Apr 11, 2020 15:50:11 GMT Baker said:

PW's take on Cody is maybe the most fascinating revelation so far. Everybody who has commented preferred him in WWE.

I said the opposite. *shrugs*

Then again, I was also lucky enough to see him twice in my local Indy fed pre AEW as the Nightmare and meet him.  That's actually what raised him up in my estimation both personally and in ring wise.  When the 'production' boots are taken off and they are allowed to be the character/person/wrestler they want to be both on the mic and in the ring, I think that really shows who they are.

Only one of this current crop made my list:

#129 Wade Barrett
3 Votes- 50 Points
High Vote: #18
Last Time: #86

Massive Wade Barrett fan back from Nexxus.  I'm really shocked WWE didn't do more with him.  Great look, great heel, great mic skills, solid in ring competitor. 

Missed the boat:

I regret tenfold not putting Nikki Bella on my list.  Huge fan.  I think she was underrated because of her looks and her relationship with Cena.  Some would have been content to rest on those laurels but not Nikki. 

125 Nikki Bella
2 Votes- 54 Points
High Vote: #5

I am very much enjoying Bayley's current heel run.  She might not be as eloquent on the mic as others but I think it's helping her ring style and persona develop and get more comfortable.  She was on my initial list but ended up getting cut.
#128 Bayley
2 Votes- 51 Points
High Vote: #24

I used to be a huge supporter of Ziggler but over the years he's just gotten stale.   For that reason he didn't make my list.
#130 Dolph Ziggler
2 Votes- 50 Points
High Vote: #4
Last Time: #87

Bayley likely would have been on my list a couple years ago. Unfortunately she’s dropped quite a bit for me.

I loved her when she was in NXT and shortly after she got called up. My daughter really liked her too. Even bought her t-shirt.

Then we just got bored. And it probably wasn’t Bayley’s fault, because she is definitely one of the most mishandled superstars not named Sami Zayn, but even when they finally reinvented her and gave her this heel run I just didn’t care. Nothing she’s done in the past couple years has had any affect on me.

The thing with Cody is it seems like he's mostly trying to look good now rather than actually making his moves look good...if that makes sense? He always has this look on his face like he's a badass now instead of trying to sell. I'm just not seeing the in-ring dominance that he used to give off back in WWE. It's a huge shame because he finally has everything he wanted and worked for and everything I always wanted for him. The things that he kept being held back from due to mismanagement. He's at the top of the company; he's got the badass look, the badass image, and the badass nickname "The American Nightmare". All stuff he should have had in WWE. He has essentially become Triple H. A huge threatening figure to be feared as a top star. But somewhere along the way, it feels like he lost what made him special and the HHH work ethic that he used to have. HHH always brings it. Cody used to, but now I think he's too damn busy trying to make everyone think he is in the right spot rather than just being there.

Part of it may be simply because it came about so unnaturally...that he put himself at the top rather than being given the spot. At first I thought that he just decided he didn't have to try hard now that he has that top spot and that he doesn't have to prove anything to the higher-ups anymore by putting in all that effort. But I think it could be the exact opposite. He feels like he has to prove himself so much that he's not focusing on the ring work itself but instead on what appearance the moves are giving off. He's probably thinking he'll seem like a masterclass fusion wrestler if he incorporates all these moves from other people into his repertoire like he has, but they don't really flow together or actually look good. He hasn't actually mastered them; he's just using them. If he simply wrestled the style he is amazing at like before, his matches would be better.

Apr 11, 2020 14:56:37 GMT RT said:

This is exactly why I don’t like Cody and I could never put my finger on it either.

It’s the same reason I didn’t like Charlotte for the longest time. Her gimmick was “I’m Ric Flair’s daughter,” and Cody has been the same thing since AEW started. “I’m Dusty Rhodes’ son,” was his entire persona. The only difference was that Charlotte is very talented in the ring while Cody is meh. Charlotte would wrestle someone and make you forget that you didn’t like her. Cody can’t do that because he’s not good enough. AND he constantly books himself over people. WHY THE FUCK DOES HE KEEP BEATING SHAWN SPEARS!?

Cosplaying is the perfect description. He’s like a rich kid that got his parents to buy him a wrestling ring and he invites his friends over for a gauntlet match and throws a fit if one of them actually beats him.

Okay, we diverge quite a bit on these points though. I don't think Cody is at all trying to seem like the son of Dusty for his AEW run. He even dropped the last name from his ring name. He actively appears to be combating it. Plus Cody is good enough to stand alone apart from the legacy. He already did it in WWE. He's not the best talent, sure, there are others that are clearly better in the company...but he can be pretty damn good.

Shawn Spears on the other hand...are you even watching AEW? I had never even heard of him before, but I was incredibly excited about him when he showed up. He looks like a fucking badass motherfucker. He came out and nailed Cody with that chair shot and I was like "Holy shit. This guy is awesome. This shit is next level. We're going to have villains like this? This company is amazing." Then he had an actual wrestling match. I was so disappointed. I honestly find him to be the most boring wrestler I have ever seen. I would rather watch a Bad Luck Fale match. He seems to have the talent. He seems to have the potential. But he just...is slow as fuck and kind of stands there a lot. All his moves look weak. I want to skip his matches.

I keep hoping for something better from him, but it has not come. To make matters worse, they put him in easily the stupidest and most difficult situation for him. Aside from wearing the bright pink flashy tights suddenly which completely counter the look it seemed they were going for that he should have had, they put him under Blanchard like he's some helpless fool that has no idea what he is doing and needs to be taught. It's embarrassing even. The commentators really lay it in thick too with comments about how he was nothing without this guidance. What the fuck happened? That is not the set up they gave him! He was supposed to be this badass motherfucker that did whatever he wanted. He could have been the evil version of Stone Cold. It's like they suddenly needed to give Blanchard a purpose and threw Spears under the bus to make it happen. Easily the worst gimmick / setup and most incompetent thing AEW has done in the entire company so far.

Back to the ring-work though, it's not like it doesn't look like he could do well technically or athletically. Ironically, I think he just does need guidance (legitimate guidance, not kayfabe guidance) but he sure isn't getting it from Blanchard. It's like his entire focus while he's in the ring is on playing some dumb character that is bewildered by everything. That's fine and kind of fits a typical heel role, but he is WAY too focused on it and barely ever does any moves without throwing some weird acting in. Plus it doesn't fit the kind of heel he was supposed to be originally. Now he's just like a comedy jobber heel. He looks around in confusion like he doesn't know what is going on every chance he gets and it makes him even more boring. He shows zero intensity throughout every single match. His moves don't look good...I legitimately think he hasn't been taught how to make them look good.

Basically, I just think I got my hopes up for nothing. I guess he's way younger than I thought and doesn't actually have that much experience? Sorry to rant so much, but I was very disappointed by him. And I'm sure he had some say in this ridiculous storyline they gave him but chose to go along with it, which is bad on him...not just AEW for giving it to him.

Apr 11, 2020 16:14:14 GMT Big Pete said:

Cody was my pick as Pro Wrestler of the Year since he had a career year and checked all the boxes. He had competition from the usual suspects - guys like Okada, Jericho etc. and you could certainly make a case for them but I don't think their 2019s stood out as much as Codys.

What sticks out about Cody is that in this promotion where 80% of the talent treat it as this big inside jokes the fans are in on, Cody sheds blood, sweat and tears for this promotion. I don't buy any arguments about him being disingenous, you don't get a bad tattoo like his unless you're crazy passionate and you put your skin in the game.

I see a lot of parrallels between him and Dreamer. Cody is not the most talented guy, but he's clearly passionate and he's dangerously close to getting to the heart of what makes a good Pro.

The whipping segment between him and MJF is a great example. It's a great scenario on paper and it helped guys like Dreamer and Foley get over big time in their respective careers. However Cody made himself look like a dummy because the set up was all wrong. That should have been a stipulation for after the match, not before it.

Even if they wanted to use it as a way to bluff Cody out of the match, the focus should have been whether AEW, MJF and Cody would go through with it. Who would buckle first - go all Black Mirror Season 1 Episode 1 and place all the build up in the suspense, not in the actual pay off.

No one is saying Cody doesn't have passion for the business and heart. That passion isn't disingenuous...his appearance is. And I am incredibly grateful to him for channeling that passion so well and getting an entire amazing new wrestling promotion going. It's just that his in-ring work seems to have dulled, which I touched on at the start of this post.

But you have got to be smoking some serious crack to say he was wrestler of the year. Or maybe I missed a ton of matches he was having somewhere? From the AEW side, he only had a handful of big matches in 2019. The time limit draw with Darby was great but a far cry from match of the year. And the match with Jericho wasn't even as good, though it was more emotionally fueled. His earlier matches against Dustin and with Dustin against the Bucks were the only things you could really say were especially great. But even with that, I'd be confident in saying he wasn't in a single one of the top 100 matches of the year. Okada was probably in half of them. Pretty much every single Jay White match was better than all of Cody's matches.

I think Cody is further than ever before from getting to the heart of what makes a pro. At least as far as what I care for a "pro" to have in my book as that is a pretty ambiguous adjective. His position is certainly a pro spot now but his psychology has taken a backstep. I could care less how dominating he appears...I just want him to focus on wrestling again. Now that I think about it, a good way to describe what has happened is that he has transformed into a spot wrestler. Spotty nonsense nonstop. Probably the influence of those damned Bucks.

I'd take Dashing Cody Rhodes over the American Nightmare any day. Hell, Dashing would have certainly made my top 50. Nightmare came in at #77. Part of it may be his new gimmick too, or lack of one. He's just "an epic guy" now. He doesn't really connect with me anymore. The Dashing gimmick was hilarious and had some personality in it.

                 

I’m pretty sure Cody dropped his last name because he was forced to after leaving WWE. He’s never officially called himself Cody Rhodes since leaving WWE. Everyone just calls him that because Cody is a dumb name for a wrestler.

Sucks I fell behind on commenting , I do like the apathy for Cody though. Always thought he was quite overrated on PW. He's fine , probably even really good at times but he's certainly not the wrestling messiah that he was/is made out to be at times.

A few from my list of favorites that I can remember showing up:

Ahmed Johnson - Yes he ultimately sucked but watching it in the moment you honestly didn't think there was a man on the planet who could kick this monsters ass. He had so much potential but fell on his face and dealt with injuries.

R-Truth - He's climbed up my list , back down and now back up again. I loved K-Kwik when he was in there with Road Dogg , I think he's one of the most hilarious wrestlers of all time now and has incredible comedic timing. Easy dude to cheer for and rarely wastes an oppurtunity. And his main event run was fun and even believable.

Mike Awesome - The only ECW guy to make my list. I'm a fan of monsters , Awesome is truly one of most talented big men ever IMO that just never got his shot in the mainstream. I still find myself going back and watching Awesome's stuff.

Apr 11, 2020 18:56:01 GMT RT said:

I’m pretty sure Cody dropped his last name because he was forced to after leaving WWE. He’s never officially called himself Cody Rhodes since leaving WWE. Everyone just calls him that because Cody is a dumb name for a wrestler.

Well RT is a dumb name for a message board poster.  :@

Apr 11, 2020 18:46:13 GMT Lionheart said:

The thing with Cody is it seems like he's mostly trying to look good now rather than actually making his moves look good...if that makes sense? He always has this look on his face like he's a badass now instead of trying to sell. I'm just not seeing the in-ring dominance that he used to give off back in WWE. It's a huge shame because he finally has everything he wanted and worked for and everything I always wanted for him. The things that he kept being held back from due to mismanagement. He's at the top of the company; he's got the badass look, the badass image, and the badass nickname "The American Nightmare". All stuff he should have had in WWE. He has essentially become Triple H. A huge threatening figure to be feared as a top star. But somewhere along the way, it feels like he lost what made him special and the HHH work ethic that he used to have. HHH always brings it. Cody used to, but now I think he's too damn busy trying to make everyone think he is in the right spot rather than just being there.

Part of it may be simply because it came about so unnaturally...that he put himself at the top rather than being given the spot. At first I thought that he just decided he didn't have to try hard now that he has that top spot and that he doesn't have to prove anything to the higher-ups anymore by putting in all that effort. But I think it could be the exact opposite. He feels like he has to prove himself so much that he's not focusing on the ring work itself but instead on what appearance the moves are giving off. He's probably thinking he'll seem like a masterclass fusion wrestler if he incorporates all these moves from other people into his repertoire like he has, but they don't really flow together or actually look good. He hasn't actually mastered them; he's just using them. If he simply wrestled the style he is amazing at like before, his matches would be better.

Apr 11, 2020 14:56:37 GMT RT said:

This is exactly why I don’t like Cody and I could never put my finger on it either.

It’s the same reason I didn’t like Charlotte for the longest time. Her gimmick was “I’m Ric Flair’s daughter,” and Cody has been the same thing since AEW started. “I’m Dusty Rhodes’ son,” was his entire persona. The only difference was that Charlotte is very talented in the ring while Cody is meh. Charlotte would wrestle someone and make you forget that you didn’t like her. Cody can’t do that because he’s not good enough. AND he constantly books himself over people. WHY THE FUCK DOES HE KEEP BEATING SHAWN SPEARS!?

Cosplaying is the perfect description. He’s like a rich kid that got his parents to buy him a wrestling ring and he invites his friends over for a gauntlet match and throws a fit if one of them actually beats him.

Okay, we diverge quite a bit on these points though. I don't think Cody is at all trying to seem like the son of Dusty for his AEW run. He even dropped the last name from his ring name. He actively appears to be combating it. Plus Cody is good enough to stand alone apart from the legacy. He already did it in WWE. He's not the best talent, sure, there are others that are clearly better in the company...but he can be pretty damn good.

Shawn Spears on the other hand...are you even watching AEW? I had never even heard of him before, but I was incredibly excited about him when he showed up. He looks like a fucking badass motherfucker. He came out and nailed Cody with that chair shot and I was like "Holy shit. This guy is awesome. This shit is next level. We're going to have villains like this? This company is amazing." Then he had an actual wrestling match. I was so disappointed. I honestly find him to be the most boring wrestler I have ever seen. I would rather watch a Bad Luck Fale match. He seems to have the talent. He seems to have the potential. But he just...is slow as fuck and kind of stands there a lot. All his moves look weak. I want to skip his matches.

I keep hoping for something better from him, but it has not come. To make matters worse, they put him in easily the stupidest and most difficult situation for him. Aside from wearing the bright pink flashy tights suddenly which completely counter the look it seemed they were going for that he should have had, they put him under Blanchard like he's some helpless fool that has no idea what he is doing and needs to be taught. It's embarrassing even. The commentators really lay it in thick too with comments about how he was nothing without this guidance. What the fuck happened? That is not the set up they gave him! He was supposed to be this badass motherfucker that did whatever he wanted. He could have been the evil version of Stone Cold. It's like they suddenly needed to give Blanchard a purpose and threw Spears under the bus to make it happen. Easily the worst gimmick / setup and most incompetent thing AEW has done in the entire company so far.

Back to the ring-work though, it's not like it doesn't look like he could do well technically or athletically. Ironically, I think he just does need guidance (legitimate guidance, not kayfabe guidance) but he sure isn't getting it from Blanchard. It's like his entire focus while he's in the ring is on playing some dumb character that is bewildered by everything. That's fine and kind of fits a typical heel role, but he is WAY too focused on it and barely ever does any moves without throwing some weird acting in. Plus it doesn't fit the kind of heel he was supposed to be originally. Now he's just like a comedy jobber heel. He looks around in confusion like he doesn't know what is going on every chance he gets and it makes him even more boring. He shows zero intensity throughout every single match. His moves don't look good...I legitimately think he hasn't been taught how to make them look good.

Basically, I just think I got my hopes up for nothing. I guess he's way younger than I thought and doesn't actually have that much experience? Sorry to rant so much, but I was very disappointed by him. And I'm sure he had some say in this ridiculous storyline they gave him but chose to go along with it, which is bad on him...not just AEW for giving it to him.

Apr 11, 2020 16:14:14 GMT Big Pete said:

Cody was my pick as Pro Wrestler of the Year since he had a career year and checked all the boxes. He had competition from the usual suspects - guys like Okada, Jericho etc. and you could certainly make a case for them but I don't think their 2019s stood out as much as Codys.

What sticks out about Cody is that in this promotion where 80% of the talent treat it as this big inside jokes the fans are in on, Cody sheds blood, sweat and tears for this promotion. I don't buy any arguments about him being disingenous, you don't get a bad tattoo like his unless you're crazy passionate and you put your skin in the game.

I see a lot of parrallels between him and Dreamer. Cody is not the most talented guy, but he's clearly passionate and he's dangerously close to getting to the heart of what makes a good Pro.

The whipping segment between him and MJF is a great example. It's a great scenario on paper and it helped guys like Dreamer and Foley get over big time in their respective careers. However Cody made himself look like a dummy because the set up was all wrong. That should have been a stipulation for after the match, not before it.

Even if they wanted to use it as a way to bluff Cody out of the match, the focus should have been whether AEW, MJF and Cody would go through with it. Who would buckle first - go all Black Mirror Season 1 Episode 1 and place all the build up in the suspense, not in the actual pay off.

No one is saying Cody doesn't have passion for the business and heart. That passion isn't disingenuous...his appearance is. And I am incredibly grateful to him for channeling that passion so well and getting an entire amazing new wrestling promotion going. It's just that his in-ring work seems to have dulled, which I touched on at the start of this post.

But you have got to be smoking some serious crack to say he was wrestler of the year. Or maybe I missed a ton of matches he was having somewhere? From the AEW side, he only had a handful of big matches in 2019. The time limit draw with Darby was great but a far cry from match of the year. And the match with Jericho wasn't even as good, though it was more emotionally fueled. His earlier matches against Dustin and with Dustin against the Bucks were the only things you could really say were especially great. But even with that, I'd be confident in saying he wasn't in a single one of the top 100 matches of the year. Okada was probably in half of them. Pretty much every single Jay White match was better than all of Cody's matches.

I think Cody is further than ever before from getting to the heart of what makes a pro. At least as far as what I care for a "pro" to have in my book as that is a pretty ambiguous adjective. His position is certainly a pro spot now but his psychology has taken a backstep. I could care less how dominating he appears...I just want him to focus on wrestling again. Now that I think about it, a good way to describe what has happened is that he has transformed into a spot wrestler. Spotty nonsense nonstop. Probably the influence of those damned Bucks.

I'd take Dashing Cody Rhodes over the American Nightmare any day. Hell, Dashing would have certainly made my top 50. Nightmare came in at #77. Part of it may be his new gimmick too, or lack of one. He's just "an epic guy" now. He doesn't really connect with me anymore. The Dashing gimmick was hilarious and had some personality in it.

                 

Great post which expands upon what I was trying to say much more eloquently (mostly).

Cody has to 'fit in' to this new company he's created.  He has to look at it from a production stand point and I agree with Lionheart in that's what's affected him in ring wise.  It's actually a gripe I have about AEW (too many spots not enough substance).  Same with Jericho I'd say.  They are now looking at it from a production POV that they never had to before because it's their cash and reputations on the line.

I used to like Ty Dillinger/Shawn Spears and I want to support him, but fuck if Lionheart isn't right again.  After he was released from WWE he did a stint with my local Indy Fed and now I know why he spent years in developmental and got released.  I thought 'maybe they just didn't have good chemistry', but I watched AEW and nope, he's fucking boring.

I don't find Cody to be like HHH much at all, I think the only comparison is they're both simultaneously main eventers and powerful executives. Cody is babyface Ric Flair. HHH I always thought was more like Harley Race.

No one is saying Cody doesn't have passion for the business and heart. That passion isn't disingenuous...his appearance is. And I am incredibly grateful to him for channeling that passion so well and getting an entire amazing new wrestling promotion going. It's just that his in-ring work seems to have dulled, which I touched on at the start of this post.

But you have got to be smoking some serious crack to say he was wrestler of the year. Or maybe I missed a ton of matches he was having somewhere? From the AEW side, he only had a handful of big matches in 2019. The time limit draw with Darby was great but a far cry from match of the year. And the match with Jericho wasn't even as good, though it was more emotionally fueled. His earlier matches against Dustin and with Dustin against the Bucks were the only things you could really say were especially great. But even with that, I'd be confident in saying he wasn't in a single one of the top 100 matches of the year. Okada was probably in half of them. Pretty much every single Jay White match was better than all of Cody's matches.

I think Cody is further than ever before from getting to the heart of what makes a pro. At least as far as what I care for a "pro" to have in my book as that is a pretty ambiguous adjective. His position is certainly a pro spot now but his psychology has taken a backstep. I could care less how dominating he appears...I just want him to focus on wrestling again. Now that I think about it, a good way to describe what has happened is that he has transformed into a spot wrestler. Spotty nonsense nonstop. Probably the influence of those damned Bucks.

Cody is doing more than 'just' cosplaying though. It's one thing to dress up as a wrestler, it's another to put your body through what he has. The fans buy into him and I've yet to see him lose a crowd. He's infront of the smarkiest fans as well, they'd see right through him if he was a 'phony'.

I'm not going to die on the hill, but Cody rated highly in the Observer awards. Cody/Dustin finished 3rd for MotY, Cody finished 2nd on promos, 2nd and 10th for feuds, 9th most improved and 4th overall for Pro Wrestler of the year. Clearly he was there abouts with the community.

Apr 11, 2020 16:09:02 GMT Baker said:

#125 Nikki Bella
2 Votes- 54 Points
High Vote: #5

#126 D'Lo Brown
2 Votes- 52 Points
High Vote: #2

#127 Jay White
2 Votes- 51 Points
High Vote: #19

#128 Bayley
2 Votes- 51 Points
High Vote: #24

#129 Wade Barrett
3 Votes- 50 Points
High Vote: #18
Last Time: #86

#130 Dolph Ziggler
2 Votes- 50 Points
High Vote: #4
Last Time: #87

Oh yes, another running theme on OTRSCentral, *clap* *clap *clap* FUCK DOLPH ZIGGLER!!!!!!

In actuality he's rather average but his Shawn Michaels cosplaying can be annoying since we are on that theme. Loving the Cody posts as well, I thought he would be minimum top 50.

D'Lo had his moments with me, good athleticism for a bigger guy and a fun promo, still not enough to make an honorable mention though.

Surprised Wade Barrett hung on after being out of the spotlight for many years. 

No one from these last two batches made my list. Ziggler is someone who I used to enjoy but he’s been either meh or downright bad for awhile now. Everything he’s apart of is so boring now. I did enjoy the hell out of feud with the Miz a few years back. He’s a guy that would probably thrive leaving WWE and making a run through the indys, in Japan, and AEW.

I just want to know who the fuck voted D-Lo Brown as their #2. There’s nothing wrong with that but it’s very random.

Apr 11, 2020 19:57:57 GMT Big Pete said:

No one is saying Cody doesn't have passion for the business and heart. That passion isn't disingenuous...his appearance is. And I am incredibly grateful to him for channeling that passion so well and getting an entire amazing new wrestling promotion going. It's just that his in-ring work seems to have dulled, which I touched on at the start of this post.

But you have got to be smoking some serious crack to say he was wrestler of the year. Or maybe I missed a ton of matches he was having somewhere? From the AEW side, he only had a handful of big matches in 2019. The time limit draw with Darby was great but a far cry from match of the year. And the match with Jericho wasn't even as good, though it was more emotionally fueled. His earlier matches against Dustin and with Dustin against the Bucks were the only things you could really say were especially great. But even with that, I'd be confident in saying he wasn't in a single one of the top 100 matches of the year. Okada was probably in half of them. Pretty much every single Jay White match was better than all of Cody's matches.

I think Cody is further than ever before from getting to the heart of what makes a pro. At least as far as what I care for a "pro" to have in my book as that is a pretty ambiguous adjective. His position is certainly a pro spot now but his psychology has taken a backstep. I could care less how dominating he appears...I just want him to focus on wrestling again. Now that I think about it, a good way to describe what has happened is that he has transformed into a spot wrestler. Spotty nonsense nonstop. Probably the influence of those damned Bucks.

Cody is doing more than 'just' cosplaying though. It's one thing to dress up as a wrestler, it's another to put your body through what he has. The fans buy into him and I've yet to see him lose a crowd. He's infront of the smarkiest fans as well, they'd see right through him if he was a 'phony'.

I'm not going to die on the hill, but Cody rated highly in the Observer awards. Cody/Dustin finished 3rd for MotY, Cody finished 2nd on promos, 2nd and 10th for feuds, 9th most improved and 4th overall for Pro Wrestler of the year. Clearly he was there abouts with the community.

I think you're reading too much into this phony thing. I know he's put a lot into it and the crowd does love him. I don't think he's a phony in general or not a real wrestler; he's a great guy and a fantastic wrestler. I was a huge Cody Rhodes fan in WWE. I think he's just putting on an act to try and be a different kind of wrestler than before that doesn't really fit him or his style, which I loved. I'm sure you can see that his style has changed as well. And maybe it is just me and it's fine and working for others, but I really do not like the change.

I'm not saying he is some sort of con artist though...it just seems he is trying to act like this larger than life guy now due to the pressure of what is expected of him instead of the real Cody Rhodes that I already thought was larger than life and already loved. Being in a higher spot doesn't mean your character needs to change or your style needs to transform. Maybe I'm imagining it, but it definitely seems like he is trying to act "more HHH" to me...or at the very least more "elite", which is indeed probably intentional as part of this new character within The Elite he is trying to become. But he's still #77 on my list which is not too shabby. I'm not saying he's bad by any means, just explaining why he has fallen a dozen places or so on my list with me personally.

Fuck Cody, the inauthentic one. He's old news. Let's talk about Jay White (#31)



To be honest, the Switchblade gimmick is kinda goofy, and I wasn't on board right away when Jay White returned from excursion and had that dud match with Tanahashi.

It wasn't long before he won me over, as he quickly revealed himself to be a devious, calculating villain with lofty ambitions. Far too lofty for his fellow wrestlers to believe given his lack of credibility. Kenny Omega invited Jay White to join Bullet Club. Jay White feigned acceptance, then swerved Kenny Omega with a Blade Runner. A shocking moment. Not just for the act itself. Jay White is very low on the totem pole, and here he is, punking out one of the top guys in the company, and a fellow heel at that. From that moment on it was established that Jay White plays by his own rules and is a master strategist.

Jay White then asked to join CHAOS in the guise of needing support to battle Bullet Club. He said to Okada's face that he wasn't in it for the team, and that he would rise the ranks, and eventually come for Okada. Okada laughed in his face, but accepted White's membership, happy to have an ally against his biggest rival, Kenny Omega. White was clearly the black sheep of the group, very blatantly sowing seeds of discontent by cheating in matches, encouraging his teammates to do the same, and chastising them when they refused.

White's match with Omega was a shocker as White picked up a clean pinfall to take the IWGP US Championship. The match was fascinating as Omega was destroying White for the most of the match, but White constantly hung on by a thread. Omega let his guard down, thinking he could win at any moment, but White stayed in there and hit a surprise Blade Runner for a monumental victory. This match was fantastic and established a lot of Jay White's in-ring persona. His resilience, his ability to play dead, his resourcefulness.

Besides that win and his actions within CHAOS, White didn't do much of note until the 2018 G1 Climax, where pinned Okada and Tanahashi back to back, and ended up with a 6-3-0 record. Now he was starting to get people's attention. But it was too late, for Jay White's near year-long master plan was about to reveal itself.

Shortly after the G1, White would repeatedly attack G1 winner Tanahashi, including after his defeat of Kazuchika Okada to retain the G1 winner's contact. Okada managed to chase Jay away, but Gedo, Okada's long time manager and friend, turned his back on him with a violent chair shot. A month later, Jay White became the leader of the Bullet Club in another double cross, where he joined with Tama Tonga and co. to become the leader of Bullet Club.

White defeated Okada at Wrestle Kingdom 13, thus defeating the leader of CHAOS as prophesised nearly a year prior. He would then go on to defeat IWGP Champion Tanahashi at The New Beginning in his most shocking victory yet. The prophecy was complete. Everything Jay White had said came true.

The whole saga is one of many fantastic examples of NJPW's long-term storytelling. If you only catch the occasional NJPW show, you'd think Jay White was a typical trash-talking heel with a weird "knife pervert" gimmick. He's not. He's so much more than that.

At that time Jay White was one of my favourite wrestlers, period, but perhaps he peaked too soon. Since losing the championship to Okada in April 2019, he has floundered. His match quality has dipped, his promos have become trite and repetitive, and he has been overshadowed by KENTA, Bullet Club's newest attraction. Had I written my list a year ago, Jay White probably would have made my Top 20.

He is a fantastic worker, far better than anyone his age has the right to be. Standout matches include the aforementioned match against Kenny Omega, his IWGP Championship victory against Tanahashi, his non-title match against Ospreay and, more recently, his 2020 Wrestle Kingdom match against Naito, which I rated five stars.

“Favorites” is very random. 

AS RANDOM AS A D-LO BROWN HEAD BOB

(my #2) 

I was a massive fan of his in the attitude era. I first took notice when he was the lone transitional member of the Nation of Domination that Farooq brought from the original incarnation. When he won the European belt off of Triple H I flipped out. Loved his runs with that championship. The first Eurocontinental champion. Had such high hopes when they brought him back for what turned out to be like a 2 week run. 

Met him in person last year at WrestleCon in Charlotte, North Carolina. Took my picture with him, while he let me hold his European Championship. LIFE LONG DREAM ACHIEVED. 

Don't have a lot to say of this batch.

D'Lo Brown: GOAT Frog Splash, GOAT strut, Top 5 moonsault, D'Lo is the classic example of the sum never equaling the parts. There was so much there to work, and his rise from just another NOD guy to second most charismatic next to the fucking Rock was quite a rise, and it was exciting! It felt like bigger things were meant to come. He had charisma, cool moves, understood the art of sports entertainment with the chest protector gimmick (among other things), but it never came together for whatever reason. I didn't see any of his stuff out of the WWE, but if WCW were still a thing could he have been a bigger fish in a smaller pond? Or was there just something that would always hold him, with weight being the most obvious thing? No matter, D'Lo was massively over in the most popular era of pro wrestling and that's means more to me than any ace during a dead era. I recognize. 

Bayley: I saw a few Bayley matches during her NXT run and I had ... complicated feelings. I thought she was really good, as good a seller as I had ever seen, she's one of the few that when she sells it doesn't make you just process it as wrestling pain, you feel genuine sympathy for her. THIS IS HARD TO DO AND SUPER RARE. I did, however, think her gimmick was so fucking stupid and would flop as soon as she got out of the Smark environment, though, and I have no idea if that's what actually happened, but it doesn't seem like it's quite worked out over there.

Wade Barrett: I only know Bad News Barrett. I don't know anything he did before or after, but Bad News Barrett was great, inexplicably over, and they appeared to deliberately destroy it and then him? The WWE is garbage, folks. People routinely get punished for doing a good job, how does anyone still watch?

Dolph Ziggler: Everything I dislike about Shawn Michaels' style and ultimate influence on wrestling is embodied by Dolph Ziggler. Flash being misinterpreted as craft, bumping being equated to selling, putting on a show being more important than simulating an attempt to actually win, ultimately the most vapid bullshit. I think the definitive example of Ziggler is his crowning achievement when he beat ADR for the big gold belt; he's selling his left arm for the big finish, he gets his (bad) finisher and the pin, match over and immediately starts flexing with his left arm, the ref raises his left arm to be the champion, he flexes with the belt in his left arm. Five seconds prior he couldn't move it. That's Dolph Ziggler. Every gesture is empty. He can make someone's offense look good at that moment, but it's all ultimately meaningless and for nothing. This is Shawn selling a leg the entire Ladder Match rematch against Razor, then dancing on it during his comeback and post match celebration, or his selling the back against Triple H in his return, then doing back flips like it's fine all of a sudden fine. Bumping does not equal selling.

I haven't had time to comment on the names being dropped the last few days, which is a shame because I always enjoy writing about how shit Seth Rollins is.

But for now, I just want to say that the boobjob Bella out of nowhere becoming Nikkisawa and throwing the best looking ELBOOOOOOOWWWWWSSSS in wrestling might be my favourite thing from the past 5 years. Especially when she would wear green and white.

Apr 11, 2020 23:47:10 GMT Voxtz said:

“Favorites” is very random. 

AS RANDOM AS A D-LO BROWN HEAD BOB

(my #2) 

I was a massive fan of his in the attitude era. I first took notice when he was the lone transitional member of the Nation of Domination that Farooq brought from the original incarnation. When he won the European belt off of Triple H I flipped out. Loved his runs with that championship. The first Eurocontinental champion. Had such high hopes when they brought him back for what turned out to be like a 2 week run. 

Met him in person last year at WrestleCon in Charlotte, North Carolina. Took my picture with him, while he let me hold his European Championship. LIFE LONG DREAM ACHIEVED. 

I wasn't going to reveal who voted for D'Lo at #2. PMs are sacred. So I'm glad you chimed in.

Shootist It's possible I would have more time for that Jeff guy if he was bashing a wrestler I disliked rather than the great Double J.

Big Pete raises a good point about SM sitting this one out. If he had voted Cody would have finished around #78- a much more respectable position.

🤯 The Japanese wrestling super post (megathread?) is on hold for the foreseeable future. Maybe when this countdown is over....
=====================
Nobody from this batch made my list. But two did make my big Honorable Mentions list of 200- D'Lo in the 110s and Dolph in the 120s. 

D'Lo Brown- Started life as an unnamed Nation jobber who would get beat up a lot. But every so often he'd land a move either during a run in or before taking yet another beating. Those moves always looked awesome. Because of that I liked D'Lo long before it was cool. "Keep an eye on D'Lo/the chubby dude in The Nation. That guy can go!" I would say to my friends. So nobody (except maybe Voxtz ) was happier than me when D'Lo upset the hated Triple H for the European Championship. People forget just how big of an upset that was. I don't remember seeing D'Lo ever pick up a singles victory before that match. D'Lo took that ball and ran with it, too. 

They gave him two things- the chest protector and the European Championship. He made the most out of those two things. He made them his own. As jTjohncenaGOAT mentioned the chest protector became his version of Bob Orton's cast. And his whole "Champion of Europe" gimmick gave him an additional hook. D'Lo is neck and neck with Bulldog for GOAT European Champ, and I'd honestly give the nod head bob to D'Lo. 

He was among the best "movez" guys in 1998 WWF too. Kilgore talked about his GOAT Frog Splash and Top 5 moonsault. I concur. RVD got higher. Eddie's is more iconic. But nobody got froggier than D'Lo. Then he had a couple cool powerbomb variations as well. I thoroughly enjoyed watching D'Lo wrestle.

D'Lo also had swagger. The aforementioned head bob and what I called "The People's Leg Drop" come to mind. 

I honestly though D'Lo was going to follow in the footsteps of his ex-stablemate The Rock to become WWF's next big breakout star.

It obviously never happened. The Droz incident perhaps justifiably put an end to any thoughts of D'Lo ever becoming a top guy. But his push cooled off long before that. There were frequent rumors about JR always wanting him to lose weight.

Have to admit I lost interest in a de-pushed D'Lo pretty quickly. Yet I never completely gave up on him. Even as late as the 2002(!) brand split I had a fanfic idea to rehabilitate D'Lo by putting him in a feud with the newly returned Eddie Guerrero over who had the best frog splash with D'Lo going over! That obviously never happened and he soon left the company.

I had just gotten into TNA and had high hopes for D'Lo competing there with herpaderp no restrictions~! Turns out maybe D'Lo needed restrictions because I don't remember anything he did there aside from a few good matches with AJ Styles. But that barely counts because who doesn't have good matches with AJ Styles??

A few years later he came back to WWE for a minute. I was excited for this because nostalgia. But he lost his return match (I think) to Santino and that was pretty much it. 

Still, we'll always have 1998 when the idea of D'Lo following in The Rock's footsteps was not at all out of the question.

Dolph Ziggler- This is an edited version of what I wrote a few months back in the thread that inspired this project.

Dolph Ziggler debuted when I was getting out of wrestling. I had him pegged as a comedy jobber. He was doing a Robbie Dawber gimmick with a silly WOAT-level ring name. I was pleasantly surprised by his debut match against Batista. I was expecting a total squash. Now Dolph did lose, but he slipped in this cool apron kick before going down in defeat. That match (or at least the kick) always stuck with me.

I lost interest in wrestling pretty much immediately after that and remember nothing about Dolph aside from seeing him in this one Wrestlemania tag match with....I can't even remember. Until!

Late 2012. I had just joined PW. Being back on a wrestling forum it seemed only natural that I would begin to watch wrestling again. So I jumped back in with all the enthusiasm of a noob. I had no time for full shows though. I just wanted some match/modern wrestler recommendations. An anti-Dolph poster made the very odd choice to share a gif of Dolph taking a sick bump courtesy of Albert as an example of why Dolph "sucked." Not being some sort of "bumps are bad" weirdo (after 7 years I still fail to grasp this poster's bizarre logic) the gif had the opposite effect on me. Far from turning me off Dolph, I now wanted to watch this big bumping nutter.

So I asked for some Dolph recommendations. My query was well received. I watched Dolph vs. Morrison, Bryan, Rey, and probably a few others. I honestly remember nothing about those matches today, but I did enjoy them at the time.

Dolph wore his influences on his sleeve. And they were good influences! Mr. Perfect, Shawn Michaels, and....Billy Gunn?

I think it was the Billy Gunn cosplay that really won me over. Perfect & Michaels ripoffs are a dime a dozen. But Billy Gunn!?! He was terribly uncool in 2012. Come to think of it, Billy Gunn is probably cooler today than he's been since the late 90s. Maybe ever? The AEW boys seem to love him. And Tanahashi is an admitted Billy Gunn fanboy. But Billy Gunn was the opposite of cool from like 2000-2015ish. Yet here's this Dolph guy dressing and wrestling like the Son of Billy Gunn. He did the Famouser and those neon outfits were pure Mr. Ass.

I also liked how he was a homegrown WWE workrate guy. There were only like two others during the entire 2000s- Shelton, Morrison, and...umm...Dolph? Yep. That's it.

I watched that clip where he beat stupid Alberto Del Rio (a wrestler I feel like I should have liked, but did not) for the belt in front of a red hot crowd.

Then I lost all interest in Dolph even from a distance.

Still, he was one of my guys (along with Sandow & Ryback) during my aborted late 2012-early 2013 wrestling comeback.

I don't remember/didn't see him as Nick Nemeth in OVW and must have missed Raw during those two weeks or whatever where he was Chavo's caddy.

Now you might be thinking he's waaaay too high. Here's a guy I only liked for a little while as a part time fan years after I had stopped watching wrestling on a regular basis. Two words...

Spirit. Squad. Yeah, Nicky was the 4th best guy in a 5 man unit. But still! I loved the Spirit Squad. Dolph's Spirit Squad history gave him a good 50 spot boost. No regrets!

🤯 Lacey Evans is 90% character. That's why I (and probably most of the others) like her so much. She reminds me of an old school WWF sports entertainer. 

I'm glad some of you mentioned Dolph being a cosplayer. He's 1/3 HBK, 1/3 Mr. Perfect, 1/3 Billy Gunn, and 0/3 Dolph Ziggler. Probably a far more egregious example than Cody. Yet I liked Dolph. Moral of the Story: Cody should cut the crap and just start ripping off Billy Gunn.
=======================
*I've barely seen the other 4 in this batch. But I gotta get my shit in. Keep in mind my thoughts on these people are based on very small sample sizes.

Nikki Bella- Most (all?) of what I've seen is from her early days doing "twin magic" with her sister. I thought they (I didn't know one from the other) looked barely trained and terrible. @admin is gonna hate me again but my lasting memory of early Bellas is a match against my girl Victoria where Vic does some Ric Flair broomstick work by literally bodyslamming herself while whatever Bella it was put her hands roughly in bodyslam position. I laughed. It was the best/worst. 

By all accounts Nikki Bella improved tenfold from those early days. So props to her for putting the work in.

Jay White- Only saw him a few times during his ROH excursion. The match that stands out is one against Jay Briscoe. It was either good or almost good until they blew it down the stretch. Probably the latter. But I can't remember for sure. What I do remember is thinking White reminded me of Chris Harris. Now that seems like an insult. But it's not. Chris Harris ruled. I thought White had potential to be a whitemeat babyface on par with the great Chris Harris. But now he's a heel who is seemingly nothing like Chris Harris at all. Rendering this perhaps the most pointless paragraph I have ever written on PW. Next!

Bayley- I have only seen like 5 Bayley matches. None of them are famous ones. Just random tv bouts. And in at least one of those matches she was a heel. Everybody seems to agree she is better as a babyface. She also doesn't seem like a 'random match' wrestler but somebody one needs to follow every week on tv to fully appreciate. Anyway, my only real thoughts on Bayley are she has subpar execution on offense and the belly to belly suplex was a dated finisher when Shane Douglas was using it way back in 1996 ECW.

Wade Barrett- Kilgore and I disagree once again. He couldn't stand Dolph but thought Barrett had potential. I liked Dolph but thought Barrett was a bore. Wade struck me as a generic brawler with more than a whiff of 2000s OVW assembly line robot about him. He had a stupid finisher and then he had another stupid finisher. I was briefly intrigued by Bad News Barrett until I realized it wasn't a Bad News Brown ripoff but Barrett delivering proclamations from a dangerously high podium. That was weird. BUT!

Barrett had the MOTN with Sheamus when I last attended a WWE show in April 2014 on a whim and I've enjoyed his commentary on NWA Powerrr. Plus just being affiliated with Powerrr makes me like him more than I ever did before. I am such a shill.

EDIT: I hope nobody takes offense to me occasionally besmirching their picks. It’s all in good fun. If it does bother you, feel free to mock Jeff Jarrett. I’m a big boy. I can take it. Hell, half the time I criticize the foibles of my own selections.

Apr 12, 2020 3:54:42 GMT Baker said:

Wade Barrett- Kilgore and I disagree once again. He couldn't stand Dolph but thought Barrett had potential. I liked Dolph but thought Barrett was a bore. Wade struck me as a generic brawler with more than a whiff of 2000s OVW assembly line robot about him. He had a stupid finisher and then he had another stupid finisher. I was briefly intrigued by Bad News Barrett until I realized it wasn't a Bad News Brown ripoff but Barrett delivering proclamations from a dangerously high platform.

Wade was a boring brawler which is precisely why him making proclamations on a dangerously high platform is his peak. 

Apr 11, 2020 23:52:27 GMT Kilgore said:

Dolph Ziggler: Everything I dislike about Shawn Michaels' style and ultimate influence on wrestling is embodied by Dolph Ziggler. Flash being misinterpreted as craft, bumping being equated to selling, putting on a show being more important than simulating an attempt to actually win, ultimately the most vapid bullshit. [...] That's Dolph Ziggler. Every gesture is empty. He can make someone's offense look good at that moment, but it's all ultimately meaningless and for nothing.

Bravo, Kilgore.



You are absolutely right. I've had this same opinion of Dolph Ziggler for years, but never been able to explain it as well as you have. Ziggler is the shits.

Now I want to see Strobe's Seth Rollins rant. Come on, Strobe. You know you want to. PW wants it.

#119 Kairi Sane
3 Votes- 61 Points
High Vote: #20

#120 Harley Race
2 Votes- 61 Points
High Vote: #4

#121 Big Boss Man
2 Votes- 61 Points
High Vote: #8

#122 Beth Phoenix
2 Votes- 59 Points
High Vote: #16

#123 Jon Moxley/Dean Ambrose
4 Votes- 56 Points
High Vote: #18
Last Time: #31

#124 Jamie Noble
4 Votes- 54 Points
High Vote: #7

The Shield took a beating this time around with all three members falling out of the Top 100 and only Ambrose coming remotely close.

I'm usually loathe to even hint at spoilers but I don't want modern fans to get discouraged and go away. So *spoiler alert* there are plenty of modern wrestlers represented in the Top 100.

Nobody from this batch made my list. But Beth, Harley, and Bossman did make my big Honorable Mentions list of 200. Be back later to discuss them and the others.

Beth and Harley would've been the closest to make my list. Beth was great in her time, showed real personality, but could really work a decent match with just about anyone. Coming from me that's high praise as I tend to never watch women's matches.

I always liked Harley better in theory rather in actuality. He's a great storyline character and a real tough guy that you'd never want to get on the wrong side of. He was also extremely giving and teaching to those he felt should get that rub. Then he started his academy and trained a lot of the kids of former wrestlers. He like Dusty before him on this list could give you that promo that would take a regular feud and really put it over the top. He defined the 70's for the NWA and was the perfect champ during that time.

Apr 11, 2020 23:52:27 GMT Kilgore said:

Dolph Ziggler: Everything I dislike about Shawn Michaels' style and ultimate influence on wrestling is embodied by Dolph Ziggler. Flash being misinterpreted as craft, bumping being equated to selling, putting on a show being more important than simulating an attempt to actually win, ultimately the most vapid bullshit. I think the definitive example of Ziggler is his crowning achievement when he beat ADR for the big gold belt; he's selling his left arm for the big finish, he gets his (bad) finisher and the pin, match over and immediately starts flexing with his left arm, the ref raises his left arm to be the champion, he flexes with the belt in his left arm. Five seconds prior he couldn't move it. That's Dolph Ziggler. Every gesture is empty. He can make someone's offense look good at that moment, but it's all ultimately meaningless and for nothing. This is Shawn selling a leg the entire Ladder Match rematch against Razor, then dancing on it during his comeback and post match celebration, or his selling the back against Triple H in his return, then doing back flips like it's fine all of a sudden fine. Bumping does not equal selling.

Oh, please. Get out of here with that nitpicky nonsense. Yeah, I agree that is not an ideal thing he does and that it negatively affects the show, but 90% of all wrestlers also do it. And he sells those bumps so well before-hand that I am inclined to believe that it was real and he was just miraculously cured each time. Making the offense look good in the moment is not ultimately meaningless because it looks damn good and myself and tons of others enjoy it, which is the whole point because in the end it really is a show. We already know it's fake at the end of the day anyway, so it's not like it's completely ridiculous. Why does every tag team in the world suddenly become incapacitated after basic moves for insane amounts of time that allow the other team to win...but then recover from far more brutal moves during the same match in seconds? It would be great if this sort of thing didn't happen, but it's very common.

Tons of amazing singles wrestlers do things to take you out of it too. I just saw Okada and Ospreay instantly twist their body 180 degrees after falling to the ground while supposedly in too much pain to move to prepare themselves for the next move being done to them and rolled my eyes...doesn't make them bad wrestlers. You can replace the words intensity and heart with flash all you want, but the bottom line is that haters are gonna hate.

Plus there is nothing dislikable about Shawn Michaels, the ultimate god of wrestling.

I’m the biggest HBK fan there is and even I know that’s not true. LOL

I live for Pro Wrestling analysis. Whenever Stone Cold, Kevin Nash or Scott Hall break down a spot I'm all ears so I found that insight fascinating.

I wonder if his Survivor Series 2014 performance holds up? That was the one time where I was sure he'd take his game to the next level and cement himself as a main event star. Maybe I was just drinking the kool-aid, I'd have to go back and see.

Apr 12, 2020 17:06:41 GMT Lionheart said:

Oh, please. Get out of here with that nitpicky nonsense. Yeah, I agree that is not an ideal thing he does and that it negatively affects the show, but 90% of all wrestlers also do it.

No. Not to Ziggler's extent.

Apr 12, 2020 17:06:41 GMT Lionheart said:

We already know it's fake at the end of the day anyway, so it's not like it's completely ridiculous.

So that means we have to sit back and enjoy whatever is in front of us no matter how stupid we think it is? Of course we know it's fake, but suspension of disbelief is a huge part of what makes pro-wrestling compelling, and Ziggler makes that very hard to accomplish when he's clearly trying to tick the boxes of what makes a great match, rather than acting like his character is actually trying to win.

Apr 12, 2020 17:06:41 GMT Lionheart said:

Apr 11, 2020 23:52:27 GMT Kilgore said:

Dolph Ziggler: Everything I dislike about Shawn Michaels' style and ultimate influence on wrestling is embodied by Dolph Ziggler. Flash being misinterpreted as craft, bumping being equated to selling, putting on a show being more important than simulating an attempt to actually win, ultimately the most vapid bullshit. I think the definitive example of Ziggler is his crowning achievement when he beat ADR for the big gold belt; he's selling his left arm for the big finish, he gets his (bad) finisher and the pin, match over and immediately starts flexing with his left arm, the ref raises his left arm to be the champion, he flexes with the belt in his left arm. Five seconds prior he couldn't move it. That's Dolph Ziggler. Every gesture is empty. He can make someone's offense look good at that moment, but it's all ultimately meaningless and for nothing. This is Shawn selling a leg the entire Ladder Match rematch against Razor, then dancing on it during his comeback and post match celebration, or his selling the back against Triple H in his return, then doing back flips like it's fine all of a sudden fine. Bumping does not equal selling.

Oh, please. Get out of here with that nitpicky nonsense. Yeah, I agree that is not an ideal thing he does and that it negatively affects the show, but 90% of all wrestlers also do it. And he sells those bumps so well before-hand that I am inclined to believe that it was real and he was just miraculously cured each time. Making the offense look good in the moment is not ultimately meaningless because it looks damn good and myself and tons of others enjoy it, which is the whole point because in the end it really is a show. We already know it's fake at the end of the day anyway, so it's not like it's completely ridiculous. Why does every tag team in the world suddenly become incapacitated after basic moves for insane amounts of time that allow the other team to win...but then recover from far more brutal moves during the same match in seconds? It would be great if this sort of thing didn't happen, but it's very common.

Tons of amazing singles wrestlers do things to take you out of it too. I just saw Okada and Ospreay instantly twist their body 180 degrees after falling to the ground while supposedly in too much pain to move to prepare themselves for the next move being done to them and rolled my eyes...doesn't make them bad wrestlers. You can replace the words intensity and heart with flash all you want, but the bottom line is that haters are gonna hate.

Plus there is nothing dislikable about Shawn Michaels, the ultimate god of wrestling.

Well yeah, opinions and stuff.  My eyes can't handle it, now I'm hearing the lyrics to Lyin' Eyes out of nowhere.  

Apr 12, 2020 18:52:50 GMT Emperor said:

Apr 12, 2020 17:06:41 GMT Lionheart said:

Oh, please. Get out of here with that nitpicky nonsense. Yeah, I agree that is not an ideal thing he does and that it negatively affects the show, but 90% of all wrestlers also do it.

No. Not to Ziggler's extent.

Apr 12, 2020 17:06:41 GMT Lionheart said:

We already know it's fake at the end of the day anyway, so it's not like it's completely ridiculous.

So that means we have to sit back and enjoy whatever is in front of us no matter how stupid we think it is? Of course we know it's fake, but suspension of disbelief is a huge part of what makes pro-wrestling compelling, and Ziggler makes that very hard to accomplish when he's clearly trying to tick the boxes of what makes a great match, rather than acting like his character is actually trying to win.

I knew as I wrote the post someone would quote that single part of it and criticize it without the surrounding context!

Suspension of disbelief is important, which is exactly why I said it was not ideal. Every other wrestler still does similar stuff. Maybe it doesn’t pet peeve you as much as Ziggler so you don’t mind so much, but it doesn’t make him a terrible wrestler.

I have a feeling that you would hate Ziggler the same regardless of this selling thing though. Hell, I’ve never even noticed him doing it but I’ve noticed others do it before. I think these things are more noticeable when you look at someone with such a critical eye to begin with.

This perceived checking of boxes during the match is probably the real reason you hate him, but I don’t get it myself. Trying to make the match good sounds like the best thing for the match to me. Every heel does showboating instead of going for the win, even in high-profile matches. There could be a difference between that and what you are talking about, but I don’t know what it is.

Lionheart At a loss why as to why you think people have just randomly decided to be harder on Ziggler than every other wrestler like we've taken a meeting and decided to get him, when the much more simple explanation is Ziggler is just worse at doing this than most.