am struggling to remember babyfaces submitting. Even post-tap out, where you would think it became more acceptable, but oddly, babyfaces seem only slightly less protected from having to do so (a relatively small window of Kurt Angle opponents being the exception). 

If anyone was making babyfaces submit, it would be Taz in 1996/1997. This is what I thought. An unstoppable heel, ushering in "tap out" into professional wrestling lexicon. It had to be, right? Turns out, not really.

First off, Taz as the shoot fighting badass really gets his start destroying jobbers. Which was great. He was great at this. But hardly “real babyfaces” to check up on. This made things much easier to sort through, as there wasn’t many.

Mikey Whipwreck Big Ass Extreme Bash 96: Mikey is a few months off from being champ, and we get the closest to a babyface submission. Mikey doesn’t tap, but the ref calls for the bell before Mikey taps out, signaling a possible verbal submission, but it isn’t really acknowledged. Taz doesn’t give up the hold and Mikey passes out anyway, taking away from the question of whether Mikey gave up or not.

Tommy Dreamer at Natural Born Killaz: No contest

Paul Varelans at Hardcore Heaven: Paul isn’t a babyface, he’s actually the default heel as an outsider, but he does tap (barely, not really caught on camera), but this is a big “name” tap, which was the entire point trying to hype it as a “shoot.” But not a babyface submission.

Johnny Smith at When Worlds Collide: Smith passes out. To call Smith a “real babyface” is such a stretch, but I’m including it just to show how every non-jobber was protected from tapping, let alone real babyfaces. Taz, even at his most Taz, Paul E. is still protecting his opponents from having to tap.

Little Guido at High Incident: This is promoted as a “shoot rules match” and Guido does tap (with Kurt Angle on commentary!). Second non-jobber tap, but not a real babyface, and somewhat expected under shoot rules.

RVD at Holiday Hell: RVD passes out. Not even a babyface, but still protected from tapping as a name.

Tracy Smothers at Cyberslam 97: Passes out

RVD at Hostile City Showdown 97: Don’t have it on my hard drive, can’t tell if RVD passed or tapped. Assuming passed out, considering everything that’s happened the previous year

Sabu at Barely Legal: Sabu generously passes out to Taz even though he should have went over

^This is wild. Thought for sure Taz would at least be making midcard babyfaces tap. What about the Jericho match? Can't remember if tap or pass out. Guessing pass out given...

Jan 27, 2024 2:08:58 GMT Kilgore said:

Tracy Smothers at Cyberslam 97: Passes out

WHY?!? What need is there to protect Freddie Joe Floyd in 1997? Boggles the mind. 

Jan 27, 2024 2:13:33 GMT Baker said:

What about the Jericho match? Can't remember if tap or pass out. Guessing pass out given...

Fonzie knocks Jericho out with a chair, Taz locks in the Tazmission on an already passed out Jericho.

Jan 27, 2024 2:13:33 GMT Baker said:

WHY?!? What need is there to protect Freddie Joe Floyd in 1997? Boggles the mind. 

It's kinda crazy. Although, "Choke you out" was even more prominent Taz speak than tapping people out?

Jan 26, 2024 21:30:06 GMT Baker said:

Another potential answer is Valentine beating Santana for the IC Title in 84 or 85. A book I got in a trade with Matt The IRS Fan circa 94-95 mentioned Valentine breaking Santana's leg with the Figure Four in the match where he won the title. 

Nope. Valentine won with a Pearl Harbor knee. Post-match is where we get the Figure Four leg break.

But another match jumped into my mind and I was able to confirm it. So far our earliest big babyface submission is Rick Martel QUITTING the AWA Championship away while trapped in Stan Hansen's Boston Crab. Leave it to mediocre babyface Martel to be a quitter. Model was soooo much better.

On the idea of babyfaces submitting HHH stopping HBK from seemingly tapping 5 minutes into their match was always really unique. Would've been a weird match finish

Benoit def. HHH & HBK (X) (5:07) [TITLE CHANGE]

I thought Flair beat Dusty by submission in 1986 for the title, turns out it was the dreaded pin by Figure Four. Another tally for being passed out.

Backlund losing the title to Sheik is a grey area with Arnie Skaaland throwing in the towel.

I know the original question was "top babyface" but considering how hard that's been, I've been racking my brain for any babyface pre-Monday Night Wars. Best I can do tonight is 1-2-3 Kid submitting to Bret Hart in their great Raw match.

Just thinking about it from a WCW perspective, there were only a few main event guys with submission finishes and guys like Ric seldom won with the move. Both finishes against Savage involved outside interference and then it wasn't long before he was doing the honours for the Giant.

Scott Steiner was the first guy that came to mind, but of all his big wins:

vs. Diamond Dallas Page - Superbrawl 1999 - DDP passes out in the Recliner

vs. Goldberg - Fall Brawl 2000 - Goldberg is knocked out by the steel pipe and Steiner uses the Recliner.

vs. Booker T - Mayhem 2000 - Like Page, Booker passes out

vs. Sid Vicious - Starrcade 2000 - Again, passes out.

vs. Kevin Nash - Superbrawl 2001 - Brass knucks, Steel Chair and Nash is knocked out as the Steiner Recliner is locked on.

vs. Diamond Dallas Page - Greed 2001 - Steel pipe, Steiner Recliner is locked in and DDP is unconcious

I even went back to Sting's short-lived heel run in 1999 with his win over Hogan, outside interference and Hogan is knocked out as Sting locks in the Scorpion Deathlock.

Thought about Totally Buff forcing Goldberg out of the company, that was a pinfall after a Doomsday Device Blockbuster. Can't really recall too many Lex matches as a heel, but usually it involved Elizabeth interfering.

Bret was my last hope here. He was a flip flopper and tossed into the mid-card, but he did have the odd high profile match.

vs. Sting @ Halloween Havoc '98 - Attacks Sting with the steel chair, Sting is out as he locks in the Sharpshooter.

vs. DDP @ Nitro November 98 - Even on one good leg, Bret recaptures the title in a glorified No DQ handicap match as the Giant just chokeslams Page to death. Bret slaps on the sharpshooter but it was all elementary.

The only exception I could come up with and it's a dicey one, is the main event of Mayhem which was immortalised in the intro to Malcom In The Middle.

Dicey because Benoit was only just starting to establish himself as a main event talent and was clearly the #3 guy behind Bret and Goldberg. However, Mayhem was heavily promoted by WCW, this was Russo/Ferrara's first PPV in charge and this was the main event, so an argument could be made that this was the origin point and once the SmackDown Six had more influence it only became more normalised.

Worth noting too that Sting also tapped out to the Sharpshooter earlier in the night. That one requires even more of asterix as Sting was the heel heading into the match, but turned babyface mid-way through after breaking up with The Total Package (back when WCW was going through an El Matador/Saba Simba/The Dragon phase).

This thread is PW HOW at it's best, interesting look at the psychology of being submitted and it's effect on the good guys vs bad guys, the star system etc. Love it. I booked Bret in my fan fiction tapping out in a big shocker on the first PPV without fully realizing the scope of all this, booked that finish with more of an MMA mindset. That same show Michaels was tapped to Sting in a face vs face match(then came back and won the strap later in the same show). 

Thinking of that and babyfaces that got submitted and what effect it had on their star power, I think there was a deal going in early UFC where the fighters that would take the fight to the ground and win by submission were the heels, while the guys that were trying to brawl and knock guys out were popular babyfaces.

But UFC IV in December 1994 Dan Severn fresh off of a UWFI pro wrestling run in Japan got over in Oklahoma that night as a huge babyface in his UFC debut. He made it to the finals with german suplexes and won the crowd over, then got submitted to Royce Gracie in the first triangle choke after Severn was on top of him for like 30 minutes. Royce submitted him off his back using his legs, was like 100 pounds smaller guy. Even though he tapped out and lost he was instantly the biggest star in the UFC after that night. Dan tells the story of how much that crowd loved him coming up to him after the fight like he was a hero even though he lost. The next UFC PPV was focused all on him it was called "Return Of The Beast" or something, UFC V he dominated the whole tournament beat 3 guys in one night. I think he had Al Snow in his corner and he was NWA Champion. The crowd was white hot for him the whole show, he was a huge draw for the UFC that one and the next one where he fought the former PWFG/UWF pro wrestler for the first UFC title were like 300,000 PPV buys. 

I honestly start to think the Severn vs Gracie match in the UFC IV finals could have been a worked match, all of Severn's strikes were limp like the ones you would see in his UWFI matches against Takada just months earlier, he never even really tries to land a clean shot on Gracie even though he was wide open several times. I think an agreement was made to do a work but let Severn look good for 30 minutes before the tap. The next show Severn comes out completely mauling guys like a wild bear, just violent thrashings in all 3 fights. He didn't have that killer instinct at all in the Gracie match, after watching his UWFI matches from 93-94 I'm leaning towards a work in the Gracie fight. Gracie's opening match from the same tournament also seems suspicious. Doesn't make me love Royce any less but just interesting knowing what it all came from and how it all came to be. 

But look closer at the tap loss, Severn I think got more over from that, he lost with honor the crowd can relate to that a guy that just gave it everything he had and came up short(after mauling 2 guys earlier the same night). 

It's a timely thread as well since this has been a point of contention about Samoa Joe's reign. Instead of having MJF and Hook tap out to the Coquina Clutch, they've been doing the arm-raising deal and Dave Meltzer was especially critical of it. I believe he argued that in a post-UFC world, fans have been conditioned to the tap-out or referees stopping the bout right away.

Old habits die hard in Pro Wrestling.

Jan 27, 2024 16:09:36 GMT Neo Zeed said:

I think there was a deal going in early UFC where the fighters that would take the fight to the ground and win by submission were the heels, while the guys that were trying to brawl and knock guys out were popular babyfaces.

This is absolutely how I viewed things. I'd watch Royce Gracie on his back, basically stalling things until a mistake, which could take forever, and when it worked, it seemed kinda cheap. I think being a boxing fan colored this too, where the goal was to win as many rounds as possible just in case you didn't get a knockout and it went to a decision. UFC, pre-rounds, Gracie was just allowed to have zero concern about trying to win for the majority of the fight. There was no punishment for this strategy. It was maddening. Pure heel behavior. It's Lord Steven Regal's TV Title reign, basically.

Now once I became more educated on the art of grappling, this became pretty cool. This Brazilian guy built like a totally normal dude just choking huge martial artists and wrestlers, who were using fighting disciplines I had actually heard of, and Gracie was just decades ahead of them on the mat. Also, the realization, "Why am I identifying with Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock and Kimo, totally jacked monsters? I'm built like Gracie!" I would absolutely have to grapple like him if I were thrown into a fucking cage to fight.

That being said, up until like the mid-2000's, I'm rooting against every BJJ guy not named Rickson. 

My 2 uncles that would rent those tapes would root against Gracie so hard, their reactions when he would come out of those 8 man tournaments the winner were like me when Flair won the 92 Rumble

Jan 27, 2024 6:54:29 GMT Kilgore said:

I know the original question was "top babyface" but considering how hard that's been, I've been racking my brain for any babyface pre-Monday Night Wars. 

-Jannetty submitting to BORGA's Torture Rack at Summerslam 93 is the first one I thought of.
-Kid must be susceptible to Sharpshooters from Harts because he also submitted to Owen's at KOTR 94. 
-Pretty sure Koko submitted to Owen's Sharpshooter as well this one time on Superstars. Yep. Aired 6/18/94 and was Koko's last televised match.

*Rest of these I looked up on the History of WWE site and was only able to confirm Owen/Bart

-Aldo submitted to Jarrett's Figure Four on the 4/22/95 Superstars
-Mr. Backlund made Doink submit to the dreaded Chickenwing on the 12/12/94 Raw, Kid on the 11/14/94 Raw, and Holly on Superstars 10/22/94.
-Interesting. Owen made Bret, the guy who famously never quit, submit to the Sharpshooter in a house show Ironman Match. House show so it doesn't count, but you KNOW the hardcores who were there called shenanigans every time commentary said "Bret Hart has never quit!"
-Koko returns, having submitted to an IRS STF on the 4/9/94 Superstars
-Owen also returns, having submitted Bart Gunn with the Sharpshooter on the 3/7/94 Raw and the 2/26/94 Wrestling Challenge. AND Jannetty on the 2/19/94 Superstars. They really went all in on that Owen push. Maybe I should have seen the WM 10 upset coming after all. 
===============
Took Kilgore's theory to the Monday Night War and beyond. Remembered most of these, but did check for confirmation...

-Jericho made HBK tap to the Walls on the 7/21/03 Raw
-Angle made Rey tap to the Ankle Lock at Summerslam 02 and at least twice on Smackdown (2/10/05 & 3/31/06)
-Angle also made Jannetty tap to the Ankle Lock on the 3/17/05 Smackdown. At this point let's just call this The Kurt Angle Thread.
-Flair did indeed get submission wins with the Figure 4 over mid level faces like Wright, Riggs & Bagwell in 1996
-Jericho went on an Owenesque tear in early 98 with back to back PPV submission wins against Rey (Souled Out) & Juvy (SuperBrawl)
-Here's an interesting one. Flair submitted to Bret's Sharpshooter at Souled Out 98. Earliest high profile babyface submission?
===============
ROH

-Badass babyface Low Ki was established as their top guy with a main event win on the very first show. He submitted to Daniel Bryan on the second show. So right away you knew this promotion was going to be something different.
-London submitted to Danielson (in a 2/3 Falls Match he ultimately won, but still!) when he was likely the most popular babyface in the promotion.
-Danielson submitted to Joe at Midnight Express Reunion. Joe also submitted a bunch of mid level babyfaces during his long title reign.
-Punk surprisingly did NOT submit to Joe in their 3rd match. He passed out. Good thing I checked. He did, however, tap to Brent Albright’s “Crowbar” armbar in OVW.

What match was that where Benoit got tapped out but got a standing ovation from the crowd after the match? I remember seeing it on the WWE Benoit DVD but it was one of those deals that happened after I quit watching that I thought was very cool.

Jan 28, 2024 0:11:50 GMT Neo Zeed said:

What match was that where Benoit got tapped out but got a standing ovation from the crowd after the match? I remember seeing it on the WWE Benoit DVD but it was one of those deals that happened after I quit watching that I thought was very cool.

Royal Rumble 2003 vs. Angle. Kicking myself over forgetting that one. Great match! Among the best of the 2000s all time.

Found a thread somewhere claiming babyfaces submitting stopped being a thing again once Cena became established. I don't watch enough modern wrestling to know how it is these days. Nor do I really care. So it looks like we've got a narrow window from 02-06* when it was still rare, mind you, but babyfaces submitted just enough to make submissions dramatic. Now we go off topic with some stuff I just found interesting...

Two finishes I always thought were interesting/cool are Raven passing out in Benoit's crossface because "he liked the pain" at Souled Out 98 (GOAT submission show?) and even better was Foley giving himself the Mandible Claw at the October 98 PPV so he could pass out rather than suffer the indignity of submitting to Shamrock's ankle lock.

Lex Luger is up there with Angle having been the first person (as far as I know) to submit Hulk Hogan AND Bret Hart. Just one more reason Flexy Lexy belongs in all the Hall of Fames.

Here's another interesting one....Rey (who has now surpassed Kid when it comes to babyface QUITTERS) lost an I QUIT match to Chavo on the 10/20/06 Smackdown. This is the only instance I'm aware of where the babyface actually uttered the words in an I QUIT match.

*Wait just a minute...Just remembered Cena himself tapped babyface HBK at WM 23 in 2007. 2000s HBK was a trooper who gave back what with tapping to Y2J, Benoit, Kurt, and now Cena.

Jan 27, 2024 23:58:49 GMT Baker said:

Jan 27, 2024 6:54:29 GMT Kilgore said:

I know the original question was "top babyface" but considering how hard that's been, I've been racking my brain for any babyface pre-Monday Night Wars. 

-Jannetty submitting to BORGA's Torture Rack at Summerslam 93 is the first one I thought of.
-Kid must be susceptible to Sharpshooters from Harts because he also submitted to Owen's at KOTR 94. 
-Pretty sure Koko submitted to Owen's Sharpshooter as well this one time on Superstars. Yep. Aired 6/18/94 and was Koko's last televised match.

*Rest of these I looked up on the History of WWE site and was only able to confirm Owen/Bart

-Aldo submitted to Jarrett's Figure Four on the 4/22/95 Superstars
-Mr. Backlund made Doink submit to the dreaded Chickenwing on the 12/12/94 Raw, Kid on the 11/14/94 Raw, and Holly on Superstars 10/22/94.
-Interesting. Owen made Bret, the guy who famously never quit, submit to the Sharpshooter in a house show Ironman Match. House show so it doesn't count, but you KNOW the hardcores who were there called shenanigans every time commentary said "Bret Hart has never quit!"
-Koko returns, having submitted to an IRS STF on the 4/9/94 Superstars
-Owen also returns, having submitted Bart Gunn with the Sharpshooter on the 3/7/94 Raw and the 2/26/94 Wrestling Challenge. AND Jannetty on the 2/19/94 Superstars. They really went all in on that Owen push. Maybe I should have seen the WM 10 upset coming after all. 
===============
Took Kilgore's theory to the Monday Night War and beyond. Remembered most of these, but did check for confirmation...

-Jericho made HBK tap to the Walls on the 7/21/03 Raw
-Angle made Rey tap to the Ankle Lock at Summerslam 02 and at least twice on Smackdown (2/10/05 & 3/31/06)
-Angle also made Jannetty tap to the Ankle Lock on the 3/17/05 Smackdown. At this point let's just call this The Kurt Angle Thread.
-Flair did indeed get submission wins with the Figure 4 over mid level faces like Wright, Riggs & Bagwell in 1996
-Jericho went on an Owenesque tear in early 98 with back to back PPV submission wins against Rey (Souled Out) & Juvy (SuperBrawl)
-Here's an interesting one. Flair submitted to Bret's Sharpshooter at Souled Out 98. Earliest high profile submission?
===============
ROH

-Badass babyface Low Ki was established as their top guy with a main event win on the very first show. He submitted to Daniel Bryan on the second show. So right away you knew this promotion was going to be something different.
-London submitted to Danielson (in a 2/3 Falls Match he ultimately won, but still!) when he was likely the most popular babyface in the promotion.
-Danielson submitted to Joe at Midnight Express Reunion. Joe also submitted a bunch of mid level babyfaces during his long title reign.
-Punk surprisingly did NOT submit to Joe in their 3rd match. He passed out. Good thing I checked. 

For Flair he submitted to Ricky Steamboat's chicken wing in the 2 out of 3 falls match at the New Orleans Clash. JR made a huge deal about it on commentary as the first time Flair ever submitted.

Got to thinking about tapping becoming a thing in the first place and what a huge, huge change that was. Old timers like us know babyfaces pounding the mat was a common technique used to get the fans involved. To go from that time tested technique to tapping=submission almost overnight was a complete 180 that went much, much smoother than anybody could guessed. Or maybe just smoother than would have predicted. I dunno. Got a related storytime I'll have to drop in the Backyard Wrestling thread

The death of Virgil reminded me of something I meant to look up for this thread ages ago...

Jan 27, 2024 6:54:29 GMT Kilgore said:

I know the original question was "top babyface" but considering how hard that's been, I've been racking my brain for any babyface pre-Monday Night Wars. Best I can do tonight is 1-2-3 Kid submitting to Bret Hart in their great Raw match.

Add Virgil submitting to Bret on Superstars early in Bret's 1st World Title reign

Is it just timing more than any elaborate way of maintaining their credibility? Quitting verbally was a 90s thing right? It's why WM13 often gets miscredited as an i quit match. There was a lack of submission moves until that point, at least as finishers of stars? Just a handful in general. I feel like I should know this better but I'm not gonna pretend.

Feb 28, 2024 23:54:42 GMT @ness said:

1. Quitting verbally was a 90s thing right?
2. There was a lack of submission moves until that point, at least as finishers of stars? 

1. Yeah. You either submitted verbally or nodded YES up until 1997 or thereabouts when tapping out became a thing.
2. Good question. Let's see how many I can come up with. Not counting sleepers/Million Dollar Dreams/Cobra Clutches...

Scorpion/Sharpshooter: Sting, Owen & Bret. Terry Taylor, Ted Dibiase, and Ronnie Garvin also won matches with the move on occasion.
Figure Four: Valentine, Flair, Jarrett, Buddy Landel, sometimes Tito, Dibiase in Mid South
Boston Crab: Martel, Hansen at least once
Crossface Chickenwing: Backlund
Elevated Chickenwing: Steamboat on occasion
Flying Hammerlock: George "The Animal" Steele
Full Nelson- Hercules, BJ Haynes, Warlord
Bearhug: Hillbilly Jim
Torture Rack: Luger, Borga
Stump Puller: Doink. Didn't Big Bully Busick use this as well?
Canadian Backbreaker: early Hercules & early Rude
Head Vice: Crush. Think Crush also used the Full Nelson to win a time or two
Armbar: Kurosawa, Kensuke Sasaki, Blacktop Bully, Maxx Payne, various Andersons on occasion, and sometimes Scott Norton
Spinning Toehold: Dory & Terry Funk
Texas Cloverleaf: Malenko. Right before tapping out became a thing. 
Camel Clutch: Iron Sheik, Xanta Klaus
Crippler Crossface?: Benoit? Not sure if he used this before the days of tapping out. Same goes for Jericho's "Liontamer" Boston Crab
The Claw: Von Erichs, Windham, Blackjack Mulligan

*That's a decent amount of pre-tapout submission finishers

Before his renaissance, back when he sucked, Erik Watts used to rock an STF as a finisher. Was literally the only thing I remembered about him before his late '90s comeback. 

Muta used to do the inverted version (Muta Lock).

Feb 29, 2024 1:41:14 GMT Kilgore said:

Before his renaissance, back when he sucked, Erik Watts used to rock an STF as a finisher. Was literally the only thing I remembered about him before his late '90s comeback. 

Muta used to do the inverted version (Muta Lock).

Timely. Get outta my head! Was just fixing to write about Spike/Watts in ECW. His STF did stick with people. It was still over huge with the Eldest of the Three Brothers in 95-96. Dude was forever talking up Watts and his STF. Watts really does deserve credit for introducing it to (most) Western wrestling fans. 

Feb 29, 2024 0:12:21 GMT Baker said:

Feb 28, 2024 23:54:42 GMT @ness said:

1. Quitting verbally was a 90s thing right?
2. There was a lack of submission moves until that point, at least as finishers of stars? 

1. Yeah. You either submitted verbally or nodded YES up until 1997 or thereabouts when tapping out became a thing.
2. Good question. Let's see how many I can come up with. Not counting sleepers/Million Dollar Dreams/Cobra Clutches...

Scorpion/Sharpshooter: Sting, Owen & Bret. Terry Taylor, Ted Dibiase, and Ronnie Garvin also won matches with the move on occasion.
Figure Four: Valentine, Flair, Jarrett, Buddy Landel, sometimes Tito, Dibiase in Mid South
Boston Crab: Martel, Hansen at least once
Crossface Chickenwing: Backlund
Elevated Chickenwing: Steamboat on occasion
Flying Hammerlock: George "The Animal" Steele
Full Nelson- Hercules, BJ Haynes, Warlord
Bearhug: Hillbilly Jim
Torture Rack: Luger, Borga
Stump Puller: Doink. Didn't Big Bully Busick use this as well?
Canadian Backbreaker: early Hercules & early Rude
Head Vice: Crush. Think Crush also used the Full Nelson to win a time or two
Armbar: Kurosawa, Kensuke Sasaki, Blacktop Bully, Maxx Payne, various Andersons on occasion, and sometimes Scott Norton
Spinning Toehold: Dory & Terry Funk
Texas Cloverleaf: Malenko. Right before tapping out became a thing. 
Camel Clutch: Iron Sheik, Xanta Klaus
Crippler Crossface?: Benoit? Not sure if he used this before the days of tapping out. Same goes for Jericho's "Liontamer" Boston Crab
The Claw: Von Erichs, Windham, Blackjack Mulligan

*That's a decent amount of pre-tapout submission finishers

When Benoit came back to WCW in 1995 he was using the Dragon Suplex and the Wild Bomb (snap powerbomb) as a finisher. I want to say the crossface started with the Booker T series in 1998 but could be wrong.

Jericho using the Liontamer I think coincided with him turning heel in early '97.