Nov 10, 2020 4:30:00 GMT Lionheart said:

Cody vs Darby Allin

I did enjoy this match, but it's tough not to be mad at Cody. Yeah, he gave Darby the win, but his entire ring persona relying on him having to look superficially strong and only losing because he gave Darby too much time to recover still made it come off like he was protecting his status and pissed me off. Darby won, but the message still read as "not as good as Cody if they were both wrestling 100%". Why do that to your new champion instead of making him seem like a badass? He kind of just came off as lucky.

It's not like this helps Cody either. I do not understand a gimmick where he repeatedly fucks up but still wins almost every match.

I didn't read it like that at all. Cody was wrestling 100%, he just couldn't put Darby away. Then he let him back into the match, and paid the price. Rollups are a valid form of victory like anything else. It's a wrestling hold. It's not luck.

Nov 10, 2020 4:30:00 GMT Lionheart said:

Jon Moxley vs Eddie Kingston

Very good match. I didn't even mind it being obvious that Moxley would win because it was so entertaining. Like most Moxley matches, not much to say here though. He seems to have that bizarre effect where you enjoy watching his matches a lot but there's not much to talk about with them.

Nov 10, 2020 16:32:03 GMT Big Pete said:

Jon Moxley vs. Eddie Kingston

That seems to be the story of Moxley's reign. I've never been super impressed with his performances, he always just gets by through the skin of his teeth. Still it does give us Moxley/Omega which is one rematch the fans want to see. Once again, Khan has done a pretty good job of promoting rematches.

Agreed with these takes on Moxley. He's had a solid run, strongly booked. However all of his title defenses have been good but unmemorable. None I would rate above four stars except maybe the Darby Allin defense, but even that's very borderline.

Nov 8, 2020 2:13:26 GMT Michinokudriver said:

Wait didn't the entire Nightmare Family come out with Cody?

DDP, Pharaoh, and Red Velvet weren't there

Nov 10, 2020 21:45:23 GMT X-zero said:

Nov 8, 2020 2:13:26 GMT Michinokudriver said:

Wait didn't the entire Nightmare Family come out with Cody?

DDP, Pharaoh, and Red Velvet weren't there

I literally cannot tell if this is a joke or if those are all actual members of the Nightmare Family now.

Nov 10, 2020 20:16:13 GMT Emperor said:

Nov 10, 2020 4:30:00 GMT Lionheart said:

Cody vs Darby Allin

I did enjoy this match, but it's tough not to be mad at Cody. Yeah, he gave Darby the win, but his entire ring persona relying on him having to look superficially strong and only losing because he gave Darby too much time to recover still made it come off like he was protecting his status and pissed me off. Darby won, but the message still read as "not as good as Cody if they were both wrestling 100%". Why do that to your new champion instead of making him seem like a badass? He kind of just came off as lucky.

It's not like this helps Cody either. I do not understand a gimmick where he repeatedly fucks up but still wins almost every match.

I didn't read it like that at all. Cody was wrestling 100%, he just couldn't put Darby away. Then he let him back into the match, and paid the price. Rollups are a valid form of victory like anything else. It's a wrestling hold. It's not luck.

He "let him get back into the match" AKA fucked up by not punishing him and basically giving him a ridiculous amount of recovery time, partially because it looked like he pitied him and didn't want to beat him up too much. He noticeably paused quite a bit and then Darby got a quick rollup in the end. And even that was after Cody got distracted trying to beat him with a belt, which also made no sense because Cody is a face that seems totally calm but apparently was raging so hard inside that he couldn't control himself to almost beat him with a belt...all the while worrying about beating him up too bad?

Like all Cody matches, it was a total mess and made no sense.

I don't know what world you live in, but rollups are historically used for matches where you don't want the result to be that definitive. Not always, but often. That doesn't matter though. He could have won with any move. Cody was fucking around for half the match before that and still dominating. It being a quick rollup was just the cherry on top to make it seem even less convincing of a win. I don't think anyone watched that and thought Darby was a stronger or better competitor than Cody after. It just took Cody many fuckups and a distraction to lose.

It came off like "Darby narrowly edged out a win after being given a ton of extra chances". It didn't come off like the ideal "holy shit Darby actually can compete on Cody's level" which it should have been going for at all. Except apparently it somehow did give you that impression, which just perplexes me even more.

Nov 10, 2020 22:11:01 GMT Lionheart said:

Nov 10, 2020 21:45:23 GMT X-zero said:

DDP, Pharaoh, and Red Velvet weren't there

I literally cannot tell if this is a joke or if those are all actual members of the Nightmare Family now.

DDP hasn't been around lately but he is/was in it.

Pharoah, Cody's Dog, is in it. And if members had rank in his family I am sure he would be one of the highest behind Brandi and Dustin.

Red Velvet I think I may have jump the gun on. I thought I read she was in it but they were saying they assume she will be in it soon. And since QT got his at the time girlfriend in the Nightmare Family. Brandi probably has invite privileges as well. I assume it will be made official once Tay Conti joins Dark Order.

And speaking of Dark Order you do know Sinbad is a member of that stable.

Nov 10, 2020 22:36:49 GMT X-zero said:

Nov 10, 2020 22:11:01 GMT Lionheart said:

I literally cannot tell if this is a joke or if those are all actual members of the Nightmare Family now.

DDP hasn't been around lately but he is/was in it.

Pharoah, Cody's Dog, is in it. And if members had rank in his family I am sure he would be one of the highest behind Brandi and Dustin.

Red Velvet I think I may have jump the gun on. I thought I read she was in it but they were saying they assume she will be in it soon. And since QT got his at the time girlfriend in the Nightmare Family. Brandi probably has invite privileges as well. I assume it will be made official once Tay Conti joins Dark Order.

And speaking of Dark Order you do know Sinbad is a member of that stable.

I don't even know who Sinbad is. Is that another dog?

Nov 10, 2020 23:04:52 GMT Lionheart said:

Nov 10, 2020 22:36:49 GMT X-zero said:

DDP hasn't been around lately but he is/was in it.

Pharoah, Cody's Dog, is in it. And if members had rank in his family I am sure he would be one of the highest behind Brandi and Dustin.

Red Velvet I think I may have jump the gun on. I thought I read she was in it but they were saying they assume she will be in it soon. And since QT got his at the time girlfriend in the Nightmare Family. Brandi probably has invite privileges as well. I assume it will be made official once Tay Conti joins Dark Order.

And speaking of Dark Order you do know Sinbad is a member of that stable.

I don't even know who Sinbad is. Is that another dog?

Now I wondering if you are joking because I thought everybody knew who Sinbad was? Maybe he isn't as famous as I thought.

I know a Sinbad outside of the pro-wrestling world, but not a Sinbad in the pro-wrestling world.

Nov 11, 2020 0:04:16 GMT Emperor said:

I know a Sinbad outside of the pro-wrestling world, but not a Sinbad in the pro-wrestling world.

It is the one you are thinking of then. The comedian who has more bad movies to his name then some well known wrestlers.

Nov 10, 2020 22:21:52 GMT Lionheart said:

He "let him get back into the match" AKA fucked up by not punishing him and basically giving him a ridiculous amount of recovery time, partially because it looked like he pitied him and didn't want to beat him up too much.

He noticeably paused quite a bit and then Darby got a quick rollup in the end. And even that was after Cody got distracted trying to beat him with a belt, which also made no sense because Cody is a face that seems totally calm but apparently was raging so hard inside that he couldn't control himself to almost beat him with a belt...all the while worrying about beating him up too bad?

I don't know why you think Cody is a face. He hasn't acted like a babyface for a long time. Only during his feud with Brodie Lee, and that's only because Lee was the bigger heel. He cheated in a lot of his recent matches, he's arrogant and frequently talks his opponents down on the microphone. His character has an enormous ego.

With that in mind, Cody's actions during the Darby match make a lot more sense. Arrogant heels taunt a lot, and they get frustrated when they can't put the babyface away. Doesn't mean the babyface is shit. Part of the psychology of the match is Cody underestimating Darby, so that further explains his behaviour.

Nov 10, 2020 22:21:52 GMT Lionheart said:

I don't know what world you live in, but rollups are historically used for matches where you don't want the result to be that definitive. Not always, but often. That doesn't matter though. He could have won with any move. Cody was fucking around for half the match before that and still dominating. It being a quick rollup was just the cherry on top to make it seem even less convincing of a win. I don't think anyone watched that and thought Darby was a stronger or better competitor than Cody after. It just took Cody many fuckups and a distraction to lose.

I agree, Darby did not come out looking like the stronger or better competitor. However, he did come out looking like the tougher and more resourceful competitor who had more heart and wanted the victory more than his opponent. Classic underdog babyface.

The finish played into that. It wasn't quite a desperation rollup either. There was a sequence of rollups, both men getting two counts, but Darby was able to hold Cody down for the three count on one of those rollups. The fact that he had enough gas in the tank to best Cody in that sequence shows his grit and his skill.

I didn't think Cody needed to dominate the match quite as much as he did, but for me that didn't take away from the overall story they were going for.

Nov 11, 2020 0:14:19 GMT X-zero said:

Nov 11, 2020 0:04:16 GMT Emperor said:

I know a Sinbad outside of the pro-wrestling world, but not a Sinbad in the pro-wrestling world.

It is the one you are thinking of then. The comedian who has more bad movies to his name then some well known wrestlers.

Sinbad's a comedian? No, I was thinking of Sinbad the sailor.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinbad_the_Sailor

I would mark out hard if a Sinbad the Sailor gimmick character showed up in the Dark Order.

Nov 11, 2020 0:17:19 GMT Emperor said:

Nov 11, 2020 0:14:19 GMT X-zero said:

It is the one you are thinking of then. The comedian who has more bad movies to his name then some well known wrestlers.

Sinbad's a comedian? No, I was thinking of Sinbad the sailor.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinbad_the_Sailor

But he is one of the best bad Christmas films in Jingle All the Way.

Went back and watched Kingston/Moxley again after not trudging my way through a 3 1/2 hour show. It was better than I remember, Kingston's chops are right up there with Pentagon as some of the best in the business. Chops are some of my biggest pet peeves in Pro Wrestling, but when they're done right they do look great. There was some semblence of Pro Wrestling early on and I do think the match transitioned well.

Tense back and forth in the ring --> bulldog choke on the outside into a bite from Kingston --> Kingston upping the ante by introducing chairs --> Moxley counters with a barb-wire bat --> Kingston turns the tables and dominates the majority of the fight with barb wire, thumb tacks, rubbing alcohol before trying to win with a bulldog choke --> Moxley counters, wraps his arm in barb wire and executes his own bulldog choke for the win.

I think the heat just took me out of the match. There was a ton of down time and I thought Kingston was too busy hot dogging and doing stupid stuff like grabbing the thumbtacks only to ball them into his own fist and then punch Moxley.

So yeah, I think the action really dragged but Kingston does have some worthwhile attributes that prevent him from being this total reserve grade tier performer.

Nov 11, 2020 0:16:41 GMT Emperor said:

I don't know why you think Cody is a face. He hasn't acted like a babyface for a long time. Only during his feud with Brodie Lee, and that's only because Lee was the bigger heel. He cheated in a lot of his recent matches, he's arrogant and frequently talks his opponents down on the microphone. His character has an enormous ego.

With that in mind, Cody's actions during the Darby match make a lot more sense. Arrogant heels taunt a lot, and they get frustrated when they can't put the babyface away. Doesn't mean the babyface is shit. Part of the psychology of the match is Cody underestimating Darby, so that further explains his behaviour.

I don't know why you think Cody is a heel. Every promo he gives is genuine, all the fans love him, and he literally cries on the mic because he is so passionate for the business and cannot hold back the emotion. He hugged every single opponent after defeating them and retaining the title except for Brodie. He was / possibly still is a member of The Elite, a face stable. He is currently a member of the Nightmare Family, a face stable. He is a typical antihero face, same as the Bucks. Faces also superkick commentators in the face for no reason in AEW because they think they are DX.

With that in mind, Cody clearly makes no sense whatsoever. This is one of my main gripes. Why do you have a face that is winning matches by cheating? I don't know, but they do. And it's weird that he arrogantly beats the shit out of other faces and barely loses after making mistakes. I don't get it. Even if he were a heel, it would make less sense. Why would you want everyone to think your heels are stronger than your faces? The way you described it made it sound like heel tactics, while completely ignoring the overall nature of the situation. Him dominating the matches is very unlike a heel. There are exceptions like Brock Lesnar, but Cody clearly does not have an image like that. I am actually struggling to think of a single other heel that comes off as stronger than their face opponents. Even Lance Archer was made to look on even ground as Juice in their matches despite being a monster.

I just think it is incompetence. Cody's character has no direction because they don't know what they are doing.

Cody is the babyface much in the same way Okada, Tanahashi and Bret were babyfaces. The majority of the time, they stand for the right things but they are full of themselves and when they find themselves against another babyface they tend to behave like a heel to get the underdog over. Granted those aforementioned names did it much better than Cody and knew how to reel it in to keep the fans on their side after the match was over.

Right now it appears he's got his hands full with Team Taz and Shaq.

I don't think Cody is hitting it quite of the park, but they know what they're doing.

Nov 14, 2020 5:33:30 GMT Lionheart said:

I don't know why you think Cody is a heel. Every promo he gives is genuine, all the fans love him, and he literally cries on the mic because he is so passionate for the business and cannot hold back the emotion. He hugged every single opponent after defeating them and retaining the title except for Brodie.

False bravado. He's playing an act. Did you think Kenny Omega was a genuine babyface when he hugged Sonny Kiss after beating him in five seconds and pinning him with that arrogant smirk on his face? Or was he just trying to mask the fact that he was acting like a dick? Cody is the same in my view.

Nov 14, 2020 5:33:30 GMT Lionheart said:

Why do you have a face that is winning matches by cheating? I don't know, but they do. And it's weird that he arrogantly beats the shit out of other faces and barely loses after making mistakes. I don't get it.

Because he's a heel.

Nov 14, 2020 5:33:30 GMT Lionheart said:

Even if he were a heel, it would make less sense. Why would you want everyone to think your heels are stronger than your faces? The way you described it made it sound like heel tactics, while completely ignoring the overall nature of the situation. Him dominating the matches is very unlike a heel.

Darby Allin is a small and slight guy. Cody may as well be a monster heel in comparison. He's a lot bigger and a lot stronger. It's logical for him to dominate Darby Allin.

I appreciate it's not as black and white as I'm making it out to be. Cody isn't a pure heel in the same way MJF is, but in my opinion he's now a lot more heel than face. They are trying to go for a shades of grey booking. Cody is this nuanced character who wants to present himself as the heroic champion wrestler, but his natural personality is to be a dick, and that comes out in the heat of battle, especially when he's close to losing as he was against Orange Cassidy and Darby. He can't beat them clean, as the hero champion would, so he cheats. Then he comes out the next week with the microphone acting like he's the hero. False bravado.

I think that's what they are going for and it is an interesting character on paper. However, as you guys have said, the execution leaves a lot to be desired, which is why we're all confused and having this discussion.

Do you think we're possible heading to The Elite coming back together as a super-heel authority faction? Like The Bucks, Kenny, and Cody are all getting douchier and douchier and becoming more and more heel like. It could work if they all snapped, reunited and took over things and stopped trying to make people like them.

Nov 14, 2020 14:39:28 GMT PB said:

Do you think we're possible heading to The Elite coming back together as a super-heel authority faction? Like The Bucks, Kenny, and Cody are all getting douchier and douchier and becoming more and more heel like. It could work if they all snapped, reunited and took over things and stopped trying to make people like them.

I definitely think this is where it's heading. Hangman will be the mega face that tries to take them down a peg.

I can't wait for Hangman to transform into John Cena and take them all on in a 1v4 match and win.

Nov 14, 2020 12:42:10 GMT Emperor said:

Nov 14, 2020 5:33:30 GMT Lionheart said:

I don't know why you think Cody is a heel. Every promo he gives is genuine, all the fans love him, and he literally cries on the mic because he is so passionate for the business and cannot hold back the emotion. He hugged every single opponent after defeating them and retaining the title except for Brodie.

False bravado. He's playing an act. Did you think Kenny Omega was a genuine babyface when he hugged Sonny Kiss after beating him in five seconds and pinning him with that arrogant smirk on his face? Or was he just trying to mask the fact that he was acting like a dick? Cody is the same in my view.

That is quite the stretch of an assumption. Nothing about Cody's promos has hinted that he is not genuine, unlike with Omega. I don't think you can blur the lines between the events happening with him and Cody. They aren't even really in the same stable anymore. The hard fact is that Cody is the HEAD of a face stable, which is incredibly telling and makes his facery a bit obvious. Even if they are potentially headed towards heel turns (Omega alone is probably way more likely than just Cody, if it does even happen at all), that has not happened yet...so he is currently a face. And this would be a silly setup for a heel turn in any case because it requires a very long stretch of limbo where they are not really building heat for Cody who everyone still currently loves. I feel like you're just trying to justify this in the only way that makes even a shred of sense because it just doesn't make any sense. If you want to keep on thinking a heel turn is coming, that is fine. You may be right. But I would bet against it.

Nov 14, 2020 12:42:10 GMT Emperor said:

Nov 14, 2020 5:33:30 GMT Lionheart said:

Even if he were a heel, it would make less sense. Why would you want everyone to think your heels are stronger than your faces? The way you described it made it sound like heel tactics, while completely ignoring the overall nature of the situation. Him dominating the matches is very unlike a heel.

Darby Allin is a small and slight guy. Cody may as well be a monster heel in comparison. He's a lot bigger and a lot stronger. It's logical for him to dominate Darby Allin.

I appreciate it's not as black and white as I'm making it out to be. Cody isn't a pure heel in the same way MJF is, but in my opinion he's now a lot more heel than face. They are trying to go for a shades of grey booking. Cody is this nuanced character who wants to present himself as the heroic champion wrestler, but his natural personality is to be a dick, and that comes out in the heat of battle, especially when he's close to losing as he was against Orange Cassidy and Darby. He can't beat them clean, as the hero champion would, so he cheats. Then he comes out the next week with the microphone acting like he's the hero. False bravado.

I think that's what they are going for and it is an interesting character on paper. However, as you guys have said, the execution leaves a lot to be desired, which is why we're all confused and having this discussion.

Like I said, even monsters rarely dominate major faces. Not even Lance Archer against much smaller opponents. And Cody acts the same way against all the faces he has fought - not just Darby, so it still doesn't make sense in any case.

What you are saying about Cody's personality makes sense for a heel buildup, but is in direct contradiction to other behaviors and events which are very prominent. I assume this is what you mean by the execution being lacking, but to me it just makes it seem like what you're saying is even less likely to be true at all. It's definitely a major guess.

The "shades of gray" seems more like "shades of stupid" to me, especially when coupled with the fact that they've blatantly mishandled other situations like saying Eddie never had a title shot and that he now hates Fenix for no reason and also never helped his team who he just gave a title shot to weeks ago...

It is not tough to detect a pattern of incompetence at play here and that is the far more likely scenario. Plus think about Cody himself. Considering how poorly Cody handles the pacing in his matches, do you truly trust he actually has such an elaborate grand plan in mind for this heel turn? Never mind that AEW has gone for the quick win / payoff overall as a company in virtually every single situation so far. The cards just don't add up to this being a slow burn turn.

Nonsense is the normality of this world. No need to try so hard to make sense of the chaos.

You keep stating that Cody is a face because of how he's positioned disregarding his clearly heelish actions. You have a black and white view of things. Head of face stable = face, can't possibly be anything else, despite the fact he rarely interacts with the rest of his stable besides Arn and sometimes Brandi. You talk about a heel turn like there's going to be a singular moment when Cody becomes pure good to pure evil just like that, that cartoony shit that happens in WWE. As I said he's been displaying more and more heelish tendencies for a while now. Maybe he never goes full heel. Maybe he sees the error of his ways and returns to more of a babyface. Shades of grey, that's what AEW is going for.

Anyway, this is getting silly now. We can keep trading words forever without getting anywhere. I will keep stating that Cody is a heel, or at least more heel than a face. You will keep saying he's a face. The rest is just us going around in circles. I'm done.

Nov 17, 2020 17:53:19 GMT Lionheart said:

Never mind that AEW has gone for the quick win / payoff overall as a company in virtually every single situation so far. The cards just don't add up to this being a slow burn turn.

There's enough long-term storylines in AEW to oppose this claim. Just off the top of my head...

The Young Bucks vs FTR took several months to setup after FTR joined the company, instead of blowing the match right away.
Kenny Omega and Hangman Page have been experiencing long term character growths which have yet to reach their conclusion.
MJF and Wardlow are slowly simmering up tension.

I thought we were making progress and your points were interesting, but different strokes.

A few months is exactly the maximum a storyline lasts in AEW. MJF and Wardlow / OmegaMan is more just them existing than a storyline. Cody has been not making sense for a year. Maybe you’re right and they purposely want him to be in a grey area. Maybe this is all just Cody existing in this grey area. Either way, it is incompetence because it sucks.