Christian’s was super over on the boards and in the ruthless aggression area not surprised to see him ranked this high. When I went to a WWE show in Newcastle (AU) there was a guy with a “I spent $400 to see Christian” sign.

I was so annoyed when he lost the title back to Orton.

Jun 8, 2020 14:45:02 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Owen Hart - 34 / I was a little surprised to not see him fall higher

CHRISTIAN! CHRISTIAN! AT LAST YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN... EXCEPT FOR OWEN!

I was a huuuuuuuuuuge Christian fan throughout his career. Heard Jay is kind of a dick compared to Edge, so I used to feel bad how their careers went and how Vince thinks he's ugly (allegedly) but I can kinda see it in a way. Dude did not have the good in the upper body. He had sharp style and I wanted to dress like him, but man once he was in ring gear it just didn't work shirtless. Still despite being booked like an absolute bitch as a heel during 2001/2003 (going to ridiculous lengths to make him a coward) I was rooting for him hard. 2005 I like many in the IWC were absolutely begging for him to get to the top. He was over like rover too. But Vince gonna Vince so instead of a program with Cena, he's lumped in a triple threat and then the singles goes to Jericho.

At the time I remember this weird WWE.com article about >C< contemplating his future and I think it included a picture of him looking sad at the arena from his rental car. May have been a blog from Christian himself. Then BAM he's in TNA. He was booked strong and had IIRC 2 world title runs, but even they didn't fully get behind him. Came back to WWECW and that was his "run" so to speak. I adore WWECW and may do a seperate thread on that, but he was a big reason why. I imagine this is what they had in mind for Benoit when he was supposed to go there.  NXT before NXT basically.

Hated how they pulled the rug out with the Randy loss. Also kinda hated how his WHC win was basically a Rey/Eddy situation where he only won it because Edge retired. I'm not even convinced it really happened. All these pics are clearly shopped!

Christian is all personality and character to me. Not including TLCs and multi-man car crashes I don't think anyone has ever recommended a Christian match. I liked vs. Jericho @ 20, but that's about it. Maybe the RVD ladder match for the IC belt, but again... car crash.

Owen is kind of a similar deal. May go in depth for both guys on PW News as this post is getting long.

Owen was my #22. Maybe a little high on retrospect, but he is someone I always enjoyed when he was around, top, middle or bottom of the card. He was never great on the mic, but he had a fun personality and his lack of polish on the mic made him feel more real.

Christian did not come close to making my list, but I did always prefer him to Edge (I also always preferred Matt as I never understood Jeff's junkie charisma that everyone bangs on about). He did lack a good look, made worse by looking worse than your tag partner. The short hair was far better, but he never seemed to get attire that looked like a top guy. I still find Vince thinking he was tremendously ugly and wanting to put a dot over his face funny. He had a poor finisher (terrible set up, terrible name), but his ring work overall was always solid. I haven't seen enough his pimped WWECW stuff and I had checked out of TNA just as fast as I'd checked in, so didn't really see much of his run there.

I keep forgetting that I want to make this point about Piper. I fucking HATE HATE HATE the voices that he will go into. It isn't Adam Sandler levels of baby punching, but even in his great stuff in the mid-80s, he can just at any moment start doing some stupid inflections/accent thing and it is change the channel heat for me. I think it is why I don't really think of him as a top, top, top mic worker when he should be. If he just did his normal voice, I'd be loving it.

I had Christian at 14 on my list.

It's obviously no secret that of the two, I am an Edge fan but that doesn't mean I don't like Christian, I love the guy and I think he's completely underrated. He should have got a long run with that title and I'm still salty that he never got what he deserved in terms of a world title run. He is LONG overdue to go into the Hall of Fame, far as I'm concerned he could go in twice, as E&C and on his own merits. He's great on the mic, completely charismatic and solid in the ring. The Unprettier is one of the better finishes in the business, in my opinion.

Owen I had low-ish on my list. His story is tragic as we all know and I would love to know what he could have done given the chance.

Christian is alright. He's a good promo, very good in the ring, but nothing about him stands out to me. He's a solid 5/10 wrestler. Nothing I've ever seen from Christian has wowed me, whether it be a match or a promo. But he's never bad, either. You're guaranteed a certain level of quality, and I think that is a sign of an extremely competent wrestler, one who can be counted on to deliver the goods in any sitaution. I feel the same about Regal, except Regal excels at character and promo work, whereas for me, Christian doesn't really excel at anything. He has a good, original sense of humour, but it's quite understated, and while it'd often get a chuckle out of me it never really worked in the bombastic world of sports entertainment. There's a reason why Edge was so much more successful: he had the more outlandish, more sports entertainment character, and he was very good at it.

For these reason I couldn't relate to the IWC hype train that backed Christian throughout the mid-2000s, and eventually led to a memorable World Championship run. Good for him. I never got it, and I never will get it, but the dude had a big fanbase and it was certainly long overdue.

One of the better botches tbh.

Jun 8, 2020 21:14:59 GMT Emperor said:

Christian is alright. He's a good promo, very good in the ring, but nothing about him stands out to me. He's a solid 5/10 wrestler. Nothing I've ever seen from Christian has wowed me, whether it be a match or a promo. But he's never bad, either. You're guaranteed a certain level of quality, and I think that is a sign of an extremely competent wrestler, one who can be counted on to deliver the goods in any sitaution. I feel the same about Regal, except Regal excels at character and promo work, whereas for me, Christian doesn't really excel at anything. He has a good, original sense of humour, but it's quite understated, and while it'd often get a chuckle out of me it never really worked in the bombastic world of sports entertainment. There's a reason why Edge was so much more successful: he had the more outlandish, more sports entertainment character, and he was very good at it.

For these reason I couldn't relate to the IWC hype train that backed Christian throughout the mid-2000s, and eventually led to a memorable World Championship run. Good for him. I never got it, and I never will get it, but the dude had a big fanbase and it was certainly long overdue.

Yo momma too.

And Strobe's and anyone else who doesn't love Christian.  Ya bunch of...wonderful people with bad taste.

I was actually trying to say that I like Christian, just not enough to come close to my list, but I always seem to find it easier to point out weaknesses rather than discuss strengths. Or rather, it's more fun to.

Agreed. I too find it much easier to mention the negatives and talk about them in detail. Usually the good things are obvious to everyone so they kinda go without saying.

I didn't have much attachment to Owen. I got into wrestling just towards the end of his career (late 98) so he was mostly doing nothing at the time. I did cry about the death though. For some reason it kinda hit me hard, maybe it was just seeing someone I had been watching and obsessing about (business in general) no longer being around. And I was just in middle/high so I hadn't really lost anyone at that point.

Back during his run I really loved his 94 stuff especially WMX. I don't see him as world champ outside of a thank you run when they had 2+ world titles. Would've been nice to see someone truly leave the business on their own terms. I'm sure he would've made random appearances, but also could've seen him do a Molly Holly deal where we see them 1-2x, but mostly disappear.

I'm glad Voxtz chimed in to write about his #1, Christian.

Always get a kick out of iron maiden & Rogue stories about meeting wrestlers. Are there any wrestlers you two haven't met?   How do you meet so many? Conventions? Wrestlemania weekend?

I'm with Strobe on Piper and his annoying voices. I too intended to mention that earlier.

I was the high vote for Owen at #2 and had Christian at a respectable #36.

@ness when you mentioned Christian's "sharp style" were you referring to the puffy shirts he wore during his Brood days? *urge to post Seinfeld clip rising*

I got lost in Storytiming and didn't really cover what made HHH great at his best and terrible at his worst. So here it goes. He excelled in brawls. He was a good bumper and a great bleeder who had a knack for what I call "epic selling" to really get over the idea that he was in a war. This dates all the way back to his Hog Pen Match with Godwinn and really came out any time he was in the ring with Foley. Also had a great finisher in the Pedigree. I liked his knee based offense. He was infinitely less good in "technical matches" with most of them becoming a chore to get through once they reach the 10 minute mark. About the only times he hit the mark here were against Benoit at No Mercy 2000 and Bryan at Wrestlemania. As Strobe mentioned, he had a lot of failed epics. Probably more than anybody tbh. His promos were a mixed bag. He could have used an editor most of the time. Great heel, particularly in 00-01. Not so good as a face, though I will give him credit for his 98 DX run (even though I personally hated it). Had excellent pairings with both Chyna & Steph, but Michaels & HHH bring out the worst in each other when aligned on screen.

I always enjoyed Christian's sense of style when he'd be on screen in non-wrestling clothes. Probably because it covered his lack of physique. When he'd be shirtless or come out in the sleeveless monthly merch with his noodle arms I just couldn't.

Should also mention I've always thought Christian had good theme music. Brood doesn't count as a win for him, but that was great. His heel opera one was amazing. I like the one he settled on and even the weird choice in an instrumental Evanescence song in TNA was great.

Jun 9, 2020 0:41:47 GMT Baker said:

I'm glad Voxtz chimed in to write about his #1, Christian.

Always get a kick out of iron maiden & Rogue stories about meeting wrestlers. Are there any wrestlers you two haven't met?   How do you meet so many? Conventions? Wrestlemania weekend?

Thanks, I can't talk for maiden (although I know she goes to a lot of local wrestling shows and has met a few wrestlers theres)

For me, its'a mix of Wrestlemania weekend, and conventions.  Maiden and I have done 4 Manias together and we usually get the package deal which includes WM Axxess  and there it's a case of walking round and seeing who is signing.  We have been very lucky with who we've met, once a very new Daniel Bryan as nobody seemed to know who he was at that point as he'd just signed, I believe.  This was before the Nexus stuff.  

I also do a LOT of conventions, the big one I go to is London Film and Comic Con which is usually in the summer and they usually have quite a few wrestling guests there.  That's where I met Edge and Christian together and got that epic photo.  Last summer was Vickie and Chavo Guerrero, and I think Rey?  I could be wrong as I didn't meet him because I'd met him already - he's lovely, for the record.  Year before was Mark Henry and Jim Ross, both were very nice.  So I've met quite a few wrestlers yes, but there's also a lot I haven't met yet.

There's a wrestling convention started here and I'm seriously considering going one year, they work with WWE and they get amazing guests.  Also non-WWE too, this year they have Kenny Omega coming.  If it goes ahead, that is. 

Owen Hart is an excellent example of showing restraint in the business. Owen was an incredible athlete and the moves he could hit in Stampede were out of this world. He hung with every junior heavyweight in Japan and in some cases left them for dead. When he eventually got the call up to the WWF and started doing the Blue Blazer gimmick, he wasn't trying to fit in as many dives as he could. Instead Owen would find a way to show off his athleticism whether it was the bum flip or that hangspring maneuver and make it work in the context of a competitive match.

In a lot of ways, being a lower mid-carder ended up being a blessing because when it came time to do the feud with Bret he was able to showcase all these moves nobody knew he could hit and actually had a point about being the best Hart brother. Now, it's been awhile since I've seen HHH/Bryan, but it would have to just about be the greatest match of all-time to trump Owen-Bret on that stage. What an incredible well thought out match.

Owen is one of those guys who you'd want on your roster. He wouldn't sell out the Skydome, but he'd heat whatever guy you wanted and you'd never have to worry about him bombing on the big stage.

In a lot of ways, I feel Christian took that mantle from Owen. He didn't receive the accolades of Edge, but he was always held in high regard by the fans. Christian himself would tell you he had no offence. When he came back to the WWE in 2009, he actually had to come up with spots because he was usually feeding for the heels. Still, even without this amazing spots, Christian could have a good match with anybody because he was so good at the finer details.

When he returned to the WWE and became a fixture as the ECW Champion he had everybody convinced Jack Swagger was the next Brock Lesnar based on their series of matches. It was actually a remarkable year for Christian as he'd face all these up and comers like Zack Ryder, Yoshi Tatsu, Ezekiel Jackson etc. and make them look a lot better than what they were.

It's no small feat considering how unorthodox he was in the ring. The WWE is irish-whip based offence, whereas Christian was usually based his offence off the turnbuckle or in and around the ropes. Nothing he did would make a compilation, but it was so different to what everyone else was doing it would entertain the fans never the less.

As a persona, I feel Christian was one of the few guys who was able to make the self-depricative humour work for them. It could have been a turn off, yet Christian was able to parlay it into a couple of World Championship runs late in his career.

What helps as well is that Christian retired when he was still on top of his game with very little fanfare. It just came out that he had post concussion syndrome after a pretty enjoyable run in 2014 and that was that.

Before Edge decided to return, the E and C pod was my favourite pod with the Brian Gerwitz episode in particular being a classic.

36. Christian (#18)- I first became aware of Christian Cage and his awesomely named friend Sexton Hardcastle via the Apter Mags.

Christian ended Taka's lengthy WWF Light Heavyweight Championship reign in his debut and was.....alright. The Brood was pretty cool in a 3rd tier fave sort of way. I liked E&C as workrate babyfaces raising the bar alongside the Hardys & Dudleys, but preferred the other two teams. I turned on E&C when they turned heel. For whatever reason, I was a very traditional "root for the babyfaces/boo the heels" fan during the first half of 2000. E&C got on my nerves. Yet halfway through the year I pulled a switcheroo where I suddenly loved E&C (and HHH), though I didn't necessarily turn on the Hardys (and Rock). I just all of a sudden preferred their heel rivals. Anyway, E&C were good in the ring and hilarious sports entertainers. Bought an E&C shirt. Regularly quoted them. Loved all their TLC/Ladder Matches. They were great. I convinced myself Hardys vs. E&C was the Rock & Roll vs. Midnights of my generation, only with cooler moves.

Kilgore and others have stated Christian took all the big bumps and was the funnier member of the iconic duo. Enough people have mentioned this over the years that I assume it is accurate. Yet I did not realize this in real time. I always saw Edge as the Michaels of the team with a bright future, while Christian was destined to become a midcard Jannetty.

Yet I was Team Christian all the way during their split. Simply because he was the far more entertaining guy. Plus he had that glorious opera-style intro to his theme. OK, I'm pretty sure that theme was the main reason I preferred him to Edge. I was also weirdly into Christian's feud with DDP over the European Title. That was solid midcard sports entertainment.

But I lost interest in him after that. The UnAmericans sucked. The CLB stuff was awful and super forced. One of the first times I recall being turned off by WWE really trying way too hard to make something stupid into a thing. His team with Jericho was....there. They were perfectly cromulent foils for BookDust. Jericho/Christian was a well booked feud with a good 'Mania match. But it didn't really grab my attention due to a lack of interest in both (really all 3) performers. Jericho & Trish were kind of alright and Christian was kind of not alright. Meh. It was a fine midcard program, but I have less nostalgia for it than most. It was during the Jericho feud where Christian first started getting a big internet following. I didn't really get it. He was nothing more than a good hand who was "annoying" in the bad way. Until...

I saw him live at a Raw taping in November 2004. It was actually a Heat match with Christian & Tomko vs. Rhino & Tajiri. That's when I came around on Christian. He had "it." It's one of those things that's hard to explain. But just the way he dressed with the hoodie, carried himself, and looked out to the crowd made him come across like a total superstar. He had presence. He was also the first "star" we saw that night. So he got a big ovation for that reason. Really one of the biggest all night. I have to disagree with UT for besmirching his "Captain Charisma" nickname. He oozed charisma in that one live experience.

Yet even then I didn't LOVE him the way his fanboys did. He was more of a solid 2nd tier favorite. Iirc good Raw matches with Michaels & Orton soon followed. Then he started a slow burn program with Cena, which included Christian's rapping lighting up the IWC. I wasn't even THAT big of a Christian fan, but I think they did him dirty by not doing a one on one match with Cena at some PPV. I mean, they had built it up for so long....only to insert Jericho and make it a Triple Threat at the last minute. Boo! That's why I couldn't blame Christian for leaving a few months later.

But before we get there, I was hyped for Christian being drafted to Smackdown, which I watched much more than Raw by this point for a variety of reasons. I remember being hyped for a potential Benoit vs. Christian feud over the US Title. That would have been a really cool midcard thing. Alas, it never came to fruition, and Christian soon justifiably left the company.

I paid a little more attention than usual to TNA in the wake of Christian's jump. But I lost interest pretty quickly. Christian wasn't doing much for me as their top good guy. I'd only watch sporadically over the next few years, but I did see enough to know Christian made a much better heel. His little group with AJ as the clueless putz & Tomko as the bruiser was a lot of fun. I was into that stable for a few months. Albeit not enough to actually remember their name  :lol:  I recall really liking a Christian vs. Joe match for their championship. 

Then he resigned with WWF. I was excited for a Christian return. He was rumored to be revealed as the guy who attacked Jeff Hardy via rogue pyrotechnic display. But WWE went in a different direction, giving the lame reason "too many people expected Christian." In reality, the writing was already on the wall that WWE still didn't care about poor Christian. 

Yet he sucked it up and made the most of his situation by becoming the babyface workhorse of WWECW. Now I was all in on Christian. He was my favorite wrestler in 2009. To be fair, this WAS the year I went off wrestling. But Christian was the best of a bad lot. And he carried a bunch of jabronies to the best matches of their careers. I'd seek his stuff out on Youtube. The Tommy Dreamer feud just might have been the last wrestling thing I was invested in before going off it completely for a few years. This was the most consistently good run of his career imo. It's also what boosted him onto my list. Albeit probably 10 spots too high.

I missed his Championship run in 2011 but I'm glad he got his moment in the spotlight. Dude earned a "thank you" run by being a solid hand in the fed for over a decade. Christian retiring unceremoniously and still not being in the WWE Hall of Fame is a perfect summation of his career. I think he's slightly overrated by fans, but terribly underappreciated by the powers that be. 

The Blue Dot stuff is simultaneously awful and hilarious. I'd love to see the inner workings of Vince's mind. I would be so there for a Vince's Brain sitcom in the style of Herman's Head.

Final Thoughts- Christian is the kind of guy any promotion would be lucky to have. Good in the ring. Good on the mic. Charismatic. Team player. Funny. Effective as both a heel and a babyface. He's the prototypical 'good hand' midcard/upper midcard type. That's not a knock! Main Eventers only comprise a small part of any wrestling show. You need Christian types to effectively fill out a card. 

2. Owen Hart (#17)- Let's begin at the end. Owen's death is the most tragic moment in wrestling history. Nothing else even comes close for me. I was watching when it happened and spent the next day or two walking around in a daze. Owen's death honestly affected more than the deaths of some people I knew in real life. I suppose that's pretty messed up, but I am nothing if not honest (well, aside from making up the occasional fictional cartoon). Owen wasn't just any old wrestler to me. He was one of the main reasons I watched this stuff. If you take the entire time period into account, I liked Owen more than any other wrestler from Wrestlemania 10-Wrestlemania 14. He was in my Top 3 that entire time. This period encompasses the peak years of my fandom. Which explains why Owen finished a lofty #2 on my list.

But I wasn't always an Owen Hart fan. The Blue Blazer was a forgettable low carder. Then I glimpsed him once or twice during his brief and little known WCW run. Then he donned those silly baggy pants to team with Anvil & Koko in two duos that went nowhere. Then he spent a year or so as the member of the WWF roster I was most likely to forget existed. His only role seemed to be getting beat up by the guy Bret was feuding with to add heat to the Bret vs. Whoever feud. Owen was very much the Aldo/Holly of 1993 WWF.

Then he started teasing a heel turn on Bret and I started paying attention. He became interesting for the first time. Then he JUSTIFIABLY turned heel on Bret in a tag title match with The Quebecers due to Bret being too damn selfish. Now I was a full fledged Owen fan. Yet I still pretty much viewed him as a glorified jobber. But at least he had become an entertaining and interesting low carder. I figured Bret would easily dispatch his pesky younger brother at Wrestlemania before losing to "The Chosen One" Lex Luger. Boy was I wrong. Owen won! Defeating Bret in a classic confrontation to kick off Wrestlemania X. Then Bret won the WWF Championship later that evening. Setting the Hart Brothers on a collision course with destiny....

Owen then won KOTR. In the process he gained The Anvil as an ally in what I thought was a brilliant touch. Owen wasn't quite my favorite wrestler going into KOTR (though he was close) simply because I remember pulling for Double J to win. But I was totally fine with Owen winning. And I was all in on "The King of Harts" from here on out. He was now my #1 guy.

The Bret/Owen feud was brilliantly booked. I believe I had it at #4 when we did our Greatest Feuds Countdown. I'm not sure younger fans realize just how ballsy it was. Owen was a nobody before this feud. Yet WWF had confidence in him. They pushed him to the moon and it never once felt forced. Owen excelled in his new role as the snotty younger brother. It was also easy to see things from his perspective. He really was Bret's overlooked "shadow." He may have been a jerk, but he was not wrong. I think those types make the best sort of heels. 

This all lead to the famous Owen vs. Bret cage match at Summerslam 1994. Owen had beat Bret on the very night Bret won the WWF Championship. Owen had won KOTR just as Bret did the previous year. For those reasons, I could buy into Owen defeating his brother once again. And if he did, it would prove that he was indeed better than Bret. Another win would solidify him once and for all as the true King of Harts. Owen lost a polarizing bout filled with great storytelling but maybe not enough action. A great postmatch angle insured the feud would continue.

Then Owen screwed Bret out of the WWF Championship against Mr. Bob Backlund in an all time great heel performance. 

It wasn't until I joined PW that I learned the Bret/Owen blowoff was a little known, ho hum Raw match in March 1995. They also had an Action Zone match in September 94 that I have not seen. They deserved a bigger platform to end this all timer of a feud. Another thing I liked about this feud was the way they weaved other guys like Bulldog, Anvil, and Mr. Backlund in and out. I also liked how it felt as if it could flare up again at any given time with just the slightest provocation.

Owen followed the Bret feud up by introducing Yokozuna as his mystery partner at Wrestlemania 11 simply because he was the guy who once beat Bret for the WWF Championship. So Owen. So great. Owen & Yoko won the tag titles in their tag team debut. Owen also gained my man Jim Cornette as a manager in the process.

Owen & Yoko were a fun big/little team with Yoko doing the kayfabe work and Owen coming in to claim the glory in true Owen fashion. Things really heated up in August when they added Bulldog to the mix and became a proper stable- the great Camp Cornette.

The Owen/Michaels Raw match where Michaels collapsed was a classic angle. That was one of the earliest worked shoots I can remember seeing. My friends and I were super invested in it, often debating whether or not it was real. This got Owen's enzigu enzigi back brain kick over as a lethal maneuver. Owen gloated about this, which incurred the wrath of HBK's bff Diesel. Then Owen beat Diesel! On a technicality, which made it even better. Owen didn't gloat about this nearly enough. It should have lead to a high profile rematch imo. Then came the big HBK/Owen showdown with a ticket to the Wrestlemania main event on the line. I was probably more invested in this match than anybody else on planet earth. It was my 2nd or 3rd favorite against my least favorite WWF wrestler and I talked myself into the possibility of Owen winning. He didn't. Good match though! Owen & HBK had great chemistry. Sort of the Rey/Angle of their day in that they wrestled a step faster than everybody else in the company. Check out their November 95 and December 97 Raw matches + the IYH February 96 match I just mentioned for further proof.

Speaking of good wrestling, this was around the time I started paying more attention to in ring ability. I genuinely thought Owen was a better wrestler than Bret simply because he had cooler moves. He was also smooth as silk in the ring. Really the smoothest I had ever seen until Malenko showed up in WCW a few months later. I thought Owen was the best wrestler in WWF, period. His brother's "excellence of execution" moniker could easily have been applied to Owen. GOAT spinning heel kick. GOAT back brain kick. To this day I still don't know how he managed to flawlessly execute that belly to belly on a running opponent. That move looks like crap from anybody else. Yet it's pure poetry when executed by Owen. I also loved his "Owen Hart style" top rope dropkick. Again, don't care for that move from anybody else, but it's gold when Owen does it. He also had a deep arsenal of suplexes, other flying maneuvers, and cool mid range maneuvers like the DDT & Rude Awakening. Another thing I always got a kick out of was Jerry Lawler's "Owen invented that move!" commentary shtick. You just know I played that up to my friends in real life. Another running gag was my brother (our only true Owen hater iirc) calling him "The Rocket" to get under my skin. "Stop calling him by his jobber name! His proper title is The King of Harts!"- 95-96 Baker.

The only thing Owen was bad at were simple punches and stomps. Even in real time I'd mock Owen (and Bulldog's) silly clubbering. They'd stomp the mat with all this force while throwing these dainty little blows. Yet even that undeniable crap still kinda sorta worked on me in a "so bad it's good" way. I couldn't help but chuckle.

I also enjoyed Owen on the mic more than most. I get the impression Owen's best promos came hyping house show matches on seldom watched Superstars. I always thought Owen was an above average promo and was quite surprised when I first discovered most people did not share my correct opinion. 

Camp Cornette went from great to greater when they upgraded from the great Yokozuna to the greater Vader. I loved all things Camp Cornette. They were HBK's most persistent foes during his 1996 WWF championship reign. I'd always super excited for any Camp Cornette 6 man tag. Like when they beat Jake/Ahmed/Yoko at 'Mania, or defeated Sid/Shawn/Ahmed at IYH July.

Owen picked up a Slammy and a cast during this stretch. In true Owen fashion, he got a lot of mileage out of both props.

For Owen was a getter of professional wrestler.... a heel's heel in the style of Jacques Rougeau. But even better than the magnificent Mountie. Like Jacques, Owen seemed to get such a kick out of being a bad guy. He was a jerk with a twinkle in his eye. One all time great heel moment from early in Owen's run came when he gave a young fan his sunglasses in the style of Bret. Then he snapped them against this kid's face! I've never been able to find video of this. But I swear it happened! Yet, despite his undeniable greatness, I can't even say Owen had a knack for getting under people's skin. See, I naturally assumed my Bret-loving associates would be Owen haters. So Rick or Cousin would be like "Bret Hart is my favorite wrestler." Then I'd get my stupid little smirk and be all "Oh yeah. Well, Owen is my favorite wrestler!" Fully expecting an argument to ensue. Swerve! They'd reply with "That's cool. I like Owen too." Mind blown! 1995 me just could not comprehend how somebody could like Bret AND Owen. Are you also a fan of the Cowboys AND 49ers? UNC AND Duke? Miami AND Florida St? Orioles AND Blue Jays? Bulls AND Knicks? Pick a side, ya damn fence sitters!

Then came the awesome Owen & Bulldog tag team, who were my #5 both times we did a Favorite Tag Teams Countdown. They had this one awesome taunt my friend Rick and I co-opted for real life usage, with me naturally being "The Owen." Their team followed the Owen/Yoko formula with Bulldog doing most of the kayfabe heavy lifting before tagging in Owen so he could get the glory. They had a cool PPV match with the Gunns in Philly where the crowd sided with Owen & Bulldog. Loved seeing that. Same thing happened when they wrestled Fake Diesel & Fake Razor a few months later on PPV. 

Then came a stable even better than Camp Cornette in the Hart Foundation. Loved them! And the best part was Owen never went crawling back to Bret as I had predicted he would for over 2 years. Nope! Bret needed him. So in my admittedly biased mind, this meant Owen actually won the feud. Oh, he also had the GOAT Raw match with Bulldog right before the Hart Foundation got together. Then he played an integral role in my favorite match of all time- the Canadian Stampede 10 Man Tag. Or as I sometimes call it, The Redemption of Owen Hart.

He also won another Slammy and became a double champ by winning the IC Title while still holding the tag straps with Bulldog. They might as well have called him "All Gold" Owen Hart.

Then he broke Austin's neck with a botched piledriver. Look, I realize how messed up this is, but I wanted an Owen 3:16 shirt soooo bad. I thought it was the greatest wrestling shirt ever made. 

Bret getting screwed was my choice for most tragic moment in wrestling history until Owen's death. It lead to some very serious real life soul searching. So nobody was happier than me when Owen returned as a vengeful babyface out to settle a score with the biggest jerk on the planet in WWF, the hated Shawn Michaels. I was super into Owen as a babyface gunning for HBK's tainted title. In fact, my very first AOL was SnOwen- a portmanteau of my two favorite wrestlers- Owen Hart & Al Snow. This would have been February or March 1998. Forget Michaels/Austin. Michaels/Owen for the belt with Owen going over was the WM 14 main event I wanted.

But Owen got screwed over and had to settle for European Title feud with HHH. Which he lost. Stupid WWF.

Not long after that I started losing interest in Owen. He just didn't fit in anymore. That's not to say I ever turned on him. Perish the thought! Owen was one of a select group (maybe a half dozen) of teflon guys who I would never, ever turn on. He had years of residual goodwill built up. But the magic was gone. He weirdly joined the Nation. Became a Nugget and started dressing like a stupid caution sign. Had a feud with dull Ken Shamrock which at least resulted in one good match. Then became the Blue Blazer. Yawn. Even his team with fellow longtime Baker lifer Jeff Jarrett didn't really excite me all that much. Great as they were, those two just didn't fit in anymore. With that being said, they'd likely be a Top 5 all time Baker team had they joined forces any time between 94-97. 

Then came the most tragic moment in wrestling history.

RIP Owen Hart.

#15 Kurt Angle
13 Votes-401 Points
High Vote: #6
Last Time: #12



#16 Brock Lesnar
9 Votes-386 Points
One #1 Vote
Last Time: #14

Brock Lesnar (#6)
I was honestly expecting Lesnar to sneak into the Top 10. I know 🤯 's list contained Lesnar at least 25 times. I guess Baker just decided to count the highest placement and ignore all the other scores.

Lesnar was certainly a marvel to watch when he first came on the scene in 2002, but he was never one of my favourite wrestlers. That came much later, during his second WWE run. I remember Lesnar's initial return in 2012. He went through that MMA-inspired Kimura phase where OH MY GAWD HE BROKE TRIPLE H'S ARM! HE BROKE SHAWN MICHAEL'S ARM!!!! I thought the arm breaking stuff was really hokey and didn't make a lot of sense. This was my least favourite Lesnar phase.

I stopped watching WWE in 2014, shortly after Wrestlemania 30. If you recall, Wrestlemania 30 was one of the darkest days in wrestling history. Brock Lesnar ended the streak. Shocked reaction gifs flooded the internet. Was this the end of WWE as we know it?

No, it wasn't. But streak-ender Brock Lesnar became a changed man. He pinned The Undertaker after three F5s, and something clicked inside of Brock. He realised the secret to wrestling was just to hit your finisher a lot. You don't need to waste your time with side headlocks and forearms smashes and kicks and rest holds and body slams. Go for the finisher out of the gate. Lesnar had the strength and ferocity to do this. Having unlocked the secret of pro-wrestling, as Goldberg did so many years before, Lesnar became a phenomenon. He faced John Cena at Summerslam in that famous squash with sixteen German suplexes. It was a marvel to watch. I had never seen anything like it. It was a bold move, but one that worked perfectly with me.

The alert reader may notice that I said I stopped watching WWE at Wrestlemania 30. So what the hell was I doing watching Brock Lesnar vs John Cena, Summerslam 2014? Well, I saw the reactions, probably on PW, and checked the match out for myself.

I instantly fell in love. This incarnation of Brock Lesnar is the reason he is #6 on my list.

You see, my opinion of WWE from 2014 onwards is extremely low. Almost everything is bad. But there is one constant that keeps me coming back. Brock Lesnar. Ever since that Cena squash, I made a point of watching every single Brock Lesnar match. I even sought out his rare house show appearances. There was one against Sheamus, and I think another against Bray Wyatt (pre-Fiend). Since his appearances were sporadic, it didn't occupy that much of my time. He keeps me coming back to a company I hate. I go out of my way to watch Lesnar more than any other wrestler. This cannot be understated. And he delivers. Every. Single. Time.

His appeal is that his matches are so different from anything else. Every main event match you see in every company is the same formula. Back and forth action, building to a crescendo, trade a bunch of big moves and near falls, then some kind of finish. That stuff is great a lot of the time. But Lesnar offers something completely different. It's the same reason I love Zack Sabre Jr. so much. He's one of a kind, and he's made his unique style work on the highest level.

No other wrestler wrestles that Lesnar match, and that is super compelling. Brock's opponents have to play ball and try to survive. Therein lies the intrigue. No matter who Lesnar faces, that wrestler is going to get suplexed from the bell, and they have to figure out a way to survive, a way to win. Roman Reigns toughed through the pain, got up with a smile, blood pouring from his mouth, effectively saying "you can't put me down this way". And it was awesome. Finn Balor found way to severely attack Lesnar's ribs, which allowed him to stay on offense for a long time, and it was awesome. Samoa Joe did something else. So did Daniel Bryan, and AJ Styles. All of these matches were awesome, much better than the matches these guys were having with anyone else in WWE. The Lesnar Factor is strong.

I can understand his "Suplex City" act getting old for some people. But it hasn't for me. I can watch Lesnar throw people around in glorified squash matches forever. If Lesnar had worked a regular schedule, wrestling on every weekly show, I imagine the audience would have been sick of him within a year. But Lesnar is smart. He knows he's an attraction, and by appearing so rarely, he makes people want to see him that much more. More wrestlers should be like Lesnar. But I guess most wrestlers don't have the leverage to make that happen.

All of this would have been for nothing if Lesnar couldn't pull it off. But of course, he can. Why? Because he's an amazing wrestler. Best monster wrestler ever, in my opinion. Legitimately intimidating. Incredibly quick. Super strong. Vicious, and unrelenting. 10/10 offense. But Lesnar isn't just a brute. He knows how to work. He knows exactly what to do at all times to make his matches compelling. Most importantly, he knows how to sell. He is legitimately one of the greatest sellers ever, in my opinion. I can't think of many wrestlers I'd rank above him. Kawada, yes. Maybe Benoit too. That's about it. Every time Lesnar gets hurt in a match, I believe it. His selling in the match against Balor is a GOAT performance.

Sorry 🤯 , I stole your thunder. But I started typing and couldn't stop myself.

All hail Brock Lesnar.

Devastated. Went to bed last night dreaming he'd somehow be #1, or at minimum top ten. Devastated.

No worries on thunder stealing, Dr. Emperor... I'm too devastated to write my own love letter at the moment. Plus, I need to catch up on Regal, HHH, Christian, and Owen first still. Only feels fair.

Man...

18 spots too low.

Wonder who the #1 Brock list belongs to. I'd better investigate! I'm leaning towards System...

Jun 11, 2020 14:11:09 GMT @ness said:

Wonder who the #1 Brock list belongs to. I'd better investigate! I'm leaning towards System...

I didn’t submit a list 😭.

Only the top notch detective work of PW News can unravel this mystery.

I have a lot to catch up on in here just as far as actual reading, but to maintain tradition of dropping thoughts just on guys who've appeared here who're also from my list...

#20 William Regal
12 Votes-279 Points
High Vote: #11
Last Time: #88
**MY VOTE: #27**

My first introduction to Regal was in real time in 2000 when he popped up as the Good Will Ambassador. Dude was SUPER effective as a heel. Such a punchable face. Such an asshole demeanor. Terrible build. Boring ring style. I loved hating him. All the way through his bid for the Commissioner gig against Al Snow in early 2001. Even through the Spring of 2001 and his feud with Y2J... it probably wasn't until Tajiri popped up as his assistant when things finally clicked and I stopped loving to hate Regal and just started loving him.

Being behind on reading all the posts in here, I'm probably not going to say or cover anything original. Seems like it's been well-covered how great Regal is at both comedy and the more serious stuff. He's a GREAT heel, and a low key great face in the right positioning (i.e., finding himself forced to stand up to a greater evil on behalf of those whom he truly cares for). His facial expressions are epic in the perfect way (read: go fuck yourself, Dean Ambrose!) and his "boring ring style" turned out to be just an acquired taste that required a bit of patience and attention to appreciate all the brilliant nuance.

Let's try to cover the high beats... Loved him as the Commish with Tajiri as his aid. Wish they'd kept them as a pair longer, and/or done more as far as making an angle out of their breakup. Wish Regal had abused his kayfabe booking powers to essentially steal the IC title and/or 2001 KOTR crown. Him defecting during the InVasion made sense considering both his ol' WCW roots as well as his weasel ways. As dumb as VKM Ass Kiss Club was, Regal was epic in his role as the inaugural inductee. Sadly, I think that moment probably hurt him/killed him for a long stretch afterward.

He drifted doing a whole lot of nothing of note afterward. I wasn't really into his IC title program with Edge, which felt forced and inorganic to me in real time. Looking back, I've heard it was well received though... so maybe it was just me? The Power of the Punch gimmick was dumb to me in real time, but at least it was different for the time period and a hook for Regal's otherwise directionless character. In hindsight (read: in my revisionist history) Regal is probably best served during this time period as a European title holder, giving that belt a bit of restored credibility, making it meaningful before it gets unified with RVD's IC title. Anyway...

I was a bigger fan of Regal's pairing with Christopher Nowinski and Molly Holly in mid-2002 than I was of Regal becoming the non-Canadian Un-American. I don't know why, but I always wished that the Un-Americans had remained exclusively Canadian. I understand from podcasts now that apparently Regal needed to be added as a heat-getter for the group, but that doesn't really make sense to me... at least Test didn't seem to mind going for heat. But what do I know?

Things just got worse for Regal after the Un-Americans parted ways. He formed possibly THE most boring tag team of all time with Lance Storm, before suffering health issues, and disappearing for a long stretch. Absence made the heart grow fonder. I remember reading stories online about Regal's struggles to get back in shape and make his way back to the ring. I remember reading something about how Regal was doing thousands of Hindu squats, looking up what Hindu squats were, and my mind being blow twice over... first because holy shit do Hindu squats look impossibly hard. One would be impressive, let alone thousands. Second because, how on earth could Regal be able to do thousands of Hindu squats and yet have such a shit physique?! After reading these news stories, I was expecting Regal to come back looking as jacked as Rob Conway or Jinder Mahal upon their returns.

Regal ended up coming back looking the same as always though. He was back in a role that I think worked perfectly for him as Eugene's heelish caretaker. This was during a time period where I was tuning out more often than not and not following regularly. Somehow though I still managed to stay abreast of the best bits of Regal's storyline and character evolution through his relationship with Eugene. Some good stuff buried in there, including I think Regal turning full-on face to stand up to HHH and Evolution on Eugene's behalf.

Then I fully tuned out of WWE and totally missed all of anything Regal did with King Booker's Court, Finaly, Benoit, Paul Burchill, etc. I didn't start tuning back in until just before Regal's epic run as GM and 2008 KOTR. Buried in there, he had some all-time great TV matches against Punk and Orton if I recall correctly. I loved those abuse-of-power blackout arena segments. I was convinced at the time that Regal would've slotted perfectly into a main event program for the world title, and I honestly would've probably even bought him as a champ. Then drugs, suspension, etc. And my attention lapsed. I think he popped up in WWECW and had goons backing him in the form of Ezekiel Jackson and Vladimir Kozlov. I just presume he was putting on minor in-ring clinics during that run because that seems to be the rep WWECW had. I never explored. Not in real time, and not looking back now.

When looking back, I looked back to 1998 and before. Discovering Regal had a previous run in the WWF was mind-blowing. When he popped up on my 1998 Survivor Series: Deadly Games VHS as a totally different character with a GOAT contender theme... my mind was BLOWN. Fucking love that theme. Also loved Regal's match against Goldberg in WCW, regardless of whatever politics were behind it.

Considering he had a rep for having a hand in training Daniel Bryan, it was no surprise to me when Regal transitioned down to Florida for FCW/NXT. I think he's buddy-buddy with HHH too, so I presume he'll have a job for life (assuming no more drugs).

=====

#19 Triple H
11 Votes-308 Points
One #1 Vote
Last Time: #15
**MY VOTE: #31**

Speaking of HHH...

I feel like I might've shared this when posting about Hardcore Holly, but I've always had an irrational affinity for wrestlers with H-names because my shoot name starts with an H. And so, first discovering Triple H (HHH) via the WWF Warzone N64 video game, I was convinced I'd stumbled upon my newest all-time favorite wrestler ever. I mean, he had THREE H-names and went by "HHH". It was H Heaven! On top of that, in the video game, he seemed to have cool offense. The Pedigree was possibly the coolest finisher I'd ever seen, and his knee-based offense seemed super unique too. So I was all-in.

Then I started catching some of his stuff on VHS. The Blueblood Aristrocrat character was a letdown. I was hoping this new favorite was gonna be a bad ass or at least not a wimp. And yet, because of the time disconnect between the period captured in WWF Warzone and the VHS tapes I had access to... here was wimpy Hunter Hearst Helmsley looking and acting not a whole lot like what I was hoping for and expecting. BUT, as more VHS tapes became available (i.e, 1997 PPVs) the more HHH's stuff started to align with my expectations. His stuff with Mankind mostly made him a made man for me. Had I been watching RAW in real time and experienced how artifical and annoying his DX character was... I might've been all-out on HHH. So, lucky him? Lucky me? I dunno...

Chyna was a key component for buying more into HHH too. She had such a unique presence/aura that it rubbed off on HHH. I was fascinated by Chyna every time she was on screen, and so by proxy I was fascinated by most of HHH's segments. Always thought they should've had some sort of breakup/blowup angle... but I'm sure HHH would've kiboshed the idea for fear it'd kill his character. Anyway, sinful as it is to admit, I was pulling for HHH over Owen in their European title feud in 1998. I was also pulling for HHH over Rock in their DX vs. Nation/IC title feud later in the year (probably because middle school me was unknowingly racist?) -- but then HHH suffered perhaps the first of many leg injuries that would kinda derail his latter 1998. After winning the ladder match and IC title at SummerSlam, I was expecting HHH to start making waves to follow along after Rock up into the main event. Instead, he forfeits and hobbles around on crutches.

HHH gets back in the ring at the tail end of 1998 and the first quarter of 1999 seems kinda like a weird period for him. 1999 is totally the tale of two HHH's. Not being able to follow in real time (but only via VHS, which at least were hitting blockbuster shelves more quickly it seemed) -- it was jarring to see how quickly HHH transitioned/transformed into the Cerebral Assassin/Game character. As epic as his GOAT look was with the denim vest over leather jacket... let's not forget his breif run with the chain mail too. No wonder HHH and Big Poppa Pump had shoot heat in 2002-2003. They probably had beef stemming back to chain mail jealousy! Anyway... I think by the time HHH won the world title in 1999 and I saw it via VHS, I was already getting SmackDown! on UPN and was accustomed to him as champion. So it didn't seem that jarring. Going back now and watching footage of that period in 1999, I honestly don't really buy the line that HHH wasn't ready to be readily bought as a champion at the time. It's way easier to buy heel champions, and HHH would've been easy to make as a heel champion if there was any doubt prior to the Cactus Jack back-to-backs in 2000 to seal the deal.

Anyway... 2000 through 2001 more or less cemented HHH as a favorite for me. I loved the love triangle angle with Angle, him, and Steph; HATED that it never got its proper conclusion; and was so ready to buy into HHH's eventual face turn as he was finally coming across as an organic bad ass on par with the likes of Austin and Taker. Buuut... quads gonna pop, InVasions gonna happen, and the wrestling world as we know it is gonna forever change.

HHH has done more harm than good to his reputation and standing in my eyes since his return in January 2002. That MSG pop was the last gasp of hope for HHH to reach his potential for awesomeness. It's all been downhill from there, with occasional blips of greatness. HHH didn't do anything to move the needle in a positive direction for me between his MSG pop and his HBK match in 2002. Then, HHH didn't do anything to mov the needle in a positive direction for me from the HBK match to the cockteases that were the Booker T matches at WMXIX and on RAW. Then, I blamed him for the self-indulgent never-ending circle jerks he kept having with Nash and HBK. And then I blamed him even more for robbing me of Lesnar/Benoit II at WMXX. And so I was out on him.

I understand he was awesome in his role of making Batista in 2005, but I wouldn't know. I'm aware he kinda fucked Orton repeatedly. And then he seemed like a forced shoehorn against Cena in 2006. And everything thereafter just felt like a continued forced shoehorn. Blips of greatness were really just the End of an Era HIAC, his shoehorned match against Daniel Bryan at WMXXX, and Evolution's stuff against The Shield in the wake of WMXXX. Besides that... I'm blanking. Dude managed to have matches against Brock Lesnar that SHOULD'VE been dream matches, but were SO BAD that they made me actively hate Brock matches for the first time ever.

Maybe I should've rooted for Owen in their European title program after all?

=====

#17 Owen Hart
10 Votes-339 Points
High Vote: #2
Last Time: #16
**MY VOTE: #29**

Speaking of Owen...

Being a firstborn/older brother, I always sided with Bret over Owen... but Owen was so good at what he did, it was hard not to still begrudgingly love him too. He definitely had the cooler MOVEZ!!~ when comparing against Bret. But man, he was just sooo good as a whiny annoying heel that I could just never love him in "real time" on the same level as Bret.

I have the vaguest memories of his death making the news as a kid. 1999 felt like a year of awakening to real life tragedy. Wasn't that the same year as Columbine? Maybe not, but it's all kinda close-ish together. Middle school man... ROUGH.

I think I went on a rant somewhere (possibly in Fan Fic?) after listening to Talk Is Jericho with Martha Hart about what Owen's remaining days in the WWF might've looked like had he not died. I didn't get to finish that. But I agree with PW News, @ness, and Baker-man's stance that the highest height Owen probably ever gets to is a brief thank-you run sometime in the 2003-2005 window. Hell, if Owen lives, maybe he's who occupies the Benoit spot... coming up short against monster Lesnar, then jumping to RAW to finally avenge the Montreal Screw Job by making HHH and then HBK tap out in back-to-back triple threats with the WHC title on the line.

Baker-man probably won't like this either, but in my revisionist history I bypass Dean Douglas and give Owen the vacated IC title after HBK jobs to the United States Marines. I feel like Owen can do more with the "honor" of being a "robbed" IC Champ than Douglas did or ever could.

Really nothing else to add about Owen. Anyone who doesn't love Owen probably has no soul. Wrestling fact.

=====

#18 Christian
11 Votes-310 Points
One #1 Vote
Last Time: #61
**MY VOTE: #38**

Unlike the Hardy Boyz, I always knew who I preferred between E&C... and it's always been consistently Christian. In the ring, on the mic, as tag team partners or as singles acts. Even on their podcast.

Real quick, before I forget.... LOVE @ness's shout-out about Christian's noodle arms hanging out of his cut-off tees. YES! Sooo accurate. Also, anyone else ever notice how Christian was to yellow what Taz(z) was to orange? Like, Christian just somehow seemed yellow from head-to-toe ALWAYS. Like a poster boy for jaundice. ANYWAY...

Paid no attention to him during the Brood days. Remained mostly focused just on how cool the Brood's entrance and music was, and my attention span began and ended there.

Then E&C split away from deadweight Gangrel, and had that series with the Hardy Boyz. Hello! Now I was at least paying attention to E&C. To be fair, at that point, I probably couldn't pick a preference between Edge or Christian. Both were perfectly cromulent (if I'm using that word correctly?). It wasn't until 2000 and the formation of Team ECK and interactions with Commissioner Foley where Christian really started to shine in my eyes and pull away from Edge. At least on the mic and as a character. In the ring, they were probably still close-ish to equals.

It wasn't until the close of the final TLC chapter where I started to distinguish between Edge and Christian in the ring. The 2001 KOTR booking is what sealed the deal. Edge was getting this clear push, and his singles work (especially offense) just seemed so soft and goofy. Meanwhile, Christian seemed so much more crisp and solid. But it was always clear that Edge was the Shawn and Christian was the Marty... so I was willing to be patient and watch the E&C split play out. It's sad it was botched. Or at least not handled as well as it could've/should've been. I feel like I've heard/learned through podcasts that Edge and Christian just weren't comfortable at the time having the feud they felt like they should have? I think Christian mentioned he was still in a tag team specialist mindset, for instance? Anyway... In my revisionist history, the split is handled better and blown off with an epic ladder match to unify Edge's IC title with Christian's European title in Toronto at WMX8. Test may or may not be playing the Canadian Diesel to Christian's Canadian HBK (with Edge playing the Canadian Razor) in this scenario.

Christian's initial solo run in late 2001-early 2002 was epic IMO for the temper tantrum gimmick and GOAT contender entrance pyro and music. Man, I miss that shit. Unfortunately, Christian's booking didn't at all align with how awesome his entrance pyro/music was. He drifted aimlessly kinda like Regal but even lower down the totem pole before linking up with Storm to form the Un-Americans. Had some decently entertaining tag matches against Edge & Hogan and BookDust. Then dumped Storm and formed an even better tag team (possibly even better than E&C) with Y2J as Vitamin C. I loved Christian as Y2J's lackey, and it made for a good long-term character arc culminating in Christian turning on Y2J and the Trish swerve at WMXX.

One of the few things I was somehow keyed into during 2004-2005 despite no longer actively following was Christian's renewed epic singles push with Tomko as his enforcer. His rap where Tomko refused to give him a beat is still one of my all-time favorite moments. Christian was gaining so much steam as a popular heel that he somehow became a legit credible challenger to Cena. I remember watching some pirate stream of a triple threat pitting Cena against Y2J and Christian, and being SUPER pissed when Christian didn't sneak a win for the world title... even if it would've only been a transitional run. I think it was his booking around this time that somehow broke Christian's spirit and cause him to peace out to TNA - right?

Didn't follow Noodle Arms at all in TNA, but heard he did good-to-great things there are their MAIN EVENT MAN.

Then he came back to WWE to... do stuff on ECW. And the rest of his career is about as meh as WWE can be in the modern era.

While the Captain Charisma billing fits Christian at his highest highs, honestly... the most accurate billing for him would probably be Captain Cromulent.

=====

There...

All caught up to the latest batch.

I'll get to Kurt next.

And then...

BRRRRROCK!!!

Kurt Angle is a top 10 caliber result. Didn't submit a list because Baker likes to hide things from me, but if I had he would've been a bit higher than this. I got into wrestling in late 98, so about a year into that Kurt debuted. Even though he was pushed heavily from the start he was still a guy I got to watch from the beginning. There's something special about seeing someone go from midcard to main event (in a year...) rather than already be established when you watch.

His initial character as the mix of dorky geek but also mixed with being right and saying it the wrong way was just amazing. The 3 I's... honestly as much love as Rock/HHH get for what they did in 2000 I don't think the year would have been as memorable without KING KURT. And I don't care what anyone says... the WM21 match with Shawn is one of the best of all-time.

Towards the end I still loved him in TNA, although I hated those white shitty little boots. He had a bad habit of repeating his two greatest matches (Benoit 2003 for the small guys) and (Taker 2005 for the hosses), but fuck dude can you honestly name better matches than those? And to think instead of that awesome NWO match with Taker we got lameness with Mark Henry for Taker's Mania appearance. Get outta my face.

I was so friggin' hyped for his first video game appearance and I knew several people who were on board too.

I didn't like how they started calling the Olympic Slam the Angle Slam and transitioned the Ankle Lock to the Angle Lock. Stop it.

I know he became spammy, indyriffic and should've retired long before he did... don't care still awesome.

Kurt is far too low for my taste. Who else would redo their entrance because the fans were being disrespectful? Kurt frickin' Angle that's who.

Did you know he won a gold medal? WITH A BROKEN FREAKING NECK!

I have a draft in progress on Kurt on my work computer, so I'll skip to Brock

Who deserves a writeup sober, but maybe I'll high enough to unleash all the beauty

Where to begin?

2002
March 18
Day One
No ish
Instant. Mark. Love.

Like Psyco Sid but scarier, with legit amateur credentials. Something straight outta Streetfighter.

The push helped. And the generosity, of all those squashed so gloriously. But Brock was also clearly just a phenom talent

He had that GOAT selling even from Day One

And he's just gotten better with age
Like bleu cheese I guess?

What else is there to say
That hasn't been said?

Still can't tell if Dr. Emperor loves, or is just genius level satire. I love it either way, and totally agree. Genuinely.

But also take that love, crank it to a thousand, and apply liberally across first run as well.

My #1. Then, now, forever, always. Can do no wrong. Can even murder eat my firstborn and get a pass from me.

Really need to get back to #BROCKTOBER

My man 🤯 might want to steer clear of this post. Sorry, buddy.

Brock Lesnar- Did not make my list. Did not even make my Top 200 list. Would, however, have cracked a Top 10 Least Favorite list in my less mellow days.

Brock was my least favorite wrestler in WWE for the bulk of his 2002-2004 run. Only the existence of CM Puke prevented Brock from being my least favorite in all of wrestling. My ideal WWE Superstar in those days was somebody who worked their way up the card like Foley, Bret, and even Michaels. Even the likes of Austin, HHH, and Rock experienced struggles in their rise to superstardom. All those guys earned it. Brock didn't earn a damn thing. It was all handed to him. He was such a promoter's pet. It was ridiculous. I could have excused this (as I did for Angle) if he had, ya know, a personality. But he didn't. "Me Brock. Brock smash." Was the extent of his character. Boring! You know what else was boring? Brock beating everybody and winning everything ever in his first year. Get outta town with that nonsense! Let's take a look at Brock's first year....

Beats the Hardy Boys, an already-legendary tag team, in handicap matches. Wins KOTR. Beats RVD, who personified The Struggle, a bunch of times. Beats The Rock for the WWE Championship like 5 months into his WWE career. Idiots cheer Brock over Rock. I didn't even like Rock in 2002. He was stale. He was a "sellout." Yet it still bothered me that the WWE Universe cheered for Hogan & Brock over him. Speaking of Hogan, Brock beat him too! Then he beats Taker in Hell In A Cell. Nobody even gets thrown off the roof. Boring! Then Brock wins the Royal Rumble because of course he does. Then he regains the WWE Championship in the main event of Wrestlemania.

Good grief! Has there ever been a bigger (over)push in the history of wrestling? I think not! That's like a career's worth of achievements in just one year. Again, I may have accepted this if Brock had a personality. But he didn't. He was just a big dumb meathead. 

He had a stupid finisher too. Yeah, I went there. The F5 only landed properly like 25% of the time. Guys took it on their back. They took it on their side. And it wasn't even THAT cool to begin with. In fact, the F5 looked fun to take. Wheee! Look at me! I'm spinning through the air like a helicopter! Fun fun fun!

Speaking of stupid finishers, guess who botched the finish of a Wrestlemania main event? Brock Lesnar. That's who. What a jabroni.

Yet people loved this Poochie. I didn't get it. He was a heel Goldberg, who also sucked.

Then, after sacrificing most of the roster to get over The Golden Boy, Brock up and quits cuz poor widdle baby don't like flying. What an ingrate! "FUCK Brock Lesnar!"- 2002-2015ish Baker. And people still wonder why Vince never pushed anybody else to the moon.... I can't blame him after the Lesnar debacle!

I didn't even think Brock was anything special in the ring. I was shocked....SHOCKED, I tell you, when I saw people calling him one of the best in the company, if not the entire world. It wasn't until the GOAT Smackdown match with Benoit in December 2003 that I finally came around on Brock's in ring skillz. And he didn't show even a modicum of personality until the Eddie feud. No PI, that stupid twitching he'd do on his way to the ring doesn't count as having a personality. Oh, Brock also had video games named after him as a rookie. Ridiculous! Back to Eddie, even though his title win was a little too "outta nowhere" for my liking, I was still cool with it because at least he beat Brock Lesnar. Yay! 

Another particular favorite Brock match came against Angle at Summerslam 2003 when BROCK TAPPED OUT LIKE A BITCH! YEAH! Loved it! That's easily my favorite Brock/Angle match. They were in the right face/heel roles. And the right guy won. Suck it, Brock! Angle forever!

I loved the Brock/Goldberg match because of the hostile crowd. They deserved it. *clap clap clapclapclap* Give 'em the business, MSG! Take 'em to the woodshed, Stone Cold! Probably my favorite "so bad it's good" match in wrestling history. 

At some point I rewatched the Brock/Taker HIAC match and liked it a lot more the 2nd time around. You just had to have the right mindset to accept it as an old school brawl rather than a then-typical WWE stunt show.

And WWE finally did get their investment back when Brock returned after getting his ass kicked a couple times in UFC. 2010s Baker also had much different tastes than 2002-2004 Baker. A jacked up meathead running through the roster in 2002-2004 was a major turnoff. But a jacked up meathead wrecking a bunch of indie geeks in the 2010s was just what the doctor ordered....in theory.

OK, so it's not like I watch a ton of Nu Brock matches. But I have seen a few. The Balor match was excellent because of Brock's selling. I also remember liking one of the Undertaker matches, a Hoss 4 Way, and the 2010s Cena match I watched was alright, though I can't tell you much about any of them today. But I definitely didn't hate them in real time. He also showed a personality for the 2nd time in his career when he won MITB last year.

But then I just remembered Brock ended The Streak. So fuck him again. A few months ago I realized Brock's 2010s schedule was so light it made WCW Hogan look like an absolute workhorse. Has there ever been a more pushed and pampered wrestler in wrestling history than Brock Lesnar? Even if you want to argue for Hogan, The Hulkster made this business, brother. The most you can say about Lesnar is maybe he slowed down its decline a teeny tiny bit.

It's good and okay to have dissenting opinions.


Just means more Brock for me.

And I still love you, Baker-man!

Jun 12, 2020 3:44:53 GMT 🤯 said:

It's good and okay to have dissenting opinions.


Just means more Brock for me.

And I still love you, Baker -man!

Whew. Safe after all. I was worried this might break up our tag team.
Dissenting opinions aren't what they used to be. People get so easily upset nowadays. Should have known you'd be one of the chill ones.
Just for that, I will finally make a proper post in the Unbeloved Comedy thread!

Jun 12, 2020 3:50:30 GMT Baker said:

Jun 12, 2020 3:44:53 GMT 🤯 said:

It's good and okay to have dissenting opinions.


Just means more Brock for me.

And I still love you, Baker -man!

Whew. Safe after all. I was worried this might break up our tag team.
Dissenting opinions aren't what they used to be. People get so easily upset nowadays. Should have known you'd be one of the chill ones.
Just for that, I will finally make a proper post in the Unbeloved Comedy thread!

True

It's easy to be chill with you on wrestler tastes overall because your faves are so clutch

I might've come back after you if your #1's were Dean Ambrose, or Kenny Omega, or etc.

Jun 12, 2020 3:52:22 GMT 🤯 said:

I might've come back after you if your #1's were Dean Ambrose, or Kenny Omega, or etc.

I'd come after myself if that were the case.