Apr 12, 2020 19:39:19 GMT Kilgore said:

Lionheart At a loss why as to why you think people have just randomly decided to be harder on Ziggler than every other wrestler like we've taken a meeting and decided to get him, when the much more simple explanation is Ziggler is just worse at doing this than most.

Oh yes, great point. “Why do we not like him? Why are you wondering!? Either it’s a conspiracy or he’s just bad!”

Okay, why is he bad? Thanks for taking the conversation around an unnecessary loop.

By the way, most people do like him. You are the minority. Nice try though.

Wait a second, I just realized his high vote is #4. What the fuck? That is seriously wack. No wonder people are upset. I am upset now too.

I completely reverse my opinion in this argument. That is an insane placement.

I completely agree with Kilgore on Ziggler. He bumps well and he can execute as well as most but he's so unconvincing. I always get the impression from him that he's more interested in getting snowflakes from Meltzer than actually winning a wrestling match. I just can't believe in him.

I didn't vote for Dolph, he never entered my mind as he's never been remotely close to a favorite.

It's not like Ziggler is the only wrestler who does this, but he is one of the more egregious examples since he has been in the WWE forever and has barely evolved his style at all, content to bust out the same "great match" formula again and again regardless of who he is wrestling, never adapting, never changing. That coupled with other unlikeable traits makes him one of my least favourite wrestlers.

For example, his gimmick. I don't know if he still does it, but for a period of time his whole character was about "stealing the show", and he would always cut promos about how he would have the best match of the show, seemingly not caring about holding championships or winning.

The funny thing is that workrate wrestling has evolved and Ziggler has not evolved with it. Now you have guys in NXT (namely the whole male roster) working a "Ziggler match", but on a much grander and more popular scale. I ought to say I dislike most of modern NXT matches for similar reasons to why I dislike Ziggler.

Apr 12, 2020 19:50:31 GMT Lionheart said:

Apr 12, 2020 19:39:19 GMT Kilgore said:

Lionheart At a loss why as to why you think people have just randomly decided to be harder on Ziggler than every other wrestler like we've taken a meeting and decided to get him, when the much more simple explanation is Ziggler is just worse at doing this than most.

Oh yes, great point. “Why do we not like him? Why are you wondering!? Either it’s a conspiracy or he’s just bad!”

Okay, why is he bad? Thanks for taking the conversation around an unnecessary loop.

By the way, most people do like him. You are the minority. Nice try though.

Going by TV ratings and what not I would say we are in the majority.

And this statement is why guys think it's ok to do dumb shit like dick suplexes and fight 9 year old girls.

We already know it's fake at the end of the day anyway, so it's not like it's completely ridiculous.

Apr 12, 2020 19:53:21 GMT Lionheart said:

Wait a second, I just realized his high vote is #4. What the fuck? That is seriously wack. No wonder people are upset. I am upset now too.

I completely reverse my opinion in this argument. That is an insane placement.

Why? It’s a favorites list; not a “who’s best” list. Someone placed D-Lo Brown #2 on their list and I have a couple questionable high placements just like everyone else.

People calmly explain what they don't like about Ziggler's style. You insist people must have ulterior motives.

Apr 12, 2020 17:06:41 GMT Lionheart said:

You can replace the words intensity and heart with flash all you want, but the bottom line is that haters are gonna hate.

Apr 12, 2020 19:16:59 GMT Lionheart said:

I have a feeling that you would hate Ziggler the same regardless of this selling thing though. Hell, I’ve never even noticed him doing it but I’ve noticed others do it before. I think these things are more noticeable when you look at someone with such a critical eye to begin with.

I say, no, people genuinely find his style bad, it's not some conspiracy and you retort with:

Apr 12, 2020 19:50:31 GMT Lionheart said:

Apr 12, 2020 19:39:19 GMT Kilgore said:

Lionheart At a loss why as to why you think people have just randomly decided to be harder on Ziggler than every other wrestler like we've taken a meeting and decided to get him, when the much more simple explanation is Ziggler is just worse at doing this than most.

Oh yes, great point. “Why do we not like him? Why are you wondering!? Either it’s a conspiracy or he’s just bad!”

Okay, why is he bad? Thanks for taking the conversation around an unnecessary loop.

Who, really, is creating the unnecessary loop here? I don't know what to tell you, dude. I think Ziggler kind of sucks. Who fucking cares?

120. Harley Race: 2-61 (4)

My highest ranked oldie and likely if he was around 20 years later he would have been number one. I go back and forth on this, but given wrestling at the time, I can make an argument he's the best wrestler that ever lived. He was good at everything, and he is one of the very few, if not the only, wrestlers who can be a legit bad-ass and still get stooged and embarrassed and hoky-sell to get a babyface over. Then the next night, right back to being a bad-ass. Triple H could do it but didn't do it enough. Race always got you over, but never at the expense of himself. Carried the title with such legitimacy, I wish I were alive to witness it as it happened. Still, it doesn't deter me from this high placement.

No considerations this time, but a few notes. I've said what I need to say about Dolph, and I too wait with eager anticipation for Strobe's takedown of Seth Rollins before I chime in.

Another thing Kilgore in bang on about is Bayley. It's easy to say she's been mishandled because so much WWE talent truly is, but she got saddled with a shitty gimmick that got over because it was stupid. It's always much easier to get something like that over in front of a cult crowd that follows it every week, much harder on a national platform like WWE TV.

I always liked D'Lo Brown and he did have insane athleticism. The lift he got on the Lo Down was phenomenal considering he wasn't the tallest guy. Always thought his biggest problem was his look, he was fat for most of his run and he lacked marketability as a result.

Apr 12, 2020 20:51:29 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Jamie Noble - 7 // ugh. I hate that there is one of you out there who gave him a 6. Knowing someone on Pw loves Jamie Noble one spot above me is going to really bother me. 

Again. I hate that one of you like him one spot more than me. I’m going to force myself to like him more now. Or to at least like the 6 above him less.

D'oh! My bad.

Fear not! I screwed up when writing down the high score. You were the high vote at #7, not #6. I double checked the scoring just to be sure. Scoring is accurate. I'll fix my mistake in a minute.

Apr 12, 2020 20:06:04 GMT Kilgore said:

People calmly explain what they don't like about Ziggler's style. You insist people must have ulterior motives.

Apr 12, 2020 17:06:41 GMT Lionheart said:

You can replace the words intensity and heart with flash all you want, but the bottom line is that haters are gonna hate.

Apr 12, 2020 19:16:59 GMT Lionheart said:

I have a feeling that you would hate Ziggler the same regardless of this selling thing though. Hell, I’ve never even noticed him doing it but I’ve noticed others do it before. I think these things are more noticeable when you look at someone with such a critical eye to begin with.

I say, no, people genuinely find his style bad, it's not some conspiracy and you retort with:

Apr 12, 2020 19:50:31 GMT Lionheart said:

Oh yes, great point. “Why do we not like him? Why are you wondering!? Either it’s a conspiracy or he’s just bad!”

Okay, why is he bad? Thanks for taking the conversation around an unnecessary loop.

Who, really, is creating the unnecessary loop here? I don't know what to tell you, dude. I think Ziggler kind of sucks. Who fucking cares?

I did not insist anyone had ulterior motives. All I said is it's easy to see legitimate flaws when you are focused on someone you already dislike, not that your hate isn't real. I do the same thing with wrestlers I hate. I doubt you were neutral on Ziggler and then suddenly noticed he stops selling when the match ends and was like "wait a second, I hate that guy!". Forgive me if that is actually the case. I'm sure it was a relevant contributor to your opinion in any case.

The point was that every wrestler has something you could pinpoint in on and Ziggler's flaw you mentioned was not the smoking gun you made it out to be. If that is the sole reason you hate him, sure, that's fine. But you tied it into saying that one flaw defines him which I thought was a bit unfair considering its prevalence in other wrestlers. I also wasn't sure what Emperor means by checking all the boxes, which he is welcome to clarify.

It is clear you think Ziggler sucks and genuinely find his style bad. I don't and am on a sacred and holy quest to prove his greatness. Defy me at your own peril.

Apr 12, 2020 20:00:56 GMT @theshow said:

Apr 12, 2020 19:53:21 GMT Lionheart said:

Wait a second, I just realized his high vote is #4. What the fuck? That is seriously wack. No wonder people are upset. I am upset now too.

I completely reverse my opinion in this argument. That is an insane placement.

Why? It’s a favorites list; not a “who’s best” list. Someone placed D-Lo Brown #2 on their list and I have a couple questionable high placements just like everyone else.

A fair point. You are definitely more reasonable than the D-Lo vote guy. Why do you like Ziggler so much?

Apr 12, 2020 22:30:57 GMT Lionheart said:

Apr 12, 2020 20:00:56 GMT @theshow said:

Why? It’s a favorites list; not a “who’s best” list. Someone placed D-Lo Brown #2 on their list and I have a couple questionable high placements just like everyone else.

A fair point. You are definitely more reasonable than the D-Lo vote guy. Why do you like Ziggler so much?

I didn’t vote for him. I was just saying.

I've got a lot to catch up on in this thread, but can I just say in the meantime...

Collectively we absolutely need to ensure there is at least one applauding Rock gif on every page of this thread.

Apr 12, 2020 22:53:44 GMT 🤯 said:

I've got a lot to catch up on in this thread, but can I just say in the meantime...

Collectively we absolutely need to ensure there is at least one applauding Rock gif on every page of this thread.

And one of these:

You all may hate him now, but just you wait. Look at that phenomenal acting.

Beth was the only one from off my list. IMO a great and important addition to the Women's Division. A powerhouse female with personality.
#122 Beth Phoenix
2 Votes- 59 Points
High Vote: #16

I missed putting Harley Race on my list because I missed his 'hey days'. When I was growing up you had Hogan and Macho Man. He didn't make an impact to me until later and actual wrestling became more important to me over character and entertainment.
#120 Harley Race
2 Votes- 61 Points
High Vote: #4

Apr 12, 2020 12:29:06 GMT Emperor said:

Now I want to see Strobe 's Seth Rollins rant. Come on, Strobe . You know you want to. PW wants it.

Nothing about him interests me. He doesn't have a presence that makes me take notice.

His voice is shit. His promo delivery is shit. He lacks the tone, cadence, emotion, charisma, believability, even humour that helps make good promos.

He isn't likeable and isn't a good face. He doesn't garner sympathy from me. Doesn't make me to see want to see him kick someone's ass. Doesn't show great, believable babyface fire.

He has a ratty, scumbag look to him so could be a good heel, but still tries to pop the crowd with his high spots. Doesn't make me want to see his ass kicked, just makes me want to stop watching him.

A guy who does a powerbomb into the barricade, not as an injury angle, not as a finisher, not as the spot that the opponent is never really able to recover from, but as the spot to introduce his heat segment.

Or does a superplex roll-through into a falcon arrow as just another high spot when that has the potential to be the finisher in a megamatch when he needs something a bit extra.

With him, everything has to be fast and involve motion. Even if he occasionally grabs at the body part he should be selling, it doesn't matter because he'll still be charging about and hitting all his shit at speed because he's decided he always has to hit all his shit. And at speed.

He has a good physique and has great athleticism and timing, but so do a sea of wrestlers today, so he doesn't even stand out in that regard.

What else? His belt swinging is shit. His facial expressions aren't all-time bad like Kenny Omega but I've never been particularly impressed by them. The "Burn It Down" catchphrase was shit. His entrance music is shit. He is shagging Becky Lynch and I'm not - that's shit.

I can picture most main eventers from wrestling history being main eventers in almost any other era. I can't picture Rollins being a main eventer in any previous era. Inconceivable to me. He'd be a tag guy and that's what he should be today. Let someone who can emote and engage be his Ricky Morton and he can get the hot tag and hit all his spots to his heart's content.

I have lots of issues with modern wrestling and he is basically the personification of them.

I haven't seen too much from the last couple of years, so maybe he has become a master of psychology and storytelling and eliciting emotion. But I highly, highly doubt it.

Obviously shit is being used a tad hyperbolically here. Only a tad.

Apr 12, 2020 20:00:56 GMT @theshow said:

Apr 12, 2020 19:53:21 GMT Lionheart said:

Wait a second, I just realized his high vote is #4. What the fuck? That is seriously wack. No wonder people are upset. I am upset now too.

I completely reverse my opinion in this argument. That is an insane placement.

Why? It’s a favorites list; not a “who’s best” list. Someone placed D-Lo Brown #2 on their list and I have a couple questionable high placements just like everyone else.

I went from Super Mod, the King of the Forums, Money in the Bank winner, and two time PW Wrestlemania main event winner to ... “someone”. #Voxtzsucks lol

but I agree completely. A “favorites” list is going to be highly subjective, and unique to many. 

Three more have appeared from my list in the last two updates.

I imagine I look pretty insane to most people for having Bayley as my number 27, but she was legitimately my favourite wrestler in the world for more than a year. I think people’s opinions on Bayley vary a huge amount depending on when you started watching. She had this incredible arc from the early days of NXT from just glad to be there, to improving but lacking confidence, to taking no more shit while still staying true to herself. Her gimmick wasn’t silly - it was very simple, she was a down-to-earth wrestling fan who finally made it and wanted to be a positive role model for girls like her to grow up and do the same thing. Her match against Sasha at Brooklyn is one of my favourite matches of all time because I was so invested in her story. What then pushed Bayley over the top into incredible status in my eyes is that after Sasha/Becky/Charlotte all got called up at once, Bayley had to make chicken salad out of chicken shit - and that’s exactly what she did. She got good matches out of Nia, Carmella, Alexa, and even Eva Marie when they were all very green. She proved herself to be worthy of the title and improved everyone she got into the ring with, before ending her NXT run with two more classics against Asuka.

Now we deal with the revisionist history that we’re seeing in this thread about Bayley on the main roster. Bayley did not fail because of her gimmick on the main roster. She got called up, was very over, and won the title from Charlotte, producing another great match against Charlotte on Raw in the process. Then what happened? WWE booking. They put her in an all-time-terrible segment of This is your Life, that had nothing to do with Bayley’s actual character. They had a storyline based on how Bayley was too nice to get the win, leading to a kendo stick match against Alexa. What should have happened if character development or story-telling mattered? Bayley would show that she’s not a pushover, like the bully Alexa has been calling her, use the kendo stick, and teach the heel a lesson. Instead they do the one thing that will always kill a baby face dead - they make them look incredibly stupid. She won’t use the kendo stick, Alexa will, so Alexa wins the title. This is nothing to do with Bayley’s character, NXT Bayley had already shown the growth to go the extra mile - this was pure nonsense. She never gets revenge and just looks like a total dork. Then we spend six months teasing a break-up/feud with Sasha, Bayley finally shows some development by snapping on Sasha...but wait...we want tag titles, so lets ignore that and put them back together. In Bayley they had a wrestler who understood how to tell a story more than nearly anyone else on the roster, but they killed her character dead - even though she had all the potential to be a female John Cena. Her heel turn was interesting for a week, but they had no faces to go up against her, so she’s been treading water for months. So if we had done this list two years ago, she’d probably have been even higher - but like most modern wrestlers, they are so held back by the schizophrenic and illogical booking that means no one is over.

Next is Nikki Bella, and most have said what I want to say. The Bellas has proven that they love wrestling, are willing to work hard at it, but are also smart enough to not have to rely on it. Nikkisawa did some great stuff during some pretty dry days for women’s wrestling, but what really sealed her favourite status with me was how selfless she was when she returned at the beginning of the brand split, and did wonders for getting Carmella over and then giving Nattie her only good feud, letting others be in the title picture.

Finally, I love Jamie Noble. He brought some much needed character work to WWE’s cruiserwight division, had a great run in ROH showing what he was like with no restrictions, and then did The Stooges better than the Stooges in J&J Security. Could do it all.

27. Bayley
34. Nigel McGuinness
40. Sheamus
42. Kofi Kingston
43. Nikki Bella
46. Ronda Rousey
47. Jamie Noble
49. Jeff Jarrett

I really liked PB 's writeup on Bayley in the above post. WWE ruins everybody lol.

Beth Phoenix- Was in the 100s on my big list. Initially had her in the Top 100 but she got bumped out late as I thought of more people.

I loved Beth. She was great. Such a badass. The second coming of Chyna, but infinitely better in the ring, though without quite the "wow" factor of the 9th Wonder. Beth is particularly memorable for her awesome strongwoman spots. Well, that and doing cruel things to poor Melina. Most notably tying her up in some super sick submissions. Beth had a great look, great presence, and a bunch of cool powerhouse moves.

Beth was also quite versatile. One of the highlights of awesome 2005 OVW was a "menage a trois" stable with our guy Idol Stevens as a Rick Rude style ladies man, Shelley (WWECW's Ariel) as his "bad girl," and Beth as his ditzy, innocent "good girl." Using badass Beth in that role is all time bad casting on paper. But Beth made it work. She was surprisingly great in this role.

I was also a big fan of the Beth/Santino pairing. In fact, my big idea at the time was for Beth to help Santino win approximately 100% of his matches. Santino would get more and more cocky as he approached the Honkameter. He'd start taking all the credit for his victories. Beth would get more and more annoyed by his gloating. Until....

BAM! Beth, having finally had enough, would challenge Santino and win the IC Title as close as possible to Santino breaking HTM's record. Santino would be a victim of his own hubris while Beth's ultimate destiny as the second coming of Chyna would be fulfilled when she becomes the second woman in WWE history to win the IC Title.

Speaking of awesome fanfic ideas, for years I've wanted to do a big Beth/Chyna feud in a PW draft. One of these days....
===========================
Harley Race- Was also in the 100s on my big list. It surprisingly took until the very last voter to get Harley over 50 points. Glad that person came through.

"King" Harley Race was one of my favorites when I first got into wrestling. He was an early example of the type of "annoying" heel I have always been a fan of. I played along at home to his "royalty" gimmick, much to the consternation of my brother. Had a memorable match with Hogan which featured the first table bump most fans of my generation ever saw. I would also show my respects to "The King" during the bizarre "Harley In The Sky With Diamonds" angle where they treated Race as if he were dead. My dad hated this angle btw. It used to annoy him so much lol.

For all intents and purposes, Harley was done after that. A few years later I would discover Race was a multiple time NWA Champion. Mind blown! This was super weird to young me. I liked King Harley. Loved him even! But even as a kid I just did not see him as World Champion material. It was another "lol NWA" moment to young me. IC Title? Sure! World Champion? No way! It would be nearly another decade before I could even begin to understand how Harley Race had ever been a world champion.

Anyway, I really enjoy watching Race wrestle. He's got this methodical, yet never boring style reminiscent of a Greg Valentine or even Ric Flair. Race is the undisputed suplex king of 80s (US) wrestling. For better or worse, popularized the diving headbutt. He had a bunch of cool signature bumps and sells that have all been stolen many times over. He is also one of my favorite Hulk Hogan opponents. They had a bunch of good matches together. Check 'em out.

Plus he gets bonus points for having a Hall of Fame look with The Lemmy + afro. It's no wonder HHH stole his facial hair...along with a bunch of other things.
============================
Big Boss Man- Was in the 120s on my big list.

I first caught the future Bossman as Big Bubba in late 80s NWA. He did not leave a lasting impression. Pretty sure I didn't even view him as a "real" wrestler. He was more of a "bodyguard." Like Virgil.

But he won me over real quick when he came to WWF as a sadistic bully who would assault jobbers by whacking them with his nightstick while they were handcuffed to the ropes. Apparently I too was a sadist because I liked this jerk! I was super into his Twin Towers team with Akeem and their feud with the hated Hulkster. I marked out so hard when the Towers eliminated Hogan from the 1989 Royal Rumble. Bossman, like Race, is a top tier Hogan opponent. Their SNME cagematch was a particularly memorable bout featuring Hogan superplexing the 350 pound Bossman from the top of the cage(!) in the 1989 WWF equivalent of Foley's HIAC bumps. 

As was usually the case back then, my young heel loving self turned on Bossman once he turned face. Though we did get his iconic and awesome Hard Times theme out of it. So it wasn't all bad. But, yeah, nobody who feuded with Mr. Perfect and Da Mountie was ever going to be a favorite of mine. I came back around on BBM a tiny bit when he feuded with that creepy psycho Nailz just because Bossman was the lesser of two evils. Then he left WWF.

As was the case with many of his "dinosaur" peers, Bossman mostly had go away heat with me in WCW. The one time I cared about him again was during his feud with fellow "dinosaur" John "Earthquake" Tenta. Bossman was SUCH a dick in that feud that he helped me (briefly) become a John Tenta fan all over again.

Then he came back to WWE during the height of the Attitude Era. Hated this! Hated him. "Take that crap back to the 80s!"- late 90s Baker. 

But you know what? Hindsight has been kind to Attitude Era Bossman. Again, he was SUCH a dick. He didn't just cross the line. He obliterated it. The stuff he did to Snow & Show was next level heeling. Ditto for that time he teased turning babyface, even popping my friends and I by coming out to Hard Times, only to swerve us all. So, yeah, Bossman was the best heel in wrestling circa 1999. Don't @ me. 

In closing, Big Boss Man was an iconic character and a damn fine professional wrestler. He was super quick for a big fella. Also took great big man bumps. Threw an all time great punch. Innovated more moves than you'd think. Had some great signature sells like when he'd spit up his "tooth." GREAT heel who also portrayed an effective babyface. Looked the part. I mean, when you think "Southern cop" you think of somebody who looks just like The Big Boss Man. 
==============================
*I'll cover the other three later. Be forewarned. Two of them are fixing to get Zigglered. Can't wait!

Jamie Noble - The only time I took any notice of him was when he was harrassing Michelle McCool and getting the better of her 'friend' Chuck Palumbo. Otherwise he was Kaz Hayushi's lackey in the perfectly cromulent Jung Dragons.

Dean Ambrose - He was my favourite member of the Shield but over time it became clear he was a terrible fit for the WWE and by the end he was the worst character in all of Pro Wrestling. He's done well to wash his hands of it and he's one of the more enjoyable guys out there but he's still got a lot of ground to cover.

Beth Phoenix - She doesn't always come to mind right away, but she was one of the better women's wrestlers to come along. Not only was she a stand out women's wrestler, but she was one of the better performers they had on the roster and belonged on every card they ran.

Big Boss Man - If I had to pick a Top 10 least favourite Boss Man would have been right up there. I found his work so boring and as bad as WCW could be, they weren't Boss Man/Big Show for the WWF Title on PPV bad. My stance has softened over the years but from when I started watching, I wish he had have pursued a career in poetry instead of wrestling.

Harley Race - Had long since retired since I started watching so I didn't vote for him. I've liked what I've see of him, namely in WCCW, but he was before my time.

Kairi Sane - She's one of my favourite acts in Pro Wrestling. The Kabuki Warriors was initially DOA until they just handed them the ball and they just ran with it. Still has room for improvement, but she's a joy to watch and would have made my Top 100.

Apr 13, 2020 0:58:13 GMT PB said:

I imagine I look pretty insane to most people for having Bayley as my number 27, but she was legitimately my favourite wrestler in the world for more than a year. I think people’s opinions on Bayley vary a huge amount depending on when you started watching. She had this incredible arc from the early days of NXT from just glad to be there, to improving but lacking confidence, to taking no more shit while still staying true to herself. Her gimmick wasn’t silly - it was very simple, she was a down-to-earth wrestling fan who finally made it and wanted to be a positive role model for girls like her to grow up and do the same thing. Her match against Sasha at Brooklyn is one of my favourite matches of all time because I was so invested in her story. What then pushed Bayley over the top into incredible status in my eyes is that after Sasha/Becky/Charlotte all got called up at once, Bayley had to make chicken salad out of chicken shit - and that’s exactly what she did. She got good matches out of Nia, Carmella, Alexa, and even Eva Marie when they were all very green. She proved herself to be worthy of the title and improved everyone she got into the ring with, before ending her NXT run with two more classics against Asuka.

This is exactly how I feel about Bayley. That period of women's wrestling in NXT was among the best wrestling in the world. Sasha Banks was my favourite for a long time, then Bayley did the unthinkable and eclipsed her, for exactly the reasons stated by PB above.

Regrettably, WWE has ruined her so much, more than anyone else I can think of, that I can hardly motivate myself to write about how much I used to like her, much less watch anything she's up to these days. She doesn't come across like the top tier worker she can be. Not for a long time.

I posted that at 2am when I couldn't sleep and was tossing and turning worried because Bayley ranked quite well but no one was defending her yet.

Only one from my list in the last lot.

16. Beth Phoenix

I loved Beth. I still do. Baker covered a lot of why I love Beth in his post, she was just so versatile, in the comedy role with Santino (which I loved, they really both made that crap gimmick work). I would also have loved to see it play out the way Baker suggested with Beth winning the IC title at the end of it. She might not be the best technically in the ring (arguably that's Nattie) but she had a real presence and charisma. Even now all these years later she can still go in the ring, watch her performance in this year's Rumble as proof of that, and then if you haven't watched the Edge doc on the network yet, please do because you see another side to Beth which is just as strong as her in ring persona. She's a badass, helping her husband prepare for his return all alongside her NXT commentary duties. I wasn't sold on her as a commentator at the start but she's grown into that role too. All these are why she is the high pick of 16 on my list.

I've got my torches lit and pitchforks sharpened. Let's do this....

Kairi Sane- I've only seen her in action one time. Good match though! It was Sane & Asuka vs. Becky & Charlotte on Raw a few months back. Unfortunately, Sane had the least important role in that bout and left no lasting impression one way or the other. I feel like maybe she was also overshadowed by her partner, Asuka? Dean Baker Grade: Incomplete.
=================
Dean Ambrose- Keep in mind I'm pretty sure I've only seen "Shield" Ambrose. And even that was a fairly small sample size. With that being said....

I had a lot of time for Reigns & Rollins in their Shield days. Reigns was a perfectly cromulent Terry Gordy. Rollins was....actually nothing like Michael Hayes, but he was good in his own completely different sort of way, so let's just go with it for the sake of this comparison. And then there was Dean Ambrose as this Buddy Robertsesque geek tagging along with the cooler kids.

I thought Dean Ambrose sucked. He was a brawler who couldn't brawl. He'd throw these hilarious spastic punches with half of them clearly missing. And then there are the silly facial expressions. Most notably the time some wrestler (I forget who) did a simple go behind and this clown responds with an ecstatic "getting a blow job" look on his face. Sure, I laughed. It was hilarious. But this was a blood feud against Evolution or the Wyatts or somebody like that! Not a comedy match! He also struck me as an unathletic plodfoot. In particular, his slooooow rebound lariat never failed to elicit a chuckle or two. He also had one of the worst matches I saw during the entire last decade against RVD. It was dull, heatless, and went on forever.

EDIT: Actually I did see Ambrose at least once-post Shield. I forget the exact details, but he was doing this awful third rate Stone Cold-meets-Bugs Bunny crap. 

Maybe I watched the wrong matches. Maybe he got better when he left The Shield eventually. But from what I have seen Dean Ambrose was even worse than....
=================
Jamie Noble- jTjohncenaGOAT is gonna hate me for this and even 🤯 might like me a little less. But Jamie Noble did nothing for me. I thought he sucked.

Noble is right up there with Finlay and 2000s Regal when it comes to smark darlings I just didn't get. I suppose Noble was a victim of his own hype. If nobody cared about him I probably wouldn't have disliked him so much. But people loved this jabroni!....For some reason. People in the know were even talking him up as "the next Dean Malenko" way back in his developmental days. As a fan of Deano Machino I couldn't wait to see this guy. He finally comes to WWF....

Where he wrestles NOTHING like Dean Malenko! But a whole lot like some random Junior Heavyweight from 1983. But, like, in a bad way. I was still a movez guy back then. And I was DEFINITELY a movez guy when it came to Cruiserweights. I mean, movez were their entire reason for existing. So this rat-faced geek with his 1983 offense held zero appeal for me.

You'd think maybe I could at least appreciate the fact that a cruiserweight had a character for once. But nah. His character did nothing for me. I thought all his sports entertainment stuff sucked. He just never clicked with me on any level. Really one of my least favorites of the 2000s.

I've seen less than 5 matches from his supposedly great ROH run. All of them were forgettable "just there" encounters with his lack of movez sticking out like a sore thumb more than ever in The Land of Movez.

Since I don't want this to be a 100% negative post I will say Noble had an excellent snap powerslam and I liked the way he did irish whips in the style of Chris Benoit. And right when I was getting out of wrestling in the late 2000s he took a few nice beatings in squash matches on WWECW. This leads to me believe he could have been a decent tv jobber had he come along 10-15 years earlier. Next Dean Malenko? LOL no. Second coming of Reno Riggins? Sure!

It's also true that my tastes have changed considerably since Noble's 2000s heyday. Maybe I'd have more time for Noble today. But then I ask myself "Why would I watch Jamie Noble matches when there is still so much Jacques Rougeau out there I haven't seen or don't remember??"

For long time I had a similar opinion of Dean Ambrose as Baker. Brawler who couldn't brawl, soft offense, clumsy, unable to work a compelling singles match. And I stand by those beliefs. Dude was a fantastic promo, but didn't have much else.

Everything changed in the summer of 2019. A creatively frustrated and depressed Dean Ambrose left the WWE, and was reborn as Jon Moxley, first in NJPW and then AEW. His first in-ring appearance was a victory against Juice Robinson at Dominion. It was a wild hardcore brawl kinda match, good, but nothing spectacular. He then signed up to compete in the G1 Climax, where he went on an incredible run (6-0 to start, I think), before the True Ace Toru Yano ended his undefeated streak, and Moxley would go on to lose the rest of his matches.

I wouldn't say at that point I was fully on the Moxley bandwagon, but he impressed me, just by virtue of being an above average worker. In other words, a lot better than Dean Ambrose ever was. Plus he had a really odd yet compelling charisma, a charisma that was sometimes present in WWE, but never in as pure a form as it was under the Jon Moxley name.

At this point Moxley's creative flair came into fruition with a nice mini-storyline. His second match after beating Jon Moxley was a squash of young boy Shota Umino. These matches would happen from time to time to help establish talent. Moxley took it a step further. He didn't just beat Shota and ride off into the sunset. He recruited Shota as his personal manager/ring boy, which led to some interesting moments. Not a world-changing story, but something a little different that added to his character and to the product as a whole. Young boys never get featured in storylines so it is awesome, and I wouldn't be surprised if Shota Umino returns as an ally of Moxley in the future.

Can't find the match on YouTube, but here's the aftermath.



To cut a long story short, Moxley would only become better and better as he found his footing in NJPW and AEW, to the point where he is one of my favourite wrestlers. An unbelievable turnaround considering he used to be one of my least favourite. He has a fantastic character, an aura of invincibility, and has become pretty damn good in the ring. NJPW really taught him how to strike better, and he no longer does that god awful rope swinging lariat. Plus he's turned his double-arm DDT into a killer.

#39 on my list.

Also if you never checked out his podcasts shortly after leaving WWE (he did one with Jericho and a long one with the Wrestling Observer), you should do so. Mandatory listening. Played a big part in convincing me that hey, maybe this Dean Ambrose guy isn't so bad after all.

#113 The Miz
3 Votes- 66 Points
High Vote: #18
Last Time: #93

#114 Tully Blanchard
3 Votes- 65 Points
High Vote: #17

#115 Madusa/Alundra Blayze
2 Votes- 63 Points
High Vote: #7

#116 John Morrison
3 Votes- 62 Points
High Vote: #8

#117 Jey Uso
2 Votes- 62 Points
High Vote: #15

#118 Jimmy Uso
2 Votes- 62 Points
High Vote: #16

I'm the high vote for Miz!

Still want/need to get caught up on a lot in here it feels like. Stupid work is getting in the way though so far today...

Also, real quick, in defense of Jamie Noble...

I can't recall ever personally hyping him as some in-ring great, and remember being pretty WTF? when learning he'd gone to ROH to become their top champion.

However, I was pretty big into his irritating redneck hillbilly character, enjoyed his in-ring style contrasting the prototypical CW in that he seemed very ground-based, and he did have two cool movez: the tiger bomb and Top 10 submission the Trailer Hitch.

But most important is to recall the context. This wasn't late 90s WCW's CW division. Noble stood out as an easy highlight when the competition was Shannon Moore, Crash Holly, Funaki, Chavo Guerrero, Scotty 2 Hotty at a time where they all had NOTHING going on. Kidman was only interesting because of his SSP, and Hurricane and Tajiri were the only two that did everything Noble did but potentially better as far as both character and in-ring work.

Then Rey debuts and Matt Hardy V1 cuts weight and Noble is more or less bumped outta the main CW picture. However, I'd argue he still remained better than the debuting Ultimo Dragon.

Noble is no GOAT, not even close. But a totally serviceable role player.

Miz - I was and will never be a fan of The Miz. He looks like a dork and acts like a dork. I can't take his act seriously and it was nothing to do with coming from the reality star world. I couldn't care less about that. He has never been good in the ring but he has worked hard to become an average worker. His promos are his bread and butter but I never cared about the content of his promos because I think his character sucks. His runs as a babyface sucked because he has such a hatable look and is a natural heel plus as a baby he had to rely on his in ring work which isn't good enough. He has found his niche as a mid-card heel who can talk and get babyfaces over which is a nice role to have. He just isn't a main event guy. He has been here for so long though so maybe I'm just tired of his act. I have and will always respect his work ethic.

His promo on Danial Bryan after an episode of Smackdown is the best thing he's ever done in WWE and one of the best promos I've ever seen. The feud and matches with Jerry Lawler were pretty good from what I remember and helped give him some credibility.