I'll just preface this by saying that I don't watch Japanese wrestling and I will not. Not because I don't respect it, because in some ways I respect it more than any other wrestling in the world. But because I just don't have the time to add it to my life especially with the Wednesday night war starting in two weeks and WWE finally trying after 10 years.

I've seen All In, and all of the AEW events, plus some of BTE, and I just don't get Kenny Omega. Can someone explain it to me? It doesn't pass for me that he's a great worker, which I don't doubt that he is, because we live in a time where everyone is a good worker. His character is just so odd. He looks and wrestles like a performer, not a wrestler or a fighter. And I don't want to sound like Jim Cornette but really, in order to be the best wrestler in the world you need to be convincing in your actions. John Cena had worse execution than Hogan but you believed he had to win every match he ever took part in.

But rather than continue to criticise, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts. I know there are a lot of wrestling fans here with great tastes who don't like silly bollocks and who love Kenny Omega. What am I not getting?

I don't think you're far off, or I'm also not getting it. All I see is a great in ring performer. Even at the last aew PPV the commentators were referring to him as a top match machine, or something to that effect.

Character wise, he seems to be really into cosplay stuff, but that doesn't hot the mark to me. I think it was fyter fest where omega and the bucks sent the preshow looking for costumes. All I'm getting for characters from omega and the bucks is they are some sort of anime/video game nerds. Ige only been watching new Japan for a couple years now, and have watched the bucks in Roh as well in that same time. I haven't really seen any of the bte episodes.

That's really a long winded way of saying I'm in the same boat as you. At least the bucks have a rivalry with the lucha bros. AMD maybe omega is getting some sort of story with his aew losing streak

Kenny Omega is in my avatar - so I clearly am a fan. However, lots of what you say Todd, deeply resonates with me. As a character I next to never buy into him. His entrances, promos, even his ring-gear always felt very distracting to me. I'm not into video games or cosplay - so he just looks like a massive nerd much of the time to me. I appreciate that that's a huge part of why he's so popular and have just accepted that character wise he just isn't ever going to be for me. I always wonder how he will connect on a bigger scale in the US if he doesn't adapt a bit. I think in AEW Kenny's story is actually really interesting as the elite level star who just isn't clicking in a new environment. The problem with it is it's a bad way to introduce him to a new audience and he just doesn't feel like a big deal. The Fyter Fest show in particular was pure fan service that just made them all look silly.

He is great in the ring though. I mean, there are the same issues with Kenny that there are with nearly all of today's top guys - over-use of false finishes etc. - but his matches with Okada and Ibushi in NJPW are amongst the best matches I've ever seen. But that's because in those matches the stories were very clearly defined and he was at his most serious. You could almost forget that you were watching the best-bout machine and it felt like you were watching this guy Kenny who was desperate to win. I actually think six months in NXT would make him so good as he learnt from the likes of Regal and HBK.

I love Omega but he seems to be best suited for Japan.

I'll preface the following by saying I generally don't like silly bollocks in wrestling, and I think Kenny Omega is an amazing wrestler. He was one of my favourites in NJPW and consistently delivered in big match situations.

The problem with Kenny Omega is that he is too creative for his own good, and unable to resist his creative urges. It's part of his personality, which goes back all the way to his early years in DDT. You could argue that it is a trait of the best, most innovative, artists, but it's also off-putting and frustrating for many fans. People say Vince Russo is a great booker as long as there's someone on the same level of authority to keep his ideas in check and restraint him accordingly. I see Kenny Omega as the wrestling equivalent of that. When Kenny Omega is given free reign, he's inclined to do stuff like this:



Sorry for the annoying video, but that's the best I could find to illustrate the goofiest moments of that match. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed that match and liked the comedy, but it's not the most appropriate wrestling for the G1 Climax, the most important tournament in pro-wrestling today. Yano is known for his goofy comedy matches, but that match was an order of magnitude sillier than Yano's typical match, and it's far outside of Omega's NJPW character, clearly exposing the business in a country that still takes its pro-wrestling relatively seriously.

EDIT - PB said he did something very silly at Fyter Fest too, akin to the above. Perhaps that's a better example of "Kenny Omega unleashed".

However, when Kenny isn't in full-on creative mode, and gets serious, he's absolutely one of the best in the world. I could name countless amazing Kenny Omega matches from NJPW, and his nickname of "Best Bout Machine" was legitimately earned. He does everything well in the ring, but I believe his strongest asset is his offense. The V-Trigger (bicycle knee kick) is the most devastating strike in pro-wrestling today and can be executed in many situations. The One Winged Angel is one of the best modern finishers. I could go on. His execution is near flawless and he has excellent conditioning. His psychology and storytelling is fantastic as well, which can be most clearly seen in his famous series of matches with Okada. Personally I never had the issue that he doesn't come across like a fighter, although I can kind of see it, sometimes he overperforms his selling and facial expressions.

As far as his recent work goes, his match with Jericho was a bit of a dud, but the Pac match was phenomenal, had great psychology right from the start.

I see Kenny as definitely one of the most aclaimed and consistent high tier wrestlers in the world (not the WWE Universe, of course), who is also a huge fucking dork, and I appreciate how those two aspects of him are not at odds with each other.

Wrestling is not real, it's a show, and so I am inherently more attracted to whatever characters embrace that as fully as possible instead of being ashamed and hiding behind a 13 year'old's idea of what "maturity" is.

The AEW story and references are certainly too gratuitous if you are an outsider looking in, but to be honest I find that refreshing, if I wanted another promotion trying to "be serious" about getting those mythical mainstream fans (aka WWE fans that just want more WWE by another name), well, I'd watch WWE again instead.

For the record, I love Omega's cosplaying and I'm actually surprised there's so much backlash. I rarely see Triple H get shit for his ridiculous OTT Wrestlemania entrances, yet Omega gets criticism for such entrances as his amazing WK11 entrance?

Omega is a tad over the top for a top star. I think his stock will probably continue to fall as more people watch him on TNT. And I didn't watch NJPW much but I am guessing they tone down his creative to prevent him from seeming to goofy while AEW is just giving him free reign to do what ever. He seems like a cool guy personality wise from the Elite vs. New Day SFV feud. But best in the world I am not seeing.

Also I think the One Winged Angel is one of the most convoluted moves in wrestling today. The amount of setup it takes is ridiculous.

Sept 18, 2019 19:29:50 GMT nazzer said:

I don't think you're far off, or I'm also not getting it. All I see is a great in ring performer. Even at the last aew PPV the commentators were referring to him as a top match machine, or something to that effect.

I hear ya. Maybe this is for a different thread but this presentation of wrestlers as 'great workers' just completely takes me out of it. In Omega's defence, he is in the majority on this so maybe I'm just an old fart who's let the time pass him by.

Character wise, he seems to be really into cosplay stuff, but that doesn't hot the mark to me. I think it was fyter fest where omega and the bucks sent the preshow looking for costumes. All I'm getting for characters from omega and the bucks is they are some sort of anime/video game nerds. Ige only been watching new Japan for a couple years now, and have watched the bucks in Roh as well in that same time. I haven't really seen any of the bte episodes.

It just seems unbearably corny. I'm supposed to believe Vince offered millions to this guy to sign him? He wouldn't have the first clue what to do with him. He'd be Tyler fucking Breeze. Note - this is entirely a knock on Vince and not Omega.

The character isn't for me and it screams middle of the card. Is this really a guy that people feel is a superstar? Cosplayer is a good way to put it.

That's really a long winded way of saying I'm in the same boat as you. At least the bucks have a rivalry with the lucha bros. AMD maybe omega is getting some sort of story with his aew losing streak

Oh the Young Bucks are completely intolerable. I have to change the channel. Rockers wannabes with half the talent and an even lesser proportion of the charisma. Omega doesn't do that to me. I want to like him because I'm fascinating by his rise, talent, and peculiar character.

Sept 18, 2019 19:53:14 GMT PB said:

Kenny Omega is in my avatar - so I clearly am a fan. However, lots of what you say Todd , deeply resonates with me. As a character I next to never buy into him. His entrances, promos, even his ring-gear always felt very distracting to me. I'm not into video games or cosplay - so he just looks like a massive nerd much of the time to me. I appreciate that that's a huge part of why he's so popular and have just accepted that character wise he just isn't ever going to be for me. I always wonder how he will connect on a bigger scale in the US if he doesn't adapt a bit. I think in AEW Kenny's story is actually really interesting as the elite level star who just isn't clicking in a new environment.

It's actually a fairly brave and interesting way to book a guy on that kind of money. I applaud them for it and hope it works out. It honestly may be the best way to go with a guy that has to slowly endear himself to an American audience that like 'edgy' over anything else. He's not edgy. He may be quirky and unique but he's not a guy, at least to me, that kids and young adults are going to look at and say 'I'd love to be that guy'.

The problem with it is it's a bad way to introduce him to a new audience and he just doesn't feel like a big deal. The Fyter Fest show in particular was pure fan service that just made them all look silly.

100%. I can go into more detail on this another time but the fan service shit has got to stop. It doesn't so much tell me that they want Tony Khan's money to take on WWE but so that they can expose this circle-jerk to a major audience. They need more of Cody, Jericho and MJF. Less fucking Young Bucks.

He is great in the ring though. I mean, there are the same issues with Kenny that there are with nearly all of today's top guys - over-use of false finishes etc. - but his matches with Okada and Ibushi in NJPW are amongst the best matches I've ever seen. But that's because in those matches the stories were very clearly defined and he was at his most serious. You could almost forget that you were watching the best-bout machine and it felt like you were watching this guy Kenny who was desperate to win. I actually think six months in NXT would make him so good as he learnt from the likes of Regal and HBK.

Read more: pwcom.proboards.com/thread/2384/kenny-omega?page=1#ixzz5zuVNxjUs

I'm not going to hold the false finishes against him. I fucking hate them, but 95% of wrestlers do it so whatever. I'm encouraged that he's a storyteller. Is it possible to watch these NJPW matches and get them without watching all of the matches in the lead-up? If so, maybe I will check one out.

Sept 18, 2019 20:07:03 GMT Emperor said:

I'll preface the following by saying I generally don't like silly bollocks in wrestling, and I think Kenny Omega is an amazing wrestler. He was one of my favourites in NJPW and consistently delivered in big match situations.

The problem with Kenny Omega is that he is too creative for his own good, and unable to resist his creative urges. It's part of his personality, which goes back all the way to his early years in DDT. You could argue that it is a trait of the best, most innovative, artists, but it's also off-putting and frustrating for many fans. People say Vince Russo is a great booker as long as there's someone on the same level of authority to keep his ideas in check and restraint him accordingly. I see Kenny Omega as the wrestling equivalent of that. When Kenny Omega is given free reign, he's inclined to do stuff like this:



Sorry for the annoying video, but that's the best I could find to illustrate the goofiest moments of that match. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed that match and liked the comedy, but it's not the most appropriate wrestling for the G1 Climax, the most important tournament in pro-wrestling today. Yano is known for his goofy comedy matches, but that match was an order of magnitude sillier than Yano's typical match, and it's far outside of Omega's NJPW character, clearly exposing the business in a country that still takes its pro-wrestling relatively seriously.

EDIT - PB said he did something very silly at Fyter Fest too, akin to the above. Perhaps that's a better example of "Kenny Omega unleashed".

I might cop some flak for this, but I don't want an 'artist' for a main event wrestler. I want a wrestler. Watching overly choreographed routines between two guys who are clearly desperate to have the greatest match of all-time takes me out of it.

Before anyone says 'but wrestling is an art'. Yes, of course it is. But that doesn't mean the artists have to be so transparent about creating the art. It's not the same as writing a song. It's a simulated competition. If neither guy is convincing that they are trying everything they can to win the match, I find it difficult to get absorbed in it.

In the little time I've seen Omega, in-ring he gives me a Dolph Ziggler vibe, and out of the ring he gives me a WTF vibe.

The PAC match was good and was the best thing I've seen from him. But it's more that I don't get the superstar vibe from him that you would associate with the top guy in the industry.

Just to clarify, there's nothing wrong with creative expression in wrestling. Once again, I don't want to sound like Jim Cornette but his character doesn't resonate with me and I don't feel like it'll resonate with millions on Wednesday nights either. But who knows.

Triple H's cosplay is entirely stupid and he's entirely able to get away with it because he looks like a badass and he's had a 20-year main event career at the top. It's a valid point in one respect but one is Triple H and the other is not, with due respect.

Triple H's entrances look like a grandpa trying desperately to look cool, which admittely works for him since it's what he has done all of his career.

Times have changed multiple times already, millions out there dont all think 80s trash metal and a perpetual frown are "badass".

Sept 18, 2019 20:55:11 GMT Todd said:

I might cop some flak for this, but I don't want an 'artist' for a main event wrestler. I want a wrestler. Watching overly choreographed routines between two guys who are clearly desperate to have the greatest match of all-time takes me out of it.

Before anyone says 'but wrestling is an art'. Yes, of course it is. But that doesn't mean the artists have to be so transparent about creating the art. It's not the same as writing a song. It's a simulated competition. If neither guy is convincing that they are trying everything they can to win the match, I find it difficult to get absorbed in it.

In the little time I've seen Omega, in-ring he gives me a Dolph Ziggler vibe, and out of the ring he gives me a WTF vibe.

The PAC match was good and was the best thing I've seen from him. But it's more that I don't get the superstar vibe from him that you would associate with the top guy in the industry.

Just to clarify, there's nothing wrong with creative expression in wrestling. Once again, I don't want to sound like Jim Cornette but his character doesn't resonate with me and I don't feel like it'll resonate with millions on Wednesday nights either. But who knows.

Triple H's cosplay is entirely stupid and he's entirely able to get away with it because he looks like a badass and he's had a 20-year main event career at the top. It's a valid point in one respect but one is Triple H and the other is not, with due respect.

Yeah that is my feeling. If he was booked as a mid card guy I think it won't feel so weird.

Also made the comparison between him and Dolph Ziggler on another forum I think. But was told I was being to harsh on AEW. A guy who has a poor win loss record who seems to trying his hardest to have the best match possible instead of winning.

Sept 18, 2019 21:05:26 GMT @nighty said:

Triple H's entrances look like a grandpa trying desperately to look cool, which admittely works for him since it's what he has done all of his career.

Times have changed multiple times already, millions out there dont all think 80s trash metal and a perpetual frown are "badass".

And a fair few do, considering the roof blows off the place any time he shows up.

You can not like him, but his shit works for him, I think it's fair to say.

Sept 18, 2019 20:55:11 GMT Todd said:

He is great in the ring though. I mean, there are the same issues with Kenny that there are with nearly all of today's top guys - over-use of false finishes etc. - but his matches with Okada and Ibushi in NJPW are amongst the best matches I've ever seen. But that's because in those matches the stories were very clearly defined and he was at his most serious. You could almost forget that you were watching the best-bout machine and it felt like you were watching this guy Kenny who was desperate to win. I actually think six months in NXT would make him so good as he learnt from the likes of Regal and HBK.

Read more: pwcom.proboards.com/thread/2384/kenny-omega?page=1#ixzz5zuVNxjUs

I'm not going to hold the false finishes against him. I fucking hate them, but 95% of wrestlers do it so whatever. I'm encouraged that he's a storyteller. Is it possible to watch these NJPW matches and get them without watching all of the matches in the lead-up? If so, maybe I will check one out.

I don't watch all of New Japan, just the highly rated matches that interest me - so you could definitely watch one of the Okada matches to see what he's about more. Yeah you'd miss a bit of the context but you'd get the gist.

Sept 18, 2019 21:08:13 GMT Todd said:

And a fair few do, considering the roof blows off the place any time he shows up.

You can not like him, but his shit works for him, I think it's fair to say.

I mean, that is what I said, it works for him.

Just like Omega's schtick has worked for him, given him and his friends have managed to turn what started as a bet with Meltzer into a full blown promotion that people are paying genuine attention to.

Just like you said, you can not like how he presents himself, but it's fair to say it has worked for him so far, and I appreciate that he is not ditching it all in favor of "what works", he could have just taken a WWE paycheck to in that case.

Sept 18, 2019 21:16:40 GMT @nighty said:

Sept 18, 2019 21:08:13 GMT Todd said:

And a fair few do, considering the roof blows off the place any time he shows up.

You can not like him, but his shit works for him, I think it's fair to say.

I mean, that is what I said, it works for him.

Just like Omega's schtick has worked for him, given him and his friends have managed to turn what started as a bet with Meltzer into a full blown promotion that people are paying genuine attention to.

Just like you said, you can not like how he presents himself, but it's fair to say it has worked for him so far, and I appreciate that he is not ditching it all in favor of "what works", he could have just taken a WWE paycheck to in that case.

That's fair, and I agree. I definitely credit him with being principled and sticking to his guns.

Honestly Nighty, do you see him getting over on mainstream TV in the US? And in US arenas every week? I don't but I think I might just be old-fashioned.

I definitely think he can and will get over on a wider audience, I just don't set ridiculous expectations of matching WWE's reach, it's all a matter of demographics.

Old fashioned wrestling fans set in their ways will probably never change their minds on him, but would you really call those "mainstream" fans, let alone the only kind of fans that AEW can hope to gain on TV?

WWE's TV reach is only a couple of million. When you consider how well known they are and how many people are aware wrestling is on Monday nights, it serves to show just how dreadful WWE is and has been over the last five years. Brand reach is obviously another matter.

I hope you're right and hopefully with exposure to Omega on weekly TV I'll pick up his character a bit more. Would be great to be invested in a talent on that level on the ring.

Sept 18, 2019 20:55:11 GMT Todd said:

It's actually a fairly brave and interesting way to book a guy on that kind of money. I applaud them for it and hope it works out. It honestly may be the best way to go with a guy that has to slowly endear himself to an American audience that like 'edgy' over anything else. He's not edgy. He may be quirky and unique but he's not a guy, at least to me, that kids and young adults are going to look at and say 'I'd love to be that guy'.

Maybe I missed part of the discussion, but when did 'edgy' enter the picture? Are we saying that being 'edgy' is the best way to get over? Maybe it was in 1998, but I don't see the evidence for it being true 2019. Personally I think Omega's shtick is pretty effective at attracting the younger generations, targetting the huge growth in nerd culture. You could make the argument that he is only appealing to a niche, but are video games and comic books really that niche anymore? Maybe this is all moot because dumbing Kenny Omega down to a walking video game/comic book spouting machine is over-simplifying his character to an insulting degree.

Sept 18, 2019 20:55:11 GMT Todd said:

I'm not going to hold the false finishes against him. I fucking hate them, but 95% of wrestlers do it so whatever. I'm encouraged that he's a storyteller. Is it possible to watch these NJPW matches and get them without watching all of the matches in the lead-up? If so, maybe I will check one out.

That's not an easy ask. I'm struggling to think of a Kenny Omega match that won't require knowing a lot of backstory/previous matches, or a Kenny Omega match that isn't filled with modern tropes you hate such as false finishes. That's what the NJPW big match is all about.

Perhaps one of his G1 Climax matches is appropriate. These matches typically don't have much backstory, it's just guys trying to win to earn tournament points, and the 30 minute time limit means that wrestlers don't tend to work excessive epics.

I'll go out on a limb and recommend Kenny Omega vs Minoru Suzuki from the G1 Climax in 2017. What do you need to know going in? This is the first meeting between the two. Minoru Suzuki is a ruthless, sadistic wrestler who has a legitimate MMA background (used to be a top fighter in Pancrase) and so uses strikes and submissions very effectively. Omega is one of the best wrestlers in the company (at that point in time he'd beaten everyone except Okada), but is a little hesitant to tangle with Suzuki. Don't remember how good the match is but that aspect of the story stuck with me, so it can't be that bad

Won't embed the video here, but the full match is available on Dailymotion.

Sept 18, 2019 20:55:11 GMT Todd said:

In the little time I've seen Omega, in-ring he gives me a Dolph Ziggler vibe, and out of the ring he gives me a WTF vibe.

Ah, now that you mention Dolph Ziggler, I know exactly how you feel. Overly choreographed, clearly trying to tick all the "great match" boxes. But I don't feel that way about Omega. He has flashes of it, but not as a whole.

Sept 18, 2019 20:55:11 GMT Todd said:

Triple H's cosplay is entirely stupid and he's entirely able to get away with it because he looks like a badass and he's had a 20-year main event career at the top. It's a valid point in one respect but one is Triple H and the other is not, with due respect.

Kenny Omega may not have the longevity in the main event scene as Triple H did, but for the last few years in his NJPW run he was undisputably one of the top guys in the company. Main evented the Tokyo Dome twice. Massively over. He may not look as badass as Triple H, but he's earned the right to do "stupid" cosplay as much as Triple H has.

Sept 18, 2019 20:43:00 GMT Emperor said:

For the record, I love Omega's cosplaying and I'm actually surprised there's so much backlash. I rarely see Triple H get shit for his ridiculous OTT Wrestlemania entrances, yet Omega gets criticism for such entrances as his amazing WK11 entrance?

I will die on the hill that this entrance was a direct fuck you to Triple H. “You want to see how a Terminator entrance should be done?”

I’ll post my thoughts when I’m on my laptop. I have a few.

I've read the thread but I can't respond to everything I want to respond to without making this post a fucking novel. Also I stopped at a brewery after work and had a couple. So I'm just going to lay out my thoughts and feel free to respond or ignore me since I tend to ramble.

The concern raised already by some of you, re: Kenny Omega in AEW/North American audiences is a concern that I also share. I like that AEW is a thing, but I was very disappointed to see Kenny Omega leave NJPW and I still am. I held out hope that AEW and NJPW would have a working relationship but apparently they fucked that up by leaving, which I get (the Japanese don't fuck around with loyalty, and they invested SO MUCH in The Elite), which is exactly what I feared would happen. I think that's really going to hurt how we look back on Omega's career in the future. He won the IWGP Heavyweight Championship after years of clawing and disappointment, telling one of the best story arcs NJPW has ever done, gaining mainstream attention and becoming the face of the company as they had big plans to expand into North America, then six months later he was gone.

What Ed said about Omega being best suited for Japan. I tend to agree, and I'll go as far as to say that he wouldn't be nearly as established as he is now if he wrestled in North America exclusively. Maybe he comes up as an indie darling a la CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, but given his tendencies towards the absurd and fringe nerd stuff, I think he would have ended up a comedy act and never broke through to the level he's at now. He owes his career to NJPW and the wrestlers/trainers there that both reeled him in and helped him work on his strengths and the things that made him great. I think Omega realized that and its why he stuck with DDT, NJPW, etc. Wrestling a stuffed dummy or a little girl would get you nowhere in ROH when CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson and so on were tearing it up.

I really think his current story arc is what others have said, "guy who isn't transitioning well and maybe made a bad decision," and he's going to bounce back and get built up. It isn't how I would have done it, but I'm willing to give it time and see where he's at a year from now before I judge their creative decisions.

Now, with the negativity out of the way.....

Kenny Omega is a fucking beast in the ring, and has been arguably the best worker in the world since around 2015 onward. And unfortunately his AEW matches haven't been good examples of why I say that. It's been said already but you really just need to watch his New Japan stuff if you want to see what fans of his see in him. There's no avoiding it. For a good 3-4 years, if Kenny Omega was in a match, you were guaranteed a fucking awesome match. End of story.

Watch his trilogy with Okada (although it's technically four matches, which I'll get to). It's a bit of a time investment, but you owe it to yourself to watch those matches if you really want to know what everyone sees in him. Those matches span from WrestleKingdom 11 to Dominion 2018 and it was the most thrilling and intense wrestling story arc I have ever seen. I honestly know how people felt watching Ali/Frasier or Tyson/whoever back in the day, because the story and build and match presentation was that fucking good.

All you need to know is this: Omega won the 2016 G1 Climax. It was his first attempt and he became the first non-Japanese wrestler to win the tournament. He had become leader of the infamous Bullet Club, he was "The Cleaner," he had beaten everyone there was to beat in NJPW, and now he and one of the greatest IWGP Heavyweight Champions of all-time were about to do battle at the Tokyo Dome. The hype was real.

Wrestle Kingdom 11. Dominion 2017. (then watch their match at the G1 Climax that year that wasn't their best fight but it's important to the story). Dominion 2018.

When the 3-count was made during that final match, I am not ashamed to say that I teared up. It was years of struggle and anguish erased with one amazing performance. And it helps that Omega is Canadian and we all stick together like that. It means just a little bit more when a fellow countryman makes history.

I don't have a closing paragraph for this post so I'm just going to stop now.

Sept 18, 2019 22:30:37 GMT Emperor said:

Sept 18, 2019 20:55:11 GMT Todd said:

It's actually a fairly brave and interesting way to book a guy on that kind of money. I applaud them for it and hope it works out. It honestly may be the best way to go with a guy that has to slowly endear himself to an American audience that like 'edgy' over anything else. He's not edgy. He may be quirky and unique but he's not a guy, at least to me, that kids and young adults are going to look at and say 'I'd love to be that guy'.

Maybe I missed part of the discussion, but when did 'edgy' enter the picture? Are we saying that being 'edgy' is the best way to get over? Maybe it was in 1998, but I don't see the evidence for it being true 2019. Personally I think Omega's shtick is pretty effective at attracting the younger generations, targetting the huge growth in nerd culture. You could make the argument that he is only appealing to a niche, but are video games and comic books really that niche anymore? Maybe this is all moot because dumbing Kenny Omega down to a walking video game/comic book spouting machine is over-simplifying his character to an insulting degree.

Edgy may have been the wrong word, but there is a stardom and a 'coolness' (holy shit that may be worse) that you see exhibited by Becky Lynch and her take-no-prisoners attitude, by CM Punk and his lack of respect for authority and tendency to speak his mind, by Brock Lesnar and his lack of remorse and empathy, plus his mean streak, by Braun Strowman and his ability to flip a car with his bare hands, etc. I'm talking about getting truly over on a mainstream stage. I don't think it's as outdated as you think. I think CM Punk tapped into it and Becky Lynch in particular hugely benefitted from it. People want cool. I'm not saying this to criticise Omega. And you're point about nerd culture is very fair and it will be interesting to see his relationship with the mainstream audience develop over the coming weeks. And before any one says it, of course there are exceptions such as Daniel Bryan.

Sept 18, 2019 20:55:11 GMT Todd said:

Triple H's cosplay is entirely stupid and he's entirely able to get away with it because he looks like a badass and he's had a 20-year main event career at the top. It's a valid point in one respect but one is Triple H and the other is not, with due respect.

Kenny Omega may not have the longevity in the main event scene as Triple H did, but for the last few years in his NJPW run he was undisputably one of the top guys in the company. Main evented the Tokyo Dome twice. Massively over. He may not look as badass as Triple H, but he's earned the right to do "stupid" cosplay as much as Triple H has.

In America, has he? Should he really be hamming up his entrance to that extent when many people don't know who he is. I'm not disrespecting him, I know he's a God in Japan and I know how hard that adulation is to come by so all credit to him. But he has to build that up in the West.

Sept 19, 2019 17:02:33 GMT Todd said:

Edgy may have been the wrong word, but there is a stardom and a 'coolness' (holy shit that may be worse) that you see exhibited by Becky Lynch and her take-no-prisoners attitude, by CM Punk and his lack of respect for authority and tendency to speak his mind, by Brock Lesnar and his lack of remorse and empathy, plus his mean streak, by Braun Strowman and his ability to flip a car with his bare hands, etc. I'm talking about getting truly over on a mainstream stage. I don't think it's as outdated as you think. I think CM Punk tapped into it and Becky Lynch in particular hugely benefitted from it. People want cool. I'm not saying this to criticise Omega. And you're point about nerd culture is very fair and it will be interesting to see his relationship with the mainstream audience develop over the coming weeks. And before any one says it, of course there are exceptions such as Daniel Bryan.

I see what you're saying. Maybe Kenny doesn't have that coolness/edge factor. Or maybe he does. Would this promo change your mind that he has some potential? Don't tap out at the beginning, the real promo starts at around 50 seconds.

Sept 19, 2019 17:02:33 GMT Todd said:

In America, has he? Should he really be hamming up his entrance to that extent when many people don't know who he is. I'm not disrespecting him, I know he's a God in Japan and I know how hard that adulation is to come by so all credit to him. But he has to build that up in the West.

I wasn't aware his entrances were that hammy in AEW. I don't remember. I thought he had pretty normal entrances. I would agree that he hasn't necessarily earned that right in the USA, although I wouldn't complain if he trotted out a special entrance for a huge match, like Jericho did on the first AEW show, just because it was the first ever AEW show.

I don't get Kenny Omega but I liked that one time he wrestled the doll and little girl

For me, Kenny Omega is without a doubt one of the best wrestlers in the world. And, I would put him second to Johnny Gargano as this generation's greatest big match performers ( maybe an unpopular opinion.. Johnny Wrestling delivers at Takeover like no other ) 

Kenny Omega excelled in NJPW because it allowed him to do what he does best. Work matches. And he is without a doubt, one of the finest in the world to do it. A Kenny Omega story arc is told in the ring, bell to bell. A masterful in-ring performer, a storyteller, a psychologist, an artist. And NJPW is the place to be that.

However. NJPW also hid what I perceive as an obvious flaw. Maybe, never needing to coach or further develop what Omega isn't great at. Talking. There's an awkwardness, a weird speech pattern. A weird delivery. 

The challenge he faces, I don't call it a problem, is he's not working for NJPW anymore or an independent, that can simply sell a match or show on brand name Kenny Omega™ or Bullet Club™ he's now working a WWE style/Sports Entertainment product in AEW that's going to require more from Kenny Omega than a 40 minute marathon each week. If he was a more complete performer, maybe Kenny would have been the first AEW Champion and AEW not needing a 48 year old Chris Jericho to carry the flag. 

So Kenny Omega...

First off, there is that Zack Ryder esque appeal to him and the Elite where they've changed their relationship with their fans and made them feel a part of the community. Fans aren't expected to idolise them, they're cut from the very same cloth, the only difference is that they're living the dream. It's what made Bruce Pritchard relevant in 2016 and so on and so forth. They've cultivated this YouTube community, continually improved their YouTube videos to the point now they've been able to run a successful wrestling organisation off the back of it.

As a performer, Omega's work is instantly accessible. There are some wrestlers out there you watch like a Jerry Lawler and you think "I could do that". With Omega and the Bucks, they're capable of feats that are simply impressive to the lay-person. Moreover, they're very savvy to cliches so they'll often subvert expectations and instead of working the same routines we're so used to, they'll change it up. On top of that, they also take higher risks than most of their peers so their matches involve higher stakes. Further more, they work a faster clip. We talk about selling like it matters, but really if you ask the lay person, they don't want to see wrestlers spend 10 minutes of the match on the ground selling a body part. They want action and very few can compete at the intensity of an Omega or the Bucks.Then on top of that, they have signature moves. One nugget of advice I see around is that the best acts are those that can easily be identifiable and with Kenny he has a lot of moves that are unique to him as well as taunts and so on.

So in Omega you have one of the most athletically gifted, hardest working easily identifiable wrestlers in the world who has built a brand just like Xavier Woods by using YouTube to his benefit.

So the readers digest version of Omega...

Omega worked the small time Canadian indies, drew the attention of the WWE and got himself a development gig in DSW. That didn't work out, so he went onto the independents where he really made a name for himself around 2008. The thing about Kenny is that he never wore out his welcome anywhere and he was usually mixing it up. So you had these highly competitive matches with Bryan Danielson in PWG but also you'd get some weird Falls Count Anywhere match on YouTube which was a good use of that medium at that time.

He eventually found his footing in Japan where he could hone his craft. The Japanese wrestling scene back then was a lot less popular than it was today, so hardly anybody was keeping up with his odd NJPW appearances and only every so often you'd hear about some crazy match he was having with Kota Ibushi in DDT. DDT was one of those comedy promotions that for mine gets unbearable over long doses, but if you cherry pick the odd match you'll come across something decent and Omega was a part of that.

Fast forward, Omega is still just making random appearances here and there, most notably as a junior in NJPW as a freelancer. Anytime he appears, he's a stand-out on the show, but it's the junior division. It was like the WWE's version circa 2007 where you've got so many stale acts. I'm talking Funaki tier wrestlers and yes 🤯 I do mean that as a slight.

In 2014, Omega finally made the jump to NJPW full-time and this was when his star started to explode. He came in as THE junior for Bullet Club replacing Yujiro Takahashi who had basically been useless outside of bringing his hot piece of ass with him. I don't even mean to sound sexist, that's how his valets are treated. Anyways he comes in as The Cleaner, the guy who is meant to dispose of the bodies, except he acts like a cartoon garbage man with a spray can and all sorts of gimmicks. He does that stuff for a year, owns that division and then NJPW goes through a massive overhaul. AJ Styles and Shinsuke Nakamura sign with the WWE, opening 2 of 4 main event slots and one of Omega's main competitors for a push, Kota Ibushi walks out to do a bunch of freelance work like working the WWE Cruiserweight Tournament.

Wasting little time, Omega disposes of AJ Styles becomes the head of the Bullet Club and also gets the better of Shinsuke Nakamura on his way out of the company. Omega then goes over the John Cena of NJPW Hiroshi Tanahashi to win the Intercontinental Championship which in NJPW is more like the SmackDown Heavyweight Title. Omega eventually drops it to Elgin in lieu of the G1 Climax, their big Royal Rumble type event where he wins it and becomes the first gaijin in history to main event a WrestleKingdom.

Omega loses to Okada, but pushed him for 40 odd minutes and didn't get a chance to hit his finisher while surviving multiple finishers by Okada. He received a rematch at their version of SummerSlam where the match ended in a 60 minute time limit. Then during the G1 Climax, Omega was finally able to beat Okada, albeit Okada went into the match heavily injured since as the champion everyone goes extra hard since it gives them a good case to get a championship match on PPV. Omega has another strong showing, but loses to another main event star Tetsuya Naito.

Without an opponent, Omega got into a twitter war with Jericho and Chris shocked the world by showing up in NJPW and laying Omega out. This led to a No DQ match at WrestleKingdom and it became the most successful international broadcast in NJPW history. Omega brought the best out of Jericho and it was Jericho's best showing in well over a decade, possibly ever.

Around that time, Ibushi dropped his Tiger Mask W gimmick and reformed the Golden Lovers tag team with Omega. This caused a fracture in the Bullet Club and over in the States there was a leadership spill between Kenny and Cody for the Bullet Club which the Bucks found themselves in the crossfire. They seemingly patched everything up, but drew monster business in ROH as a result.

In NJPW, Omega got a rematch with Okada at Dominion in a 2/3 Falls No Time Limit match. On this occassion, Omega emerged victorious, coming back from a shock early fall to take it 2-1. The match is considered the greatest match in the history of the profession and it broke the star system.

In that year's G1, Kenny found himself in the same position as Okada but seemed to be handling it as well if not better. Omega looked like he could possibly win the entire thing as champion until he came across his tag team partner Ibushi in the last round of the tournament. Ibushi managed to come from behind to beat Omega, but lost in the final to Tanahashi who was on the comeback trail with embittered rival and recently retired Katsuyori Shibata as his guide. Shibata was one of those acts that was meant to be as big as Tanahashi and Nakamura, but he left NJPW to get into MMA, got whooped and came back with his tail between his legs. As such he was booked well, but not well enough to be a top guy. Then he suffered a serious head injury against Okada and had to retire, going out in the best match of his career.

Anywho, All Or Nothing happened it was a huge success and word quickly spread about a new promotion with Jericho and JR attatched to it. At WrestleKingdom, every Elite member lost including Kenny which led to all sorts of speculation that was confirmed a day or so later with AEW.

Then there was speculation about Omega signing with the WWE. The move would have been huge since he was a key piece in that AEW cog and if he popped up in the Rumble it would have changed everything. It didn't happen and Omega eventually showed up infront of a pool and challenged one of the droogs to fisticuffs at Double Or Nothing.

Since AEW, Omega has been doing a losing gimmick and has presented himself as a colossal disappointment. It's a bold strategy to debut a talent like him to a western audience, and we'll see how it pays off.

Generally I find Kenny to be a pretty awful promo. I thought he spoke in a weird cadence and afflection to appeal to Japan and come across as a campy anime villain but he still does those promos everywhere. They always sound extremely self concious and I don't think he fully commits to the performance. He's like an actor who can't cut a serious monologue without smiling or laughing.

His cosplay entrance ideas are fine, the issue is that they always look incredibly cheap. Kenny spoke on this on one of Jericho's podcasts, where they completely messed up his Assassin's Creed entrance at their WrestleKingdom match and didn't air the pre-tape he especially made so it killed the entrance. Still, in comparison to HHH it's like comparing the Be Kind Rewind version of Ghostbusters in Kenny's to the real thing in HHH's. HHH gets the actual actors involved in his entrance, Kenny gets some bad foreign actors and puts together an amateur cosplay. You're comparing cardboard apples to real apples. You're comparing Gillberg's entrance to Goldberg.

Kenny has been holding back pretty hard in AEW. He knows he is not the top guy so he is not going all out yet. When he does go all out and tries to steal the show he will. I expect him and Moxley to steal the show and introduce people to what Kenny can do.

Fantastic post, Pete, but you dropped the ball just before the touchdown. Yeah that's right, I'm making an American sports metaphor. Deal with it.

Sept 20, 2019 14:11:24 GMT Big Pete said:

His cosplay entrance ideas are fine, the issue is that they always look incredibly cheap. Kenny spoke on this on one of Jericho's podcasts, where they completely messed up his Assassin's Creed entrance at their WrestleKingdom match and didn't air the pre-tape he especially made so it killed the entrance. Still, in comparison to HHH it's like comparing the Be Kind Rewind version of Ghostbusters in Kenny's to the real thing in HHH's. HHH gets the actual actors involved in his entrance, Kenny gets some bad foreign actors and puts together an amateur cosplay. You're comparing cardboard apples to real apples. You're comparing Gillberg's entrance to Goldberg.

I agree that his entrances aren't as good as Triple H's, but they are only one tier below. They are not bush league at all. His costumes are top notch, and the Terminator entrance video was pretty damn good in my opinion. His Undertale video was incredible as well, one of the best creative works in pro-wrestling, but NJPW only aired a few seconds of the video. By the way, he got the actual Undertale developer to make that video, analogous to Triple H getting the real actor.

Sept 20, 2019 17:51:10 GMT Emperor said:

Fantastic post, Pete, but you dropped the ball just before the touchdown. Yeah that's right, I'm making an American sports metaphor. Deal with it.

Sept 20, 2019 14:11:24 GMT Big Pete said:

His cosplay entrance ideas are fine, the issue is that they always look incredibly cheap. Kenny spoke on this on one of Jericho's podcasts, where they completely messed up his Assassin's Creed entrance at their WrestleKingdom match and didn't air the pre-tape he especially made so it killed the entrance. Still, in comparison to HHH it's like comparing the Be Kind Rewind version of Ghostbusters in Kenny's to the real thing in HHH's. HHH gets the actual actors involved in his entrance, Kenny gets some bad foreign actors and puts together an amateur cosplay. You're comparing cardboard apples to real apples. You're comparing Gillberg's entrance to Goldberg.

I agree that his entrances aren't as good as Triple H's, but they are only one tier below. They are not bush league at all. His costumes are top notch, and the Terminator entrance video was pretty damn good in my opinion. His Undertale video was incredible as well, one of the best creative works in pro-wrestling, but NJPW only aired a few seconds of the video. By the way, he got the actual Undertale developer to make that video, analogous to Triple H getting the real actor.

I appreciated The Undertale entrance as well, but I don't think it quite landed as an entrance since it needed a six minute video to make sense of it. Furthermore, NJPW never explained what was going on, so unless you were aware of the BTE video, a fan wouldn't quite be able to make sense of what was happening.

I don't think it's a knock on Kenny as much as NJPW and how inferior they are at crafting big elaborate entrances. The WWE has more experience in this department and it shows. 

Toby Fox's involvement is what makes the Undertale video stick out, but he's nowhere near as good a get as Arnold Schwarzanegger. Plus, Arnold was actually a part of the entrance, not just working behind the scenes making the video.

One correction I should make is that Omega's 2018 Entrance was inspired by Destiny, not Assassin's Creed. Still, that entrance left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. Not only was it poorly produced, but the time and place coming into a blood match and Kenny's dressed like he's going to Comic-Con.

Sept 18, 2019 20:07:03 GMT Emperor said:

People say Vince Russo is a great booker as long as there's someone on the same level of authority to keep his ideas in check and restraint him accordingly. I see Kenny Omega as the wrestling equivalent of that. 

Spot on. I have made the Omega-Russo comparison a few times before. 

My first time seeing Omega was when he came to New Japan full time a few WrestleKingdom's ago against Taguchi. I liked him right away. Thought he was great.

I liked him less with just about every subsequent watch to the point where I went off him years ago.

I can't imagine there is another wrestler out there more desperately in need of an editor. He has lots of good ideas. He just goes waaaay overboard with them.

With that being said, I am not Kenny Omega's target audience anyway. And he is over with that audience. So good for him.

Great point Bake and it goes back to a point nath touched on. If we compared Kenny to guys we grew up watching, it almost seems laughable that he's held in such esteem. The characters we enjoyed really committed to their roles and in their big matches made a point of their matches unfolding logically. That's more or less gone out the window, so when we compare Kenny Omega to somebody like a Bret Hart for instance, the lines become really blurred.

However if we compare Kenny Omega to his contemporaries, he fares a lot better. Personally I still prefer somebody like a Daniel Bryan but I can see arguments against the contrary. His series with AJ Styles wasn't the runaway success it should have been and his biggest success to date was making Kofi Kingston a legitimate main event star. We could compare Bryan vs. Kingston to Omega vs. Tanahashi and I'm sure the votes would be split, if not favour the latter.

One guy I'm curious to get your thoughts on Todd is Will Ospreay. I find him and Omega are extremely similar wrestlers, except Ospreay is younger and seems to be improving rapidly. For my money, I think he's the best wrestler of 2019, but like Kenny I think he's guilty of being a goofball 99.99% of the time.