What is the difference between Patriotism vs Nationalism?  Is there a difference?

www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/patriotism-vs-nationalism

Two thoughts:

 - Patriotism is love for your country, warts and all. Nationalism is love for your country WHICH IS BETTER THAN ALL OTHERS AND I WILL FIGHT YOU IF YOU SAY OTHERWISE.

 - Nationalism has a very nasty undercurrent of 'this is my country and other people have to leave.'

Aug 6, 2019 0:15:56 GMT Michinokudriver said:

'this is my country and other people have to leave.'

It’s Captain America v Adolf Hilter. Couldn’t be any simpler.

I can’t really see how you can love your country without being a nationalist.

When your countries traditions, culture and language become stripped away..what are you patriotic about? The name?

Aug 6, 2019 16:16:42 GMT System said:

I can’t really see how you can love your country without being a nationalist.

When your countries traditions, culture and language become stripped away..what are you patriotic about? The name?

Traditions are specific to groups of people. There’s literally no tradition I can think of in a America that is going away to the point those it’s important to can’t still do it.

America has never had a national language. Ever. We’re supposed to be a melting pot of cultures because everyone here came from somewhere else a very short time ago (in the context of world history).

This isn’t new though. Americans treated the Irish when they immigrated this way. They treated the Italians. Now it’s brown people of all origins. And again, the white people on this continent literally invaded and took the land from the indigenous people. We’re still as hypocritical as it gets.

That said ... I’ve never been a “patriotic” guy in general, because I see so much wrong with the way this country works. The National Anthem; the Flag ... they don’t do much for me. We’re the most powerful, richest nation in the world, and yet we’re so flawed we’ve yet to come close to our potential.

I don't love my country, Australian are stupid and lazy both indigenous and us white invaders.
That being said, it is about the best country in the world to live in.

I don't like our National Identity particularly but can see no good happening from bringing refugees who grew up in a war zone and dumping them in the middle of suburbia and thinking that they will thrive and enrich our "culture".
It's weird, people repeat endlessly that multi-culturism makes society better, but says who?
I mean I love the enrichment in take out food establishments, but who says that ethnic diversity makes countries better?
Japan isn't very diverse, they don't seem bothered by it.

Aug 7, 2019 5:35:19 GMT iNCY said:

I don't love my country, Australian are stupid and lazy both indigenous and us white invaders.
That being said, it is about the best country in the world to live in.

I don't like our National Identity particularly but can see no good happening from bringing refugees who grew up in a war zone and dumping them in the middle of suburbia and thinking that they will thrive and enrich our "culture".
It's weird, people repeat endlessly that multi-culturism makes society better, but says who?
I mean I love the enrichment in take out food establishments, but who says that ethnic diversity makes countries better?
Japan isn't very diverse, they don't seem bothered by it.

Having visited Japan earlier this year, I can vouch both for the lack of diversity and also how fucking dope it is. Felt like America could learn a lot culturally from Japan: respect, service, modesty, cleanliness, etc.

Japan is an interesting case, there's highs but also a ton of lows. For one, their distrust of foreigners and their low birth rate is REALLY catching up to them; they're trying to get Japanese Brazilians to return back to the homeland but after seeing how many of them are treated as second-class citizens (economy is down, half-breeds GTFO), many are choosing to stay in Brazil instead. Their nationalism is choking them out right now.

Aug 6, 2019 16:16:42 GMT System said:

I can’t really see how you can love your country without being a nationalist.

When your countries traditions, culture and language become stripped away..what are you patriotic about? The name?

The ideals? Give me your tired, your poor, our huddled masses yearning to breathe free? Rags to riches stories? None of that has much to do particularly with the color of your skin or what language you speak.

The tribalism of certain people on this board gives me the impression they'd prefer the country be segmented out literally by race and country of origin. All black Americans in X states; all white Americans in Y states; etc.

Aug 8, 2019 20:56:21 GMT KJ said:

The tribalism of certain people on this board gives me the impression they'd prefer the country be segmented out literally by race and country of origin. All black Americans in X states; all white Americans in Y states; etc.

Aug 6, 2019 16:16:42 GMT System said:

I can’t really see how you can love your country without being a nationalist.

When your countries traditions, culture and language become stripped away..what are you patriotic about? The name?

Because a nationalist loves ONLY their country, all other countries (and their populace) be damned; where a patriot may love their country unquestionably the most, but can still support the rest of the world despite it. 

It's like, this person will absolutely only eat apple pie, they won't dare touch any pie other than apple; where that person's favorite pie is apple, but they're not against eating other sorts of pie.

Nationalism ain't much different to bragging about being white, or tall, or having blue eyes and a massive ePenis.

I tick all of those boxes, but look how humble I am!

My point is why be proud of something you did nothing to attain?

Aug 11, 2019 11:59:58 GMT iNCY said:

Nationalism ain't much different to bragging about being white, or tall, or having blue eyes and a massive ePenis.

I tick all of those boxes, but look how humble I am!

My point is why be proud of something you did nothing to attain?

My exact thoughts to every redneck that says black people are inferior because “we” built this country.

You didn’t do shit, Cletus.

Aug 12, 2019 0:07:03 GMT KJ said:

Aug 11, 2019 11:59:58 GMT iNCY said:

Nationalism ain't much different to bragging about being white, or tall, or having blue eyes and a massive ePenis.

I tick all of those boxes, but look how humble I am!

My point is why be proud of something you did nothing to attain?

My exact thoughts to every redneck that says black people are inferior because “we” built this country.

You didn’t do shit, Cletus.

Even that argument makes no sense on it's face.   Last I checked a pretty good chunk of the country was built by slave labor.

Aug 12, 2019 0:08:25 GMT thereallt said:

Aug 12, 2019 0:07:03 GMT KJ said:

My exact thoughts to every redneck that says black people are inferior because “we” built this country.

You didn’t do shit, Cletus.

Even that argument makes no sense on it's face.   Last I checked a pretty good chunk of the country was built by slave labor.

Right?

Stupid hicks are gonna hick.

Aug 12, 2019 0:07:03 GMT KJ said:

Aug 11, 2019 11:59:58 GMT iNCY said:

Nationalism ain't much different to bragging about being white, or tall, or having blue eyes and a massive ePenis.

I tick all of those boxes, but look how humble I am!

My point is why be proud of something you did nothing to attain?

My exact thoughts to every redneck that says black people are inferior because “we” built this country.

You didn’t do shit, Cletus.

Obligatory:

Modern nationalism looks at the nazies for inspiration. The American Nationalist Party is being created around the belief that the Tea Party needs to become intolerant of opposing ideas and oppose both supreme court rulings and acts of congress they do not agree with.

Aug 12, 2019 0:19:00 GMT c said:

Modern nationalism looks at the nazies for inspiration. The American Nationalist Party is being created around the belief that the Tea Party needs to become intolerant of opposing ideas and oppose both supreme court rulings and acts of congress they do not agree with.

Ironically the far-left and the far-right are both fascists.

I don't know about the USA, but in Australia it is definitely the left that is pushing people further to the right.
Our Labor party, which is a workers party is more concerned with gender identity and social reform than it is about the rights of the worker.
Try and have a discussion here about immigration, people literally and I mean literally scream racist until you stop talking and then they claim they one the argument.

I have traveled to a fair chunk of the world and my take that makes me a "racist fascist" is that multiculturalism doesn't work.
In Australia it worked with the Greeks and the Italians mixing with our Anglo-Saxon society as for the most part the belief structure was the same.
Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist... Whether or not you believe all of those people had a society shaped by the same teachings.

All of a sudden we are bringing in Muslims, and some of them go to Muslim schools and their women wear the Hijab in public.
Guess what? People don't like the idea of an underclass in our society, girls pulled out of school and put into arranged marriages.
We don't like seeing some fat Middle Eastern guy lying on the beach in the middle of summer while his wife next to him is covered head to toe.
But we cannot say anything because it is intolerant and we are a secular society....
Except we are not a secular society, we may not believe in God, but our culture is shaped by the teachings of Jesus and we should place basic expectations on adapting to that for our immigrants.
You don't have to accept our ways, but you don't have to live here.

As a Christian I would defund all faith based schools and demand the integration of children of all faiths.
In my day, the Vietnamese were looked down on for being criminals, but their kids went to school with the aussies and learnt how to kick a football.
One generation later, fully integrated.

What chapter of the gospels did Jesus preach intolerance of thy neighbor? And the word you want is conform not integrate. Integration blends two things. Sounds like you want Islam removed from Australia. Have you considered that people are screaming racist as you are being racist in your views on Muslims?

Aug 12, 2019 1:15:17 GMT c said:

What chapter of the gospels did Jesus preach intolerance of thy neighbor? And the word you want is conform not integrate. Integration blends two things. Sounds like you want Islam removed from Australia. Have you considered that people are screaming racist as you are being racist in your views on Muslims?

This sounds like the typical views of the left without understanding the phrasing of the discussion.


Do you think that someone born into Australia or brought into Australia as a child should have no say in the direction of their life?
Are you comfortable for these girls to be barred from University and forced into arranged marriages?
They cannot go to the police if their is domestic violence as it shames the family, is this okay?

The truth of the matter is that no nation is secular, it may be in its religion but not in its ethics.

I believe we have the right to maintain that all immigrants into a country abide by a particular set of ethics that contribute to the identity of the country, is that unreasonable?

Aug 12, 2019 0:47:33 GMT iNCY said:

Aug 12, 2019 0:19:00 GMT c said:

Modern nationalism looks at the nazies for inspiration. The American Nationalist Party is being created around the belief that the Tea Party needs to become intolerant of opposing ideas and oppose both supreme court rulings and acts of congress they do not agree with.

Ironically the far-left and the far-right are both fascists.

I don't know about the USA, but in Australia it is definitely the left that is pushing people further to the right.
Our Labor party, which is a workers party is more concerned with gender identity and social reform than it is about the rights of the worker.
Try and have a discussion here about immigration, people literally and I mean literally scream racist until you stop talking and then they claim they one the argument.

I have traveled to a fair chunk of the world and my take that makes me a "racist fascist" is that multiculturalism doesn't work.
In Australia it worked with the Greeks and the Italians mixing with our Anglo-Saxon society as for the most part the belief structure was the same.
Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist... Whether or not you believe all of those people had a society shaped by the same teachings.

All of a sudden we are bringing in Muslims, and some of them go to Muslim schools and their women wear the Hijab in public.
Guess what? People don't like the idea of an underclass in our society, girls pulled out of school and put into arranged marriages.
We don't like seeing some fat Middle Eastern guy lying on the beach in the middle of summer while his wife next to him is covered head to toe.
But we cannot say anything because it is intolerant and we are a secular society....
Except we are not a secular society, we may not believe in God, but our culture is shaped by the teachings of Jesus and we should place basic expectations on adapting to that for our immigrants.
You don't have to accept our ways, but you don't have to live here.

As a Christian I would defund all faith based schools and demand the integration of children of all faiths.
In my day, the Vietnamese were looked down on for being criminals, but their kids went to school with the aussies and learnt how to kick a football.
One generation later, fully integrated.

The thing that gets me about this is that --

I'm ethnically East Asian/Oriental (not sure which term Aussies use) and the same things were said about us back in the day. And even now, to an extent.

There's no common linguistic ancestor, they can't speak our language.

Their culture is too different, they can't assimilate. Asian culture and European society are just too different.

"Immigrants: They get the job done" NYT tweet about an American-born figure skater written in the year of our Lord 2018 as a friendly reminder that no matter what we do we, now and forever, will always be considered foreigners. Nearly a repeat of when it happened in 1998.

And the other thing is that -- while I can't speak for Australia history, this sentiment was repeated over and over and over and OVER again throughout American history. "Irish need not apply" (for jobs) was absolutely a thing, and it wasn't until Irish people had proven they could successfully slot into American society that American society, somewhat embarrassed by its racism, downplayed its own history and said that no one had ever felt that way and it was maybe only one or two shops in the history of ever that discriminated against the Irish but we as a country knew all along that these people were fine. Then immediately did the same thing to Italians. Or maybe it was the Polish. Coulda been Romanian Gypsies? But it's happened to pretty much every country/ethnicity so far and I'm not ready to believe Muslims are the THIS TIME WE MEAN IT FOR SURE unassimilate-able.

TL, DR: You just said your countrymen thought the same thing of the Vietnamese and were completely, utterly wrong. We as Americans thought the same of the Irish and we were wrong. And thought the same of the Italians and we were wrong. How can one be so sure this time about Muslims?

Aug 12, 2019 2:41:19 GMT Michinokudriver said:

Aug 12, 2019 0:47:33 GMT iNCY said:

Ironically the far-left and the far-right are both fascists.

I don't know about the USA, but in Australia it is definitely the left that is pushing people further to the right.
Our Labor party, which is a workers party is more concerned with gender identity and social reform than it is about the rights of the worker.
Try and have a discussion here about immigration, people literally and I mean literally scream racist until you stop talking and then they claim they one the argument.

I have traveled to a fair chunk of the world and my take that makes me a "racist fascist" is that multiculturalism doesn't work.
In Australia it worked with the Greeks and the Italians mixing with our Anglo-Saxon society as for the most part the belief structure was the same.
Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist... Whether or not you believe all of those people had a society shaped by the same teachings.

All of a sudden we are bringing in Muslims, and some of them go to Muslim schools and their women wear the Hijab in public.
Guess what? People don't like the idea of an underclass in our society, girls pulled out of school and put into arranged marriages.
We don't like seeing some fat Middle Eastern guy lying on the beach in the middle of summer while his wife next to him is covered head to toe.
But we cannot say anything because it is intolerant and we are a secular society....
Except we are not a secular society, we may not believe in God, but our culture is shaped by the teachings of Jesus and we should place basic expectations on adapting to that for our immigrants.
You don't have to accept our ways, but you don't have to live here.

As a Christian I would defund all faith based schools and demand the integration of children of all faiths.
In my day, the Vietnamese were looked down on for being criminals, but their kids went to school with the aussies and learnt how to kick a football.
One generation later, fully integrated.

The thing that gets me about this is that --

I'm ethnically East Asian/Oriental (not sure which term Aussies use) and the same things were said about us back in the day. And even now, to an extent.

There's no common linguistic ancestor, they can't speak our language.

Their culture is too different, they can't assimilate. Asian culture and European society are just too different.

"Immigrants: They get the job done" NYT tweet about an American-born figure skater written in the year of our Lord 2018 as a friendly reminder that no matter what we do we, now and forever, will always be considered foreigners. Nearly a repeat of when it happened in 1998.

And the other thing is that -- while I can't speak for Australia history, this sentiment was repeated over and over and over and OVER again throughout American history. "Irish need not apply" (for jobs) was absolutely a thing, and it wasn't until Irish people had proven they could successfully slot into American society that American society, somewhat embarrassed by its racism, downplayed its own history and said that no one had ever felt that way and it was maybe only one or two shops in the history of ever that discriminated against the Irish but we as a country knew all along that these people were fine. Then immediately did the same thing to Italians. Or maybe it was the Polish. Coulda been Romanian Gypsies? But it's happened to pretty much every country/ethnicity so far and I'm not ready to believe Muslims are the THIS TIME WE MEAN IT FOR SURE unassimilate-able.

TL, DR: You just said your countrymen thought the same thing of the Vietnamese and were completely, utterly wrong. We as Americans thought the same of the Irish and we were wrong. And thought the same of the Italians and we were wrong. How can one be so sure this time about Muslims?

As I stated, the difference is integration.
When everyone's kids go to school together the next generation becomes integrated.
Now we have all Muslim immigration to suburbs that contain mosques, the wives shop at Halaal butchers and their children attend Muslim schools where they are indoctrinated.
Not all Muslims are like this, some are mild and completely open to integrating.
Others want to live their old life in their new country, but their old country was crap, why make this one the same?

Fun fact is that a number of the terrorist attacks occurring in Australia are through second generation immigrant families of Muslim descent.
If there is something we can do to integrate the communities better, I am all for it.

I don't know about the USA, but in Australia it is definitely the left that is pushing people further to the right.
Our Labor party, which is a workers party is more concerned with gender identity and social reform than it is about the rights of the worker.
Try and have a discussion here about immigration, people literally and I mean literally scream racist until you stop talking and then they claim they one the argument.

It's the exact same in the US. Hell our press even refuses to use the phrase "illegal immigration" They lump illegals in with immigrants that actually come here legally, which to me is bullshit.

You know what would help Australia's rising terrorism problem stemming from non-integrating immigrants?

Free guns for every law-abiding citizen!

I will add that most of the Iranians I have met are pretty cool.
Also no problem with the fake muslims: Bosnians and Albanians.

Aug 12, 2019 12:18:57 GMT 🤯 said:

You know what would help Australia's rising terrorism problem stemming from non-integrating immigrants?

Free guns for every law-abiding citizen!

As long as the good guys have guns we are safe.

Nationalism is the belief that historical ties and similarities between communities (language, proximity, cultural traditions and institutions, etc) ought to form the basis for sovereignty and the borders of the state. This should be understood in contrast to the opinions of Medieval Europe's aristocracy that saw the countries of Europe only as dynastic possessions of various families. It differs from patriotism in that it is a political position rather than a character trait.

Nationalism should not be conflated with fascism. The historical fascists essentially sought to subordinate all individual activity to the perceived benefit of the nation, and eliminate segments of society deemed incompatible with the welfare of the state. The fascists however, should not occupy much of our thoughts regarding contemporary politics.

I don't think the nature of nationalism has really changed, what changed was the assumption of elites that nationalism represented natural boundaries that market forces had to operate within. Rather than a resurgence of fascism, I think what we're seeing today is a delayed reaction to the perceived encroachment of market forces on popular sovereignty in the West. I think it'll be a bitter struggle, but I think the US lacks the necessary social fault lines to erupt into an actual civil war.

Aug 12, 2019 12:18:57 GMT 🤯 said:

You know what would help Australia's rising terrorism problem stemming from non-integrating immigrants?

Free guns for every law-abiding citizen!

Guns for some, miniature Australian flags for others!