Kilgore, Baker-man

Whicha yinz had that sweet sweet 1993-1994 WCW rebook on the ol' PW? How do we find it, repost it.

Rrrrooommmeeeooooo!!!

What did you guys do in that one, just kill off Regal?

🤯

That was all Bakerman. It's legendary to me because it pushed the Blonds to their proper heights. No recollection at all about what he did with Regal. Because it was fucking Regal.

Jun 6, 2020 0:24:38 GMT Kilgore said:

🤯

That was all Bakerman. It's legendary to me because it pushed the Blonds to their proper heights. No recollection at all about what he did with Regal. Because it was fucking Regal.

The blondes, plus Jack and Dustin... Right? Like they were a proto version of Shield, but in WCW, and actually good and exciting.

Think Johnny B. Badd got killed off? But zero recollection of Regal. Was he blueblooding with Eaton or Jean Paul Levesque?

Man, bring it back, Baker-man. So good. Might rival if not even surpass 1995-1996 WWF. Please, man. Please. We need it

Jun 6, 2020 0:30:25 GMT 🤯 said:

Jun 6, 2020 0:24:38 GMT Kilgore said:

🤯

That was all Bakerman. It's legendary to me because it pushed the Blonds to their proper heights. No recollection at all about what he did with Regal. Because it was fucking Regal.

The blondes, plus Jack and Dustin... Right? Like they were a proto version of Shield, but in WCW, and actually good and exciting.

Think Johnny B. Badd got killed off? 

Yep. I ended it with them sabotaging Starrcade '94 in their debut as a stable. Only I envisioned them more as a younger NWO ripoff rather than a Shield ripoff.

Johnny B. Badd was a Holly/Aldo style babyface jobber to the stars along with Bagwell, Erik Watts, and Brad Armstrong.

Here is Regal's progression as best I can remember....

Beach Blast 93- Defeated Bagwell in his big show debut
August 93 Clash- Defeated Watts
Fall Brawl 93- Defeated Scorpio to win the TV Title
Halloween Havoc 93- Defeated Davey Boy Smith
November 93 Clash- Defeated Scorpio in a TV Title rematch
Starrcade 93- Defeated Eaton
January 94 Clash- Lost TV Title to Arn
SuperBrawl 94- Regained TV Title from Arn
March 94 Clash- Either beat The Boss or lost TV Title to The Patriot
Spring Stampede 94- Lost to The Patriot
*Then formed the Blue Bloods a year early with Jean Paul Levesque.
They won the Tag Titles from Funk & Cactus at (I think) the August 94 Clash
Then lost the Tag Titles to Harlem Heat at Halloween Havoc 94
Starrcade 94 saw Regal beat Levesque in a Loser Leaves Town Match with an assist from the repackaged Baron Alexander Wright.
*Lord Steven Regal & Baron Alexander Wright were going to be the New Blue Bloods in 1995. 

The memories, they come rushing back

William Regal is Ric fucking Flair compared to HTM.

Three different posts and three different GOAT TV champs, mine is Arn Anderson.

Jun 6, 2020 1:31:39 GMT Shootist said:

William Regal is Ric fucking Flair compared to HTM.

'90s Buddy Landel, maybe. 

49. Lord Steven Regal (#20)- See my post from earlier today and also Pete's for more Regal good/badness.

My introduction to Regal came when he was portraying a boring white meat babyface in early 1993 WCW. He was even more forgettable than Chris Benoit of the same era. 

But then Regal & WCW struck gold by turning him heel and coming up with the Lord Steven character. I distinctly remember the first time I ever saw His Lordship. They played a quick clip of him during the "This week on Worldwide" intro. At first glance, I thought he was a new VAMPIRE character!  :lol:  This happened! Hey, he had pale skin, slicked back hair, and wore a fancy jacket. It was believable. Either that week or the next, they aired this over the top ceremony where regular ol' Steve Regal was rechristened Lord Steven Regal. Pretty sure his new manager, Sir William (Bill Dundee!), read a proclamation from a scroll. Needless to say, I was all in on Regal. He would be my favorite WCW wrestler for the next 2+ years. 

He soon won the TV Title and had successful big show defenses against top tier talent such as Pillman, Steamboat & Bulldog. But I never got to see any of those shows. The bulk of my exposure to Regal came via Worldwide. He was a Worldwide regular who often went 50/50 with jobbers before stealing a victory in the end. His wimpy toff character made me genuinely believe some jobber could get lucky and dethrone him. The most famous of these matches came against a guy I remember being Frankie Lancaster, though doubts have been cast. 

Regal's skinny fat look, lack of athleticism, anti-American attitude, and penchant for boring restholds to run down the clock made him the perfect heel TV Champ in my eyes. It was the Honkytonk Man formula brought to WCW. This idea that he was a "good wrestler" never even crossed my mind. He sucked! That was the whole point of his character! He had a knack for getting under the skin of normal people. That taunt where he'd push his bicep up was *chef's kiss* My brother had mostly been checked out of wrestling for 2 years, but he would occasionally watch a few minutes of Worldwide or Superstars with me. He despised Regal. Until a few years ago, Regal was up there with Jarrett, Honky & Mountie as his least favorites of all time (my brother clearly had bad taste in wrestlers growing up. He did start to come around in his final years). 

Regal wrestled WCW Champion Ric Flair in a 5 match Marquis of Queensbury Series around May '94. This was as big as it got for Worldwide. And I rooted for Regal all the way! That just shows you how big a fan of His Lordship I was. And I was genuinely bummed out when Flair pinned Regal in Match #5 to win the series. It was honestly a Jump The Shark moment for me. Slick Ric had never been a superman-style babyface. And here he is beating Regal in his own specialty match. Bullshit!

After being Mr. TV Champ for about 18 months, Regal formed the awesome Blue Bloods tag team with another Baker Guy in Bobby Earl Robert Eaton. They weren't just my favorite WCW act for about 6 months. They were literally the only WCW act I enjoyed for several months. I wanted them to win the tag titles so bad. And I once convinced myself they were going to beat Sting & Luger at a Clash to do just that. Alas, it was not to be Even now I'm a little bummed out they never won the tag titles. Looking at that list of WCW Tag Champs in '95.....yeah. They were better and/or more over than all those teams except maybe Harlem Heat.

Lord Steven Regal has his most high profile match to date against Sting at Great American Bash '96. I was pumped for this! Finally His Lordship is flirting with the main event! He lost. And that was fine! I expected him to lose to Sting. But maybe there'd be a rematch....Maybe he'd stick around the upper card....

He didn't. And I quit watching WCW. Right before Regal won his TV Title yet again. Good for him!

As I mentioned earlier, Regal would have cracked my Top 25, and I'd have spent the last 7 years gushing about him if he had retired right then and there. With the TV Title, he was WCW's answer to the Honkytonk Man. Without it, he was their answer to Jacques Rougeau. These were the highest compliments I could pay a midcard heel! But Regal kept going....

I got online in early '98. And discovered I was not the world's only Regal fan after all! Not gonna lie. It shocked me that he had other fans. I didn't even care WHY they liked him. I was just happy to see I was not alone as I had always thought. Yet, even as a Regal fan (from afar) with anti-Goldberg bias, I thought Regal going into business for himself was messed up. Even as a teenager I knew that was breaking the most important rule of wrestling. He got fired as he should have...

And soon made his way to my beloved WWF! Hooray! I had hoped for this dating way back to Fall 1993 when I wanted him to join the Foreign Fanatics. His debut saw him introduced by Sable(?) as "one of the best wrestlers in the world." Umm...ok, I guess. He beat Droz(?) in a lousy match and then disappeared for a few weeks (months?)....

Only to resurface as a.... "Man's Man?" Huh?  This was SUPER weird and very bad. Regal in WWF was a win....so long as he portrays LORD STEVEN REGAL. The Man's Man gimmick also would have been a win....so long as it was portrayed by basically ANYBODY OTHER THAN LORD STEVEN REGAL. Still maybe the biggest 'wtf' casting decision in WWF history. Was this a rib on Regal? The fans? I still don't get it. The so-called "great wrestler" had a lousy match with X-Pac at Survivor Series, a few other lousy matches, and then left due to drug issues. What a disappointing run.

He briefly returned to WCW. Then cleaned himself up while working WWF developmental before returning to the main roster around September 2000, this time portraying his proper "British snob" character. I was even more hyped this time around after hearing a lot of hype about what a "great wrestler" Regal was. I remember going to a TV taping in October 2000. Everybody in my section other than me was booing His Lordship. Then I heard another clapper a few rows back and some 20 feet over. I looked back to catch a glimpse at this mysterious 2nd Regal fan. Turns out it was this guy Boo who had just started working with me. We became fast friends after that, and he would remain one of my very best friends until mid 2006. 

Anyway, I was still digging Regal. He was back to playing the only role he should ever play. But I was disappointed in his matches. The so-called "great wrestler" frankly sucked in the ring. I didn't get it. He feuded with Jericho. Surely good matches will come now. WRONG! Their matches sucked. Then he feuded with Edge. Surely good matches will come now. WRONG! Their matches sucked. Then he feuded with RVD. NOBODY has bad matches with RVD. Surely good matches will come now. WRONG again! That's when I gave up on ever accepting Regal as a "good wrestler." He had back to back to back feuds with guys who almost always delivered good matches on big stages and all those matches sucked. I won't even go out on a limb and say he's better in the ring than Mideon. The Power of the Punch gimmick got old pretty quickly for me. But at least he still had the winning "snob" gimmick.

Then they took that away and tried pushing him as a badass. Give me a break! To me, this was no different than booking Honkytonk Man as a badass.... Mideon as a high flyer.... Brock as a plucky underdog.... Rey as a dominant force. Look, I know Regal is a real life tough guy. But it never translated in the ring. Perhaps it was all those years of being a HTM-style wrestler. Maybe it was a bad booking (shouldn't a "badass" win more than lose?). But I think it was mostly Regal sucking at portraying a "badass." Some wrestlers/actors are tailor made for one role. For Regal, it was the British Snob. That's the only role he ever should have had imo. Even if you want to disagree with me, you cannot dispute the "British snob" runs were his career peak. 

Before long, I went full Kilgore and hated everything Regal did. For starters, he was about as athletic as a drunk moose on ice skates. Hated the way he took every bump a split second late. Hated the stupid, comical way he took armdrags from Luchadors. Hated the way he'd sandbag suplexes. Hated how the so-called "badass" tapped in 0.1 seconds LIKE A WIMP to every submission finisher he was ever put in. Hated his stupid do-si-do neckbreaker finisher. Hated his stupid running knee finisher even more. "A KNEE STRIKE :lol:  You gotta be kidding me! That's Jake's setup for his setup!"- 2002 me. My, how far we have fallen. I even hated that goofy little gyration he'd do before throwing his left handed punches. Hated the way weirdos online STILL called him a great wrestler despite dud after dud after dud.  

REGAL SUCKS!!!!!!! WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?? Was this all an elaborate prank? An ironic meme that got out of control? To this day, I remain perplexed. I don't think there is another "good wrestler" I have more disconnect with than Regal. I don't care much for modern wrestling, but I can at least see WHY people like it- Flipz R Kewl. With Regal, I just....don't get it.

So, yeah, Regal was one of my absolute least favorites from about mid 2001-Whenever. I also thought he was the worst wrestler in mainstream wrestling for much of that time. For many of those years, my Worst Match of the Year is just a battle between various Regal bouts. Ditto for Worst Feud of the Year. Take out the Benoit matches (which really shouldn't count because everybody except Sean O'Haire and Mohammad Hassan, both of whom also sucked, had good matches with Benoit) and I think Great Khali had more matches I enjoyed (2) than 2000s Regal. 

Since joining PW, I have tried giving Regal the benefit of the doubt by rewatching some old matches from his WCW heyday. The cult favorite Uncensored 96 match with Finlay (which I HATED in real time) remains nothing special. I once wrote about it in the Match Review thread. (Though I'll admit to always liking their Parking Lot Fight on Nitro. Face it. A Piledriver on a car is always going to be a win in my book.) There was a match with Johnny Gunn (Tom Brandi/Sal Sincere) where I though Brandi was the better guy. Most of the Regal squashes I went back and watched ranged from average to bad, though I did like one where Regal channeled his inner HTM against....Eddie Jackie, maybe? Can't remember sure. 

Synopsis
1993-2001 Regal- YAY!
2001-Beyond Regal- BOO!

It's funny, Baker and I have really different tastes, but when we agree, WE AGREE. 5 years ago I rewatched the famous Benoit vs. Regal match from the Pillman tribute, the match that apparently got Regal rehired and was hyped as one of the great matches of the year. And it was a decent television show type match, something that might've happened on Thunder the year before, or Smackdown a year later, just a solid match, nothing special. Absolutely overrated by the circumstances (it was rare, so it had THE LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THIS GREAT MATCH THAT I KNOW YOU HAVEN'T SEEN, it was against Benoit at close to his most revered, and the story that it got Regal rehired). It was pretty good with Benoit, who would have great matches with anyone better, who were most wrestlers, as it turned out. As I roast this match, I think it might be my favorite Regal match, but that's on Regal's other matches (and also in his defense, me, who isn't seeking out a lot of his stuff, and completely ignored recommendations to watch the Cesaro matches).

Listen, no one should have to qualify why they like something, so ignore this if you choose, but for the sake of Bakerman and myself, what is it about Regal that makes him a "great" wrestler to those of you that think that because I don't see a single attribute that is even above average, let alone great.

I've seen that Benoit match twice in my life. I dunno what it was, but the first time I thought it was great. The second viewing (likely from the Benoit DVD which looking at the cover art is morbid as fuck with the red and the anger face) I thought it was meh. No idea if it was a different match or what. I also have this weird memory that it was a lot longer the first time around, like a 30 minute "classic" deal.

Jun 6, 2020 4:06:26 GMT @ness said:

I've seen that Benoit match twice in my life. I dunno what it was, but the first time I thought it was great. The second viewing (likely from the Benoit DVD which looking at the cover art is morbid as fuck with the red and the anger face) I thought it was meh. No idea if it was a different match or what. I also have this weird memory that it was a lot longer the first time around, like a 30 minute "classic" deal.

My parents bought me the Benoit DVD and a weight machine for Christmas in
2004...

Jun 5, 2020 12:48:52 GMT iron maiden said:

Regal boring? Why because he doesn't do flips and try to kill himself on the daily? He's a brawler and has a great character that he plays to perfection. He's the precursor to Wade Barrett, Pete Dunne, Walter and so many others.

I was the high vote for Regal and I don't regret it. This is a list of favorite wrestlers which as RT said is subjective. I've long admitted to not caring for the high flyers and backing the technicians and Regal is a technician and an underrated one at that. A great mind for the business (which is why he is still around) and also has great on air presence. Never at the top of the card, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's had a solid career full of classic matches. His feud with Benoit, 2009 feud with Christian and let's not forget the FCW feud with Ambrose that set Dean up for the Main Event. Not everyone is meant to be HBK.

EDIT: And just to blow your mind I had HHH under him at #26. 

I had Regal at 11 as well, so I guess that makes us the twin high votes for Regal.  Maiden pretty much covered my thoughts on Regal but there's a couple of other things I'd like to add too.  I do not regret having Regal at 11, when I started to make this list I always knew he'd be very high on there, he's one of the first I thought of.  Like maiden, I don't really care for the high flyers, you won't find too many of them on my list, give me a good solid mat technician any day (with a mix of some top rope stuff) and I'm happy.  To me, that's Regal.  Solid mat technician, the epitome of the british style for so long - no frills but capable of a solid match with just about anyone (I know you can probably prove me wrong, but hey ho).  Maybe I am also guilty of british bias but for so long there weren't that many, and I remember when Regal was skinny little Steve Regal on the old world of sport on saturday mornings, just starting out.  I couldn't believe it was the same guy when I saw him years later but he does reference that in his book.

I'd argue that he's one of the better heels in the business too, I've had the good fortune to see him on a couple of tours when he's come here and he generated heat like nobody else, in his own words 'you booed me out of the building last time I was here'   He has a great head for the business and I'm delighted he's still around as GM on NXT, it's a role that really seems to suit him - and if I can hear him call someone 'sunshine' then that's my day made.  I am so glad that Emperor posted that Hogan promo, because if he hadn't, I would.  That's one of Regal's finest moments, I still giggle thinking of 50 pence tart  .  So as this is favourites, and it's subjective then I am more than happy to put Regal at 11 on my list, I love the guy.  I've had the absolute pleasure of meeting him on 2 different occasions now too and I can confirm he's an absolute gent.  I had him sign my copy of his book and we had a good chat about Scotland - he wrestled all over the country and up and down the coast here.  We had a good chat about Pete Dunne too, I think he's very proud of the guy.  I love Regal, so there.



Triple H I had at number 4.  Retrospectively he's maybe too high on my list when I look at it but I had my reasons for putting him there.  I know all the bad stuff - overlong promos, burying people, etc. etc. etc.  However he has one of the greatest passions for the business and one of the best brains for it that I've ever seen.  Like so many (Shawn Michaels) I am sure he's changed and mellowed over the years but as I don't know the guy I can't say.  I can say I will quite happily watch an HHH match, he won't ever set the world alight with his moveset, but he's a fine ring general with great ring awareness.  But give him a great opponent like HBK, Taker, or someone to really work with and it's magic.  For me he has one of the greatest entrances ever (but I love Motorhead so), he has great presence and charisma and if NXT is proof of what he can do without Vince sticking his nose in, then WWE is in safe hands for years to come.

I love that Regal is getting posts and posts dedicated to him while the only people who have even mentioned Triple H are myself and Rogue.

Keep it up, boys.

27 .) William Regal
31 .) Triple H

Reminder for hopefully a little later this morning

🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯 🤯

Can we get back to the Regal hate? Honestly it's the first time I've ever come across any and I kinda like it.

Amazing facial expressions.



More stylish and classy than Ric Flair ever was.

GOAT babyface promo from a predominantly heel worker, while staying true to his villainous personality.

What's not to love?

Look at that promo and the Hogan promo. Even though he's not in their league, he makes me want to fork out my British pounds to see him tussle with Hogan and Triple H. He makes me believe he can win. Has there ever been a better promo in the history of wrestling? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

23. Rey Mysterio (38)



Not one of the major favourites from my childhood but obviously one of the greatest workers of all-time and had a lot of stand-out moments. The Guerrero match at Halloween Havoc is top five all-time and he's been in a few classics at the very top end. Revolutionised the business in that he was presentable as a threat to much bigger guys. I actually like what he became later in his career when he toned down the spots and became more of a storyteller.



21. Terry Funk (16)



Another like Lawler who you credibly refer to as a GOAT. Did everything there was to in his ridiculously long career. Responsible for some of the greatest matches of all-time, the fight with Flair a particularly stand-out. Unhinged and believable as a character, he only needed to tweak one or two things here or there to work face or heel. Very authentic, about as authentic as they come. Similar to Lawler in that he wasn't perfect technically, but what a storyteller.



20. William Regal (21)



I can understand Regal placing where he did. My guess is he picked up a lot of middle-rank votes and they accumulated to land him in a great spot at 20. There's nothing wrong with this either, Regal was a very good technical wrestler who always put the story above showcasing his own skills. Tremendous storyteller both in and out of the ring, and had huge promo range. His serious stuff with HHH and the KotR later in his career, balanced against the comedy stuff in the early 2000s. I haven't seen a great deal of WCW Regal but I endeavour to.



21. Triple H (1)



My love affair with HHH started in January of 2000 when my childhood best friend had recorded the now lored 2000 Royal Rumble PPV. I'd had a brief flirtation with wrestling as a hobby for a few years before then but it's very vague in my memory and never seemed to really stick, until I saw the Street Fight between Cactus Jack and HHH. The story they told that night still holds up as one of the best I've seen. HHH is tremendous in his role, playing a guy who's really afraid but pretending not to be afraid (no one was ever better at it), never burying himself but establishing just enough cowardice to tell the story. As a ten year-old, I loved the ruthlessness of this guy compared with other wrestlers. 'He just kicked out of my finisher? That's fine, I'll just stick his head in thumb tacks, that should do the job. The idea of a guy who just wanted at all costs to be the number one was extremely appealing to me. And so, my 20-year long markdom of HHH was born.

I don't deny the troughs. Too many long promos, in 2003 he was overweight when he was going too hard on the steroids and he had shitty matches, and refusing to put good, young talent over. I accept this. It doesn't change anything for me. There are few peaks in wrestling history that come anywhere close to HHH's level in 2000. Great match after great match. Nuclear heat. Intense promos. Great stories. The rivalry with Foley, then the Rock, then Austin. The near-face turn in the summer that the fans were begging for. It was perfect. I often wonder what the plan was with the two-man Power Trip. Because it was god awful, what a dreadful angle. The two top guys beating the shit out of everyone every week with the Rock off filming a movie. Surely the plan must have been for HHH to turn face on Austin. How would that have gone? Who knows.

I also find the criticism of HHH as 'the guy who wrestles the guy who draws the money' amusing, as if that's supposed to be insult. It's in fact one of the greatest compliments you could ever give a heel, considering it is the entire fucking point of being a heel. HHH was perfectly balanced in his early days. Credible, but not so credible that you bought him as superior to the top babyfaces. Later on in his career he would lose this balance and present himself too strongly which is a shame. Still, there were many highlights. The Batista angle is one of the best WWE has ever done. The little story with Ric Flair with the great Cage match and fun Last Man Standing match to cap it off. He had solid chemistry with Cena and they were enjoyable.

But what really cemented HHH as my all-time, never-to-be-topped favourite was his series with the Undertaker. He went into that series under the most enormous pressure possible. Following two of the greatest matches of all-time, following his best friend, and bear in mind he was already part-time by then, the fact that he was able to present two matches in that way, particularly the last one (which may be all-time favourite match and is the peak of sports entertainment IMO), shows his true greatness. The cherry on top was the Bryan match at Mania 30 which was bittersweet for me. Seeing him that well-conditioned and agile left me feeling like he was doing himself a disservice when he was overweight in '03-'05. Still, I always knew that. His bodybuilding habit was a detriment to his career I guess. And because of that, he has a lot of bad work in that period that people don't forget and I don't blame them. The Bryan match cemented that belief for me. Greatest Mania opener of all-time, btw.

Now he uses his great mind to try to change Vince's mind and thank God he does because if he wasn't there, God only knows how bad it could get.

The more time that passes the more I love Triple H. I hated him in a great heel way back in the day and always thought he was one of the best in the business despite his detractors. Not perfect by any means in our out of the ring.

What’s really pushed him over the top though since his prime is listening to him talk. His career , wrestling history or the current product - he just seems to align so much with my tastes and his knowledge of the business is matched by very few. Also isn’t afraid to work his ass off to get where he wants to be and I also respect that.

Regal is fine. Better as a comedy act or fodder than he is at being entertaining as a wrestler. Midcarder at best.

The case for Regal today is funny faces and good promos, so Dean Ambrose?

Jun 6, 2020 13:20:01 GMT Emperor said:

I love that Regal is getting posts and posts dedicated to him while the only people who have even mentioned Triple H are myself and Rogue .

:lol:  I just mentioned this in yesterday's PW News thread. Did not expect HHH to be the least polarizing figure in a two man group.

I liked those Regal promos you posted. Particularly the Hogan one, which I remember popping for in real time.

@ness - Todd revealed himself as the #1 vote for HHH in this thread. So there's your news story for the day. 

To piggyback on something Kilgore wrote, I just want to reiterate that I really do not care how people voted. As I've mentioned before, it's all in good fun. If you voted for a wrestler I like, that's great! If you voted for a wrestler I dislike, that's fine too! The only thing I really take semi-seriously are my writeups. JBL finishing #27 was an "lol wtf YAY!" Regal finishing #20 was an "lol wtf BOO!" And that's about the extent of it. 

Plus, for all my bashing, Regal made my list! I had him at #49. So I'm bashing a wrestler I voted for. I've criticized most of the other wrestlers I voted for as well. Just keeping it real. Calling it straight down the middle, Fonzie style.

Jun 6, 2020 23:22:16 GMT Kilgore said:

The case for Regal today is funny faces and good promos, so Dean Ambrose?

Ugh, yuck, no way. Regal's funny faces are actually funny and his good promos are actually good.

The only thing Regal and Ambrose have in common now that Ambrose is getting fat is they have terrible physiques.

To be honest, I don't think Regal is all that amazing in the ring. He's certainly not awful, as some are making him out to be, but he's not a technical wizard either. He's just a competent wrestler who has the basics down to perfection, has that British grappling toolkit in his arsenal, and can tell a good story. No idea why his sometimes-hokey bumping gets such a bad rep when people are here glorifying Rick Rude's atomic dropping selling, for example.

He's undeniably a better performer/entertainer/character than a wrestler, but I think he's a pretty good wrestler too. He's no Damien Sandow, who is also a great performer (albeit lacking the versatility of Regal) but a one-note bore in the ring.

Some catch-up comments.

Hogan was my #8. He was my man as a young child, with most of my young wrestling watching being late Hulkamania era PPV tapes. My earliest, hazy, live wrestling memories is marking out watching him win the title at Mania IX. I didn't see his nWo run in real time sadly, but even just in GIF form, it has given a lot to the world. I loved the 2002 comeback and the Mania X8 Hulk Up will always be near the top of my all-time favourite moments. I went down on him a bit in my earlier smark days because that's the smarky thing to do, but watching some of his earlier stuff recently and I am higher on him than ever. The stuff that I never saw as a kid, the early Hulkamania stuff, before he just wore yellow because that's what his action figure had and before the Hulk Up was this precise thing that always happened, is so much fun. Even though you aren't going to get **** matches out of that Hogan, the energy he brings, the sheer overness is spectacular. Also, one of the elite babyface promos. Coke-fuelled intensity and charisma that is off the charts.

Joe was my #31 and the inspiration behind my original PW name. With my pro wrestling love waning (see Triple H below), Joe was a guy who hooked me and was my guide into the non-WWE world. Before everyone became too leg-slap happy and ruined it, I loved his brutal kicks and strikes. Just his whole style was cool. His Necro match is still the peak of sleazeball wrestling for me and may legitimately be my 2005 MOTY. I'm glad he has got his WWE run in the end, sadly well too late.

Vader was my #25. He did things that shouldn't have worked. He bumped too early. He bumped too much. But he was still a monster and made it work. Because he is Vader. I wish his WWF run had gone better, weight be damned. He was still over in early 1998, but they were never going to put him in a prominent spot. At least he went to All Japan and produced some very good stuff to show he still had it before his career winded down.

Rey was my #21. Like many others, I got sick of the 619 and the set ups for it, but he was still a great worker whenever I'd see him at any point in the last decade. His 90s and early 00s work was obviously exceptional. I still think WWE fucked their chance to make him a bigger star than he became. He was on his way to the top of the card anyway when Eddie died and in a typically ham-fisted, exploitative way, the WWE drove the Eddie card into the ground so hard that they got fans to actually boo Rey fucking Mysterio after his great friend (who the fans loved) had died.

Hennig was my #48. Fun character and like many from that era of the WWF, a big part of my youth. A ludicrous bumper in the WWF, going too far at times, not in a stoogy way but in a full-on cartoon way. His WWF run is probably an overall disappointment when revisiting, because the talent is clearly there, but he doesn't produce as much as you know he could or that his rep suggests. I still need to see more of his 80s and AWA stuff, because what I have seen is excellent (example) and has given me the feeling that his best years, like most others, was before he joined Hulkamania WWF.

Funk was my #13. This is a guy whose bumping and stooging could be so incredibly exaggerated that I could totally understand someone thinking it was comical and even immersion-destroying. But I love it. Funk walking in a daze, throwing wild punches at nothing, falling over guard rails. Others have already covered his longevity, versatility and influence. And like others have already said, nobody was more pro wrestling than Terry Funk.

Regal was my #44. He does have a good amount of high-end stuff scattered about if you look for it, but when I think of Regal, I think of a short TV match with lots of nice touches. The extra bit of torque on a hold. Testing his jaw when back on top having just received a blow. That sort of thing.

Triple H would be more likely to make a greatest list than a favourite for me. There are not many wrestlers that ever came across lamer to me than 97-98 DX HHH. When I found out years later that he doesn't drink, that made sense. He is a clean guy and him attempting to act wild and raunchy and controversial just rang so false. I did not buy him at all as a top guy in late 1999 (and I think many others share the same viewpoint) and those Foley matches completely legitimised him. I don't think his work in this period completely holds up when going back but I was a big fan of him in 2000/early 2001 in real time and his MSG return in 2002 is still up there with anything for crowd reactions. His NWA cosplay run in 2003-05 was a large reason for my fandom waning. Across his whole career, he has a great collection of top matches (as he should have with his talent and the spots/opportunities he has had), but my god has he had some dreadful, crowd-killing matches. Just fucking interminable ones.

17. Triple H (#19)- Yet another guy with lots of ups and downs. In the end, the good outweighed the bad enough for me to come down on the side of Todd & Emp rather than the HHHaters.

I barely remember his WCW run as Terra Ryzing/Jean Paul Levesque. Had no opinion on him in those days. He was just there.

I was a Hunter Hearst Helmsley fan from day one. The character was a blatant Lord Steven Regal ripoff. But Regal was my favorite WCW wrestler. So I was cool with a WWF take on His Lordship.

He was fine as an "annoying" midcard heel in the fine tradition of Model/IRS/Mountie. Best case scenario, he'd get an IC Title reign and/or a KOTR win which fit his gimmick. Worst case scenario, he'd be phased out after a major feud or two. He'd never be a top guy or a babyface. But he was good in his very specific role. My brother was a traditional fan who typically rooted for the faces and booed the heels. So he was a good barometer on whether or not a character was working. He hated Helmsley. So that meant Young H was doing his job well.

My friends and I were really into the HHH/HOG feud and I remain a high vote on that feud to this very day. Just classic pro wrestling with the rough and tumble blue collar good guy battling the pompous blue blooded snob. People knock this stuff, but it's Pro Wrestling 101 in my book. These were archetypal characters people can relate to. They stood for something. Hog Farmer vs. Connecticut Blueblood is infinitely better than Johnny Bootsandtights: Crossfitter vs. Joey Blacktrunks: Flipper battling to....find out who the better wrestler is. BORING! Anyway, I am likely the high vote on their Hog Pen Match. Fwiw this particular match is where I first grasped the concept of finisher teases.

The law of diminishing returns kicked in when he followed the HOG feud by feuding with the similar Dumpster character. Then he got squashed by Warrior at 'Mania as he should have. As a HHH fan/Warrior hater, I didn't like it at the time, but it makes perfect sense in hindsight for that being the end game of his lengthy undefeated streak.

I lost interest in Helmsley after that. He became stale and started losing a lot. I can't say I was shocked. It was always a coin flip as to whether he would end up with an IRS career or a Repo Man career. That coin was coming up Repo Man. 

The feud with Perfect finally got me to care again. Now I was anti-Helmsley. But the Perfect Swerve won me back. I was ready to embrace HHH as IC Champ and Perfect's protege. But then Perfect left and I immediately lost interest again....

Until Chyna's debut. But even then she was a far more interesting character than the jerk she won matches for. 

HHH winning KOTR was a big whatever. But the subsequent Foley feud got him on my shitlist. Then the formation of DX REALLY got him on my shitlist. 

DX was pretty much the worst. Hated them. With that being said, their legacy is complicated. WWE clearly overrates them. But I think most fans actually underrate them. DX was huge! People were always doing the "Suck It" taunt and spouting their catchphrases. Guarantee you they moved a ton of merch. 

I'll also give Trips credit for a seamless transition into the leader role. I never once thought he was in over his head as the leader of DX despite Michaels being a far bigger star than 1998 Helmsley. When people mention DX, I always think of the HHH-lead version with XPac & The New Age Outlaws before the version with just HHH & HBK. HHH also got over as a face, which is something I never would have predicted.

Even though I hated his guts, it was obvious that HHH was a future superstar. The Rock/HHH feud was the Sting/Muta of its day in that I just KNEW both those guys were gonna be huge superstars real soon. Fwiw I was Team Rock all the way. 

HHH turned heel and I still booed him. Then he won the WWF Championship and I still couldn't stand him. He had go away heat with me as champ. I thought he was boring and bad. That 5 month span with HHH-Vince-HHH-Show as WWF Champions was the nadir of the WWF Championship up to that point in history. HHH really was a 4/10 at this point. He married Steph in a neat little swerve. Little did I know that would turn into a huge thing that may very well have put Trips over the top. He soon won the Championship yet again in early 2000 to yawns from me. But something legendary had just begun....

I voted HHH's January 2000-April 2000 championship reign #1 when we did our Greatest Title Reigns Countdown. 2000 HHH would also be neck and neck with 1989 Ric Flair as the greatest calendar year a wrestler ever had. Let's take a look at his title reign....

-vs. Rikishi on Smackdown- Cool angle. Good/great match. Made Kish a star (imo). Trips best match in ages. But we were just getting started....
-The Cactus Jack segments were great stuff. They got me wicked hyped for their Royal Rumble 2000 match. It had that old school feel with me since it was my favorite wrestler in Cactus against one of my least favorite in Trips. I genuinely cared about the outcome.
-And what a match it was! Todd summed it up beautifully. HHH went through hell and came out a made man. Literally my favorite singles match of all time and #2 overall (behind Canadian Stampede).
-DX vs. Rock & Sock and APA was a good Raw match. The 10 Man tag with a nuclear hot crowd a few weeks later topped that to become a Top 10 match in Raw history.
-Pinned "WCW Champion" Chris Benoit.
-Retired Cactus Jack at No Way Out in Hell In A Cell. This is another Top 10 favorite match of all time. I was gutted when it was over. My friends and I gave Cactus a standing ovation. I may have...had something in my eye. Now I wanted somebody, ANYBODY (except Jericho lol) to dethrone that jerk HHH.
-Became the first heel to ever prevail in a Wrestlemania main event. Dammit!
-Pinned ECW Champion Taz. This, coupled with beating Benoit, made HHH the unofficial Triple Crown holder in my eyes. Not enough people bring this up.
-Had the famous Dusty Finish match with Jericho on Raw.
-The Taka match was a good/great star vs. underdog sports entertainment match.
-Finally lost the title to The Rock in a Wrestlemania main event worthy match. Hooray!
-All this while getting nuclear heat. I can still hear those "Asshole" chants.

Then he regained the title from Rock in the only 1 hour Ironman Match worth your time. 2 months later Trips had the best match of Jericho's career up to that point, and the one that kinda sorta solidified him as a major player in my eyes simply because he showed he could hold his own in a WWF main event style brawl for the first time. The Summerslam Triple Threat with Rock & Angle is good and underrated. The Angle feud was great with a lousy payoff. The Benoit match at No Mercy was yet another top tier 2000 Trips match. OK, the Austin feud/match sucked, but he made up for it with another gem in the 6 Way HIAC to close out his legendary 2000 campaign.

OK, with that out of the way, here's the weird thing. I was STILL a HHHater until....sometime between July-October. I was a Rock/Foley Guy dating back years. So HHH drew that old fashioned "boo the heel" heat from me even though I recognized his talent. He was a lot like 1996 Michaels in that respect. I don't remember exactly when I stopped HHHating and learned to appreciate the Best In The Business, but I was ALL IN once I did. HHH was basically God to me from Whenever 2000 until Early 2002. It didn't hurt matters that he had two Top 5 themes of all time. I'm just saying....

The Austin match at No Way Out 2001 is another Top 10 all timer for me. The Taker match at WM 17 was the best Taker match in ages. But the Two Man Power Trip (weirdly) did nothing for me and HHH taking a step back to be IC Champ was stupid imo. HHH & Austin "passing the torch" to Benoit & Jericho meant less to me than most on the internet since I still hadn't come around on the Canadian Chrises. Then HHH famously tore his quad.

This is when The Legend of HHH really kicked into overdrive. At some point in 2000 I had a new clique of friends. The main players were Will, Boo, Bryan, and Jeff. Will & Boo were lifelong wrestling fans like myself. Bryan & Jeff had been lifelong wrestling haters. Neither Hulkmania nor the Attitude Era drew them in. Yet somehow, someway, Will, Boo, and I got them hooked on wrestling in 2001, of all years. No Mercy 2001 is the first show I can remember Bryan & Jeff watching with the rest of us.

We'd discuss the wrestlers and explain things to the two newbies, who to their credit, dove right in. One time I said something like "Wrestling is actually on a bit of a downward slide right now. But it'll pick up once Triple H comes back." Then us 3 longtime fans explained the greatness of Triple H. This was before everything was readily available online. I had wrestling tapes, but never bothered to show them to Jeff & Bryan until much later (with just Bryan). So Triple H got built up in their heads as the be all and end all of professional wrestling. Which, to be fair, he already was to Boo, Will, and I.

Vengeance 2001 had Wrestlemania level hype because we thought HHH was returning. I remember being SO bummed out when he didn't. We all were. Whatta waste of dimes! My first thought whenever that show is brought up will never be the night Jericho beat Austin & Rock, but the show where HHH DIDN'T return.

But the wait was worth it. The Raw a few weeks later where HHH finally did come back had BIGGER THAN WRESTLEMANIA hype. Iirc the 5 of us literally requested off work to watch it (we all worked nights at a restaurant after previously working another job together). We popped just as hard as the crowd when the moment months in the making finally arrived. I remember an impressed Bryan remarking upon the speed of HHH's rapid fire punches. 

HHH's denim & leather is a GOAT level look. 🤯 knows this too.

*This post is running looooooong. So I'm gonna wrap it relatively quickly.

Aside from the night of his glorious return, HHH wasn't the same. It soon became obvious. But I stuck with him much longer than most due to residual goodwill. It wasn't until my 2000 dream match with RVD at Unforgiven 2002 disappointed with the "wrong" finish that I really started turning on Trips.

I hated the Reign of Doom like everybody else. He fought boring wrestlers in boring matches and always won. It was brutal. In a related note, I knew Boo was going off wrestling for good when he wore his once-beloved HHH shirt to paint the house he had moved into with Jeff and another guy named Adam circa September 2003.

But I came back around on him when he did the job to Benoit at WM 20. All I wanted was for him to occasionally lose. Preferably to somebody I actually liked. He did. And we were cool again. HHH's Evolution faction carried Raw for about a year. The Batista feud had great storytelling and one great match. 

2006 DX was terrible. Despite hating the original version of DX, I was weirdly hyped for the DX revival. But their first match against the Spirit Squad killed it for me, and it only got worse from there. 

But I came back around on HHH when he returned at Summerslam 2007 and he was teflon after that. The more people online bashed him, the harder my contrarian self dug in as a HHH defender. 

I think he's probably a Top 10 wrestler in WWE History.

Bottom of the barrel executive though. I have no choice but to blame him for NXT and what WWE has devolved into. How is it a WWF System guy like Trips ended up becoming such an indie geek?? More HHH/HOG, less boring crossfitter vs. bland flipper, please.

Once again I refer to the Best Matches of 2000s List I made near the end of the last decade. HHH was among the leaders in number of matches and was #1 in points.

#17 Owen Hart
10 Votes-339 Points
High Vote: #2
Last Time: #16





#18 Christian
11 Votes-310 Points
One #1 Vote
Last Time: #61

Christian was my #1.

Like many, I thought the Brood was an interesting faction, and that the breakout ladder match between the Hardys and Edge and Christian was spectacular. 

It wasn’t until Christian became a singles wrestler did I start to notice his amazing ring skill and charisma. It was on some random episode of Sunday Night Heat, DDP vs. Christian (before their Wrestlemania match) did I start rooting for the guy. I never understood the appeal of Edge over Christian, and why it seemed like one got all these chances and pushed to the moon, while the better wrestler got left behind. 

Then, in 2005, he exploded in popularity. I remember how proud I was to see his t-shirt be the #1 seller on WWE.com. And as much as the crowd loved him and forced the WWE to use him more, it also began to feel like they were intentionally sabotaging him. I remember how pissed I was to see him lose so often, deflating crowd interest. When he went to TNA, I followed, and I have Christian to thank for making me see a different wrestling organization and a different crop of talent. His years in TNA were what he should have had in WWE- world title reigns, high caliber main events and feuds, and later on putting over new talent (like his ladder match against Kazarian). 

When the rumors put him on a path back to WWE, I was hopeful. Then, on a random episode of ECW... it’s...it’s Christian. He was immediately put into the background again. 

Which was fine, because it was similar to his TNA run in a way- Christian leading his own show, with main events and great feuds against Dreamer and Regal, and I got to see Zack Ryder come into his own. When ECW ended... he was placed on the periphery again. The big match against Edge? A random, quick match on an episode of Raw, unannounced during an Edge/Orton feud, and Undertaker quickly tombstones Edge after he beat Christian. 

So while Edge being forced to retire when he did was tragic- it opened the door to Christian’s long overdue recognition and spotlight. The image of him pressing his face against that World title belt when he won the ladder match is burned into my mind- the idea that sometimes, people do get the respect and revelry they deserve. 

He would lose the belt within a week. 

I was very proud of the online backlash, but more pissed that it could’ve been avoided. He had a great feud with Orton over the summer, had a great leadership role in the “walkout”, and after returning from injury, was given an Intercontinental title run. I was sad to see his career cut short, as well as the zero fanfare he got for his career when he left. But the fans, and me, still push for that deserved Hall of Fame spot.

Yay Voxtz !!!

I thought I would for sure be the high vote for Christian at #5 so I am pleased to see someone else regarded him even higher than myself. My love for Christian knows no bounds. Rogue knows this to be true. While Edge often gets the recognition, it's because the system backed him and not Christian in the split (much like Matt and Jeff Hardy). Christian was not meant to get over like he did and when he did they kept him in the midcard despite the fans wanting to see him in the Main Event. He really had no choice but to go to TNA when he did, but he did so without trashing anyone or burning any bridges so that he could eventually return to WWE. Like Voxtz I actually followed him to TNA. How could I not? They gave him the ball when WWE would not and he did great things with it. Upon his return to WWE, he had a memorable feud with Orton and they gave the fans our happy moment for a week before shitting all over him again. They kept pushing him down and he kept rising and then he retired without fanfare. He's made appearances and of course there's the E&C show but has been notoriously absent in the WWE HoF while HHH's buddies get their 2nd rings.

I have met Jay/Christian on more than one occasion. He is wonderful. He recognized me the 2nd or 3rd time (Rogue might remember) when we were in line and called me 'Edmonton' and made a disparaging comment about the Oilers and of course I returned a 'big talk for someone who supports the Toronto Maple Leafs' (sorry RT ).

At any rate, I adore Christian. I loved The Unprettier. He should be in the Hall of Fame.

iron maiden that Leafs dig is well-earned. No team can suck for that long and not be the butt of all jokes.

As a Leafs fan, I try very, very hard not to talk down about any other teams. There's a few I'll rip on now because the Leafs are #ActuallyGood again, but even still...until they win it all, I'm just going to try and stay quiet.

...

I had Christian at #33. I always loved him as a partner with Edge, then he showed that he was a very capable singles competitor too, something I don't think anyone saw coming. And the fact that he's one of the funniest people to ever wrestle, AND grew up just a short drive from my hometown, what's not to like?

Love Owen/Hart , greatest feel of my earliest memories watching wrestling up against Bret Hart. One of the true wrestlers who could do it all and go anywhere on the card and be believable. I love how he would phase in and out of main event feuds with Bret , go down the card but be able to come back up at any time. His heel work is great.

Christian is pretty blah and I've always thought his nickname Captain Charisma was pure irony as I don't see an ounce of it. He was great alongside Edge and the two together were gold - seperated I found him to be just another guy who benefited from the shallow rosters and brand split.

Jun 8, 2020 18:45:21 GMT UT said:

Yo momma.  :suspic: