Do you think it is possible for some people to ever believe a basketball player is, was or ever will be better than Jordan?   Sometimes I don't think that people will.  Like no matter what a player does he will never be considered better than Jordan.  Even if every measurable and stat and strength of competition is there people will still not believe.  Am I on crack?  Or am I about right?

What would it take you to believe a player was better than Jordan?

LeBron may have went to 9 Finals, but he's only won three.

Jordan, well he went a perfect six for six.

If James can win this year, then we'll talk.

What makes Jordan so great is several factors.

-His dominance of his era. Once Jordan had a team capable of contending for a title he had a death grip on that bitch and wouldn't let go. Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barkley, Miller, ALL denied championships thanks to Jordan. Hakeem, Drexler, and Payton were only able to win once Jordan retired.

- Jordan completely changed the paradigm of the game. Before Jordan your chances of winning a title without a dominant big man were slim to none. And it was almost unheard of to build your franchise around a shooting guard. Jordan turned both of those things on their head and the impact of that is felt to this day.

- Jordan's universal star power. Jordan is one of the few American athletes (the only one I can think of outside of Muhammad Ali) that is well known practically anywhere in the world. No other basketball player comes close to that kind of world wide stardom.

-Jordan's ability to rise to the occasion. This wonderful playoff run you see from Lebron right now? That was EVERY playoff run for Jordan during his first 3 peat. He never failed to hit the big shots, never failed to close his opponents out, and each playoff run was more breathtaking than the last. We're so excited about Lebron right now because we haven't seen anything like that SINCE Jordan in his prime.

But we can't be prisoners of the moment. As impressive as Lebron is right now he still had not reached those lofty heights. But if Lebron's Cavs can beat the Warriors this year I'm perfectly happy to put Lebron in the conversation.

As to the question of whether Jordan will be surpassed, of course he will. Every great eventually does get surpassed, it's just a matter of whether it will happen in our lifetime.

I’ve already got Lebron ahead of Jordan because he’s bigger, stronger and faster than Jordan and is playing against better competition in a more athletic game. I also don’t think Jordan ever had to face a team as good as the Spurs or Warriors teams are in the league at the same time that he was winning trophies.

People that saw Lebron when they were kids in two decades will be arguing about he’s way better than the guy that the kids like and none of them will know Jordan other than the YouTube clips. It’s as much nostalgia as it is anything else.

I’ve already got Lebron ahead of Jordan because he’s bigger, stronger and faster than Jordan and is playing against better competition in a more athletic game. I also don’t think Jordan ever had to face a team as good as the Spurs or Warriors teams are in the league at the same time that he was winning trophies

Bigger sure. Stronger? Only because he's got about 40 lbs on Jordan, but pound for pound I think Jordan was easily stronger. Jordan was practically impossible to back down in the post, and he used to finish in the paint over LEGIT 7 footers, not the weak mini big men you see today.   Faster???   Not  a chance in hell.    Not to  mention Lebron's  cardio pales next to Jordan's who would go hard at BOTH ends of the floor rather than rest on defense like Lebron often does.

As good as the Warriors I'll give you, but those Utah teams Jordan beat in 97 and 98 were easily as good as the Spurs. People done forgot about the drubbing those Jazz teams gave Shaq's Lakers two years running in the playoffs, The Lakers literally won only one game in two playoff series.

May 30, 2018 2:04:57 GMT mikec said:

I also don’t think Jordan ever had to face a team as good as the Spurs or Warriors teams are in the league at the same time that he was winning trophies.

Nick Wright is that you?

In all seriousness Utah Jazz are no slouch and they are the biggest threat for the Bulls in the finals.

I could say the same thing regarding Lebron haven’t face a team in the eastern conference as good in the 90s that Jordan played against.

A friend gave an interesting summary in the Jordan vs LeBron thing. He compared to Ali and Tyson. Giving them both place to exist. I think the difference is LeBron and Jordan feel closer in time line.

But my question is kind of just asking the seemingly immortality of the romanticism of Jordan. It seems unshakable.

May 30, 2018 3:41:25 GMT pduh said:

May 30, 2018 2:04:57 GMT mikec said:

I also don’t think Jordan ever had to face a team as good as the Spurs or Warriors teams are in the league at the same time that he was winning trophies.

Nick Wright is that you?

In all seriousness Utah Jazz are no slouch and they are the biggest threat for the Bulls in the finals.

I could say the same thing regarding Lebron haven’t face a team in the eastern conference as good in the 90s that Jordan played against.

Pssh. People pretend like the East was great when Jordan was around, but save the Pistons team he eventually beat, what great team in the East did he beat? Jordan won his first title in 91, and the East went 0-2 in the Finals during his first retirement and 0-5 in his second retirement and time with the Wizards. In five of his six championship years the Bulls had more than a 5 game lead on the second beat team in the conference. Jordan beat rugged, deep teams of role players in the East that were not that much different than Lebron’s victories over Rasheed’s Pistons, Rose’s Bulls, or the Paul George Pacers.

The Jazz were definitely the best team Jordan played in the Finals years, but they weren’t the Warriors or the Spurs.

Rings talk is a stupid argument. Jordan never did anything in the Finals more impressive than beating the 73 win Warriors three times in a row to come back down 3-1 for the title... but people keep moving the goalposts on Lebron to be in the conversation with Jordan to “well if he wins this one”, despite being a marked underdog, something Jordan’s Bulls never were in the Finals.

Don’t really get the Tyson-Ali comparison. Tyson didn’t fight as long or have the sustained run of success of Ali. Lebron has a better argument.

May 30, 2018 4:37:02 GMT mikec said:

May 30, 2018 3:41:25 GMT pduh said:

Nick Wright is that you?

In all seriousness Utah Jazz are no slouch and they are the biggest threat for the Bulls in the finals.

I could say the same thing regarding Lebron haven’t face a team in the eastern conference as good in the 90s that Jordan played against.

Pssh. People pretend like the East was great when Jordan was around, but save the Pistons team he eventually beat, what great team in the East did he beat? Jordan won his first title in 91, and the East went 0-2 in the Finals during his first retirement and 0-5 in his second retirement and time with the Wizards. In five of his six championship years the Bulls had more than a 5 game lead on the second beat team in the conference. Jordan beat rugged, deep teams of role players in the East that were not that much different than Lebron’s victories over Rasheed’s Pistons, Rose’s Bulls, or the Paul George Pacers.

The Jazz were definitely the best team Jordan played in the Finals years, but they weren’t the Warriors or the Spurs.

Rings talk is a stupid argument. Jordan never did anything in the Finals more impressive than beating the 73 win Warriors three times in a row to come back down 3-1 for the title... but people keep moving the goalposts on Lebron to be in the conversation with Jordan to “well if he wins this one”, despite being a marked underdog, something Jordan’s Bulls never were in the Finals.

Don’t really get the Tyson-Ali comparison. Tyson didn’t fight as long or have the sustained run of success of Ali. Lebron has a better argument.

The 90s Knicks are no slouch which they face each other few times in the postseason only once Knicks won he series but that is only when MJ retired the first time though.

Orlando Magic granted Bulls sweep them in the ECF that year is a nice young squad there.

Pacers which I beleive they take the Bulls to seven games that one particular year in the ECF. Pretty good squad Rick Smith, Reggie Miller, The Davis, Mark Jackson and etc.

As for the rings arguments yeah that I can agree never get that argument it is really not a good argument the begin with. If that is the case then might as well call Robert Horry the true GOAT.

May 30, 2018 3:50:38 GMT theend said:

A friend gave an interesting summary in the Jordan vs LeBron thing. He compared to Ali and Tyson. Giving them both place to exist. I think the difference is LeBron and Jordan feel closer in time line.

But my question is kind of just asking the seemingly immortality of the romanticism of Jordan. It seems unshakable.

A better comparison would be Lebron as Ali and Jordan as Sugar Ray Robinson.

As great as he was, there were times Ali was  a pretty big underdog and had to overcome major obstacles (Liston and Foreman being the major examples) much like Lebron had to do with Golden State.   By contrast Sugar Ray Robinson was so dominant he WAS the obstacle that had to be overcome, just like Jordan.

As for the rings arguments yeah that I can agree never get that argument it is really not a good argument the begin with. If that is the case then might as well call Robert Horry the true GOAT.

It's not so much the rings as Jordan's performance In getting them. No one has ever owned the NBA Finals like Michael Jordan and his six Finals MVP's

Rings talk is a stupid argument. Jordan never did anything in the Finals more impressive than beating the 73 win Warriors three times in a row to come back down 3-1 for the title...

Jordan also never did anything as fail as choking against the Dallas Mavericks with 2 all stars by his side (including a Finals MVP)

May 30, 2018 8:16:19 GMT thereallt said:

May 30, 2018 3:50:38 GMT theend said:

A friend gave an interesting summary in the Jordan vs LeBron thing. He compared to Ali and Tyson. Giving them both place to exist. I think the difference is LeBron and Jordan feel closer in time line.

But my question is kind of just asking the seemingly immortality of the romanticism of Jordan. It seems unshakable.

A better comparison would be Lebron as Ali and Jordan as Sugar Ray Robinson.

As great as he was, there were times Ali was  a pretty big underdog and had to overcome major obstacles (Liston and Foreman being the major examples) much like Lebron had to do with Golden State.   By contrast Sugar Ray Robinson was so dominant he WAS the obstacle that had to be overcome, just like Jordan.

You just took that to a deeper level.  I just think people let Ali and Tyson both of being the greatest as they were perceived as the greatest of a generation or of a time.

When Lebron James can lead a pair of rabbits, a duck, a skunk, a cat, a bird and Jerry Seinfelds mailman to a victory over PED Aliens, then we can talk.

May 30, 2018 8:19:32 GMT thereallt said:

As for the rings arguments yeah that I can agree never get that argument it is really not a good argument the begin with. If that is the case then might as well call Robert Horry the true GOAT.

It's not so much the rings as Jordan's performance In getting them. No one has ever owned the NBA Finals like Michael Jordan and his six Finals MVP's

Rings talk is a stupid argument. Jordan never did anything in the Finals more impressive than beating the 73 win Warriors three times in a row to come back down 3-1 for the title...

Jordan also never did anything as fail as choking against the Dallas Mavericks with 2 all stars by his side (including a Finals MVP)

True, but for perspective at the same age Jordan hadn’t yet been to the Finals, had just lost for the second straight season to Detroit, and was throwing tantrums about every player on his team trying to get them all traded including the other All Star. Jordan was a considerably bigger brat than Lebron’s ever been, which is hard to imagine given the things we hear about Lebron these days.

May 30, 2018 13:21:13 GMT KING KID said:

When Lebron James can lead a pair of rabbits, a duck, a skunk, a cat, a bird and Jerry Seinfelds mailman to a victory over PED Aliens, then we can talk.

It’s about time someone brought some sense into this argument.

I’ll comment on a few personal details and leave it at that.

My main take away is this: as a kid, I was in love with basketball. And it was because of Michael Jordan. I watched every game from about 1990 onward. I even watched most of his games with the Wizards. I played the game despite being way too short and way too white. I bought the shoes and watched Space Jam a million times. My dad scored tickets to a Raptors/Bulls game in Chicago in 1997 and I still talk about it to this day and will talk about it until I die.

When he retired I didn’t stop watching, but I didn’t watch the same way. I decided to follow the Raptors, keep up with the Bulls, watch whatever games I could. And LeBron didn’t change that. I didn’t say “wow this guy is so good I have to watch every game.” I just didn’t care.

Is part of that me growing up? Maybe. But I still watch hockey and baseball as much as I did when I was a kid, maybe even more so. So why is basketball different?

Because Jordan made the game better. He made you want to watch to see what he was going to do next. Even a standard 30 pt game where Jordan barely does anything and sits the 4th quarter was still magical in a way. LeBron doesn’t have that, at least not in my opinion.

And the whole “taking my talents to South Beach” debacle didn’t help LeBron’s argument either. Lots of people still think he’s a total dick for not sticking with Cleveland. That probably sways a lot of opinion too.

...

I also want to say that theend ‘s argument makes sense in a way. The game has changed drastically since Jordan, so there is some weight to saying they can both exist in their own eras. A better comparison might be Wayne Gretzky and Sidney Crosby in the NHL. People argue about who was better all the time, but it’s impossible to compare. Watch an NHL game in 1985 where Gretzky put up 5 points compared to a game in 2017 when Crosby does the same. It’s night and day. I’m sure the same can be said between the early 90s and now.

And the whole “taking my talents to South Beach” debacle didn’t help LeBron’s argument either. Lots of people still think he’s a total dick for not sticking with Cleveland. That probably sways a lot of opinion too.

It wasn't so much that he left as that he made such a big production out of it. Most Cleveland fans had expected he was going to leave, but "The Decision" came off like he was rubbing their faces in it. Lebron himself has admitted that HOW he left Cleveland was a mistake.

That being said though, Lebron is one of the very few reasons I watch the NBA now. Whether he ever manages to surpass Jordan or not, you're still watching a historically great player in James, and those kind of athletes just don't come along very often.

I will be honest, I am not an NBA fan of the era. I was a Kings fan during the Peja, Vlade, Hido, Bobby Jackson, Mike Bibby era.   I didn't follow Jordan and I don't follow much now.



But I think Jordan is an enigma that people will just not be accepting of anyone being better. Just out of romanticism and nostalgia.  Like he is an identity or enigma even more than his true sports ability.  Like nothing anyone could ever do in our lifetime would shatter the image they have of the past.

To me this argument can slip into the "Greatest Player Ever" vs. "Most Talented/Gifted Player Ever" territory. I see it a lot in football, specifically around Aaron Rodgers being the "most gifted QB" in the league, but Brady owning the title of GOAT.

Yeah, but Aaron Rodgers isn’t on Lebrons level either. Rodgers has one ring, that’s it. Rodgers falls in a different category. He’s irrelevant in GOAT convos.

If TB12 had the same Super Bowl record as Lebron has Finals record, TB12 would be the LEBRON to Montana’s MJ. However, TB12 was able to lift himself above the allure and mythology that is Joe Montana and make himself the GOAT. Lebron can still do it if he wins 2-3 more rings (especially this seasons) and defeats Father Time. I don’t know if he can ever do it. He’ll be his own legend, but he won’t be the GOAT.

Football is a different bowl of wax all together. There are just too many factors to consider to really have a definitive GOAT candidate. A starting football line up is 11 men on both offense and defense, while in basketball a starting line up is only 5, so a single basketball player can have FAR more impact on the game than any single football player, even the QB. A QB can't do shit if the line doesn't block for him, his receivers don't catch the ball, or his defense doesn't get him the ball back in a timely manner. ANY one of those things go wrong and it can ruin a QB's day.

The thing I say a lot in this debate is that LeBron and Jordan played wildly different games. I don’t know what Lebron would’ve been if he played in the 90’s, nor what MJ would be now. A lot of times I think this debate comes down to which style of basketball you prefer as much as anything. I liked the 90’s style... until the 7 seconds or less Suns came along and changed how basketball is played into a more entertaining (to me) product.

I wonder how much of that weighs into my preference for Lebron because I think the league is wayyyyyyyyy better than it was in the 90’s.

My point to the football reference is to me, MJ is the GOAT, regardless of LeBron’s talent and potential. LJ has everything t be GOAT, but he isn’t.

May 30, 2018 21:56:09 GMT mikec said:

The thing I say a lot in this debate is that LeBron and Jordan played wildly different games. I don’t know what Lebron would’ve been if he played in the 90’s, nor what MJ would be now. A lot of times I think this debate comes down to which style of basketball you prefer as much as anything. I liked the 90’s style... until the 7 seconds or less Suns came along and changed how basketball is played into a more entertaining (to me) product.

I wonder how much of that weighs into my preference for Lebron because I think the league is wayyyyyyyyy better than it was in the 90’s.

The league is trash now with piss poor defence and lazy competition. LeBron would have shriveled and hid in a corner against Ewing and Oakley's Knicks in the 90's. Plus he wouldn't be allowed to sag off on defence and collect easy rebounds to pad his stats. People are sleeping on the Sonics and Blazers teams Jordan had to face as well. Tremendous talent with The Glove, Kemp, Drexler, Porter, Schrempf, Duckworth etc. at different times. Plus Jordan was excellent in extracting his revenge on a very talented 1995-96 Magic team that beat them out the year before. I would take those 90's Magic teams over today's Warriors let alone the Knicks, Blazers and Jazz as well.

I would have LeBron at around 6 on my list behind Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird and Wilt. Really it's also a struggle to put him ahead of the likes of Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan and Bill Russell as well

Lebron is better than Jordan...at assists and rebounds. Jordan has him all around though.

Also, Aaron Rogers is the most proficient QB of all time, he's absolutely in GOAT conversations. Rings aren't the only deciding factor, rings are a team achievement.

Jun 5, 2018 3:21:07 GMT Shootist said:

May 30, 2018 21:56:09 GMT mikec said:

The thing I say a lot in this debate is that LeBron and Jordan played wildly different games. I don’t know what Lebron would’ve been if he played in the 90’s, nor what MJ would be now. A lot of times I think this debate comes down to which style of basketball you prefer as much as anything. I liked the 90’s style... until the 7 seconds or less Suns came along and changed how basketball is played into a more entertaining (to me) product.

I wonder how much of that weighs into my preference for Lebron because I think the league is wayyyyyyyyy better than it was in the 90’s.

The league is trash now with piss poor defence and lazy competition. LeBron would have shriveled and hid in a corner against Ewing and Oakley's Knicks in the 90's. Plus he wouldn't be allowed to sag off on defence and collect easy rebounds to pad his stats. People are sleeping on the Sonics and Blazers teams Jordan had to face as well. Tremendous talent with The Glove, Kemp, Drexler, Porter, Schrempf, Duckworth etc. at different times. Plus Jordan was excellent in extracting his revenge on a very talented 1995-96 Magic team that beat them out the year before. I would take those 90's Magic teams over today's Warriors let alone the Knicks, Blazers and Jazz as well.

I would have LeBron at around 6 on my list behind Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird and Wilt. Really it's also a struggle to put him ahead of the likes of Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan and Bill Russell as well

I couldn't disagree more.   People WILDLY overstate how physical the 90's were while conveniently forgetting that Jordan didn't win a damn thing until the flagrant foul rule was instated.    Before that Jordan was consistently getting his ass kicked by both Boston and Detroit.    Not to mention Jordan benefiting from expansion diluting the NBA's overall talent pool

The idea that Lebron couldn't have played in the 90's is fucking laughable.   No zone defense?    Being allowed to hand check on defense?.   Both of those things would FAVOR Lebron's game.      If Scottie Pippen could throw down dunks on Ewing you bet  your ass Lebron would have been able to as well   

Jun 5, 2018 8:09:46 GMT RagnarokMike said:

Lebron is better than Jordan...at assists and rebounds. Jordan has him all around though.

Also, Aaron Rogers is the most proficient QB of all time, he's absolutely in GOAT conversations. Rings aren't the only deciding factor, rings are a team achievement.

Yeah, he’ll rank near Marino and Elway but he will never be in the convo of Montana/Brady.

My only problem with Rodgers is in the intangibles department. Simply put, he seems a little soft to me, he doesn't have the kind of mental or physical toughness of a Montana, Elway, or Brady.

Would’ve said the same about Elway until the last two seasons.

Jun 6, 2018 1:26:44 GMT KING KID said:

Jun 5, 2018 8:09:46 GMT RagnarokMike said:

Lebron is better than Jordan...at assists and rebounds. Jordan has him all around though.

Also, Aaron Rogers is the most proficient QB of all time, he's absolutely in GOAT conversations. Rings aren't the only deciding factor, rings are a team achievement.

Yeah, he’ll rank near Marino and Elway but he will never be in the convo of Montana/Brady.

As long as the conversation strictly "Who had the best Super Bowl runs?" If its a conversation on the greatest QB's, literally the most proficient QB ever has as good of an argument is any, looking solely at the individual and not team accomplishments. The Patriots and the Niners were just better all around. Only real knock on Rodgers is his injury history.

I get it. Aaron Rodgers is a badddddd man. 10 years from now, there’s no way that anyone says Aaron Rodgers is the GOAT. Not with what TB12 has done. Nobody is saying Peyton Manning is the GOAT and he was better then Aaron Rodgers.