Jan 25, 2021 11:40:45 GMT 🤯 said:

This is undisputedly Bret's greatest worst look ever:

Corrected your post. Hideous. Bret not in tights is just wrong. I had fortunately forgotten all about Bret's 1993 Survivor Series fashion faux pas. Unthanks for reminding me.

Another all time great Savage look, they made a statue out of it.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

Jan 21, 2021 23:25:43 GMT NATH45 said:

A) Its May 2001 Baker , WCW finds a new financial backer and stays alive. Which young lion/mid card act do you push to the main event and how long before they win the big gold belt?

Honestly? Nobody. At least not all the way to the top. Rey, Kanyon, Kidman, and even Lance or Buff could main event a B PPV in a pinch with the right storyline against the right opponent, but I'd never go all the way with any of them.

The best answer I can give you is Sean O'Haire. I was personally never a Sean O'Haire guy, but it's not like there are a ton of options, and he was the darling of the remaining WCW fanbase.

I once did a "Saving WCW" fanfic solely as a rebuttal to another poster on some long forgotten forum whose big idea to save WCW was a Randy Savage vs. Shane Douglas feud in 2001-2002. I thought that was one of the worst wrestling related ideas I ever encountered and figured I could do a better job despite not even watching dying day WCW. I built O'Haire up for a big Starrcade 2001 match with Sting. And that's where I stopped the project.

Let's assume I continue the project and put O'Haire over the Stinger. That sets up a big Goldberg (who won the title at Starrcade 01) vs. O'Haire program in early 2002. If the theoretical fanbase is really into O'Haire I suppose I could pull the trigger on him at some point in 2002.

Anyway, I had 3 big ideas to save WCW. I went with the most simple and realistic one for that fanfic project....

1. Rebuild Goldberg. Push him to the moon.
2. Break the bank for RVD. Make him The Guy.
3. WCW/ECW merger. Would have been a fun experiment, but my love of getting everybody on the card made it impossibility. I wanted like 15 matches on every PPV.

As best I can remember, the big Starrcade 2001 show I was building to looked something like...

Two Count (Helms & Moore) vs. The Extremists (Kidman & Crowbar) vs. Jung Dragons (Freebird Rules entry)- Ladder Match
Rey Misterio Jr. vs. Christopher Daniels- Cruiserweight Title Match
Kronik vs. Totally Buff- #1 Contenders Match
Jerry Lynn vs. Eddie Guerrero- TV Title Match
Sabu vs. Mike Awesome- Hardcore Title Match
Attitude (Road Dogg & Brian Christopher) vs. Horsemen (CW Anderson & Simon "Diamond" Blanchard)- Tag Title Match
Steve Corino (& Jerry Lawler?) vs. Dusty Rhodes (& Dustin Rhodes?)- Bunkhouse Brawl
DDP vs. Kanyon- No DQ Street Fight Falls Count Anywhere deal
Lance Storm vs. Booker T- 2/3 Falls US Title Match to end this forever feud once and for all
"Nature Boy" Ric Flair vs. "Nature Boy" Jeff Jarrett- Nature Boy vs. Nature Boy for control of the Horsemen
Sting vs. Sean O'Haire- #1 Contenders Match
Mega Powers vs. Outsiders- Losers Leave Town.....and so do the winners
Scott Steiner vs. Goldberg- WCW Championship Match

*Still a few too many matches lol. MegaPowers/Outsiders "Dream Match" probably took place earlier so I could squeeze one last drop out of the difficult olds before kicking them to the curb. We can scrap the Kronik match too. Chances are I was already in the midst of the big Horsemen (JJ/Corino/CW/Simon) push rather than kicking it off here. 

Jan 21, 2021 23:25:43 GMT NATH45 said:

B) ECW survives bankruptcy, but its roster is depleted by WWF and WCW raids.. who's on your top 10 wish list from the independents to sign?

Another fun question. It's easy in hindsight to just draft the future ROH roster. So....

1. CM Punk- The Straight Edge gimmick would have been a heat magnet in ECW. Likely becomes the top heel within a year.
2. Low Ki- The must see status of early Sabu meets the kicks of Tajiri and the intensity of Taz.
3. Christopher Daniels- Workrate Raven
4. Samoa Joe- Rhino + Mike Awesome but better than both
5. AJ Styles- Kid Kash role as the athletic good match guy who gets over enough to work his way into title contention
6. American Dragon- Malenko meets Jerry Lynn. Would start off putting over touring rivals Ki & Spanky. Ends up having more value than both. 
7. Amazing Red- Rey Misterio Jr. Jr. Or a more athletic version of Mikey and Spike
8. Homicide- Workrate New Jack
9. Spanky- Always liked the idea of Brian Kendrick more than the reality. Perfect world he gets over as a flamboyant sports entertaining heel.
10. Prince Nana- We need one mic working classic sports entertainer amidst all these new style workrate darlings

It's easy with the benefit of hindsight. It's also boring. Truth is Daniels was the only wrestler in that group I had ever seen in action when ECW went out of business. Ki, Joe, AJ, Dragon & Spanky were on my radar by then, but I had yet to see them compete. And I'm pretty sure I hadn't even heard of Punk, Red, Homicide, and Nana yet. So!
====================
This is what I actually would have done to save ECW in 2001. There were 3 wrestlers at the top of my ECW wish list going way back to late 1998. Those 3 I'm bringing in with a big push right away while the rest trickle in throughout the rest of the year... 

1. Christopher Daniels
2. Tom Brandi
3. Christian York

4. Low Ki
5. Amazing Red
6. Michael Modest
7. Maxx Justice
8. Joey Abs
9. Spanky
10. AJ or Bryan

Daniels was the King of the Indies. By this point he had been the most hyped in ring talent on that scene for over 2 years. He also tricked a whole lot of people (including yours truly) into thinking he had sports entertainment value due to actually having a gimmick. My #1 pick with a bullet.

ECW had always been a home for reclamation projects. Tom "Sal Sincere" Brandi fits the bill. He was so good! I saw him get nuclear heat at my local indie. He was also sharper than you'd think in the ring. Has a ready made feud with former Eastern Championship Wrestling partner Tommy Dreamer. I'd push him as the bitter veteran Nu Franchise.

York was technically already on the roster/under WWF Developmental deal. I'd make a serious play to get him full time. And if not, he was future endeavored by WWF in July 01 anyway. First order of business would be to break up his team with Matthews. They have an epic feud a la Jeter/Cappotelli (or Michaels/Jannetty for you WWF only folks) with York going over. He then becomes a top babyface feuding with likely ECW Champ Brandi and/or likely TV Champ Daniels.

Ki & Red were two unique talents that I'd likely sign on the spot the first time I saw them. 

Modest was another longtime "King of the Indies" contender who doubled as Daniels' then most famous indie rival. He'd start out as the Guerrero to Daniels' Malenko but would soon turn heel with a stuffy "Wrestling Purist" gimmick. 

Before Samoa Joe, Maxx Justice was the big heavyweight badass on the California indie scene. This Ludvig Borga lookalike in green Mountie pants had some cool power moves and a long history with Mike Modest. He could serve as my poor man's Mike Awesome.

Joey "Venom" Abs is another reclamation project and potential Mike Awesome fill in. He was actually thought to be the OMEGA prospect with the most long term upside due to his size before a variety of factors derailed his career. Maybe we can get his career back on track. How about Brandi/Abs/Modest as the Nu Triple Threat with the gimmick being all 3 guys were screwed by The Establishment? 

I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong. I think it's funny. And I was wrong about Spanky/AJ/Bryan. I thought Spanky had, by far, the most upside of that trio due to his sports entertainment instincts.

I slept on AJ & Bryan for a looooong time. Bryan's style was too niche. It would never get over with the mainstream. Plus he had no charisma and an all time bad look. AJ was just another decent flyer with no charisma and a generic look. Destined to top out as the modern day Kidman...if he's lucky. BUT I couldn't think of a decent 10th. Decided to throw AJ in because he already had some hype and Bryan because he was already established as a touring rival for two guys I actually have plans for in Ki & Kendrick. 

*WWE Developmental guy Steve Bradley would have made my list for sure due to years of "Next RVD!" internet hype, but he was actually under WWF Developmental contract all the way until July 2002. 

Okay here's another question that's been on my mind.

What's your thoughts on shoot interviews? Do you enjoy that peek behind the curtain or does it ruin the magic for you? What are some shoot interviews that stand out to you and who is your holy grail?

Feb 2, 2021 10:49:01 GMT Big Pete said:

1. What's your thoughts on shoot interviews?
2. Do you enjoy that peek behind the curtain or does it ruin the magic for you?
3. What are some shoot interviews that stand out to you
4. and who is your holy grail?

1. I enjoy them. Though probably not as much as the Youtube algorithm seems to think. Half of my recommendations are shoot interview clips and it's been that way for a long time.

2. Much like the Attitude Era, shoot interviews are interesting and entertaining, but ultimately bad for the business. Too late to put that genie back in the bottle though. Shoot interviews have been an accepted part of the industry for a long time now. 

3. You never forget your first. So the one that stands out the most for me is a Jim Cornette shoot from approximately August 95 that I got on tape in late 97-early 98. There had been worked shoots on tv, and I heard a few half shoot/half kayfabe interviews on my local wrestling radio show, but Cornette was the first guy I ever heard go off for hours with no filter. I thought it was the coolest thing. Poor Tim Horner. 

I enjoy most of them tbh. So long as they're not blatant liars like Black Bart or the interviewee is embarrassing themselves by being all hopped on drugs or alcohol. Sadly I've seen too many shoots that fall into both categories. But even the really bad ones often have trainwreck value.

Nowadays I'm tired of hearing about the same old eras, promotions, and wrestlers. I'm more interested in hearing about the territories or 90s indies. 

4. Vince. Nobody else even comes close. 

What are your thoughts on the short lived attempt of Tajiri building a stable with
Akio (Jimmy Yang) & Sakoda ?

Apr 5, 2021 6:51:44 GMT System said:

What are your thoughts on the short lived attempt of Tajiri building a stable with
Akio (Jimmy Yang) & Sakoda ?

It was alright. I like how it gave Tajiri a little boost. That's always a good thing. It also introduced Akio to WWE. Akio was cool. Enjoyed watching him wrestle.

But Sakoda wasn't even a decent Buddy Roberts and the stable never really went anywhere. Story I heard is Tajiri didn't like the idea of this stable because he worried it would get him heat with the real life Yakuza.

Jan 12, 2021 23:58:33 GMT @ness said:

- Tell us if you ever had any serious thinking of "getting in DIS BUSINESS" like a lot of fans do.

Inspired by @ness recent storytime I decided it was time to chronicle my own wrestling "career." Going to break this up into 3 parts- Early Days. 95-96 Golden Age of House Wrestling. Latter Days where I entertained semi-serious thoughts of getting into the business. 

Early Days: 87-95

My brother and I started watching wrestling in January '87. By February '87 I'm sure we were indeed trying this at home. Just going to chime in with a few memories from this era...

The Sleeper- Brutus Beefcake would rub his opponent's forehead when applying the Sleeper. My brother and I thought this rubbing was the key to putting people to sleep. So we'd just go to town rubbing each others foreheads whilst applying the sleeper. Neither of us ever even got tired. So for the longest time I thought the sleeper, which in reality is one of the most legit moves in wrestling, was actually the phoniest of them all. Probably believed this until the late 90s.

The Earthquake- Some time between November 89-June 90 I was determined to try out the coolest and most devastating new move in wrestling- Earthquake's Earthquake Splash. Of course my brother was the guinea pig. I went for it. He got skittish and moved at the last second. Big mistake. He moved too late. I ended up stomping on his face with my right foot. There was no avoiding it. I don't know if the fact I was barefoot made it better or worse for the poor lad. Nor do I recall the aftermath, but it probably involved crying, and either devolved into a shoot or he tattled on me to our parents. Maybe both?

The Piledriver- My wrestling fan cousins who had been watching longer than my brother and I moved to Pennsylvania in the summer of '89. The youngest of the two, who was closer to my brother's age, had a sleepover birthday party during Christmas break 1989 (I can pinpoint this because I remember watching a Florida vs. Washington college football bowl game when I came home). One of their new PA friends was an obnoxious kid with a bowl cut I'm going to call Bowl Cut Brent. He had been getting on my nerves all day. I finally had enough and hoisted him up for a sweet Piledriver. I piledrove him on the couch, mind you. Didn't want to hurt the kid. Just teach him a lesson that I could if I was so inclined. It worked. He became less obnoxious after that. Though I never did fully take to him during my occasional excursions to visit my cousins in the Keystone State.

Pillow Wrestling- I popped when Nessticle mentioned this because I did the same thing. The peak of me wrestling pillows was some time between 91-93. My brother had largely "outgrown" wrestling by this point. So I needed a new guinea pig. Enter the pillows. Most days after school I would "do my homework" in my parents room. In reality I only spent a few minutes breezing through my homework. The rest of those hours were spent watching Fox's Peter Pan & The Pirates, watching wrestling at 6 pm on grainy DC Channel 50, and wrestling pillows. The real reasons I used their room are because they had the only tv in the house that could get the cool DC stations that aired wrestling every weeknight at 6 pm and they also had a big bouncy bed ideal for wrestling pillows. My bottom bunk bed sucked for such things. I really went all out, having these elaborate back and forth matches....with pillows. In fact, my Lumberjack Jess action figure league, which I chronicled extensively in this thread pwcom.proboards.com/thread/1485/action-figure-leagues?page=2 actually started here with me wrestling pillows. The best part? My parents surely thought I was the most studious scholar in the business. If only they knew the truth...

Fwiw I was still doing moves to pillows until at least 2000. Couldn't walk into my bedroom without practicing at least one powerbomb on my poor unsuspecting pillows. But this 91-93 period was the peak of my pillow wrestling escapades.

The Most Painful Small Package- Occasionally I could still coax my brother into being my guinea pig. This was one such occasion in approximately 1993. We were in our parents room with the big bouncy bed taking turns doing moves. I came up with a surprisingly advanced move for one of my wrestling figure league characters (either Earl of Doom or The Nightstalker). It was basically a Full Nelson Driver. The concept being the attacker picked their opponent up in Full Nelson position and flipped them forward. They'd land on their head/neck in a super tight pinning position. I figured a modern wrestler would have "stole" this by now but I was unable to find a video. Too dangerous perhaps? The closest thing I've seen in real life is Quiet Storm's old Storm Cradle Driver. Anyway, I wasn't strong enough to properly do the move, BUT I did roll him forward onto the bed in a SUPER TIGHT pinning position. He submitted instantly....to what was basically a fancy small package. He may have also thrown a shoot punch. Can't remember for sure. But he said it was extremely painful. He couldn't breathe and thought I was about to break his neck. I don't think we wrestled again for 2 years. Being my personal wrestling dummy had become too dangerous.

A Three on One Mugging- This time it's 93-94. I was at the local park with three friends- Matt The IRS Fan, his brother Dan who wasn't really a wrestling fan but was a Mr. Perfect fan, and Joey who was a hardcore Lex Luger/Undertaker fan. We started out playing a traditional sport. Pretty sure it was a brutal football game you could never get away with today called "Smear The Queer." Our game of STQ soon devolved into a wrestling match. Matt was my best friend of the three and the only one I wrestled semi-regularly. He was honestly a 1/10 load. Didn't like taking stuff and was rather stiff. Anyway, I must have been the obnoxious "Bowl Cut Brent" on this occasion because all 3 of my so-called friends soon turned on me. It devolved into a 3 on 1 quasi-wrestling match/quasi-beatdown. Maybe 80% shoot/20% worked. And it ended when they hit this awesome, but extremely painful move on me- One of the brothers grabbed my arms. The other my legs. They stretched me out and picked me up off the ground. Then Joey The Jerk came flying in with a jumping double knee drop on my gut. OUCH! I was done after that. Playtime was over. They had taken it too far. I told them as much. Took my ball and went home. 

Now here is where it goes from an awful, traumatizing moment to legendary. Their heinous attack really did hurt! Also, that move they did, dickish as it undoubtedly was, is actually another super cool move somebody should have stole a long time ago. It would have been ideal for the Michinoku Pro version of Kaientai. Anyway, while it did hurt, I oversold it the whole walk home. I'd collapse on the front yards with the fluffiest grass every few houses. There were probably feigned moans of pain. It was some top notch goldbricking as I turned what was maybe an 8-10 minute walk home into an arduous 20 minute ordeal. I don't even really know why I did it. Guess I was just a drama queen. 

But it worked to my benefit in the end. What I didn't know is one of my three abusers had followed me. They had been spying on me from a distance the entire time. I didn't find this out until the next day when Matt (who was my best friend of the trio) admitted it and even managed to apologize for taking things too far. See, because the spy witnessed my dramatic overselling and this lead to the Terrible Trio thinking they did far more damage than they actually did. I considered that a victory.  Moral of the Story: Always play for sympathy.

Next Time: The 95-96 House Wrestling Golden Age. And if you thought this one was long.... I'll probably break the next chapter up into 2 parts.

Jun 4, 2021 1:49:16 GMT Baker said:

Jan 12, 2021 23:58:33 GMT @ness said:

- Tell us if you ever had any serious thinking of "getting in DIS BUSINESS" like a lot of fans do.

Inspired by @ness recent storytime I decided it was time to chronicle my own wrestling "career." Going to break this up into 3 parts- Early Days. 95-96 Golden Age of House Wrestling. Latter Days where I entertained semi-serious thoughts of getting into the business. 

Early Days: 87-95

My brother and I started watching wrestling in January '87. By February '87 I'm sure we were indeed trying this at home. Just going to chime in with a few memories from this era...

The Sleeper- Brutus Beefcake would rub his opponent's forehead when applying the Sleeper. My brother and I thought this rubbing was the key to putting people to sleep. So we'd just go to town rubbing each others foreheads whilst applying the sleeper. Neither of us ever even got tired. So for the longest time I thought the sleeper, which in reality is one of the most legit moves in wrestling, was actually the phoniest of them all. Probably believed this until the late 90s.

The Earthquake- Some time between November 89-June 90 I was determined to try out the coolest and most devastating new move in wrestling- Earthquake's Earthquake Splash. Of course my brother was the guinea pig. I went for it. He got skittish and moved at the last second. Big mistake. He moved too late. I ended up stomping on his face with my right foot. There was no avoiding it. I don't know if the fact I was barefoot made it better or worse for the poor lad. Nor do I remember the aftermath, but it probably involved crying, and either devolved into a shoot or he tattled on me to our parents. Maybe both?

The Piledriver- My wrestling fan cousins who had been watching longer than my brother and I moved to Pennsylvania in the summer of '89. The youngest of the two, who was closer to my brother's age, had a sleepover birthday party during Christmas break 1989 (I can pinpoint this because I remember watching a Florida vs. Washington college football bowl game when I came home). One of their new PA friends was an obnoxious kid with a bowl cut I'm going to call Bowl Cut Brent. He had been getting on my nerves all day. I finally had enough and hoisted him to hit a sweet Piledriver. I piledrove him on the couch, mind you. Didn't want to hurt the kid. Just teach him a lesson that I could if I was so inclined. It worked. He became less obnoxious after that. Though I never did fully take to him during my occasional excursions to visit my cousins in the Keystone State.

Pillow Wrestling- I popped when Nessticle mentioned this because I did the same thing. The peak of me wrestling pillows was some time between 91-93. My brother had "outgrown" wrestling by this point. So I needed a new guinea pig. Enter the pillows. Most days after school I would "do my homework" in my parents room. In reality I only spent a few minutes breezing through my homework. The rest of those hours were spent watching Fox's Peter Pan & The Pirates, watching wrestling at 6 pm on grainy DC Channel 50, and wrestling pillows. The real reasons I used their room are because they had the only tv in the house that could get the cool DC stations that aired wrestling and they also had a big bouncy bed ideal for wrestling pillows. My bottom bunk bed sucked for such things. I really went all out, having these elaborate back and forth matches....with pillows. In fact, my Lumberjack Jess action figure league, which I chronicled extensively in this thread pwcom.proboards.com/thread/1485/action-figure-leagues?page=2 actually started here with me wrestling pillows.

Fwiw I was still doing moves to pillows until at least 2000. Couldn't walk into my bedroom without practicing at least one powerbomb on my poor unsuspecting pillows. But this 91-93 period was the peak of my pillow wrestling escapades.

The Most Painful Small Package- Occasionally I could still coax my brother into being my guinea pig. This was one such occasion in approximately 1993. We were in our parents room with the big bouncy bed taking turns doing moves. I came up with a surprisingly advanced move for one of my wrestling figure league characters (either Earl of Doom or The Nightstalker). It was basically a Full Nelson Driver. The concept being I'd pick my opponent up in Full Nelson position and flip them forward. They'd land on their head/neck in a super tight pinning position. I figured a modern wrestler would have "stole" this by now but I was unable to find a video. Too dangerous perhaps? The closest thing I've seen in real life is Quiet Storm's old Storm Cradle Driver. Anyway, I wasn't strong enough to properly do the move. BUT I did roll him forward onto the bed in a SUPER TIGHT pinning position. He submitted instantly....to what was basically a tricked out small package. He may have also thrown a shoot punch. Can't remember for sure. But he said it was extremely painful. He couldn't breathe and thought I was about to break his neck. I don't think we wrestled again for 2 years. Being my personal wrestling dummy had become too dangerous.

A Three on One Mugging- This time it's 93-94. I was at the local park with three friends- Matt The IRS Fan, his brother Dan who wasn't really a wrestling fan but was a Mr. Perfect fan, and Joey who was a hardcore Lex Luger/Undertaker fan. We started out playing a traditional sport. Pretty sure it was a brutal football game called "Smear The Queer." Can't remember the details, but I must have been obnoxious because all 3 of my "friends" turned on me. It devolved into a 3 on 1 quasi-wrestling match/quasi-beatdown. Maybe 80% shoot/20% worked. And it ended when they hit this awesome, but extremely painful move on me- One of the brothers grabbed my arms. The other my legs. They stretched me out and picked me up off the ground. Then Joey The Jerk came flying in with a jumping double knee drop on my gut. OUCH! I was done after that. Playtime was over. They had taken it too far. I told them as much. Took my ball and went home. 

Now here is where it goes from an awful, traumatizing moment to legendary. Their heinous attack really did hurt! Also, that move they did, dickish as it undoubtedly was, is actually another super cool move somebody should have stole a long time ago. It would have been ideal for the Michinoku Pro version of Kaientai. Anyway, while it did hurt, I oversold it the whole walk home. I'd collapse on the front yards with the fluffiest grass every few houses. There were probably feigned moans of pain. It was some top notch goldbricking as I turned what was maybe an 8-10 minute walk home into an epic 20 minute ordeal. I don't even really know why I did it. Guess I was just a drama queen. 

But it worked to my benefit in the end. What I didn't know is one of my three abusers had followed me. They had been spying on me from a distance the entire time. I didn't find this out until the next day when Matt (who was my best friend of the trio) admitted it and even managed to apologize for taking things too far. See, because the spy witnessed my dramatic overselling and thought this lead to the Terrible Trio thinking they did far more damage than they actually did. I considered that a victory.  Moral of the Story: Always play for sympathy.

Next Time: The 95-96 House Wrestling Golden Age. And if you thought this one was long.... I'll probably break the next chapter up into 2 parts.

I started with pillows then advanced to this ALF plushie. Great for grabbing the hair and smashing into the "turnbuckle" (the upper arm rest of our couch.)



My peak was also around 1991-93. Two houses near me got trampolines so it was only natural to have supercards and tournaments with my friends. We even used the belts from the WWF merch catalog as championships. 

Anyone who claims they didn't wrestle pillows is a fucking liar and can't be trusted.

When I was really young, my dad used to have a bed that had a (fake?) brass headboard that looked like a fence attached to a bed, like some gaudy '70s shit that had survived into the mid-to-late '80s. I would place a pillow at the foot of the bed, climb to the top of the headboard and drop a Macho Man elbow onto that pillow for hours at a time. Shirtless, obviously.

Teenage me would still wrestle pillows from time to time. Basically trying out "cool movez." It would always some variation of spiking the pillow into a bed (or floor) in a move that would surely kill a person if tried for real. But that was what made pillows the best wrestling dance partner. You can't kill a pillow, worst case scenario, beat the stuffing out of it. Dropped a lot of DDTs with pillows in my day.

A buddy of mine in high school had this great bit where he would randomly, emphasis on randomly, the more random the better, just grab a throw pillow from his parents couch, spike it onto the ground then do working stomps on it while making "Bret Hart face," and it was a bit with 100% success rate, killed every single time.

Wrestling with actual buddies was always terrible because egos would get involved. Also a miracle none of us were ever killed. Wrestling pillows, however, good honest fun.

Now I need to know what "Bret Hart face" is!

Jun 4, 2021 12:08:58 GMT 🤯 said:

Now I need to know what "Bret Hart face" is!

See the top of the page.

Jun 4, 2021 3:49:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Anyone who claims they didn't wrestle pillows is a fucking liar and can't be trusted.

Hell yeah. One of my buddies had a big body pillow like thing we worked on our tag moves with. I went to drop an elbow on the pillow once and was a bit short going through the wood coffee table. My one and only table spot.

Baker, Why do you think Lex Luger was so over in 1996? given his run previously in 1989?

Why do you think The Rockers never got a run as WWF tag team champions?

Jun 4, 2021 18:42:29 GMT Ed said:

Baker , Why do you think Lex Luger was so over in 1996? given his run previously in 1989?

I don't see the correlation between 1989 & 1996. A lot can happen in 7 years.

If we're talking late 1996, Luger was over because he was the guy out there fighting the NWO week in and week out. Sting was dealing with his midlife crisis by reverting back to a broody teenager phase. Flair was out with injury. Giant sold out. Savage was MIA for a while. Then he also sold out. Piper was only around sometimes. DDP was still a sleazy heel for much of that time. Flexy Lexy was the man holding the fort down for Team WCW. While the NWO undoubtedly had their fans, it was the front line NWO fighters like Sting, DDP, Goldberg, and, yes, Lex Luger, who got the huge babyface pops in peak WCW.

The broader answer is Lex was consistently over from 87-97 because he was treated as a big deal. I think it was Shootist who compiled the PWI Top 10 rankings for the entire 90s, which is a good measure of kayfabe success, and Luger finished something like #5 overall during that timeframe. Fans, especially in those days, tended to care about guys who were treated as stars. Now just imagine if promotions had went all the way with Luger!*

*This had been my talking point for a long time, but I've recently heard it confirmed by multiple sources that Lex refused at least one World Championship reign. Turns out he was one of those guys who just there for the money. He showed up. Did his job. Went home. Made lots of money. And had no desire to go the extra mile by being the face of a company.

Jun 12, 2021 21:59:04 GMT Ed said:

Why do you think The Rockers never got a run as WWF tag team champions?

Timing was never right?/Vince got cold feet?

Best answer(s) I've got. They simply didn't do a lot of title changes in those days.

Then there is the infamous match where the Rockers actually beat the Hart Foundation for the Tag Titles at a Main Event taping....which never aired. I'm not sure WWF ever publicly acknowledged the existence of this match on tv. This was October/November 1990 and it's the closest the Rockers ever came to being champions. I didn't learn about it until 96-97 when I read about it in a wrestling magazine. Pretty sure it was actually a WWF Magazine article intended to add heat to the Bret/Shawn feud. The company line is Vince and/or the other people in power thought the match, which featured a broken top rope iirc, was too bad to air. I think that's just a convenient excuse. I mean, they aired a TON of bad matches during the late 80s/early 90s. 

Maybe Vince, or somebody else in power, got cold feet due to remembering their ill fated first WWF run which lasted about a week and saw them get fired for bad behavior?

For a second I thought I had finally found the answer- "Vince didn't like pushing small tag teams! The Rougeaux, Killer Bees, and Young Stallions* never won the titles either!" But then I remembered the Bulldogs & Strike Force did. So there goes that talking point.

*Only in 80s WWF would the Young Stallions be considered "small guys"  :lol:

So we'll just go with "the timing was never right/Vince got cold feet."

I wonder what was Vince's fixation with replacing Hulk Hogan when he left WWF in 1994? Hulkamania lasted 9 years. You would think Vince would want to go in a completely different direction. No wonder fans didn't buy Luger as Hogan's successor.

I've always rightly or wrongly penned you as a oldschool guy. Peaking at the new generation as far as being a fan. But you seem to have a decent foot print on the indies with posts about the Super 8 and going to ROH shows in Baltimore. What actually is your wheelhouse?

LOL The HoW regulars will probably want to skip this post. You've all seen this song & dance before...
pwcom.proboards.com/thread/3365/rebooking-lex-lugers-wwf-run

Jun 13, 2021 1:56:50 GMT Ed said:

I wonder what was Vince's fixation with replacing Hulk Hogan when he left WWF in 1994? Hulkamania lasted 9 years. You would think Vince would want to go in a completely different direction. No wonder fans didn't buy Luger as Hogan's successor.

You stick with what works. Vince pushing a younger, stronger* version of Hogan with a full head of hair was the most natural thing in the world. Luger in WWF failed not because Vince "overpushed" him, but because Vince inexplicably failed to pull the trigger when Lex was red hot. 

*Hogan failed to slam Yoko. Luger succeeded. Hence the "stronger" part. 

The claim that Luger wasn't over as a babyface in WWF is a blatant lie. Revisionist history at its worst. Watch a 93-94 Luger babyface match. Doesn't matter which one because the crowd is going to be into him with cheers and "USA" chants every single time.

The go to example for these revisionist historians is the crowd choosing Bret over Luger at the '94 Royal Rumble. Yeah, ok, one crowd one night in Providence slightly preferred Hart to Luger. Fair enough. I'll concede defeat here.

But now imagine if Luger hadn't been booked to choke at Summerslam '93. WWF inexplicably booked him to fail that night after a hype job that would make even Hogan blush. Of course he's going to lose some popularity! It's a minor miracle he retained as much popularity as he did. Yet Luger still remained over for the duration of his WWF run even after one of the most boneheaded booking decisions in company history. He just wasn't as popular as he could/should have been. 

I will go to my grave thinking Luger would have drawn at least as well as Bret in the US (though admittedly not as well overseas) if WWF had pulled the trigger at Summerslam '93 and I refuse to even entertain the idea that he wouldn't have drawn as well as Diesel. 

I will also admit I'm biased towards "Made In The USA" Lex Luger for anecdotal reasons...

The popularity of wrestling in my neighborhood had been in decline since Wrestlemania VII and bottomed out after Royal Rumble '92. It was no longer a topic of conversation on the playground. It had become uncool. For 17 months I did not know a single wrestling fan. Everybody else had outgrown it and moved on. I was the last fan standing...

Until Lex slammed Yoko. All of a sudden people were talking about wrestling again. It was an instantaneous thing, too. I assume these people had been wrestling fans the entire time but just kept quiet about it because wrestling was no longer cool. Luger slamming Yoko made wrestling cool again. It kicked off a mini-boom period in my neighborhood which lasted until Royal Rumble '94. Summerslam 93 & Survivor Series 93 were the only PPVs I watched between WM 7 and Summerslam 95 because Lugermania was most definitely a thing here in Baltimore County. Everybody loved Lex....

Except for me! That's the crazy part. I didn't even like good guy Lex Luger. He was the worst. The Narcissist had been my favorite wrestler and I missed that character. Luger slammed my man Yoko, who had become an instant legend to me when he squashed Hulkamania. The last thing I personally wanted was another Hogan. But I was just one weird jerk who almost always rooted for the heels to be an edgy contrarian rebel or some such nonsense. Yet even as a dumb young heel fan I knew patriotic musclemen who flexed and slammed fatties were where the $$$$$ was. So I could at least respect Luger as the top guy. He checked all the boxes. Then it didn't happen! I was actually thrilled. But I also realized how weird and foolish it was even back then as a Luger hating rube.

TL;DR Luger only failed because he didn't win the title at Summerslam '93 and go on to hold it for 31 months. This is a non-negotiable opinion.

I've always thought Luger arriving via helicopter while the other guys heroically trying their best to slam Yoko was very heel-ish. I heard a soundbite months ago. While many of the fans were dejected they didn't get Hogan as the man to avenge America that day. They did warm up to Luger in short order, though.

My anecdotal recollection of watching SummerSlam '93 with a room full of people was everyone fired up for the Lex Express, then before the finish no longer caring because it was such a dud. People were making fun of Luger's offensive grunts, it was like the perfect microcosm of the Lex Express run, this rushed push that people tried to talk themselves into and then realizing it sucked before the match was even over. Then the finish just killed whatever chance to salvage it. I personally think it was always destined to fail, but it was also dumb to not give it a go, especially considering how bad Yoko fucking sucked.

They should have had Fuji cut a promo. Saying America's are so weak, Yoko will put the title on the line on the intrepid. If any can slam him, they win the title. Lex is made on that day.

Baker while we're on the topic of not pulling the trigger with Lex. What was the reason he did not go over at Starrcade 88? This is something I've always been curious about. Only answer I can come up with is there were already a plans for Steamboat.

Jun 13, 2021 11:13:41 GMT @ness said:

I've always rightly or wrongly penned you as a oldschool guy. Peaking at the new generation as far as being a fan. But you seem to have a decent foot print on the indies with posts about the Super 8 and going to ROH shows in Baltimore. What actually is your wheelhouse?

Penning me as an old school guy is an accurate take. I'd say my wheelhouse is 87-00 US wrestling with a special preference for televised promotions and a special special preference for WWF. The real time peak of my fandom was 95-00. 

But I was also really into indie wrestling for a while. I don’t bring it up much because it doesn’t interest me these days, but I feel like I could go toe to toe with anybody who posted on PW over the last 9 years other than kashdinero and maybe c when it comes to indie wrestling knowledge from 98-05ish.

Yet I was never one of "those" indie fans (or one of "those" WWF fans if we're being honest). Basically, WWF was always the main course while the indies supplemented my wrestling diet. 

*Spoiler tagging this very long post to avoid cluttering up the forum in case people just want to quickly scroll through the Recent Posts.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}
I first learned about indie wrestling courtesy of the Apter Mags in late '95. Until then I had no idea non-televised wrestling existed. Nor could I even imagine such a thing existing. "How would people know about these wrestling shows if they're not on tv??" It blew my mind. I also didn't take into account regionalism or wrestling in foreign countries, though I was pretty sure Japanese wrestling was a real thing by this point. I never thought about where wrestlers went when they disappeared from tv back then. If I had, I probably would have just assumed they went back to their "real jobs" of being mounties, cowboys, and tax men lol.  

At first I thought the "indies" referred to an apparently thriving wrestling scene in the West Indies since that was the only context in which I had ever seen the word used before. So for about five minutes in 1995 I absolutely thought wrestling was massive in places like Jamaica, Bermuda, and Barbados before realizing what the word meant in a wrestling context. Discovering wrestling existed outside WWF & WCW really was a life changing experience though. The wrestling world suddenly became far more vast than I ever could have imagined. At first I was really into following USWA & SMW (which died like a week later) before moving onto ECW. Not sure any of them technically count as indies, but whatever.

I had no way of actually watching any of these shows. For over two years I could only follow indie wrestling through the Apter Mags. I knew most of the big names. I became a fan of some of them before ever seeing them wrestle. Steve Corino was one of those guys I kept tabs on because the very first wrestling magazine I read during the Apter Mag boom period had an "Introducing" feature on Corino. So he became one of the guys I followed.

Around September '96 I learned we had a local Maryland indie called MEWF through a wrestling radio show I had just started listening to. MEWF ran shows only about a 10-15 minute drive away. And they used Steve Corino! Alas, I had no way of getting there  

By 1998 I was convinced the ECWA Super 8 was the premier indie show due to the copious amounts of Apter Mag coverage. 1998 was also the year my family got the internet. That new fangled invention only increased my indie wrestling knowledge.

My "Bryan Danielson vs. Lance Cade" was Taka Michinoku vs. Christopher Daniels on Shotgun in September '98. Cornette on commentary mentioned Daniels worked for a California promotion called APW. So I looked up APW online and soon started posting on their message board. That was one of my go to internet destinations for about a year. Never did buy any tapes though because they were really expensive compared to the ECW, NWA, and smattering of Japanese tapes I was regularly purchasing online from the likes of DXFan316, nWo420Life, and HoganH8r69.

Memphis Power Pro Wrestling was another "indie" promotion I followed religiously in 98-99. OK, so it was technically a WWF Developmental Fed. But close enough. 

Meanwhile, MCW had replaced MEWF as the cool local indie. By October '98 I finally had a license and car. It was then that I went to my first indie show- MCW. They had a working relationship with ECW so a bunch of ECW guys were booked on this show. Nova & Meanie were the standouts from the ECW crew on that one particular night. But the real star was Tom Brandi, who stole the show spitting fire on the mic as the lead heel doing a Triple H/Shane Douglas gimmick. I was hooked.

Went to a bunch of MCW shows over the next year, many of them with my cousin. Christian York soon supplanted Brandi as my guy due to having the flashiest movez in the company

But MCW suddenly seemed tired and stale after I started going to ECW shows at The Arena in Philly. A rinky dink local indie just couldn't compete with the game changing Philly promotion. I made the 90 minute drive to 8 ECW shows in 99-00, most of them once again with my cousin.

My interest in contemporary alternative wrestling declined a little in 2000-2001. Partially because I finally had a normal social life for a person my age and partially because I had gotten hooked on tapes from the 80s territories to fill my alternative wrestling fix. 

I still wasn't into buying indie tapes. The few I did purchase (mostly MCW) had horrible video quality and no commentary. No commentary, or foreign language commentary, was a major turnoff for me in those days.....and still is, to be honest. 

But my big indie boom was right around the corner. Christopher Daniels was my guy on the indie scene. He was booked against the hot new thing Low Ki on an ECWA show in November 2001. I had wanted to go to an ECWA event for like three years, preferably a Super 8, but this was good enough. So I finally made the 60 minute drive to Wilmington, DE for Ki/Daniels...

And was blown away. It surpassed Bret/Diesel at Survivor Series 95 and RVD/Sabu at the ECW Arena to become the best live match I had seen up to that point. 

ECWA was my jam over the next few months. I was hooked. Bought some tapes. Went to either 4 shows in a row, or 4 out of 5, including finally attending a Super 8! ECWA had a fun mix of new style wrestling and old school sports entertainment. They had state of the art wrestlers like Ki, Daniels, American Dragon and the SAT doing state of the art things. They also had fun weekend warriors with gimmicks that wouldn't have been out of place in the New Generation. And Prince Nana vs. Cheetah Master on top was this great 80s territory style feud dropped in to 01-02. But my ECWA fanaticism wouldn't last long because...

ROH soon became a thing. I was hyped for ROH before they ever held their first show. In fact, I wanted to attend that first show but was unable to because it fell on my birthday and other people had other plans for me that day. The genius of early ROH was in bringing the top stars in from around the country for dream matches at every single show. General consensus up to this point held that all those fly ins wouldn't be economically viable. Basically every early ROH show was like a non-tournament ECWA Super 8 featuring the most hyped indie stars from across the country in dream matches. 

It turned out I was unable to attend the first four ROH shows for reasons I forget. But I bought the tapes! And finally managed to make it to Philly for my first ROH show in July 2002. It was "Crowning A Champion" where Low Ki won the title in a 60 minute Ironman 4 Way with a weird point system.

Anyway, ROH soon rendered ECWA obsolete and would be my primary alternative wrestling fix for the next 3+ years. 

I quickly became a big ROH fan without ever becoming one of THOSE ROH fans. Not gonna lie. The pretentiousness of the ROH fanbase was a major turnoff and, yeah, I enjoyed needling them just as I enjoyed messing with the rabid ECW fans in the dying days of that promotion. It's like "Dude, your favorite thing is a small time wrestling promotion. It's a niche of a niche. Get over yourself." 

Anyway, I went to 4 ROH shows in 2002, 3 in 2003, 5 in 2004, 1 in 2005, and 1 in 2006. I also bought a lot of tapes/DVDs. All but 2 of the live shows I attended during this period were in Philly, not Baltimore. I saw a bunch of great matches, and was in the building for 3 of the first 4 ROH title changes- Ki becoming the first champ. Xavier beating Ki. And Aries beating Joe in the best live match I ever saw.

My absolute favorites were Daniels & Embassy Era Jimmy Rave. Then Raven (even if he did kind of suck) and the Ring Crew Express. Was also a fan of Shelley, Corino, London, Aries, Amazing Red, post Special K Jay Lethal, Jimmy Jacobs, and Prince Nana.

Always had a blast booing CM Punk with every ounce of energy I could muster. Rooted against most of the tippy top tier guys (Ki, Joe, American Dragon, Homicide) to be honest. Aside from a handful of tru greats like ECW Taz and 00-01 HHH, DEAD SRS wrestlers were never really my thing. In fact, they often served as a magnet for the natural trolling instincts possessed by my younger self.

My #2 indie from 02-04 would have to be IWA Mid South and I'm not really sure why lol. But I had about a dozen or so tapes. Occasionally checked out CZW, JAPW, 3PW, PWF (Steve Corino's lousy PA fed where good wrestlers went to dog it), CHIKARA, and MCW MD shows as well. Saw all these live at least once during my indie boom period, and also had a CZW tape or two. Fun Fact: I have never seen a single PWG match. Even during the peak of my indie fandom I had to draw the line somewhere.

The JAPW & CZW shows were entirely because of my latest indie wrestling hero- Teddy Hart. I was a massive Teddy Hart fanboy during the height of Teddymania in 04-05. He's still my all time favorite wrestler to see live. The furthest I ever traveled for wrestling show was about a 3 hour drive to New Jersey just to see Teddy Hart (vs. Homicide). 

I also followed TNA online from the very beginning, and began regularly ordering their weekly pay per views when Raven came aboard in January 2003. My friend Bryan and I averaged ordering 2 out of 3 TNA PPVs in 2003 into early 2004. Top tier faves included Raven, Jarrett (duh), Daniels, and AMW. Then you had Erik Watts & Kid Kash in Tier 2 with Red, Lynn, and the amusing New Jack & Shark Boy odd couple tag team in Tier 3. I would only watch TNA sporadically after early 2004, and went to one TNA house show at the ECW Arena in (I think) 2006, so 2003 was the peak of my TNA fandom.

Bryan and I also ordered one of those Australian WWA pay per views in (I think) early 2003. Joe E. Legend was the standout performer. It was the one with Nathan Jones vs. Jeff Jarrett and Sting/Luger. Remember my friend Bryan marking out for Jones' gut wrench suplex. I guess that old school move had become so rare by 2003 that it was the first time relative wrestling noob Bryan had seen it. 

I went to all these indie shows (approximately 40 from 2001-2006) alone. Most of my close friends were still WWE fans until late 2003, and Bryan was probably an even bigger fan of 2003 TNA than I was, but even the most hardcore fans in the group drew a line in the sand at indie wrestling. The one time I suggested we go to an indie show they were all like "Why ya wanna go all the way to Philly to watch that bingo hall bullshit?" so I never asked again. Nor did I tell them what I was doing on nights I went to wrestling shows. Anytime I went to an indie event I just "had things to do" that night. 

SPOILER: Click to show

My interest in indie wrestling started to wane in 2005 and pretty much ceased to exist in 2006 because real life had once again become more interesting than alternative wrestling.

Baker's Live Show Breakdown

17 ROH  (4 in 2002, 3 in 03, 5 in 04, 1 in 05, 1 in 06, 2 in 2014, 1 in 2020. 12 in Philly. 5 in the greater Baltimore area)
15 WWF (1 in 87, 1 in 95, 1 in 96, 2 in 98, 1 in 99, 3 in 00, 1 in 01, 2 in 02, 1 in 03, 1 in 04, 1 in 2014. 12 Baltimore. 2 Landover, MD. 1 Frederick, MD)
8 ECW + 1 Hardcore Homecoming (6 in 99, 2 in 2000, the first HH in 2005- All in Philly)
8? MCW (2 in 98, 1 in 03, 1 in 06, the rest in 99- Baltimore and surrounding areas)
8? ECWA (2 in 01, 1 in 03, the rest in 2002- Wilmington, DE)
2 PWF (Pottstown, PA- 2 in 2002)
2 JAPW (2004 in Elizabeth, NJ & 2005 in Philly)
2 CZW (2 in 2004- Philly)
2 Chikara (2003 in Allentown, PA & 2009 in Philly)
1 TNA (2006- Philly)
1 3PW (2004- Philly)
1 EWA (2004?- Baltimore- The single worst show I ever saw live. Laughably bad outlaw mudshow bullshit. Makes Uncensored '96 look not so bad)

1987- 1
1995- 1
1996- 1
1998- 4
1999- 11?
2000- 5
2001- 3
2002- 13?
2003- 7
2004- 11?
2005- 3
2006- 3
2009- 1
2014- 3
2020- 1

*68 live wrestling events. Plus I bought a conservative estimate of 1 tape/dvd at every non-WWF show I attended. So that's 53 tapes purchased. 

Jun 14, 2021 2:27:52 GMT bodyslam said:

Baker while we're on the topic of not pulling the trigger with Lex. What was the reason he did not go over at Starrcade 88? This is something I've always been curious about. Only answer I can come up with is there were already a plans for Steamboat.

Seems like a logical answer to me.

The only other answer I can give is Luger simply didn't want to be NWA Champion. I recently heard a few old school wrestlers say Luger straight up refused the championship at some point. It was definitely NWA/WCW rather than WWF, but I forget exactly when this allegedly took place. The story goes Luger was already making good money (I believe he was the first wrestler to have an agent) and just didn't want to deal with the additional workload and pressure of being the top guy. 

Baker, I am a huge Booker T fan. How over was Booker with the casual fan during his rise up the singles ranks in WCW?

Been watching all the Rumbles lately in order - got me to thinking. What is the weirdest years in WWF history (modern). I’m pretty sure it’s 93 or 94 because of that melding of the Hogan era guys and TNG. I forget that guys like Martel and Valentine were still around when the influx of talent was coming in.
What say you?

Jun 19, 2021 0:08:09 GMT UT said:

Been watching all the Rumbles lately in order - got me to thinking. What is the weirdest years in WWF history (modern). I’m pretty sure it’s 93 or 94 because of that melding of the Hogan era guys and TNG. I forget that guys like Martel and Valentine were still around when the influx of talent was coming in.
What say you?

2002 has to be up there. Brand split. Name change from WWF to WWE. Lots of stars from previous generations returning to mixed results. The next generation of stars debuted. Austin left and Rock went part time. The WWF/E Championship bounced around like a hot potato before settling on a rookie and then they invented a new World Championship out of thin air. Very weird year.

Ed Latter day WCW is one of my bigger blindspots. I've only seen like 2 matches with Booker T as WCW Champion but he was over as a babyface in those matches. I will say as an outsider who only half paid attention to WCW via the internet his initial championship win seemed to come out of nowhere. I was like "Booker T? Really? Well, at least it's a step up from David Arquette." 

What is your Punk/Austin, HBK/The Rock, Sting/Taker dream match that never got to be?