Aug 3, 2019 16:01:51 GMT iNCY said:

I don't see people who commit suicide caring about the cop or the bus driver they jump in front of... I understand they're all messed up but I grew up and still have real fears about a close family member offing themselves.
To me suicide is the most selfish thing in the world

Why do people owe others? Others putting that burden on anyone seems just as selfish, no? Like, you have to stay alive regardless of your circumstances because I want you occasionally in my own life to some degree. What? How's that more fair?

Aug 3, 2019 19:42:46 GMT 🤯 said:

Aug 3, 2019 16:01:51 GMT iNCY said:

I don't see people who commit suicide caring about the cop or the bus driver they jump in front of... I understand they're all messed up but I grew up and still have real fears about a close family member offing themselves.
To me suicide is the most selfish thing in the world

Why do people owe others? Others putting that burden on anyone seems just as selfish, no? Like, you have to stay alive regardless of your circumstances because I want you occasionally in my own life to some degree. What? How's that more fair?

Which is why I'll never understand those that call it a selfish/cowardly act. Like to me killing yourself has got to be the bravest thing you could ever do.

Honestly suicide has always fascinated me. Even considered it right after high school but the unknown always kept me on the fence. Read stuff on Reddit and such and seems like a lot are waiting on parents to die to save them the pain. That's the most unselfish thing in the world.

Aug 3, 2019 19:52:34 GMT @ness said:

Aug 3, 2019 19:42:46 GMT 🤯 said:

Why do people owe others? Others putting that burden on anyone seems just as selfish, no? Like, you have to stay alive regardless of your circumstances because I want you occasionally in my own life to some degree. What? How's that more fair?

Which is why I'll never understand those that call it a selfish/cowardly act. Like to me killing yourself has got to be the bravest thing you could ever do.

Honestly suicide has always fascinated me. Even considered it right after high school but the unknown always kept me on the fence. Read stuff on Reddit and such and seems like a lot are waiting on parents to die to save them the pain. That's the most unselfish thing in the world.

That all said... Suicide by cop is still very selfish, even if also brave to some degree.

If you want to end it, more power to you. But only involve willing parties if you're going to involve others in your own demise.

Aug 3, 2019 19:52:34 GMT @ness said:

Aug 3, 2019 19:42:46 GMT 🤯 said:

Why do people owe others? Others putting that burden on anyone seems just as selfish, no? Like, you have to stay alive regardless of your circumstances because I want you occasionally in my own life to some degree. What? How's that more fair?

Which is why I'll never understand those that call it a selfish/cowardly act. Like to me killing yourself has got to be the bravest thing you could ever do.

Honestly suicide has always fascinated me. Even considered it right after high school but the unknown always kept me on the fence. Read stuff on Reddit and such and seems like a lot are waiting on parents to die to save them the pain. That's the most unselfish thing in the world.

I don't think I have ever read such a massive load of crap on here before. 
There is NOTHING courageous about quitting and giving up. 

If your life holds no joy then direct your energies and life into serving others. 
I sympathise with mental disease and have had more than a few brushes with it in my life... But to take your own life is to spit in the face of anyone who cares about you. 

All I know, it's a dick move, bad enough you have to hurt those that love you, but the mind is a fairly easy thing to fracture, so I get it...but to also bring in someone who has absolutely nothing to do with you, and put it on their conscience as well, possibly fracturing another family with tragedy, that's beyond selfish. If you're good with dying, do it your damn self, easier ways than getting shot or jumping into traffic.

selfish need not be an inherently negative word. end of the day it is all you.

Aug 4, 2019 8:12:19 GMT theend said:

selfish need not be an inherently negative word. end of the day it is all you.

If what you said is true, it's time to put up the closed sign for Western Civilization and welcome whoever is going to rise to take our place.

Aug 4, 2019 16:24:36 GMT iNCY said:

Aug 4, 2019 8:12:19 GMT theend said:

selfish need not be an inherently negative word. end of the day it is all you.

If what you said is true, it's time to put up the closed sign for Western Civilization and welcome whoever is going to rise to take our place.

Speaking of Western Civilization, whoever said it was our way or the highway? I feel like cultural bias clearly impact stances toward suicide. That monk who self-immolated in Vietnam doesn't strike me as a selfish suicide. And I bet he gave fuck all about Western Civilization's "superiority".

Aug 4, 2019 17:42:14 GMT 🤯 said:

Aug 4, 2019 16:24:36 GMT iNCY said:

If what you said is true, it's time to put up the closed sign for Western Civilization and welcome whoever is going to rise to take our place.

Speaking of Western Civilization, whoever said it was our way or the highway? I feel like cultural bias clearly impact stances toward suicide. That monk who self-immolated in Vietnam doesn't strike me as a selfish suicide. And I bet he gave fuck all about Western Civilization's "superiority".

Believing in  reincarnation would obviously skew your ideals on death, as do all beliefs or lack of beliefs. 

Here's an interesting question and I don't mean it as an argument for religion, but without a religious belief, how does a society decide what is moral? 

This kind of reminds of an old conversation of whether or not you could ever truly be altruistic. Because no matter what you still are doing it for some value of yourself. Selfish is inherent as it pleases you.

Aug 4, 2019 18:35:22 GMT iNCY said:

Aug 4, 2019 17:42:14 GMT 🤯 said:

Speaking of Western Civilization, whoever said it was our way or the highway? I feel like cultural bias clearly impact stances toward suicide. That monk who self-immolated in Vietnam doesn't strike me as a selfish suicide. And I bet he gave fuck all about Western Civilization's "superiority".

Believing in  reincarnation would obviously skew your ideals on death, as do all beliefs or lack of beliefs. 

Here's an interesting question and I don't mean it as an argument for religion, but without a religious belief, how does a society decide what is moral? 

Good question. I presume morals can exist without religion, but what do I know? Maybe the ancient consensus building to try to establish some of the original core morals are what led to the birth of religion?

Aug 3, 2019 21:44:46 GMT 🤯 said:

Aug 3, 2019 19:52:34 GMT @ness said:

Which is why I'll never understand those that call it a selfish/cowardly act. Like to me killing yourself has got to be the bravest thing you could ever do.

Honestly suicide has always fascinated me. Even considered it right after high school but the unknown always kept me on the fence. Read stuff on Reddit and such and seems like a lot are waiting on parents to die to save them the pain. That's the most unselfish thing in the world.

That all said... Suicide by cop is still very selfish, even if also brave to some degree.

If you want to end it, more power to you. But only involve willing parties if you're going to involve others in your own demise.

I can see that. I was once discussing this type of thing with a super religious guy I once worked with and we got on the topic of free will, which is usually his go-to whenever anyone asks him why God allows shitty things to happen to good people. He brought up a good point about why suicide is wrong because if you tried to drown yourself more than likely your body's instincts will take over. I guess that's why using the cop method may be an option for some. They either don't have the guts or something stops them from truly going through with it, so put it outta your hands by letting someone else do it. It is selfish though since you could be causing a lot of pain/ptsd to the one who has to put you down.

Maybe this wouldn't be the case if there were medical options. I dunno, I just think someone should be allowed to end their lives if they so choose. I do understand that depression is a tricky situation and isn't simply someone is sad, so I don't think it should be simple like ordering a pizza or swiping on tinder. But they're gonna do it if they're gonna do it, so I'd rather it be done in a hospital bed rather than from a clock tower.

There's a bit Doug Stanhope does on the subject and it really connected with me when I first heard it. If a movie has sucked half-way through odds are it's not gonna get better towards the end to make it worthwhile, so he doesn't fault anyone for checking out early.

Aug 2, 2019 20:01:36 GMT KING KID said:

Aug 2, 2019 19:56:32 GMT 🤯 said:

So I've just got to suffer through? I get no say in how to handle my exit. Unless I take things into my own hands?

I mean; yeah. WTF?

You really think people should have the right to decide they want to die by lethal injection because they're terminally ill? That's stupid. I don't think you believe it. I think you're fucking with me.

Let's say one were to draw the short straw and end up with ALS:

In ALS, both the upper motor neurons and the lower motor neurons degenerate or die, and stop sending messages to the muscles. Unable to function, the muscles gradually weaken, start to twitch (called fasciculations), and waste away (atrophy). Eventually, the brain loses its ability to initiate and control voluntary movements.

Early symptoms of ALS usually include muscle weakness or stiffness. Gradually all muscles under voluntary control are affected, and individuals lose their strength and the ability to speak, eat, move, and even breathe.

Most people with ALS die from respiratory failure, usually within 3 to 5 years from when the symptoms first appear. However, about 10 percent of people with ALS survive for 10 or more years.

No treatment. The best doctors can do is slow the decline, your inevitable fate is to be a prisoner of your body -- unable to move, unable to speak, eating through a tube because you no longer have the ability to swallow, another tube to pump oxygen into your heart because you can't breathe anymore.

You really going to side-eye someone for NOPEing out of that and checking out early?

Aug 5, 2019 20:10:10 GMT @ness said:

Aug 3, 2019 21:44:46 GMT 🤯 said:

That all said... Suicide by cop is still very selfish, even if also brave to some degree.

If you want to end it, more power to you. But only involve willing parties if you're going to involve others in your own demise.

I can see that. I was once discussing this type of thing with a super religious guy I once worked with and we got on the topic of free will, which is usually his go-to whenever anyone asks him why God allows shitty things to happen to good people. He brought up a good point about why suicide is wrong because if you tried to drown yourself more than likely your body's instincts will take over. I guess that's why using the cop method may be an option for some. They either don't have the guts or something stops them from truly going through with it, so put it outta your hands by letting someone else do it. It is selfish though since you could be causing a lot of pain/ptsd to the one who has to put you down.

Maybe this wouldn't be the case if there were medical options. I dunno, I just think someone should be allowed to end their lives if they so choose. I do understand that depression is a tricky situation and isn't simply someone is sad, so I don't think it should be simple like ordering a pizza or swiping on tinder. But they're gonna do it if they're gonna do it, so I'd rather it be done in a hospital bed rather than from a clock tower.

There's a bit Doug Stanhope does on the subject and it really connected with me when I first heard it. If a movie has sucked half-way through odds are it's not gonna get better towards the end to make it worthwhile, so he doesn't fault anyone for checking out early.

This is why I ask about the source of morality in a post-religious world.
Who should decide what is moral? The people by voting? Doctors? Lawyers? Ethicists?
Morality is what enables our society to function and it is not perfect, but the "common good" being more important than the individual good is why society works.
It seems so simple to grant somebody old or depressed the right to die, but what does it do to society?
Do we start looking at people as burdens and call them selfish for not ending their lives?
Do we look at our parents in old peoples homes and perceive them to have no value and be a waste of resources?

I generally like the "slipper slope" argument as it invites straw men.
In this case I think it is real.
I can completely see someone with terminal cancer or ALS wanting to end their life on their terms, I have neither the energy or the desire to criticise their decision, but where does it take us as a society?

I watched my father wither away from Cancer. His last week I didn’t even recognize him, he couldn’t talk nor was he coherent. Every day I prayed that that would be the day he passed because all I could think of was how my dad would hate being like this. We don’t even do that to animals. They start to go downhill, we give them a shot and put them out if their misery, but not our loved ones. I hate that my final memories of my dad are him looking like he was a Prisoner in a concentration camp and that I was helpless to do anything to help him. So yeah I believe heavily in euthanasia for terminal cases.

Aug 6, 2019 5:52:24 GMT iron maiden said:

I watched my father wither away from Cancer. His last week I didn’t even recognize him, he couldn’t talk nor was he coherent. Every day I prayed that that would be the day he passed because all I could think of was how my dad would hate being like this. We don’t even do that to animals. They start to go downhill, we give them a shot and put them out if their misery, but not our loved ones. I hate that my final memories of my dad are him looking like he was a Prisoner in a concentration camp and that I was helpless to do anything to help him. So yeah I believe heavily in euthanasia for terminal cases.

This exactly. We extend the merciful courtesy to our pets and animals, but not ourselves? Seems silly inconsistent.

Aug 4, 2019 6:24:35 GMT RagnarokMike said:

All I know, it's a dick move, bad enough you have to hurt those that love you, but the mind is a fairly easy thing to fracture, so I get it...but to also bring in someone who has absolutely nothing to do with you, and put it on their conscience as well, possibly fracturing another family with tragedy, that's beyond selfish. If you're good with dying, do it your damn self, easier ways than getting shot or jumping into traffic.

Pretty much how I see it.  Suicide by cop or jumping into traffic is a cowardly act anyway you slice it.   If you want to knock yourself off that's one thing, but don't put that burden on a total stranger.


Euthanasia for terminally ill patients on the other hand I 100% support.   If the doctor says there is no more hope, why continue to fight and suffer?  Why make your family watch you waste away?  Better to get it over with and let your family grieve and move on IMO.   

Yeah, I'm good with mercy suicide. No reason a person who's all but guaranteed to die should be forced to suffer endless agony for nothing, if a person is WILLING to take that responsibility upon themselves, then you don't need to take that burden on top of everything.