#114 Tully Blanchard

Tully over time has become the most overlooked member of the Four Horsemen.  He went from the #2 guy in group to being the tag team specialist with Arn, when Barry Windham or Lex Luger were part of the stable.  He had some excellent feuds against Dusty and really against Magnum T.A., his "I Quit" match at Starrcade '85.  He never had that face turn against the Horsemen, that I always hoped for.  I really wanted him to have a run against Flair and challenge for the World Title.  That would never happen.  He and Arn went to the WWF, where they quickly won the belts, but realized they weren't really part of that world.  Then he failed the drug test and his career was pretty much over after that.  These days that's not a big deal, but in late '89 it was the end.  He was made an example of and he kind of wandered around showing up here and there, but he was done for all intents and purposes.  

Apr 13, 2020 18:43:03 GMT @ck said:

#114 Tully Blanchard

Tully over time has become the most overlooked member of the Four Horsemen.  He went from the #2 guy in group to being the tag team specialist with Arn, when Barry Windham or Lex Luger were part of the stable.  He had some excellent feuds against Dusty and really against Magnum T.A., his "I Quit" match at Starrcade '85.  He never had that face turn against the Horsemen, that I always hoped for.  I really wanted him to have a run against Flair and challenge for the World Title.  That would never happen.  He and Arn went to the WWF, where they quickly won the belts, but realized they weren't really part of that world.  Then he failed the drug test and his career was pretty much over after that.  These days that's not a big deal, but in late '89 it was the end.  He was made an example of and he kind of wandered around showing up here and there, but he was done for all intents and purposes.  

There aren't many with a career like him. He was a big, big deal in Mid-Atlantic/JCP, feuding with top names and he pretty much perpetually held a title.

2/15/84: Debuts.
3/28/84 - 3/16/85: 6 weeks later, wins the TV Title and holds it almost a year, including a successful defence against Steamboat at Starrcade, before dropping it to Dusty.
4/28/85 - 7/6/85: 6 weeks later, wins the TV Title back and holds it for over 2 months before dropping it back to Dusty in a steel cage match that main evented the GAB CCTV show over Flair/Nikita for the World Title.
7/21/85 - 11/28/85: 2 weeks later, wins the US Title and holds it for 5 months before losing to Magnum in their famous cage match at Starrcade.
3/4/86 - 8/28/86: A long title lull for him of just over 3 months until he beats Dusty to win the National Title (the former top title from GCW, which had essentially been assimilated into JCP) and held it for almost 6 months before dropping it to Wahoo.
11/27/86 - 8/17/87: 2 months later, he wins the TV Title for a third time (and a third time winning a title from Dusty) and holds it for almost 9 months before losing to Nikita.
9/27/87 - 3/27/88: Just over a month later and he wins the Tag Titles with Arn and they hold them for 6 months before losing to Luger/Windham in a great match at the first Clash.
4/20/88 - 9/10/88: Within a month, they win the belts back and hold them for almost 5 months until they drop them to the MX and left the territory for the WWF.

In his just over 4 and a half years in the company, there was less than a year where he wasn't holding a title - singles or tag.

Arn/Tully as a team had the potential to be a draw for WCW (if they weren't horribly run, so unlikely) and they were foolish not to take him back. I agree with Cornette that the Turner execs could've easily been convinced of the redemption tale of rehabbing a drug addict.

It is quite amazing, considering his prior success, that his career really ended with not being brought back in December 1989. He was not yet 36, younger than Kenny Omega and Braun Strowman are today. He would wrestle 25 matches in the remainder of his career, less than he did in some months during the peak Crockett days.

47. Tully Blanchard (#114)- First one from my list in a while. The very last voter was the high vote for Tully, pushing him over the 50 point plateau.

Tully made my list for being an original Horseman with a knack for getting under people's skin and helping to write the book on tag team wrestling alongside his partner Arn Anderson.

I was actually indifferent to Tully (and Arn & Flair) when I first discovered NWA as a child. (T)He(y) lacked the right sort of pizzazz that would appeal to a kid already slurping down the sports entertainment Kool Aid.

Yet I took to Arn & Tully teaming as The Brainbusters in WWF right away. They were paired with Bobby Heenan and treated as a big deal right from the start. It's also amazing what something so simple as a tag team name will do. I also loved their spiked piledriver finisher. Just the best. It was like a super version of what was already the most dangerous maneuver in wrestling. It was also "illegal" in kayfabe which meant they had to be clever about executing it behind the referee's back. They solidified their Baker Guy status by dethroning Demolition for the tag titles to finally give Heenan some championship gold after years of coming up short. The announcers always made a big deal about the 'Busters "cutting the ring in half." So that's a trope I always associate with Arn & Tully. Like they "invented" it even though they didn't in reality. Anyway, I am the rare person who became a fan of Tully (and Arn) based on their WWF work rather than NWA. 

Tully then failed a drug test, got lowballed (multiple times) by NWA/WCW, and had rubbed a lot of important people throughout wrestling the wrong way during his prime. All these factors contributed to Tully being finished for all intents and purposes at the incredibly young age of 35. All Tully did during the entire decade of the 90s were brief runs in dying day AWA, ECW, and a one off or two for WCW. Sad.

I acquired a bunch of NWA (and ECW) tapes when I first got online in 1998. It is during this stretch where I really became acquainted with the greatness of Tully Blanchard. He was a great shit stirring heel with the innate ability to piss people off. Just a heel's heel. As Strobe mentioned, Tully pretty much always held a secondary title. His "I Quit Match" with Magnum TA was already legendary by the time I first learned of it in the mid 90s. Tully was a staple during The Horsemen's earliest (and best) days. Flair-Arn-Tully. Those guys were the Horsemen. Tully was a member of the first 3 versions (with Ole, Lex, and Windham holding the rotating 4th spot). The Tully-free versions were never quite as good as those incarnations with Blanchard. In addition to Magnum, Tully also had good feuds with Dusty (though the matches kinda sucked), the Rock & Roll Express, and many others. The Arn & Tully vs. Windham & Luger match Strobe mentioned is definitely worth seeking out. Over in McMahonland, I really like Brainbusters/Hart Foundation from Summerslam 1989, while pretty much everybody loves the Brainbusters/Rockers series. 

In the interest of fairness, I do hold the controversial opinion that Tully was basically just a lesser version of Larry Zbyszko. But that is not an insult! Zbyszko ruled! Tully also ruled. Just a little less than Larry Legend.

I was listening to the Jim Cornette Experience from last Friday today at work. They spoke to Kevin Sullivan and got his side for the first time about the entire Benoit/Woman situation...etc. One of the things he said was, he had the book when Arn and Tully were coming back, but Tully got his offer revoked, so one of the original plans was to have Woman be the manager of the Horsemen, which would've been Flair, AA and the Midnight Express of Eaton and Lane. Then Jim Herd stuck his nose in and everything changed.

Apr 14, 2020 0:18:12 GMT @ck said:

I was listening to the Jim Cornette Experience from last Friday today at work. They spoke to Kevin Sullivan and got his side for the first time about the entire Benoit/Woman situation...etc. One of the things he said was, he had the book when Arn and Tully were coming back, but Tully got his offer revoked, so one of the original plans was to have Woman be the manager of the Horsemen, which would've been Flair, AA and the Midnight Express of Eaton and Lane. Then Jim Herd stuck his nose in and everything changed.

I must have heard Corny talk about that on an earlier podcast because I remember it well. Could you imagine? "What is the greatest stable of all time?" would no longer be a common message board topic had that Flair/Arn/Midnights version of the Horsemen come to fruition because nobody could possibly top that.

Which reminds me, shame on me for neglecting to mention the aborted Midnights/Brainbusters feud in my previous post. That feud was shaping up to be an all timer. I remember marking out sooo hard for that during my 1998 NWA tape binge. Like I was giddy as the proverbial schoolgirl. "OMG OMG OMG Horsemen vs. Midnights!!! OMG OMG OMG"- 1998 me  At the time, they were my 2 favorite tag teams of all time. The Quebecers & Rougeaux have since surpassed the Brianbusters (again) while the Midnights still remain my #1.

Anyway, somebody once made a Youtube video chronicling the Midnights/Horsemen build. Lemme see if it's still up....

Success! Pro wrestling perfection incoming. Check it out.

Apr 14, 2020 0:34:02 GMT Baker said:

Apr 14, 2020 0:18:12 GMT @ck said:

I was listening to the Jim Cornette Experience from last Friday today at work. They spoke to Kevin Sullivan and got his side for the first time about the entire Benoit/Woman situation...etc. One of the things he said was, he had the book when Arn and Tully were coming back, but Tully got his offer revoked, so one of the original plans was to have Woman be the manager of the Horsemen, which would've been Flair, AA and the Midnight Express of Eaton and Lane. Then Jim Herd stuck his nose in and everything changed.

I must have heard Corny talk about that on an earlier podcast because I remember it well. Could you imagine? "What is the greatest stable of all time?" would no longer be a common message board topic had that Flair/Arn/Midnights version of the Horsemen come to fruition because nobody could possibly top that.

Which reminds me, shame on me for neglecting to mention the aborted Midnights/Brainbusters feud in my previous post. That feud was shaping up to be an all timer. I remember marking out sooo hard for that during my 1998 NWA tape binge. Like I was giddy as the proverbial schoolgirl. "OMG OMG OMG Horsemen vs. Midnights!!! OMG OMG OMG"- 1998 me  At the time, they were my 2 favorite tag teams of all time. The Quebecers & Rougeaux have since surpassed the Brianbusters (again) while the Midnights still remain my #1.

Anyway, somebody once made a Youtube video chronicling the Midnights/Horsemen build. Lemme see if it's still up....

Success! Pro wrestling perfection incoming. Check it out.

A channel called 4wrestlingfans has nearly the entire run of 1988 WCW episodes on YouTube as well if you want to check that out.

From my list:

I love The Miz. I don't care of he's not THE best wrestler. He works safe, he's good on the mic and I thought his run as IC Champ was one of the best runs in recent years which I realize isn't saying much but it shows he can elevate a title, which not everyone can do. Suck it haters!

#113 The Miz
3 Votes- 66 Points
High Vote: #18
Last Time: #93

Before the Four Horsewomen, before Trish & Lita there was Alundra Blayze/Madusa. Enough said.
#115 Madusa/Alundra Blayze
2 Votes- 63 Points
High Vote: #7

I thought about putting Tully and Arn on my list but they were more my dads faves.
#114 Tully Blanchard
3 Votes- 65 Points
High Vote: #17

EDIT: Also I agree with you on Ambrose/Moxley Baker.  I actually really enjoyed him at first but then he got sloppy and I found less reason to care.  I've watched AEW but I think I'm just missing the boat on the Jon Moxley/Dean Ambrose appreciation.

Beth Phoenix- Another one of the things I paid special attention to in recent times was the Beth/Randy Orton segment on Raw. She still had it as that was one of the best things I've seen on Raw in a long time. She was a true total package for female wrestlers and teaming with Nattie still makes me wish WWE took a women's tag division seriously back then. One advantage with the women is you can be a beast like Beth but still have much more functional athleticism which she had in spades. She was so fun to watch because of that special blend. I also caught a bit of her OVW stuff and I'm right with Baker , she also had the character side of the business down as well. Her Raw appearance made me realize how much of a hole she left in the women's division when she retired.

Big Boss Man- I still overlook this guy sometimes when I think of great big men. He could move, his offense could look brutal, and he had the gift of gab. He was one of the last heels I didn't like in a traditional sense since I actually found his assaults with the nightstick somewhat disturbing. Synchronicity shone upon Boss Man in 1990 though when he turned face and we had a new constable move into town who was his 250lb doppelganger. His son who was a few years younger than me got ribbed often about his dad's second profession, lol. So Boss Man became a cult figure in our town for a couple of years and his exploits got extra special attention.. His feud with Nailz showed how much sympathy he could garner while his Al Snow and Big Show feuds could show he could be a real turd. He would make an underrated list for me.

Harley Race- In real time 1987 I thought he was kind of dorky as the king. He did have good matches with Hogan, that table bump was something you didn't see often in 1988. It actually wasn't until around 1991/92 when I got an education from my dad. It was at this time he was managing Lex Luger and being announced as a former world champion. I had to do a double take then my dad schooled me how he saw him routinely between 1973-78 during his tours of Stampede as the World Champion. He touted his toughness and general bad assery. About 5 years later I dug into the tapes and he lived up to the billing. Only Flair I think has a legit case for being a harder working champion. Harley bled buckets across the globe and did his all to make his opponents look like real contenders. His promos when he put the bounty on Flair are classics and in later yeas was a perfect compliment to both Luger and Vader as a mentor/co-older bad ass.

Madusa- Kind of like Victoria just a real interesting person all around beyond wrestling. For a few years in my dying days of monster truck fandom I followed her career there as well. She had a bad wreck not long after but fortunately she got back in the saddle. In wrestling terms outstanding in all aspects. Formed one of the all time duos with Rick Rude in the Dangerous Alliance and carried both the WWF and WCW women's divisions on her back. Her matches with Bull Nakano and Akira Hokuto in both companies are hidden gems. Dumping the WWF women's title on Nitro was also a huge "fuck yeah!" moment during the MNW. Sadly she got a bit lost in the shuffle in Macho Man's harem, then went down a path to wrestling oblivion in a feud with Ed Ferrera.

Tully Blanchard- There was a no more fitting term for Tully back in the day than the "spoiled brat of wrestling." For sure he was the most punchable member of the Horsemen and the one who drew the true heat. He emphasized his smaller size in the most positive way making fans believe this little twerp should really be a push over. This made his cheating ways that much more effective = dollars at the box office. In tag teams he was even better getting his dastardly shit in while the ref was distracted or have Arn Anderson do his dirty work for him. Their 1987-89 run really was unprecedented ruling the tag divisions in both major companies. Then Tully hit a brick wall being pretty much black balled from wrestling after partaking in something as a part of the culture as the blade back then. Man Jim Herd was a schmuk.

The Miz- What Seth Rollins is for Strobe , The Miz has become for me. How a reality star brat can be taken seriously in wrestling has always been an enigma to me. Even when he tries to draw heat he makes me change the channel and his work in the ring is weak and overly choreographed. This is like if Andy Kaufman continued his career and was in Wrestlemania main events and being the top dog in a company. Miz should be the poster child for failing Baker's brilliant 9-5 test. He should be bagging my groceries.

Then I see iron maiden 's post above me, lol. Hope you like the Beth and Madusa write-ups!

John Morrison- A relatively late cut. Didn't miss my list by much, finishing in the 50s on my big Honorable Mentions list.

Like most, my introduction to Morrison was on the 2nd season of Tough Season. I was not much of a Tough Enough fan. I occasionally watched the 1st season as a novelty + the fact that a local guy (Jason) who was a friend of some friends was one of the contestants. My lasting memory of the barely watched 2nd season was Morrison popping Al Snow with a standing Shooting Star Press. "Pfft. Amazing Red has been doing that for a year!"- This know-it-all asshole.

Morrison then became Bischoff's assistant "Johnny Nitro." This is one of those things I always forget about. Moving on....

I was Day One on MNM. Thought they were great. They had everything I look for in a tag team- team name, matching outfits, ability, swagger, a gimmick. Right up there with WGTT as the best tag team WWE produced during the entire 2000s. They made my list the last time we did a Favorite Tag Team countdown. They were a regular highlight of Smackdown for well over a year, having good matches with a wide variety of opponents nearly every week. And athletic marvel Johnny Nitro was clearly the "Michaels" of the team to Joey's "Jannetty."

I stuck with Nitro when he went singles and remained with him when MNM reformed. But something was missing. He was always more of a 2nd or 3rd tier favorite than a top tier Baker Guy. He lacked that one hook to really put him over the top....

Enter John Morrison. Sometimes it's so simple. A name change, theme change, some catchphrases, and a glorious slo mo entrance was all it took. I was now all in on Morrison.

I actually did not post much on message boards. There was Strictly ECW until ECW folded (or maybe I got banned? lol. Can't remember for sure) in the early 2000s. Then I only made maybe 10-20 message board posts total during the next 7 years. I was more of a quiet lurker in those days. But I finally found a new home on the short-lived 411mania board (and another called OWW) in 2007. 411 LOVED John Morrison. They adopted him as their guy. Their enthusiasm was infectious. So I just went along with it since I was already digging the new and improved John Morrison to begin with. John Morrison was my first "meme wrestler." The 411 posters were always coming up with clever/funny Morrison-related things. 

Enter the already-hated CM Puke and The Great Punk-Morrison Message Board War of 2007. Punk also had his share of supporters on 411. The Morrison & Punk factions mixed like oil & water. It really hit the fan when Punk & Morrison started feuding in earnest on WWECW. While it was hardly WWF vs. WCW from the MNW, Punk vs. Morrison @ 411 was the last great wrestling message board "war" I cared about. Now the way I, an admittedly biased narrator, remember it, the Morrison Maniacs were a fun-loving, free-wheeling, collective who were constantly coming up with clever ways of paying homage to their hero. We outnumbered the dour, humorless, perpetually pissy Punkers (they definitely took after their hero) 2:1. It was a battle of Style vs. Substance. WWE vs. Indie. Glorified Game Show Contestant vs. Indie Geek. Athleticism vs. Grit. A Greek God vs. a homeless, meth head-looking dude. Basically a culture war. And if I had a dime for every time I heard about that stupid 5 star match with Samoa Joe.... I liked nothing more than needling the Punkers. I was honestly a peripheral player in this. I didn't post anywhere near as much there as I do here. But the leading pro-Morrison Senpais noticed me. I felt so proud. 

Anyway, all that rambling was just to set the stage. Punk vs. Morrison on WWECW was something I was actually invested in. It ever so briefly made wrestling real again. For a minute there wins and losses mattered once more. But stupid Punk won the feud and everybody soon found something else to argue about until the powers that be shut the board down for good.

I thought Morrison was on the cusp of greatness. I viewed him (along with MVP and maybe Elijah Burke) as nothing less than the future of WWE. All he needed was one little nudge to put him over the top. The only question left in my mind was "Would he become the Next Shawn Michaels (Hall of Famer) or the Next RVD (Hall of Very Gooder)? My big idea was to put him in a program with Michaels culminating at WM 24. Even in defeat Morrison would be a made man...

Instead they stuck him in a tag team with The Miz. Ugh! Hated The Miz! But they made it work. And association with Morrison even made Miz kinda sorta tolerable. With that being said, I never loved this internet darling team quite as much as most people for a variety of reasons. This post is running long already so I'll maybe cover them more when I write about Miz tomorrow.

By 2009 I was rapidly losing interest in wrestling. Morrison was among the last group of wrestlers I kept tabs on. I rooted from him from afar and would occasionally watch interesting looking Morrison matches on Youtube. And there was none better than Morrison vs. Evan Bourne from WWECW. Morrison/Bourne > Michaels/Taker @ WM. Debate me! 

Morrison eventually left WWE after falling well short of even the "Next RVD" status I had once conservatively predicted for him. He did have poor mic skills and (allegedly) rubbed some important people the wrong way with his attitude. But I still think he deserved better. Great look. Athletic marvel. Cool moves. Excellent bumper. Incredibly creative (he popularized the crazy Royal Rumble elimination tease, for example). Nowhere near as "soft" as his detractors made him out to be. It still kind of blows my mind that The Miz became the Michaels of their duo.

Don't think I saw a single match from his post-WWE Johnny ManyNames run. The ship has honestly sailed for me on Morrison. He isn't really my favorite style of wrestler anymore. With that being said, I'd have been all in on an NWA run as Johnny Powerrr. Because, as I wrote the other day, I am such a shill. But that's never going to happen because he recently re-signed with WWE. Good for him! Hopefully he gets a few nice fat pay days as he settles into middle age.

I was the high placement vote for Madusa.

7. Madusa

I've been watching wrestling for a very long time, longer than most of you, I'm willing to bet.  However that's not to say I've watch as *much* wrestling as all of you. I  started when I was a little kid watching World of Sport on a Saturday morning (yes I am THAT old), back then that's all that was available to me.  Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks, Kendo Nagasaki and a very young Steve Regal, Davey Boy Smith and Dynmite Kid.  Then I kind of stopped because nothing was available to me until the early 90's when my love of wrestling was revived with WCW, as that is all that was on.  I am talking early WCW, 90-93 era, I loved all that.  Surfer Sting, Lex Luger, The Steiner Brothers, Big Van Vader, that era.  Then they brought in this female wrestler, I was blown away, she was doing things in the ring I never thought possible for a female to do.  I followed her all through the Dangerous Alliance (which I loved) but wasn't able to follow to WWF as that wasn't available to me at the time.  I've since gone back and watched some of her WWF stuff and to me, she's a pioneer for a lot of the women wrestlers, I am sure there are a few today inspired by Madusa, I love her. 

#42 John Morrison

Morrison first came to my attention as one half of MNM. Who knew the Tough Enough cast-off who was Bischoff's assistant for a minute could be such an accomplished wrestler. MNM were one of the better tag teams to come along in the 00s and I thought they should have stuck around.

Instead they broke them up and Nitro came to Raw and he struggled. His promos were so bad the WWE would bury him on live television and it wasn't long before he became Jeff Hardy's personal whipping boy.

When they first put the ECW Title on him I was livid. Primarily because it replaced Benoit/Punk which I'd later find out there was a good reason for, but Nitro was a mid-card geek and they just buried the entire show. Supposedly the match really sucked as well, so Morrison would have made a different list.

However, I should have shown more faith in Dusty because he re-invented Morrison. He gave him a new name, a new gimmick, new hair, a new entrance and Morrison grew straight into the character. It wasn't long before he became my favourite wrestler and Punk-Morrison became one of my favouite feuds of the 00s. As Baker highlighted they were two polar opposites personality wise but in the ring they really clicked together that by August/September they were working some great television matches.

Punk emerged victorious and it appeared that was it for Morrison. To make matters worse they tied that MTV reality show sized contestant next to his ankle so it appeared he was going to get futured endeavoured.

EXCEPT they had tremendous chemistry together. The Miz toned his stuff down to be the straight man which allowed Morrison to spout all these great one liners and even though they competed in a tag team division they consisted of the likes of Jimmy Wang Yang, Shannon Moore, Jesse, Festus, Deuce, Domino, Brett and Brian Major, Finlay and Hornswaggle etc. they would do these online pre-Being The Elite skits on them that seemed like real life pot shots.

It was just stuff to pop the boys and it was also the precursor to Long Island Ice Z which would go onto inspire Being The Elite. In the ring they weren't as good as MNM, but they did enough to be the top tag team and right as they were coming into their own, they got split up.

I was convinced that Morrison would be the Shawn Michaels of the group. However after a promising start where he got to work a career match against Rey Mysterio he began to flounder and bad WWE creative really hurt him. Meanwhile The Miz was just recycling a bunch of old Jericho storylines, but it was getting over and The Miz was killing every segment he was in.

Morrison had one last shot at redemption when he had this blowaway match with Sheamus at TLC. It was just the type of performance he needed and he knocked it out of the park for the next couple of months giving The Miz his best match on Raw and following that up with the best spots at the Rumble and Elimination Chamber. He was well on his way and it appeared The Miz would do the favours for him when Morrison completely screwed himself.

Morrison was upset that Trish Stratus was taking up a spot at Wrestlemania and acted like an unprofessional dick on live TV. Word got out and Morrison got buried. That potential run he had with the belt went straight to Cena, he kept falling down the card and by the end the fans were upset he was in Zack Ryder's spot at Survivor Series.

I lost track of him from there but from 2007-09 he was my favourite wrestler and for a brief period in 2010-2011 I was on board. He was one of the main reasons I checked out Lucha Underground and TNA Impact where he didn't disappoint at all. Unfortunately his latest run has been something of a bust - the WWE have done that thing they do with all returning talents and have them revert to their original persona. The Dudleyz went back to the camo and glasses, Hardys danced around to their motocross highlights package #4 theme and EC3 went back to catering.

Dean Ambrose was pretty high on my list but he fluctuated a ton through the years. When Dean is on and the WWE allowed him to be himself and gave him something worthwhile to do than he was money and the most entertaining guy on the roster and my favorite. When they let him float around and gave him no direction - than like a lot of the guys he was just going through the motions and wasn't the most engaging character. Overall I still love Dean and think he's one of the coolest minds in wrestling and would love to see him in most other era's in the WWE with better creative and direction in the company.

OK, let's do some catch-up from the past few pages instead of work...

Didn't know Lionheart had such a huge man-crush on Dolph. No judgments; to each their own. I'm willing to acknowledge Brock isn't the most attractive man on the planet, and yet I still swoon. ANYWAY~

Love Emperor perfectly nailing NXT in a nutshell by concisely hitting on the problem down there: every match is a Dolph Ziggler match. I feel like that's some epic branding that goes hand-in-hand with Baker-man's swing-dance wrestling. You combine those two concepts, and I think you get just about the entirety of pro wrestling that Strobe hates and Seth embodies. Fucking swing-dancing Dolph Ziggler matches. Go pinch a loaf!

Circling back to Jamie Noble before posting my actual thoughts on anyone from the latest batches... PB is wrong. As much as I love both Jamie Noble and Joey Mercury, in no timeline in the multiverse are or were J&J Security better than the REAL Stooges. Patterson & Brisco 4lyfe! Also, love jTjohncenaGOAT's idea of making Noble & Knox "Pitbulls" and then equating Noble to a chihuahua and Knox to a doberman. So why pitbulls? Why not Trailer Park Dogs? Or The Mixed Breed?

Love seeing the Nikki Bella love by others. Feel like I maybe commented on her and generally the Bellas already, but worth stating again... I love the Bellas, Nikki especially, and hate how underrated/underappreciated they are. Speaking of other beloved ladies, I regret not finding a spot for Beth on my Top 50 too. She was Chyna but better in every conceivable way. If only she was as tall as Chyna. That's the only mark against. Oh well, glad she still got enough love to make an overall appearance.

Love Baker-man's vocab word of the year (so far, at least) being picked up and used by Big Pete. Go Team Cromulent! (hey, Baker/@admin/etc. - what do you think of "Team Cromulent" as the official name of our PW Powerrr Party?)

OK, enough catch-up... let's get to wrestlers from my list, or considered/regret forgetting.

= = = = = = =

FROM MY LIST

#124 Jamie Noble
4 Votes- 54 Points
High Vote: #7
(MY VOTE: 50)

OK, so we've all kinda touched on Jamie already, so not much more to say here. I forgot to add: I fucking dug his Pitbulls tag team rehash with Kid Kash. I think people, especially ECW fans, HATED this because it besmirched the legacy of the actual Pitbulls... but fuck it, whatever, who cares? This gave two solid guys something to do, giving them a slightly more interesting edge as heels, to go against the likes of Kendrick & London at a time when WWE had some surprisingly awesome tag team talent that it was totally overlooking.

#113 The Miz
3 Votes- 66 Points
High Vote: #18
Last Time: #93
(MY VOTE: 18)

Fucking LOVE this guy. Arguably as good of a brand ambassador for WWE as John Cena, if not a better one. Honestly, a little surprised they didn't strap the rocket on Miz that they strapped on CM Punk. Would've handled Punk's spot/push so much better than Punk, and WWE would've gotten a bigger/longer lasting ROI since Miz clearly loves the business and specifically company and would've stuck around. Dude is a GOD on the mic. I agree he doesn't work as well as a babyface because his actual face does look so punchable. But I wouldn't push him as a face anyway, because he is so godly as a heel. The best I can come up with right now is he's the 2000s Nick Bockwinkel. Or maybe Larry Z? He definitely relies more on his mouth and personality than his ring work, which BY THE WAY is more than passable.

I'll admit his in-ring work wasn't always there. But he was never utter trash like some of you are making him out to be. And how he's progressed, considering the system he must operate within... it's pretty impressive IMO. And it's so laughable to call his in-ring work weak when I bet you all like his partner John Morrison more, and JoMo is THE DEFINITION of fluffy offense. But I don't want to be shitting on JoMo to make Miz's star shine brighter, because I've always dug JoMo to a degree as well.

Anyway...

Love Miz's story: Dude is clearly a fan of the business. Possibly even more so than the likes of your Daniel Bryans and Dean Ambroses. He emulates his idols on the Real World like a total dork, but his love and passion are clear. He's a part of a sleeper Tough Enough season, and his talent low key starts shining through there. He ends up as like a Josh Matthews backstage announcer type for a spell. He gets bullied and hated on as if he's Joey Styles or the Blue Meanie, yet keeps coming back and keeps trying and keeps working harder to eventually prove himself and earn his spot. He really finds himself after stumbling into a tag team with directionless JoMo, and their early days of the Dirt Sheet was awesome stuff on par with (if not surpassing) Long Island Iced Z.

I would've been content with Miz & JoMo reigning long and prosperous as tag team champs, ascending the ranks together, picking up midcard gold, and maybe eventually only splitting once it was time for them both to contend for the WHC. But then JoMo's fluffy offense kept holding him back in my head, and Miz kept proving himself to be the true talent between the two. I think they get split up by a draft lottery or something, and Miz is more or less off to the races.

His shit on NXT and interactions with early days Daniel Bryan were awesome and arguably fucking MADE Daniel Bryan in so far as they were the Hobbit-style prequel to the YES! movement IMO. He drops his U.S. title to DB to get DB's singles career underway proper, and pivots into his first world title win. He rightfully main events a WrestleMania, and arguably should've main-evented more. Cena is such a natural rival for Miz. Also, Miz would've fit/worked so much better as the leader of Nexus (vs. Punk).

I feel like I could ramble all day on how great Miz is, but I also totally get he's one of those guys people will just never appreciate unless they do. Plus, I should probably actually do some work this morning, so need to curtail this post...

= = = = = = =

CONSIDERED/REGRET FORGETTING:

#121 Big Boss Man
2 Votes- 61 Points
High Vote: #8

#122 Beth Phoenix
2 Votes- 59 Points
High Vote: #16

#115 Madusa/Alundra Blayze
2 Votes- 63 Points
High Vote: #7

Apr 14, 2020 10:57:10 GMT Rogue said:

I've been watching wrestling for a very long time, longer than most of you, I'm willing to bet.  However that's not to say I've watch as *much* wrestling as all of you. I  started when I was a little kid watching World of Sport on a Saturday morning (yes I am THAT old), back then that's all that was available to me.  Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks, Kendo Nagasaki and a very young Steve Regal, Davey Boy Smith and Dynmite Kid.  

Whoa! The likes of John Morrison & Madusa are bo-ring compared to these guys. Have any good Daddy, Haystacks, or Kendo stories? I am a fan of all three.
========================
Madusa- I missed Madusa's first WCW run entirely and Alundra Blayze was barely a blip on my radar. For the longest time I just sort of assumed that was because I didn't wanna watch no wimmin rassle. But at some point during the course of my PW stories I realized that was not necessarily the case. After all, I watched a bit of GLOW, a lot of LPWA, and a ton of WOW. So I did not have an inherent bias against women's wrestling after all. But it wasn't until a fairly recent Strobe post that I learned the truth about why Alundra was such a non-factor to me. Alundra Blayze was barely on tv! She only had like 12 televised matches during her 2 year run as the ace of WWF's Women's Division. And only 2 of them were on Superstars, which was my exclusive source of WWF programming for the vast majority of her WWF run. 

So while I understand Alundra Blayze getting "pioneer points," she was also kind of a smoke & mirrors pioneer. Especially when it comes to the WWE Narrative.

It wasn't until her HEINOUS decision to throw the WWF Women's Championship in the trash on Nitro that I had a strong opinion on Blayze/Madusa. Hated it! Hated her! She was now on my Shit List. "How DARE she DESECRATE the SACRED WWF Women's Championship! GRRRR!"- Fanatical WWF fanboy Baker circa early 1996. The funny thing is I didn't even learn this happened until reading about it in the Apter Mags like a month after it occurred. It's another thing whose importance has been kind of overblown. But you better believe it pissed me off.

I actually do remember her 2nd WCW run. She now had "go away" heat with me and was stuck in a seemingly endless feud with Colonel Parker that I hated. 

I have since revisited her good matches with Bull Nakano (flying sharpshooter!) and even in real time I would have been into the Aja Kong feud just because I happened to catch an episode of a seldom watched WWF program called Action Zone where JR gave Aja a great hype job with Japanese footage to boot! But Blazye left before that feud really heated up. The Bertha Faye feud sucked though. Bertha also had go away heat with me. Another lasting memory of Alundra Blazye is her sweet German Suplex. 
===========================
The Miz- I was anti-Miz from Day One. This glorified game show contestant reeked of WWE's obsession with clinging onto every D List celebrity. He had a punchable face, a stupid haircut, a stupid name, and even stupid attire. I didn't think he'd last a year. Nor do I remember a single thing post-Tough Enough (which also sucked) that he did for his first year or two. Which means he either did nothing of note or was literally a fast forward/change the channel guy. It wasn't until he teamed with Morrison that I started paying attention.

I disliked the Miz/Morrison pairing at first just because I thought it was holding JoMo down. But some of Morrison's coolness rubbed off on Reality Show Boy and he became tolerable by association. They were internet favorites simply because they were among the first to actually use the internet in a productive way. They had a show on WWE.com called The Dirt Sheet which had a big following. I honestly don't remember anything about that either, but I did enjoy it at the time. Miz had also graduated to "not completely terrible" in the ring. I liked that corner clothesline he would do, for example. 

I can't remember if I was around for the Miz/Morrison split. But it was maybe the most obvious Michaels/Jannetty case ever. Morrison would obviously go on to become a superstar while Miz would be lucky to hang around the midcard.

Wrong! The opposite happened. But I wouldn't know because I had completely checked out of wrestling. I didn't watch it. I didn't follow it. I thought I was done with my childhood obsession of watching grown men pretend to fight in their underwear.

Until a radio advert of all things briefly brought me back. WWE Champion The Miz (lol wut?) would be taking on JERRY f'n LAWLER for the title tonight on PPV! Three thoughts instantly ran through my mind....

1. The Miz is WWE Champion?!?!  I imagine this was how Kilgore felt the time he learned Bradshaw of the APA was WWE Champion.
2. The great Jerry Lawler is challenging for the belt TONIGHT on PPV!!!
3. I need to see this!

"Midcard for life" Miz was OBVIOUSLY a weak champion. Maybe Lawler had a shot? So I watched a lousy stream of the show that night. Lawler lost, but it was 'Mania season. So I stuck around another month or so before going away completely again for another 19 months. Oh, the Miz/Lawler match was good, but the Miz/Cena 'Mania match sucked. And I never did buy Miz as WWE Champion. Still don't tbh. 

Anyway, I don't think I've seen a Miz match for at least 5 years. And I have no real desire to do so. But he's put in the work. The guy I didn't think would last a year has now been with WWE longer than Bret Hart(!) and by all accounts has become a valued member of the machine. Plus anybody with a knack for getting under CM Punk's thin skin can't be all bad. 
===========================
Usos- I thought I was going to hate these guys the first time I saw them. The dancing, bright outfits, and stupid "U-SO" chant made me think they were for the kiddies. Basically a modern version of Too Cool. But, like, the bad Too Cool from when the novelty wore off. Plus they had no internet buzz, which made me think they were talentless jobbers. I wouldn't even discover they were Rikishi's sons until a Big Pete post like a year or two after the match in question. But they had a banger with Rollins & Reigns on some 2013 WWE PPV. Great match! And I saw them have a few other good matches....maybe also against The Shield in 6 man tags? Can't remember for sure. But they were a good babyface team.

However, I haven't seen an Usos match in like 5 years, and have never seen them as heels. So....

Dean Baker Grade: Incomplete, but trending towards a passing grade. Also have to admit UT , who usually had solid opinions, calling them a Top 10 tag team in WWE history a while back had me intrigued.

#107 Great Muta
3 Votes- 73 Points
High Vote: #19
Last Time: #59

#108 Natalya Neidhart
2 Votes- 73 Points
High Vote: #10

#109 Sean Waltman/XPac/1-2-3 Kid
3 Votes- 72 Points
High Vote: #10
Last Time: #42

#110 Tommaso Ciampa
4 Votes- 69 Points
High Vote: #22

#111 (tie) "Sensational" Sherri Martel
2 Votes- 68 Points
High Vote: #14

#111 (tie) Shingo Takagi
2 Votes- 68 Points
High Vote: #14

Apr 14, 2020 13:00:39 GMT 🤯 said:

Love Emperor perfectly nailing NXT in a nutshell by concisely hitting on the problem down there: every match is a Dolph Ziggler match. I feel like that's some epic branding that goes hand-in-hand with Baker-man's swing-dance wrestling. You combine those two concepts, and I think you get just about the entirety of pro wrestling that Strobe hates and Seth embodies. Fucking swing-dancing Dolph Ziggler matches. Go pinch a loaf!

Explain Baker's swing-dance wrestling to me.

Apr 14, 2020 20:51:24 GMT Baker said:

Apr 14, 2020 10:57:10 GMT Rogue said:

I've been watching wrestling for a very long time, longer than most of you, I'm willing to bet.  However that's not to say I've watch as *much* wrestling as all of you. I  started when I was a little kid watching World of Sport on a Saturday morning (yes I am THAT old), back then that's all that was available to me.  Big Daddy, Giant Haystacks, Kendo Nagasaki and a very young Steve Regal, Davey Boy Smith and Dynmite Kid.  

Whoa! The likes of John Morrison & Madusa are bo-ring compared to these guys. Have any good Daddy, Haystacks, or Kendo stories? I am a fan of all three.
========================

You know, I don't remember all that much about those three, vague memories more than anything.  I do remember Big Daddy always being the good guy, with Haystacks and Nagasaki the bad guys.  Nagakasaki in particular was one of those guys I loved to hate.  Daddy was kind of slowing down by the time he came to TV but he was still immensely popular and well remembered by a lot of people.  He's still the name people bring up to me when I say I watch wrestling.  

If you want some stories from back then, if you can find it then William Regal's book Walking A Golden Mile has some tales from then, he's not exactly complimentary about Daddy in particular.  Also Bret has some stories of Haystacks, or Loch Ness as I think he was known in Stampede wrestling.  Regal started wrestling in Blackpool on the pier and has some great tales of those years, even though I don't think he remembers them all that fondly.  

From my list:

24. Tommaso Ciampa

19. Nattie Neidhart

I was late to the NXT party, but I think I made up for it by throwing myself fully into it.  I came in around the time DIY were blowing the roof off with their tag matches and chasing the titles.  They were the best team to never win the titles, I think.  If you were to ask me at the time I'd have said Gargano would be the breakout star, but honestly both guys have gone on to great things, arguably Ciampa edges Gargano in the singles stakes.  What brought my attention was that feud with Gargano when he came back from that nasty knee injury with the crutches, that feud ranks very high for me in the best I've ever seen.  Both those guys do their best work with each other, but I sure hope that now that was the last and they go in separate directions.  Ciampa on his own is solid, solid intense promos and you know you'll get a good match from him.  But give him an opponent like Adam Cole, the aforementioned Gargano and even Velveteen Dream and it's kind of magic.  Bloody love Ciampa.

Nattie I think is the most technically proficient wrestling the entire WWE women's division has.  In the ring there is nobody technically better than her - although I'll hear the case for others too.  She's been given some shit storylines in the past and while she never quite made them work, give her her due she worked with what she was given.  I loved her run with Beth, I also wish they'd had a women's tag division then as those two would have dominated it.  She's a worthy successor to the Hart legacy. 

#107 Great Muta
3 Votes- 73 Points

Maybe it's just that I'm older than most, but The Great Muta had such an impact on me watching pro wrestling, it's disturbing that he's this low.  He was literally like nothing I had ever seen before.  He was the first person I ever saw do a Moonsault.  I know now, not such a big deal, but in 1985 it was a Holy Shit moment.  Most Japanese wrestlers that their home federations are big on, go to the USA for an excursion and it's still done to this day.  Not only did Muta go to the Florida territory and become a big deal there as the White Ninja, he won titles.  Then he'd come back from Japan to go to Puerto Rico and Dallas respectively as the Super Black Ninja.  The next year he'd gain his best known persona, The Great Muta and his greatest ally in Gary Hart in NWA/WCW.  That alone brought him instant credibility to the territory with Hart convincingly being his mouthpiece and weaving a great backstory.  Propelling him against the young stars in Luger and Sting, until he graduated to a program with Flair.  His history in Japan runs into the decades and he's been in every big match and program on both sides of the world.  I believe he's the greatest and most successful Japanese wrestler to wrestle in the United States.  He laid the path for all to come after him from the Land of the Rising Sun.  Without Muta's success in the States, you most likely don't get Liger and Ultimo Dragon in the 90's or Tanahashi and Okada more recently.

The Green Mist had been done before him, but he used different colors, which meant different things.   The thing you have to remember is he's a large man that flew around, Muta is no cruiserweight, but he innovated the Shining Wizard, which is an indy fave and the Muta Lock.  Years of doing the Moonsault has wrecked his knees, but he adapted styles and characters depending on health and storylines.  He became a multifaceted wrestler and is an asset up and down the card.  To me he's the most important Japanese import.  

Apr 14, 2020 21:42:06 GMT Emperor said:

Apr 14, 2020 13:00:39 GMT 🤯 said:

Love Emperor perfectly nailing NXT in a nutshell by concisely hitting on the problem down there: every match is a Dolph Ziggler match. I feel like that's some epic branding that goes hand-in-hand with Baker-man's swing-dance wrestling. You combine those two concepts, and I think you get just about the entirety of pro wrestling that Strobe hates and Seth embodies. Fucking swing-dancing Dolph Ziggler matches. Go pinch a loaf!

Explain Baker's swing-dance wrestling to me.

Ospreay vs. Ricochet

Is that about right, Baker?

🤯  I'm a hack. All my best lines are stolen.  Cromulent comes from The Simpsons. I thought Pete actually used it on PW before I did, but a quick search reveals that is not the case. "Swing dance wrestling" comes from some guy who writes a wrestling blog I occasionally read. And now I've taken to stealing Kilgore's "Dean" gimmick.

Emperor Swing dance wrestling is when there are counters on top of counters to the point where it looks like the wrestlers are do-si-doing. You're a Brit so you probably don't know what this square dancing term means either. Just look it up. The term is basically shorthand for overly cooperative b.s. Okada (who I actually kinda like lol) is among the most egregious offenders. Okada and Opponents are forever do-si-doing out of the Rainmaker position. 

@ck I didn't vote for Muta but he's one of the Honorable Mentions I was referring to in this post from the voting stage...

Apr 5, 2020 21:35:12 GMT Baker said:

Not gonna lie. I die a little inside with each list. It seems like every time I get a new ballot one of my picks or Honorable Mentions gets bumped out of the Top 100.

Rogue I've read Bret book and remember his stories about Haystacks. I've also listened to a few Regal shoot interviews where he is mostly complimentary of Big Daddy while also politely admitting he was terrible. Which he objectively was. Big Daddy sucked at the wrestling aspect of wrestling. But he was also more popular than just about anybody to ever do it. Nowadays I have a weird fascination with people who are THAT popular. I've developed a great interest in the crowd control and presentation aspects of wrestling. Give me that over athleticism any day. As a kid I always took the popularity of your Hulk Hogan types for granted. The further we become removed from the wildly popular Hulk Hogan's and Big Daddy's the more I grow to appreciate what they did. Outside of the right short-term storyline, I don't think we will never see that kind of sheer love for a performer again. I always feel embiggened by Big Daddy's noble spirit whenever I watch his matches.
=========================
Let's knock out a few of these easy ones while I'm here.....

Shingo Takagi- Do not recall ever seeing him in action.

Nattie Neidhart- See above. Though I looked up her WWE debut date just to be sure- April 2008. Which means I must have seen a Nattie match before. Probably several. She just left no lasting impression. Weird. Anyway, I do once remember making an offhand comment like "I really hope Nattie strokes an invisible goatee in the style of her father as a taunt." And a PW poster responded by telling me she did! That's awesome. 

Sherri- 0 for 3. Though, again, I must have seen her in action as a youngster. I mean, she wrestled at Survivor Series 87 and Wrestlemania VI! She just left no lasting impression. I am obviously much more familiar with Sherri as a valet. Hated her as a kid! She was the wrong kind of annoying. But the Sherri-loving denizens of PW once forced me to see the error of my ways, and now I have come around on Sherri as a valet. I've seen a few matches where Sherri, as a valet, was the hardest working person in the match. 

33. Great Muta

Very few wrestlers that I've seen upon first watch had the wow factor like Muta did. He combined showmanship with unbelievable athleticism and had a creepy aura about him. Even today I still rate his moonsault as one of the best. What he lacked in height on the move he more than made up for it in impact, something that the move strayed away from in later years. I will always equate him to the Undertaker for his longevity and his ability to adapt his character with the times. He really should have been done in the late 90's with his bad knees but had a 10 year renaissance after the fact with a bad ass Muto look and an even creepier Muta persona. He also went on to be the kingpin of AJPW as well after being the man in New Japan for so long which puts him in rare company. I agree with @ck a true trailblazer when it comes to Japanese having success in America while being a giant in the world of modern puro.

Sherri Martel

I didn't really get to see her in ring career, just a smattering of AWA matches here and there but what I saw was good stuff. She was a natural who's boisterous personality made her transition into a manager easy. She could generate heat with the best of them while also taking incredible bumps when needed. I can't remember how many times I've seen her get mowed over or get bounced to the floor and every time it looked like murder. Her pairing with Ted DiBiase just maybe my favorite as she added some much needed spark to DiBiase's mostly heatless matches. She also adapted well to become a that really cool bad ass type as Harlem Heat's manager in WCW. She really made a conscious effort to tone down her stereotypical "scary Sherri' shtick and like a chameleon fit in seamlessly with Booker T and Stevie Ray. Her endless feud with Colonel Parker though left something to be desired then she faded out of the spotlight. Sadly a few years later she was gone and the wrestling world lost truly one of it's great all around performers.

Sean Waltman

One of the most maligned individuals, I still don't fully understand "X-Pac" heat. In my world he was a needle mover switching the balance further to WCW's side in joining the nWo and adding to WWF's momentum in early '98 joining DX. His promo style could be annoying at times I suppose but he had oodles of charisma, more than most cruiserweights. In his early days was also a fantastic worker, going hold for hold with Bret is still one of my favorite TV matches. Looking back his transformation over the years was quite remarkable, another great example of adapting with the times. Who would have thought the squeaky clean reserved "L-Kid" could have a type of go away heat named after him years later?

Nattie Neidhart

Out of this batch of honorable mention actually the closest to make my top 50. She was the best blend of her dad's brawn and Bret's execution while being quite easy on the eyes. I also admire her tenacity after being stuck in so many crap storylines through the years. She seems to be getting her just due now simply playing an elder statesmen for the women and still putting on outstanding matches. I'm so proud of her to be able to carry on the Hart legacy being a pro's pro.

#20 Shingo Takagi

I first came across Shingo when Raven pimped out a Gargano/Shingo match from DGUSA. That was his MotY and while I didn't feel as strongly about it, I thought Shingo did an excellent job of presenting himself as a somebody in such a limited amount of time. He was one of those names I'd see pop up from time to time in relation to Dragon Gate but for the most part that promotion was out of sight out of mind.

Then in the past year, Takagi came into NJPW and became one of the highlights of the show. He was a breath of fresh air in the Super Junior division as the Low Ki style slugger of the division and it all culminated in a fantastic match against Will Ospreay which was like Dean Malenko vs. Chris Jericho in terms of having two guys who were clearly above the division going at it. Both got called straight into the G-1 which along with Moxley's involvement made it a must see set of shows and Takagi was the stand out in the B Block.

He did kind of drift out of view, but returned in a big way winning my favourite title against Hirooki Goto and I was really looking forward to his NEVER Openweight reign until this pandemic hit.

Definitely a case of recency bias, and I've only seen 1/16 years in Pro Wrestling but I figure I watch more Pro Wrestling now than I ever did before and Takagi would be right at the top as one of my favourite performers.

Only one from my list this last batch was:

#109 Sean Waltman/XPac/1-2-3 Kid
3 Votes- 72 Points
High Vote: #10
Last Time: #42
MY VOTE: #10

No one else considered or forgotten.

Shoot more or less summed up my thoughts on Sean, so QUOTE!

Apr 15, 2020 4:05:40 GMT Shootist said:

Sean Waltman

One of the most maligned individuals, I still don't fully understand "X-Pac" heat. In my world he was a needle mover switching the balance further to WCW's side in joining the nWo and adding to WWF's momentum in early '98 joining DX. His promo style could be annoying at times I suppose but he had oodles of charisma, more than most cruiserweights. In his early days was also a fantastic worker, going hold for hold with Bret is still one of my favorite TV matches. Looking back his transformation over the years was quite remarkable, another great example of adapting with the times. Who would have thought the squeaky clean reserved "L-Kid" could have a type of go away heat named after him years later?

I'll add I was down with 1-2-3 Kid since Day One. No idea why he resonated with me so much, must've just been perfect timing. I was young and perhaps going through a karate phase between Three Ninjas and Karate Kid, so between his name and in-ring style maybe Waltman just seemed like the wrestling incarnation of a white boy karate fighter? His age and the underdog aspect surely didn't hurt either as far as making him feel way more relatable.

Then it just built from there over the years. He starts his run as generally the most exciting match on whatever shows he's on just because of the amount of movement in the ring. He tangles with other favorites from the time to produce some of my favorite matches: vs. Bret on RAW in 1994, vs. Owen at KOTR 1994, vs. Razor on RAWs in 1993, w/ Razor vs. Shawn & Diesel on Action Zone... Even his tag stuff with Marty & Holly. I think I was so in on Kid, he was like proto Brock for me in that he could do no wrong. So by the time he turned heel in late 1995 and partnered with Sid, I wasn't just still with him but thought I was witnessing the early days of my favorite tag team ever. Sadly, that team's run was CRIMINALLY short.

I didn't see any of Kid's run in WCW, but I trust it was both great and also mishandled. Conceptually, I love the idea of Syxx as the nWo evolution of 1-2-3 Kid. Someday I need to go back and revisit this chapter from Waltman's career. Anyway... Syxx pops back up in WWF as X-Pac in 1998, and Shoot nails it in so far as how influential Pac was to DX Army's success. The proprietor of the X-Factor was literally the X factor in making DX still work as a cool and viable faction. HHH is still the right call to come out of that group as the next world champ, but it's CRIMINAL that there were zero IC Title reigns for Pac during this time... ESPECIALLY considering the turds they were hot-potatoing the IC Title to in 1999.

Speaking of 1999, Pac's team with Kane was dumb luck magic. The best Of Mice and Men tag team ever, IMO. They put on some of the best matches for 1999, and it all led to a relatively compelling break up... Which was unfortunately not handled as well as it could've/should've been.

2000 should've been a banner year for X-Pac IMO, with him reinventing himself a bit as an in-ring god mid card gatekeeper against the likes of Kurt, Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Saturn, Malenko, Tazz... But instead he's stuck slumming it with Road Dogg as the last remnants of a DX that had somehow become suddenly irrelevant. Speaking of irrelevant remnants of DX, by late 2000/early 2001, I would've actually been into a rehashed DX vs. DX feud with faces Billy Gunn, Chyna, and Road Dogg & K-Kwik vs. X-Factor.

Speaking of X-Factor, GOAT entrance music. No arguments. :lol:

In all seriousness, I feel like the X-Factor run is really what cemented the X-Pac Heat concept... Whatever the fuck that is. So dumb. Anyway, X-Factor's biggest flaw was having to compete against so many still hot acts like Team Xtreme, the Dudleys, E&C(+R), and the APA. Even more ad hoc teams of Two Man Power Trip, Brothers of Destruction, and Benoit & Jericho were hot enough to make X-Factor feel very "less than" somehow. I think they were only steadily ahead of Kaientai, The Hollys, RTC remnants, and other low card ad hoc teams like Tazz & Raven, etc.

X-Factor IMO should've been more of a cog in the Invasion angle. X-Pac should've been pivot point for the LHW/CW Title stuff, and maybe should've had a mini program with RVD over whose feet were more educated. No reason they couldn't have had matches that rivaled the RVD/Lynn series. And then given X-Pac's history in the past of jumping ship from both companies, he should've been at least a red herring for defection. It might've made Justin Credible's turn mean more... Or better yet could've set up a fun swerve with maybe Albert turning and ideally reuniting T&A! Anyway, enough fantasy booking...

The less said about nWo 2002 the better. Then Waltman disappeara to NWA-TNA (whatever that is) to help be a godfather of the X Division for a spell. I recall limewiring a few matches against AJ Styles and some others that proved to me Waltman could still go, but maybe not as well or fast as this latest crop of new cruisers. But then again, I suppose there was a good chance Waltman could've been messed up on drugs?

Many years later, I love every time I catch Waltman as a guest on podcasts. He's so humble and funny and smart. Great, great mind for the business. Would make an excellent coach/trainer/booker, I bet. Not sure if he's working anywhere right now in such a capacity, but he should be.

Anyway, that's enough of a love letter to Sean for now. Let's try to begrudgingly do some work today...

Poor Muta & Kid. Both took a beating this time around after comfortably being in the Top 100 last time we did this.

Great Muta- Was in the 90s on my big list. I'm just going to C&P an old post with some minor edits.

I'm glad Shootist mentioned Muta as another scary wrestler because he totally was. "A bit off" is a good way of putting it. We love our astronauts here in HoW. Muta was the premier astronaut of this day. Yet Muta went a step beyond other innovators by coming across not as a mere Earth astronaut, but an astronaut from some distant zero gravity planet. His weird herky jerky mannerisms, penchant for flipping when nobody outside of Lanny Poffo was doing that on televised US wrestling, coupled with his entire eerie presentation made him stand out as a truly unique competitor. He popularized an entire arsenal of innovative moves that have been stolen many times over- the moonsault, handspring elbow, Muta Lock, even the Cattle Mutilation, and Shining Wizard much later on. 

His mask matched his facepaint! Freaky! The mist also creeped me out as a kid because I could never figure out the trick behind it. I remember asking my dad about it one time (in relation to Killer Khan, but still) and he either kept kayfabe or (more likely) didn't know himself.

Like fellow scary wrestlers Kamala and early Demolition, I rooted against Muta because he was terrifying. Yet, also like those guys, I grew to have great respect/nostalgia for him in later years, largely because he freaked me out as a youngster. Muta was still mind blowing when I revisited his NWA stint during the Great Tape Binge of 95-96. And even before that I would always get hyped when Muta made one of his sporadic WCW appearances. Always wanted him to come back full time.

Sting vs. Muta in 1989 NWA was the 1998 Rock vs. HHH of its day in that you just KNEW these guys were going to be huge stars real soon. Muta & Funk vs. Sting & Flair in a Thunderdome Cage Match remains the coolest match ever on paper. That's like a fan fic fever dream come to life. Bonus points for Muta putting out a fire with his mist! Only the Great Muta can prevent ring fires.

Muta had a long and successful career in Japan, though I'm pretty sure most of his success came as regular ol' Keiji Mutoh, while The Great Muta gimmick was only reserved for big gimmick/feud ending matches. At least that's how I think it went. Isn't that also how WWE books Finn Balor's Demon gimmick? I think it is at any rate. Anyway, Muta was the #1 or #2 star in New Japan for most of the 90s.

One of my favorite ROH live show experiences is getting to see Muta in person at Final Battle 2003. The match honestly kind of sucked but Muta! Live! I never thought I'd get that opportunity. I saw a lot of live wrestling during that period. Which meant Muta was one of the few wrestlers left on my live act Bucket List. I'll always be grateful to Gabe for giving me the opportunity to see Muta (and the Midnight Express!) live.
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Tommaso Ciampa- Saw him a bunch in mid 2010s ROH. I didn't care for him at first. Thought he was a jabroni. This was even before he did a pretty cringey psycho/loose cannon act. What made this even worse is Michael Elgin was doing pretty much the same gimmick at the same time. Also poorly.

But Ciampa grew on me. At some point I realized most of the promotion's better tv matches involved Ciampa. He had good bouts with Hanson, Silas, at least one of the Jay's, Jacobs, Elgin, and Alexander. Ciampa had an aggressive, hard charging style that was all his own. Really nothing like other 'straight ahead' wrestlers such as Austin or Bradshaw. It's hard to explain. He also had the best knee strikes in a knee strike-heavy promotion and would use a couple different finishers.

The match I remember the most some 5-6 years later is a Fight Without Honor against Cedric Alexander that I saw live. Parts of it were honestly terrible. But other parts were MOTY quality. Including the finish where Ciampa removed the ring apron, revealing a wooden board that had apparently always lived under the apron, much to my surprise. Guess I just never thought about it before. Anyway, Ciampa hit Alexander with a Dreamer or D-Von style super neckbreaker, but straight down, spiking Alexander into the exposed board for the 1-2-3. Great finish!

He also received a nice little farewell tribute after losing to one of the Jay's and leaving the promotion.

Ciampa took a gamble on himself by choosing to walk away from guaranteed ROH money. That gamble paid off. He soon landed a WWE Developmental deal and has been a staple of NXT for years now. Good for him. It's amazing how many wrestlers from cold mid-2010s ROH have since gone on to become fixtures of "cool" promotions like AEW & NXT. Not to mention the main WWE roster and Impact. 

I've only seen one NXT Ciampa match-Ciampa & Gargano against The Revival. It was not as good as American Alpha vs. The Revival.
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*Be back later for Kid.

Ciampa was on my list at #41. He’s about as solid a performer as anyone and has been one of my favourite people to watch over the past couple years, but everything before that was forgettable.

Apr 15, 2020 3:45:32 GMT Baker said:

Swing dance wrestling is when there are counters on top of counters to the point where it looks like the wrestlers are do-si-doing. You're a Brit so you probably don't know what this square dancing term means either. Just look it up. The term is basically shorthand for overly cooperative b.s. Okada (who I actually kinda like lol) is among the most egregious offenders. Okada and Opponents are forever do-si-doing out of the Rainmaker position.

There are plenty of unrealistic things I am happy to put up with in wrestling. But the way Tanahashi, I guess supposedly trying the world's worst left-armed clothesline, jumps over Okada's most minimal duck so he can be caught in the Rainmaker position again could be used as my nooooooopppeee line.

And yes, I count Shawn Michaels' first SCM attempt at Mania XIV where he is clearly not going for the kick at all and him jumping into the Sharpshooter at Mania XII in the same boat. Just try a fucking flat-back bump dropkick and get your feet caught, you cunt. Don't just straight up jump into it, "Mr. Greatest Perfomer". If you are going to have a move countered, at least make it look like you are attempting that move. And yes, the giant nothing off the top rope is maybe the worst of all of these and wrestlers should be docked pay for including it in their matches.

Apr 15, 2020 4:05:40 GMT Shootist said:

I still don't fully understand "X-Pac" heat.

I think it is a term that gets overplayed but after being over, at times very over, as face and heel in WWF/WCW from mid-1993 until mid-2000 if I am being generous (probably more like around Mania time from memory), there seemed to be an apathy towards him.

Him and Road Dogg still wearing the DX colours when really it was dead and even when he had the poor X-Factor stable, he was still out there crotch-chopping away. He seemed like a man still acting like he was in the 97 nWo or 98 DX and people were sick of it. Like an old man not accepting that time had passed. When he came out, it wasn't so much boos as groans - go away heat. Nobody was tuning in or paying money to see him get his ass kicked because he was pissing them off. They just didn't want to see him.

Part of it was that he was still going over younger, more over performers during the Invasion angle - Jeff Hardy, Billy Kidman, Tajiri. In fact, from memory, he was pretty much the only WWF guy to be getting negative reactions during that time.

Oh yeah, any move that is dependent on the opponent moving every time can fuck off as well. Low-Ki's shining wizard ducked into a reverse kick could be a cool spot if the shining wizard was a regular part of his arsenal and he hit it often and then he missed it a few times and learned to have that counter to the counter. When you just use it as a spot in every match, it sucks.

Just like Ibushi's double moonsault. It would work if a moonsault double stomp was a regular move of his (maybe he has used this, but I've never seen it) and this was his counter to his opponent moving. But the opponent always moves and he is always ready to do the second backflip when he lands.

Seth Rollins under-rotating on the Phoenix Splash so he can land on his feet and roll through fits here to an extent. I don't buy that he can see the guy moving and adjust, so it doesn't work as a spot.

Eddie's roll-through on the Frog Splash also. It never looked like he was going for a Frog Splash and adjusted in mid-air, just clearly a forward roll off the top as he knows beforehand his opponent will move.

I need to revive my Wrestling Pet Peeves thread and copy every Strobe post from this thread in there.

Apr 15, 2020 18:41:15 GMT Emperor said:

I need to revive my Wrestling Pet Peeves thread and copy every Strobe post from this thread in there.

Yes, please!