Feel like we as wrestling fans always bandy about the notion of pro wrestling or WWE's Mt. Rushmore, and a finite handful of dudes are always in contention, but I've never seen any lady mentioned. So, fuck it, let's carve the ladies their own mountainous monument. Who's on it?

My initial gut take is Chyna, Sable, The Fabulous Moolah, and... maybe Trish Stratus? Or Miss Elizabeth or Ronda Rousey?

Anyway, maybe some discussion would help clarify thinking here.

And...

GO!

For pro wrestling's Mt. Rushmore, I'd have...

Mildred Burke
Sherri Martel
Manami Toyota
Lita

Stephanie McMahon, Stephanie McMahon, Stephanie McMahon, and Stephanie McMahon

She put WCW out of business
She bought ECW
She one all the women's titles available
She started the women's revolution and evolution
She made Daniel Bryan a star.
She was the reason women got to main event Wrestlemania

I probably need some more time to think about a real one but probably
Trish, Lita, Charlotte, and Tessa

My views on this are you have one name from the past, one name from fairly recent times and Trish/Lita in the middle. One who paved the way for Lita/Trish to do their thing and then another who really took their ball and really ran with it.

As iconic as Chyna was, she was not good for women’s wrestling as a whole. She was presented as completely above the division and no woman was a match for her. Sable and Sunny really really helped usher in the Divas era. Moolah’s legacy has really been exposed too.

So that leaves three names for me to be the name from the past - Mae Young, Sherri Martel and Madusa.

You could pick any of the 4HW as the recent face, it’s a close call between Charlotte Flair and Becky Lynch.

Has Becky done enough to claim such a legacy though? I'd argue Ronda Rousey and the Bellas have at least equal impact and more sustained over a longer period than Becky.

Oct 25, 2020 3:29:38 GMT 🤯 said:

Feel like we as wrestling fans always bandy about the notion of pro wrestling or WWE's Mt. Rushmore, and a finite handful of dudes are always in contention, but I've never seen any lady mentioned. So, fuck it, let's carve the ladies their own mountainous monument. Who's on it?

My initial gut take is Chyna, Sable, The Fabulous Moolah, and... maybe Trish Stratus? Or Miss Elizabeth or Ronda Rousey?

Anyway, maybe some discussion would help clarify thinking here.

And...

GO!

Definitely fits your gimmick. 3 fit the 90s tittie mold and Moolah is just a giant tit in general.

The correct answer of course is Stephanie, The Billion Dollar Princess, Mrs. H and Auora Rose's Mama. She MADE women's wrestling.

Oct 25, 2020 13:36:44 GMT @ness said:

Oct 25, 2020 3:29:38 GMT 🤯 said:

Feel like we as wrestling fans always bandy about the notion of pro wrestling or WWE's Mt. Rushmore, and a finite handful of dudes are always in contention, but I've never seen any lady mentioned. So, fuck it, let's carve the ladies their own mountainous monument. Who's on it?

My initial gut take is Chyna, Sable, The Fabulous Moolah, and... maybe Trish Stratus? Or Miss Elizabeth or Ronda Rousey?

Anyway, maybe some discussion would help clarify thinking here.

And...

GO!

Definitely fits your gimmick. 3 fit the 90s tittie mold and Moolah is just a giant tit in general.

The correct answer of course is Stephanie, The Billion Dollar Princess, Mrs. H and Auora Rose's Mama. She MADE women's wrestling.

No love for Linda!?

Oct 25, 2020 14:02:49 GMT 🤯 said:

Oct 25, 2020 13:36:44 GMT @ness said:

Definitely fits your gimmick. 3 fit the 90s tittie mold and Moolah is just a giant tit in general.

The correct answer of course is Stephanie, The Billion Dollar Princess, Mrs. H and Auora Rose's Mama. She MADE women's wrestling.

No love for Linda!?

Hogan's ex-wife is very underrated in that department.

Oct 25, 2020 3:29:38 GMT 🤯 said:

Feel like we as wrestling fans always bandy about the notion of pro wrestling or WWE's Mt. Rushmore, and a finite handful of dudes are always in contention, but I've never seen any lady mentioned. So, fuck it, let's carve the ladies their own mountainous monument. Who's on it?

My initial gut take is Chyna, Sable, The Fabulous Moolah, and... maybe Trish Stratus? Or Miss Elizabeth or Ronda Rousey?

Anyway, maybe some discussion would help clarify thinking here.

And...

GO!

To legitimately explain/defend my picks...

Chyna seemed like the women's wrestling equivalent of André the Giant. Hence her Ninth Wonder of the World nickname, I guess. She was a total change of pace from every woman wrestler that came before her and even still mostly after. During wrestling's hottest period, she was getting reactions not too far off from Austin, Rock, Foley, etc.

I think Chyna NEEDED to be positioned above the Women's division given the context of her era. Terri, Kat, Debra, etc. were not cutting it. And the girls they had who could've gone (Tori, Ivory, Jacqueline) were so poorly positioned. Tori was Chyna Lite in her X-Pac/Kane stuff and then a non-entity beyond that. Jacqueline was fodder to make Sable look competent. Meanwhile, no real idea what Ivory was doing pre-RTC.

Chyna stepping to the likes of the Corporation, Foley, Austin, etc. gave her such an incredible mystique. Then her winning the IC title from Jarrett and subsequent year of the Mamacita stuff and tangling with Eddie and Val Venis with the IC title still involved cemented her as a legit upper mid card act. By the time she "stepped down" to winning the Women's title, all that cache was poised to really help elevate the title.

Chyna becoming a bit of a diva with her contract demands, as well as the political heat from HHH/Steph, was her undoing. Had it not been for that, Chyna was there to give the rub and pass the torch to the likes of Trish and Lita with a supporting cast of Molly and Jazz.

Chyna's Playboy stuff conveniently fits my tiddie theme, but I think it's more a testament to Chyna's popularity and influence.

I'll be back to defend the others after WrestleMania VI.

Chyna was a woman who wrestled, but was barely involved in women's wrestling. She can be on the Mt. Rushmore of Intergender Wrestling.

Oct 25, 2020 13:32:36 GMT 🤯 said:

Has Becky done enough to claim such a legacy though? I'd argue Ronda Rousey and the Bellas have at least equal impact and more sustained over a longer period than Becky.

Like, what? She won in the main event of WrestleMania. There have been spells where people have argued she is the most over person on the roster. Unless Total Bellas is a FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR bigger deal than I think, then this is a wild claim. 

Fabulous Moolah - I'm not entirely sure about whatever shady dealings she's been accused of, but maintaining her innocence it's really difficult to argue considering she was the face of the division for three decades and helped pioneer the division going back to the 50s.

Trish Stratus - Made women's wrestling an acceptable part of the show with the entire division revolving around her.

Lita - Represented an alternative to Trish and was the most influential woman's wrestling. Didn't receive the same push but to a person she was a major inspiration.

Becky Lynch - The first genuine star who got themselves over with the crowd without needing immaculate to support her. Seized every moment, headlined Wrestlemania and may have arguably the greatest women's match in the WWE on her resume against Sasha Banks.

Oct 25, 2020 16:27:19 GMT Strobe said:

Chyna was a woman who wrestled, but was barely involved in women's wrestling. She can be on the Mt. Rushmore of Intergender Wrestling.

Oct 25, 2020 13:32:36 GMT 🤯 said:

Has Becky done enough to claim such a legacy though? I'd argue Ronda Rousey and the Bellas have at least equal impact and more sustained over a longer period than Becky.

Like, what? She won in the main event of WrestleMania. There have been spells where people have argued she is the most over person on the roster. Unless Total Bellas is a FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR bigger deal than I think, then this is a wild claim. 

I'm just thinking... A Bella was tapped to co-main the first-ever women's only PPV as well as Steph's return to the ring. Meanwhile, there was such little confidence in Becky that Charlotte was shoehorned in. And Becky even on her own never main events a WrestleMania if it's not across the ring from Ronda. So, so much of what Becky has to claim as a legacy, is owing to Ronda as well as some lucky timing and sharp social media posting.

Oct 25, 2020 17:02:20 GMT Big Pete said:

Fabulous Moolah - I'm not entirely sure about whatever shady dealings she's been accused of, but maintaining her innocence it's really difficult to argue considering she was the face of the division for three decades and helped pioneer the division going back to the 50s.

Trish Stratus - Made women's wrestling an acceptable part of the show with the entire division revolving around her.

Lita - Represented an alternative to Trish and was the most influential woman's wrestling. Didn't receive the same push but to a person she was a major inspiration.

Becky Lynch - The first genuine star who got themselves over with the crowd without needing immaculate to support her. Seized every moment, headlined Wrestlemania and may have arguably the greatest women's match in the WWE on her resume against Sasha Banks.

Mildred Burke is probably #1 on women's wrestling's Mt. Rushmore. Zero chance Lita is over her.

Oct 25, 2020 18:24:00 GMT 🤯 said:

I'm just thinking... A Bella was tapped to co-main the first-ever women's only PPV as well as Steph's return to the ring. Meanwhile, there was such little confidence in Becky that Charlotte was shoehorned in. And Becky even on her own never main events a WrestleMania if it's not across the ring from Ronda. So, so much of what Becky has to claim as a legacy, is owing to Ronda as well as some lucky timing and sharp social media posting.

She won a women's Royal Rumble match, built around her getting into the match, and then won the main event of Mania. If you want to make arguments for Charlotte or Ronda over her, I would listen. The Bellas? Nope.

Oct 25, 2020 18:45:26 GMT Strobe said:

Oct 25, 2020 17:02:20 GMT Big Pete said:

Fabulous Moolah - I'm not entirely sure about whatever shady dealings she's been accused of, but maintaining her innocence it's really difficult to argue considering she was the face of the division for three decades and helped pioneer the division going back to the 50s.

Trish Stratus - Made women's wrestling an acceptable part of the show with the entire division revolving around her.

Lita - Represented an alternative to Trish and was the most influential woman's wrestling. Didn't receive the same push but to a person she was a major inspiration.

Becky Lynch - The first genuine star who got themselves over with the crowd without needing immaculate to support her. Seized every moment, headlined Wrestlemania and may have arguably the greatest women's match in the WWE on her resume against Sasha Banks.

Mildred Burke is probably #1 on women's wrestling's Mt. Rushmore. Zero chance Lita is over her.

Oct 25, 2020 18:24:00 GMT 🤯 said:

I'm just thinking... A Bella was tapped to co-main the first-ever women's only PPV as well as Steph's return to the ring. Meanwhile, there was such little confidence in Becky that Charlotte was shoehorned in. And Becky even on her own never main events a WrestleMania if it's not across the ring from Ronda. So, so much of what Becky has to claim as a legacy, is owing to Ronda as well as some lucky timing and sharp social media posting.

She won a women's Royal Rumble match, built around her getting into the match, and then won the main event of Mania. If you want to make arguments for Charlotte or Ronda over her, I would listen. The Bellas? Nope.

Nikki Bella's elbows are greater than anything Becky has ever done.

Isn't Total Bellas genuinely big though? As in, it brings more viewers than the WWE? I feel like I read that somewhere, might be wrong though.

Even if that's true, I doubt that's grounds to qualify for a wrestling Mount Rushmore. Sure, Total Bellas wouldn't have happened if not for WWE, but it is more or less a separate entity. That would be like qualifying The Rock based only on his Hollywood success.

Big Pete's post would be my top 4, hard to argue against any of those. Even if Moolah was an awful human being, I can't imagine the four presidents on the real Mount Rushmore were all saints either.

Oct 25, 2020 17:02:20 GMT Big Pete said:

Fabulous Moolah - I'm not entirely sure about whatever shady dealings she's been accused of, but maintaining her innocence it's really difficult to argue considering she was the face of the division for three decades and helped pioneer the division going back to the 50s.

Trish Stratus - Made women's wrestling an acceptable part of the show with the entire division revolving around her.

Lita - Represented an alternative to Trish and was the most influential woman's wrestling. Didn't receive the same push but to a person she was a major inspiration.

Becky Lynch - The first genuine star who got themselves over with the crowd without needing immaculate to support her. Seized every moment, headlined Wrestlemania and may have arguably the greatest women's match in the WWE on her resume against Sasha Banks.

This was the Mt. Rushmore I was leaning towards for the same reasons as Pete if we're talking just US wrestling.  

On another day I could see myself substituting Sable for Lita. People like to forget or downplay just how over Sable was. Folks can poo poo her lack of ability all they want, but WWF brought back the Women's Division just to showcase Sable. It pretty much immediately became a bigger deal than it had ever been when it Alundra Blayze's playground. WWF also hired a whole lot of women in their quest to find the next Sable. For my first decade as a wrestling fan WWF usually had like 3 women at best on the entire roster. That number boomed during and after Sable's run (though Sunny also deserves some credit here).

I'm not even a Sable fan, but I think she was probably the most popular women in company history until Becky's big push. Furthermore, she was one of the most popular people in all of wrestling during its most popular period of the last 30 years. That has to count for something.

Big Pete has nailed it.

Any talk of the Bella's at this level is an insult to the art form.

The Bella hate is absurd. Either ignorant or intentionally obtuse.

Anyway, upon further reflection, I'm willing to alter my Rushmore to:

- Mildred Burke: The OG

- The Fabulous Moolah: Bridging the gap from the OG through the Rock 'N' Wrestling Connection and even into the Attitude Era, plus her harem of trainees

- Sable: The Stone Cold Steve Austin of women's wrestling, responsible for the WWE's women's division being resuscitated, responsible for the Playboy connection and Divas era (covering Trish and the Bellas)

- Ronda Rousey: The Brock Lesnar of women's wrestling, responsible for legitimizing it to such a degree that WWE had a women-only PPV, introduced the women's Royal Rumble, and first to main-event a WrestleMania.

There is no Bella hate, just that they don't really have a place among the four most important women ever.

🤯's suggestions are strong. Replace Moolah (she is on the primary Mt. Rushmore) for someone like Charlotte and that's a good secondary Mt. Rushmore.

Oct 25, 2020 18:46:17 GMT 🤯 said:

Nikki Bella's elbows are greater than anything Becky has ever done.

Obviously, but Nikkisawa only gets her so far.

Sable is an interesting one and I'd say if it depends on how we are viewing this. If it is a Mt. Rushmore of Women's Wrestling, then no. She was incredibly over, but her contribution in-ring is too small. If it is Mt. Rushmore of Women in Wrestling, that's a different story. In that case, she would be a contender, but I would have Miss Elizabeth over her. Liz was such a big part of the Mania V and first SummerSlam main events and her wedding to Savage even main evented SummerSlam 1991.

Oct 25, 2020 22:34:32 GMT Strobe said:

Oct 25, 2020 18:46:17 GMT 🤯 said:

Nikki Bella's elbows are greater than anything Becky has ever done.

Obviously, but Nikkisawa only gets her so far.

Sable is an interesting one and I'd say if it depends on how we are viewing this. If it is a Mt. Rushmore of Women's Wrestling, then no. She was incredibly over, but her contribution in-ring is too small. If it is Mt. Rushmore of Women in Wrestling, that's a different story. In that case, she would be a contender, but I would have Miss Elizabeth over her. Liz was such a big part of the Mania V and first SummerSlam main events and her wedding to Savage even main evented SummerSlam 1991.

What if we did expand this to wrestling as in wrestling overall? What do the four faces carved in stone look like then to you?

Locally, Billy Wolfe was training aspiring women professional wrestlers. At first, Wolfe did not want to train Burke and instructed a male wrestler to body slam her, so she would stop asking Wolfe to train her. Burke, however, performed a body slam on the man instead, which resulted in Wolfe agreeing to train her.

Reading up on Burke's Wiki and came upon this.

Better start etching her in stone.

Emperor no, I hate Nikki Bella.

Oct 27, 2020 7:45:56 GMT NATH45 said:

Emperor no, I hate Nikki Bella.

Why man? I get hate can often be irrational, but sometimes folks have their reasons. I'm curious if there's a reason behind your Nikki hate, or if it's just an irrational hate (like my former hate for Dean Ambrose).

Can you replace Moolah though? Sure she was a miserable excuse for a human being, but you can't deny her contributions even though most of it was by her own hands (aka keeping everyone else down).

I adore Chyna, but she wasn't a good wrestler female or otherwise. She was a great character and she was the epitome of 'strong woman who could do anything' at that time which helped paved the way for the women's revolution.

I also adore The Bellas. As I've stated numerous times before, they could have rested on 'being pretty', being valets or arm candy, but they didn't they actually put in the work and decided to earn their success. They might not have been THE best in the ring but no one could deny they were good. You can say you didn't enjoy their in ring style, but the WWE is more than just in-ring and The Bellas excelled in their characters as well as consistently stepped up their game. At Brie's heyday she was kicking ass and taking names and Nikki, despite breaking her neck kept working and learning and adapting to be able to fight on the high level she had been competing at before her injury. Could they go to toe to toe with some of the talent we are seeing now, maybe not, but to discount them and their influence on mainstream women's wrestling is a mistake.

If Moolah never held the title hostage as long as she did, would she still be a legit serious consideration or would she more easily replaced on the line up? Granted her longevity and the mere fact she was a women’s wrestler and a champion way back when it wasn’t normal, does mean she should be considered.

But take away the long title reign gained through shady dealings and not on her wrestling ability, along with the WWE hype machine in her later years with Mae, and does she really stand out that much amongst the lady wrestlers from around her era?

Oct 27, 2020 16:25:49 GMT kingoftheworld said:

If Moolah never held the title hostage as long as she did, would she still be a legit serious consideration or would she more easily replaced on the line up? Granted her longevity and the mere fact she was a women’s wrestler and a champion way back when it wasn’t normal, does mean she should be considered.

But take away the long title reign gained through shady dealings and not on her wrestling ability, along with the WWE hype machine in her later years with Mae, and does she really stand out that much amongst the lady wrestlers from around her era?

If we arbitrarily take away the WWE hype machine and his lengthiest title reign, is Hulk Hogan still on the men's wrestling Mt. Rushmore?

Absolutely yes, it’s not even a comparison.

Now if you were to say...take away Undertakers longevity and Streak, then yeah I’d say it would be harder to justify Taker on the Rushmore.

And yes before we get into it, I understand most wrestlers have those defining attributes and achievements that makes them legendary but I honestly do not believe Moolah’s shady title reign and old age qualify her to be on Rushmore when there’s so many more genuinely deserving women who had a greater impact.

Oct 27, 2020 11:55:19 GMT 🤯 said:

Oct 27, 2020 7:45:56 GMT NATH45 said:

Emperor no, I hate Nikki Bella.

Why man? I get hate can often be irrational, but sometimes folks have their reasons. I'm curious if there's a reason behind your Nikki hate, or if it's just an irrational hate (like my former hate for Dean Ambrose).

I've heard all the arguments 'for' Nikki Bella in the past. That she has had an incredible upswing from where she was at day 1 and where she finished off. About how much credibility she earned making an independent appearance and how much respect people have for her, when heaven forbid she actually trained like a wrestler in OVW. Wow! And if she had NXT back in the day, she'd be Charlotte Flair... nope.

Like politics, if you tell me something absolutely ridiculous, I'll likely swing my opinion in the opposite direction. This idea that the Bellas lead the women's revolution or where some sort of pioneers or even crack the top 25 GOAT, is an absolute joke.

Moolah's legacy is marginalising the agency of women wrestlers; promoting them as a collective rather than individuals, stealing their money, and continuing to propagate the idea that their presence in the business was to be eye candy for the fans and groupies for the boys - the ramifications of those things have been felt ever since, and are exactly what the current generation are starting to be overcome.