When I took a break from watching WWE, I would listen to Dave & Bryan via Youtube. Their perspective got old quickly. Dave is solely based on work rate. I enjoy work rate based wrestling, however, it has to combine with all other aspects of the art form. I don't agree with Eric Bischoff & Bruce Pritchard on a lot of things but when it comes to disliking Meltzer, while the reasons are different, I align with them. I remember Dave disliking a Briscoe brothers match. He thought an early Mark vs Jay match was good but over-rated. Cool but then he made it sound like just because HE & HIS friends didn't love the match that nobody else can rate a match too high. Fuck that guy. I love New Japan, but Meltzer rates seemingly every match through the New Japan telescope.

Dave is a mark. It is that simple. As a fan his ratings are just how much he likes things at the very moment he sees them. If he is hyped, it is 6 stars. Work rate does not matter at all. Look at the list of matches he rated five stars and it has less to do with the matches or the style but who he personally likes that determines his ratings.

I mean look at Blood Gen vs Do Fixer. Five star match. The other 50 or so matches this group had against each other adding in a few other members not worth mentioning.  The difference in this match over the others?  Punk on commentary...

Hell look at the G1 Climax event in 2018. He gave that one event the same amount of 5 star ratings than the entire 2000-2010 decade. The era of peak US indy work was not as good as that single event, including the rest of the Do Fixer / Blood Generation feud.

He reached his low point with others talking down on WWE for not doing a tribute to Brodie Lee while they were literally uploading the damn video...

I've penned countless threads and posts on Meltzer.

I'll take a different approach this time. A year or so ago, I predicted AEW would struggle. The reason for it was, The Elite surrounded themselves with yes-men and well-wishes who told them they were awesome. A big part of which are the likes of Dave Meltzer who sees the world of wrestling through a unique lense that favoured the workrate of one, Kenny Omega and those alike. This is bad as it sets an unrealistic measure for workrate at the expense of character and humanly possible storytelling.

AEW and independents in turn book matches to suffice Meltzer and his rating system, again bad. High levels of athleticism replaces psychology and so forth and have a generation of workers who can backflip with the best of them, but can't sustain any long-term popularity (and that's the real key) or marketability. See one, Kenny Omega who has struggled until now outside the NJPW system.


That, and the nob is being worked by The Bucks for clicks and stars.. you think they lovingly called it the Meltzer Driver?

I just always go by the point if he has never giving a Kurt Angle match a 5* or beyond he isn't a critic I should care about. And he gives alot of Kenny throwaway dynamite matches more then 4*.

Yup. Shane McMahon vs Kurt Angle was only a 4 star match...

Also there is this:

The Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels Hell in the Cell I - 5 stars.

The Undertaker vs Triple H - End of an era match - 4.75.

The Undertaker vs CM Punk - 4.5

The Undertaker vs Mankind HitC - 4.5

The Undertaker vs Stone Cold Steve Austin vs the Rock vs Triple H vs Rikishi vs Kurt Angle 4.5

Rock vs Mankind I Quit 3.75 

Um what mate?

We need a Kurtdown in History. Best matches... okay Taker NWO, Benoit Cage, Austin Summerslam, Rey Summerslam, Shawn Mania, that 3 stages of hell (each match was a separate iron man match) classic he had with Daniel Bryan before signing to TNA, etc.

Jan 1, 2021 21:26:32 GMT @ness said:

We need a Kurtdown in History. Best matches... okay Taker NWO, Benoit Cage, Austin Summerslam, Rey Summerslam, Shawn Mania, that 3 stages of hell (each match was a separate iron man match) classic he had with Daniel Bryan before signing to TNA, etc.

vs. Desmond Wolfe
vs. Samoa Joe
vs. AJ Styles
vs. Eddie
vs. Lesnar (when Lesnar did more then 3 moves)

Meltzer likes what he likes and dislikes what he dislikes, he's allowed to do that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Dude's considered a journalist of wrestling because he knows people, and he's seen a lot of matches and IIRC has actually been in the ring but that doesn't mean his word is law, not his fault people take him super seriously. He didn't make anyone form an entire promotion catering to him.

Big Money Meltz gives this thread negative 5 stars.

Who else watches every match from every promotion in history, reports on it all, and gives all the matches a rating? His dedication is superhuman. Quite frankly I don't know how he puts up with WWE alone, never mind all the other pro-wrestling out there, most of which isn't very good. No wonder he's starting to lose his mind.

Sure, we can poke fun at Meltzer and how he broke his own scale, but I wonder what the wrestling world would be like without a Meltzer rating system? Better or worse? Guess it wouldn't make much of a difference either way - not like the movie industry would be any different without [insert high profile film critic here], but he's made a huge contribution to pro-wrestling. Good for him.

Shame he's started to tarnish his legacy.

Jan 2, 2021 1:29:50 GMT Emperor said:

Who else watches every match from every promotion in history, reports on it all, and gives all the matches a rating? His dedication is superhuman. Quite frankly I don't know how he puts up with WWE alone, never mind all the other pro-wrestling out there, most of which isn't very good. No wonder he's starting to lose his mind.

Sure, we can poke fun at Meltzer and how he broke his own scale, but I wonder what the wrestling world would be like without a Meltzer rating system? Better or worse? Guess it wouldn't make much of a difference either way - not like the movie industry would be any different without [insert high profile film critic here], but he's made a huge contribution to pro-wrestling. Good for him.

Shame he's started to tarnish his legacy.

And MMA as well.

Honestly I dunno how he does it. Like I couldn't imagine just following the US promotions and still caring. I guess do what you love and it's never work, but man I grow bored of stuff so easily I have no clue how he's doing it decades later.

My only takeaway from this thread is nath saying he predicted aew wouldnt succeed.

Jan 2, 2021 10:25:22 GMT nazzer said:

My only takeaway from this thread is nath saying he predicted aew wouldnt succeed.

Would struggle.

And.. they have.

Saying a brand new promotion will struggle isn't exactly Nostradamus levels of foresight.

Jan 2, 2021 11:04:11 GMT Emperor said:

Saying a brand new promotion will struggle isn't exactly Nostradamus levels of foresight.

I think I said, they'd surround themselves with friends and family members and well-wishers and what not, telling them how awesome they are. Big Dave included, and because they'll never receive any tough criticism from within, they'll never improve. Or at least be on the end of some constructive feedback. Case in point, The Young Bucks dropped their socials for a while once they copped criticism. They weren't used to it. 

Jan 2, 2021 11:01:10 GMT NATH45 said:

Jan 2, 2021 10:25:22 GMT nazzer said:

My only takeaway from this thread is nath saying he predicted aew wouldnt succeed.

Would struggle.

And.. they have.

From all reports they have exceeded viewership expectations. Theyve received a new improved contract, and they will be getting a second show in 2021.

You have a weird definition of struggling

Jan 2, 2021 11:15:07 GMT NATH45 said:

Jan 2, 2021 11:04:11 GMT Emperor said:

Saying a brand new promotion will struggle isn't exactly Nostradamus levels of foresight.

I think I said, they'd surround themselves with friends and family members and well-wishers and what not, telling them how awesome they are. Big Dave included, and because they'll never receive any tough criticism from within, they'll never improve. Or at least be on the end of some constructive feedback. Case in point, The Young Bucks dropped their socials for a while once they copped criticism. They weren't used to it. 

This always confuses me. Can we please reserve Big Dave for the one and only true Big Dave: The Animal, Batista?

Jan 2, 2021 13:35:18 GMT nazzer said:

Jan 2, 2021 11:01:10 GMT NATH45 said:

Would struggle.

And.. they have.

From all reports they have exceeded viewership expectations. Theyve received a new improved contract, and they will be getting a second show in 2021.

You have a weird definition of struggling

Why do they want to over-extend?! It's a problem for WWE IMO quality-wise. Why don't they just double down and focus on making one really premium quality show?

I never put much into Meltzer's ratings on matches, because those are just his opinions, and we all like different things. I won't discredit his reputation as a wrestling historian or journalist because I don't agree with his match ratings, as he earned the reputation for those by being good at them.

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe Da Meltz himself doesn't put much stock into his ratings system. I mean he cares to an extent, of course, but not nearly as much as the IWC does (whether positive or negative).

Like, maybe the Bucks went to him and said 'if we name a move after you, will you bump up our matches a star every time we do it? 4 stars, 5 stars, 7 stars, 22 stars?'

And Meltzer said f it, whatever, sounds funny and who really cares that much about my rankings anyway? Doesn't affect anyone's paycheck or job security, it's just one guy's opinion.

Granted, I don't follow or listen to the guy and this is complete speculation. But my hunch is that if he did take himself that seriously and had a stick up his posterior he'd never be okay with the Bucks shamelessly pandering to him with the Meltzer Driver. YOU CANNOT COMPROMISE HIS INTEGRITY AS THE ARBITER OF WRESTLING MATCHES

Jan 2, 2021 13:35:18 GMT nazzer said:

Jan 2, 2021 11:01:10 GMT NATH45 said:

Would struggle.

And.. they have.

From all reports they have exceeded viewership expectations. Theyve received a new improved contract, and they will be getting a second show in 2021.

You have a weird definition of struggling

It's an awful product.

Refer to the problems with AEW thread.

Jan 2, 2021 13:43:10 GMT 🤯 said:

Jan 2, 2021 11:15:07 GMT NATH45 said:

I think I said, they'd surround themselves with friends and family members and well-wishers and what not, telling them how awesome they are. Big Dave included, and because they'll never receive any tough criticism from within, they'll never improve. Or at least be on the end of some constructive feedback. Case in point, The Young Bucks dropped their socials for a while once they copped criticism. They weren't used to it. 

This always confuses me. Can we please reserve Big Dave for the one and only true Big Dave: The Animal, Batista?

Jan 2, 2021 13:35:18 GMT nazzer said:

From all reports they have exceeded viewership expectations. Theyve received a new improved contract, and they will be getting a second show in 2021.

You have a weird definition of struggling

Why do they want to over-extend?! It's a problem for WWE IMO quality-wise. Why don't they just double down and focus on making one really premium quality show?

I wanna believe that's on TNT, so they're not gonna turn down money. Or they simply haven't learned from the past...

Jan 2, 2021 13:43:10 GMT 🤯 said:

Jan 2, 2021 11:15:07 GMT NATH45 said:

I think I said, they'd surround themselves with friends and family members and well-wishers and what not, telling them how awesome they are. Big Dave included, and because they'll never receive any tough criticism from within, they'll never improve. Or at least be on the end of some constructive feedback. Case in point, The Young Bucks dropped their socials for a while once they copped criticism. They weren't used to it. 

This always confuses me. Can we please reserve Big Dave for the one and only true Big Dave: The Animal, Batista?

Jan 2, 2021 13:35:18 GMT nazzer said:

From all reports they have exceeded viewership expectations. Theyve received a new improved contract, and they will be getting a second show in 2021.

You have a weird definition of struggling

Why do they want to over-extend?! It's a problem for WWE IMO quality-wise. Why don't they just double down and focus on making one really premium quality show?

that would make way too much sense 

Meltzer as a historian in wrestling is great, Meltzer as a columnist and writer is lacking and here is why............his definition of a quality champion is workrate first and foremost. Some champions don't necessarily focus on that due to durability, and trying to get the audience involved, that doesn't make them a lesser champ. I remember he took shots on Eli Drake's Impact title run for example because of the lack of great matches but why kill yourself every single time out there as champ rather than preserve yourself and not go balls to the wall? Meltzer doesn't give the spectacle or fan reaction much of his time which is where I feel he is wrong as entertainment is a big part of wrestling, always has been, always will be.

He doesn't see much in champs like Miz but just because they aren't doing Tiger Drivers or lariats doesn't mean they aren't worthy of his fame and given how influential he was, especially pre-internet, I totally see how wrestlers loathed him. He in a way did influence wrestlers notoriety to the fans, and thus impacted their merchandise sales, their draw, their star power overall and I think the resentment guys like Ryback have on the man is valid(Saying the world is a better place when they die is going too far though). Meltzer just as he can make people's careers with his columns and star ratings can break people's too and I think if he doesn't stick in his opinion, he would be excellent. His reporting has always been good, say what you want on his sources. It's his opinions that become dangerous IMHO.

Jan 2, 2021 13:35:18 GMT nazzer said:

Jan 2, 2021 11:01:10 GMT NATH45 said:

Would struggle.

And.. they have.

From all reports they have exceeded viewership expectations. Theyve received a new improved contract, and they will be getting a second show in 2021.

You have a weird definition of struggling

Bar was set low because it's a brand new promotion ran by people who have never done it before. They got a test run as a company and passed with flying colors because the Elite had a dedicated fanbase from the indies that they earned. They also get the Anti-WWE smark portion of the audience who want to watch anything besides WWE to stick it to Vince. 

I also imagine AEW doesn't cost much to produce but I could be wrong on this so a network like TNT will gladly take a 2nd show over a failed series anyday of the week, especially one that runs 365 days a week.

That's one of my pet peeves with Dave as well, Ed.

I don't mind him having an opinion and find myself agreeing with him very often but when he starts comparing wrestlers from now to the past and using his own rating systems it's so unbelievably childish. I also find his reviews really lackluster. He's great at providing context but any insight into the actual work is just lacking beyond 'they hit a lot of moves' or 'they did this one spot which was a reference to y'know a spot from their previous match'. Maybe it's because he has some experience in the ring, but I find Alvarez far more insightful in that regard even though he has more annoying quirks than Dave. He'll actually recite spots, explain why they were great or bad in detail and will often recite something from his wrestling training to back it up. Of course there are times where he contradicts himself depending on a wrestler. Sometimes he'll try some mental gymnastics to explain it, but it usually comes down to 'I like this guy/girl and so I'm going along with it.'

I find Pro Wrestling criticism pretty silly and that's coming from somebody who took the Match Review from Wrestling Forum and brought it to PW. Except I'm glad I did because Baker, Strobe, Emperor, Kilgore, Icon, Wife etc. point out details that actually add to the enjoyment of the match. I'd much rather the Rob Naylor perspective of just being an unabashed fan and pointing out quirks and spots than constantly throwing stars at the Young Bucks like it even means anything.

I don't think it makes Dave a tool. There's only been a few times where Dave has come across like that and it's when he's reported on things like the legitimacy of Roman's cancer scare or women's wrestlers undergoing plastic surgery. It's pretty tame compared to Cornette who will just cut these heel promos out of nowhere on people like Becky Lynch. I like Jim, but you really have to accept that he's not a saint and he will go too far now and then.

Jan 3, 2021 3:28:05 GMT Big Pete said:

I don't think it makes Dave a tool. There's only been a few times where Dave has come across like that and it's when he's reported on things like the legitimacy of Roman's cancer scare or women's wrestlers undergoing plastic surgery. It's pretty tame compared to Cornette who will just cut these heel promos out of nowhere on people like Becky Lynch. I like Jim, but you really have to accept that he's not a saint and he will go too far now and then.

The Peyton Royce shit was pretty bad, forgot all about that. Shocked Shawn Spears didn't consider decking him once backstage at AEW for that.

Jay White's latest instagram post sums it up.

Attachments:

I love the belief that the Miz does not have a high workrate level when the guy can promo anytime, anywhere. If most of his time is spent outside of the ring, how does he has a shit workrate?

Sure he did suck when he debuted, but that was almost 20 years ago. He proven time and time again he can deliver these days, and will do whatever the company wants.

One point I forgot to mention is that I feel Dave overcompensates to try and avoid being stuck behind the times. While the intention is great and I'd much rather listen to Dave embrace modern wrestling, there are times where he'll over-hype something and seemingly miss the point. I also think it led to him and Cornette falling out, since Dave distanced himself from Jim just to avoid being tarred with the same brush which is pretty lousy.

Dave has always been a little unfair on The Miz. Even when he was doing the Total Bellas parody that everybody loved, Meltzer basically said it was worthless and did nothing to sell the match.

I'm fine with him being critical of the WWE because there's plenty to be critical about and it's such a shady corporation. However, his reporting on AEW makes me question his objectivity and whether he's actually covering everything and asking questions of the business. So far it seems like a utopia of a federation where everyone is happy and there's never been any dramas when there is all sorts of stuff that should be called out. A lot of undeserving talents getting booked into positions because they're friends with one of the stars, bad injuries due to dangerous workers, clashes in creative, poorly explained storyline, silly segments.

I'm fine if he enjoyed the Bucks/FTR match, but don't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining.