It should also be noted how Mollah really held back the progression of women's wrestling in the US with her sub-par training. Many wrestlers trained by her have noted that they didn't improve until they trained in Japan.

Speaking of Japan I think you'd have to consider putting the Crush Gals or Jaguar Yokota, on any women's Mt. Rushmore. The Crush Gals for their extreme levels of popularity, and Jaguar for her work and also being the trainer of some of the greatest wrestlers of all time.

You guys have sold me on excluding Moolah. Guess she's like the Andrew Jackson of women's wrestling.

So who are we starting to settle on then?

Am I totally out of line if I say having both Trish AND Lita feels a little redundant?

Were any of these allegations about Moolah ever substantiated?

Oct 27, 2020 22:52:07 GMT dex02 said:

It should also be noted how Mollah really held back the progression of women's wrestling in the US with her sub-par training. Many wrestlers trained by her have noted that they didn't improve until they trained in Japan.

Speaking of Japan I think you'd have to consider putting the Crush Gals or Jaguar Yokota, on any women's Mt. Rushmore. The Crush Gals for their extreme levels of popularity, and Jaguar for her work and also being the trainer of some of the greatest wrestlers of all time.

Any consideration for Manami Toyota on that front?  For most of her career, she was considered by many as the best wrestler in the industry, regardless of gender.

Oct 28, 2020 1:30:20 GMT Big Pete said:

Were any of these allegations about Moolah ever substantiated?

While there have been wrestlers who defended her, there's more than enough testimony for me to believe it. Plenty of links in this summary by Dave Bixenspan.

Unless you're taking the NATH45 approach that no one in the history of the universe has ever done anything bad to another person unless you were literally there to see it for yourself, it seems pretty cut and dry. 

Oct 28, 2020 1:43:47 GMT @admin said:

Oct 28, 2020 1:30:20 GMT Big Pete said:

Were any of these allegations about Moolah ever substantiated?

While there have been wrestlers who defended her, there's more than enough testimony for me to believe it. Plenty of links in this summary by Dave Bixenspan.

Unless you're taking the NATH45 approach that no one in the history of the universe has ever done anything bad to another person unless you were literally there to see it for yourself, it seems pretty cut and dry. 

Ta, there was obviously enough smoke for the WWE to go in a different direction. However I thought more would have come out of it after the Bix article and there would be a bigger outcry. It seemed like after she was removed from the pre-show Rumble, the fans got their pound of flesh without getting to the bottom of it.

Am I totally out of line if I say having both Trish AND Lita feels a little redundant?

Ordinarily I would agree but I feel they represent two different sides of the coin. Trish was the ultimate diva who was stunning but could also get it done in the ring and as a personality. Lita was the anti-diva who appealed to the tomboys out there and the alternative crowd who didn't necessarily want to be blonde bombshells. She obviously had the looks, but she was more of a wrestler's wrestler coming up through the ranks instead of being scouted as a fitness model like Trish was.

It depends really on how seriously you take your Rushmores. Personally I would have Hogan and Flair on a Rushmore even though they came up at the same time, or even a Austin and Rock.

This could all change in the next 5-10 years when the new batch of women's wrestlers come through who were inspired by all those TakeOver shows to get in the business. As it stands, the current generation all seem to place Trish and Lita on that pedastal above every woman's wrestler that came before and since.

Oct 28, 2020 2:11:36 GMT Big Pete said:

Ta, there was obviously enough smoke for the WWE to go in a different direction. However I thought more would have come out of it after the Bix article and there would be a bigger outcry. It seemed like after she was removed from the pre-show Rumble, the fans got their pound of flesh without getting to the bottom of it.

I agree, but we've seen there's only so much fans can do, and WWE is good at sweeping things under the rug and just moving on. 

The Sweet Georgia Brown article was published in 2006, and I remember reading about it around that time because of the internet circles I was plugged into, but she made at least three more appearances on WWE TV after it was published - and the article didn't reach a broader audience until they tried to give her another tribute with the Wrestlemania battle royal.

It's similar to the Ashley Massaro Tribute to the Troops saga - again a delayed reaction to available information, something causing the story to go viral and resulting in big outrage on the internet, no one takes any sort of fall because WWE are only accountable to themselves, and they just wait for everyone to forget about it and the allegations to be consigned to the past.

Oct 28, 2020 2:11:36 GMT Big Pete said:

Ordinarily I would agree but I feel they represent two different sides of the coin. Trish was the ultimate diva who was stunning but could also get it done in the ring and as a personality. Lita was the anti-diva who appealed to the tomboys out there and the alternative crowd who didn't necessarily want to be blonde bombshells. She obviously had the looks, but she was more of a wrestler's wrestler coming up through the ranks instead of being scouted as a fitness model like Trish was.

It depends really on how seriously you take your Rushmores. Personally I would have Hogan and Flair on a Rushmore even though they came up at the same time, or even a Austin and Rock.



This could all change in the next 5-10 years when the new batch of women's wrestlers come through who were inspired by all those TakeOver shows to get in the business. As it stands, the current generation all seem to place Trish and Lita on that pedastal above every woman's wrestler that came before and since.

This hits the nail on the head perfectly. Basically every woman in the business today cites either Trish or Lita as an inspiration (depending on their personality and background) which shows the huge legacy they left from their careers. But to include both of them on a Rushmore means that you are placing their era as 50% of the history of wrestling, and only leaving two spots for everyone else. 

Obviously they were trailblazers, and the fact that they led the recovery from probably the all time lowest period for women's wrestling should absolutely be factored in - but you also have to consider their careers weren't that long and that their match resumes/big time moments have been eclipsed by the current generation.

The latter point is why I think Trish's match with Charlotte was an absolutely huge moment for her legacy and reputation, because she proved that despite her age and ring rust that she was absolutely capable of putting on one of those long form bangers that have become commonplace in recent years. Her pure talent level vs the Horsewomen could have been debated before hand, but now we know for certain that it was solely because of a lack of opportunities and the structure in place during her heyday.

Oct 28, 2020 1:43:47 GMT @admin said:

Oct 28, 2020 1:30:20 GMT Big Pete said:

Were any of these allegations about Moolah ever substantiated?

While there have been wrestlers who defended her, there's more than enough testimony for me to believe it. Plenty of links in this summary by Dave Bixenspan.

Unless you're taking the NATH45 approach that no one in the history of the universe has ever done anything bad to another person unless you were literally there to see it for yourself, it seems pretty cut and dry. 

If you want to detour into #speakingout territory again.. sure, why not. Here's the thing about allegations.. you have to accept the idea, the alleged may actually be innocent. There's a small chance they are. It's why the police investigate incidents and why we have a court system.

WWE bowed to pressure around the “Fabulous Moolah Memorial Battle Royal” - that should tell you enough. Or is that them brushing it under the carpet and hoping it goes away? To me it’s an admission there’s truth in it.

The book Sisterhood of the Squared Circle by Pat Laprade and Dan Murphy is a really good read. It becomes very clear that Women’s Wrestling was much bigger until Moolah came in, and she made it all about her and her girls and minimal workrate, setting it back decades. Even without the more sinister allegations, it feels pretty cut and dry that she held women’s wrestling back for her own gain, so her featuring on a Mount Rushmore would be pretty scandalous to me.

I’m leaning towards: Mildred Burke, Manama Toyota, Trish Stratus, Becky Lynch.

Obviously mine had a huge western bias, and there’s certainly an argument for Trish being replaced by another Japanese Wrestler, but I know much more about US wrestling than anything else. Burke represents the early trailblazers and she was a legitimate big time draw, Toyota may be the best ever so represents that era of women’s wrestling in Japan being the best wrestling the world. I was more Lita than Trish back in the day, but I really think you can only have one of them and Trish going from eye candy to genuine draw and good in-ring talent is almost like the personification of women’s wrestling in the WWE. And then while Rousey may have been the catalyst, Becky Lynch is the first woman to be genuinely the face of the company. Like, when you see WWE advertising it’s always Roman or Cena or Becky Lynch - she became the marquee and no other woman has done that.