Been doing a lot of listening to this JR Grilling Podcast stuff on Youtube. I guess he just goes over events that happened in DIS BUSINESS from his perspective and how truthful (lol) it is from creative and management side. There's a ton on Austin walking out in 2002... the booking, burntout, the Brock situation, Confidential episode, etc.

It got me thinking about how much of a pass we gave Austin really in his whole career. The type of shit we would never give the likes of Cena and Reigns even half the leeway. Refusing to work with guys, very rarely if ever jobbing and then leaving when things aren't going your way. And ya know I fully get the "logic" Steve says behind not wanting to lose to Brock on TV with no build in a KOTR tournament setting. Though looking back at his career I'm not truly convinced, especially giving his mindset of falling further down the card, that even with build he would've been completely comfortable doing the job to a new guy like Brock. Had he not left and remained healthy I really can't see him doing the job to Brock at say 19 instead of the Rock. Hell, I don't even know if he woulda done that if not for the time off to clear his head.

I do find it somewhat hilarious that Austin was complaining about slumming it in the midcard with Hall at 18 and that is on creative. Austin was clearly burnt out and so were the fans. He refused the match with Hogan for fear of finally getting those boos (hey @boss!), so what did you expect? If you aren't gonna be challenging for the title (maybe he still expected that?) or doing the program with Hogan, you simply weren't gonna be in the marquee matches. Keep in mind this was before WWE started promoting Mania's as having 20 main events.

So yeah, let's talk about it.

Baker thoughts?

Even if they'd done late 2001 through early 2002 right and given us Austin/HHH as the title match co main event to Hogan/Rock at WM19, I'm not all that convinced things don't end up much the same still anyway.

It's a miracle we got what we got out of Austin when we did and for as long as we did considering his injuries. Then mentally, the failed heel run and Invasion must've been real mental screws to boot.

Guys like Austin should very rarely lose, and when they lose, they should lose in controversial fashion. That isn't 'selfish', it's common sense. In 2002 he was probably the third most over babyface after Hogan and HHH, but it is weird that they booked him below the main event for a lot of the year, even when Rock wasn't there. I think Vince knew Austin was coming to the end.

No issue with Austin looking after himself. Vince needs communication to stop him from making silly decisions. He had that back in those days. Austin would just say 'no'. Nothing wrong with that.

Austin freely admits he made a lot of mistakes during this period where he was running hard. It all began with the heel turn at Wrestlemania X-7 and it eventually took it's toll here. If Austin had have remained babyface then who knows how much longer things would have remained hot for. As it was, he turned heel, he gave it a red hot go but it just didn't work and the show lost it's direction and a ton of fans as a result.

I frequented message boards around this time, and the vast majority were tired of Austin and this only intensified after he assaulted Debra. It soured fans on Austin big time and it really took a long time for those wounds to heal. I'd dare say public perception didn't change until Tough Enough and I'd say that was largely down to a younger generation who didn't live through that era.

On paper, Austin was right to be upset to lose to Brock since it was silly creative. But at the same time, The Rock did a job to the Big Bossman 3 years prior and it didn't hurt him. Austin was feuding with Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit at the time, if anything it was the break his character needed and you could always come back strong with a rematch and have Austin be the first guy to beat Brock, leading to a big-time rematch. It probably would have done more for Brock than Rock dropping it on his way out to hollywood.

Rock/Brock is another one of those booking decisions I was never really into. The Rock had only just won the WWE Championship and everyone knew he was going to drop it right away. It honestly felt like it was gifted to Brock ala HHH on Raw at the same time which didn't make Brock feel like a deserving champion. In hindsight, either have him crash the Hulk Hogan reunion tour or have him end HHH's comeback tour. Even though he managed to beat Hogan and put him on the sidelines, it felt like the SummerSlam match buried the lead somewhat.

Jan 18, 2021 15:50:32 GMT Todd said:

Guys like Austin should very rarely lose, and when they lose, they should lose in controversial fashion. That isn't 'selfish', it's common sense. In 2002 he was probably the third most over babyface after Hogan and HHH, but it is weird that they booked him below the main event for a lot of the year, even when Rock wasn't there. I think Vince knew Austin was coming to the end.

No issue with Austin looking after himself. Vince needs communication to stop him from making silly decisions. He had that back in those days. Austin would just say 'no'. Nothing wrong with that.

This is correct. And especially a character like Austin. "The Toughest S.O.B.". Rock's character was more resilient to losses.

Jan 18, 2021 14:28:19 GMT @ness said:

It got me thinking about how much of a pass we gave Austin really in his whole career. The type of shit we would never give the likes of Cena and Reigns even half the leeway. Refusing to work with guys, very rarely if ever jobbing and then leaving when things aren't going your way. And ya know I fully get the "logic" Steve says behind not wanting to lose to Brock on TV with no build in a KOTR tournament setting. Though looking back at his career I'm not truly convinced, especially giving his mindset of falling further down the card, that even with build he would've been completely comfortable doing the job to a new guy like Brock. Had he not left and remained healthy I really can't see him doing the job to Brock at say 19 instead of the Rock. Hell, I don't even know if he woulda done that if not for the time off to clear his head.

In general, fans give wrestlers too much shit for protecting their character and refusing certain things.

I agree that Austin probably wouldn't have been happy jobbing to Brock due to his mindset. There was a lot of insecurity and bitterness in him. It felt like he knew he was coming to an end, that his body was breaking down and that due to his neck he was never going to get the run that he could've had. He wouldn't have been wanting to put over his replacement. Whereas Rock had already positioned himself to get out of wrestling while his body was still healthy. But that doesn't mean he was wrong to refuse to job to Brock on TV with no build.

And in general, I think he made the correct decisions for his character in terms of people to not work with. When Mero got powerbombed by Sable on TV, he was correct to not want to work with him. He was correct to not want to work with Jarrett when he was suggested.

If Hogan/Bret was ever actually the plan for SummerSlam 1993, Hogan was correct to not want to job to him.

Strobe touches on an interesting point.

Even by his official crowning in 1998 in the main event of WrestleMania, Austin and Vince had to know that Austin's shelf life was going to be limited due to injuries. So the WWF would've been smart to start trying to figure out Austin's successor, and got incredibly lucky that Rock took off like he did.

I'm sure Rock's success, and especially Rock's success from late 1999 to late 2000 as the uncontested face of the company, didn't do any favors for Austin's insecurities while Austin sat on the sidelines nursing career-ending injuries in the hopes of returning against the odds. But then Rock got so big and so hot so fast, and he smartly started cultivating his exit strategy. So by the time Austin was back to try reclaiming his throne, Rock was already one foot out the door. It left the WWF in this really weird position where there was no transcendent successor to take over from Rock and take Austin's torch. As big of a pop as a returning HHH and Hogan each got in early 2002, they weren't the answers as replacement faces. Long term, HHH would always work better as a heel... And Hogan wouldn't work long term.

To worsen the face void when Austin returned, I think things felt stale. Austin returns with the wet fart whodunnit of who ran over Stone Cold... which ends with Rikishi doing it for the Rock, J/K it was HHH all along. I think not having strong heels for Austin to return to feud with reminded fans of how dry the well was running when Austin left in late 1999. Back then even HHH felt like a stretch, and Austin was being pitched the likes of Billy Gunn and Double J.

So once the novelty wore off in late 2000, I think fans were as bored and uncertain as Austin himself. So in this way, I can totally get why he was open at all to experimenting with a heel turn to not only freshen his act up but also have a reason to wrestle fresh matchups against the likes of Benoit and Jericho, face-turned HHH and Kurt, the A.B.A. version of Taker and a red hot Kane, and eventually RVD. But the weirdness of the heel turn and Two Man Power Trip got hurt by holdover booking as fans and the WWF mostly waited to see what would happen with WCW. Then HHH blew his quad. Then the Invasion angle surely killed Austin's passion, even if he was still turning out some of his most inspired in-ring work.

By the end of 2001, I think Austin's role with the WWF had become too confused. Face, heel, face, heel, face... Tweener? But not in a good way like 1997? Then I think the birth of WHAT!? was his lasting calling card for this run as something that was fun enough to sing along to, seemed vaguely familiar to something we used to love, but was ultimately annoying and way overstayed it's welcome. It was hard not to look at Austin the same way rolling into 2002, feuding with the nWo as proxy Vince McMahons.

I do wonder what 2001 looks like with a face Austin, Invasion or not... Blown HHH quad or not. We lose the comedy gold of Austin and Kurt trying to outdo one another, and their great series of matches... But maybe the matches are just as good with the face/heel dynamics reversed? Maybe he chews up the Invaders save for RVD, whom maybe eventually gets the torch as the next Stone Cold for the newer high spot crazy generation (swapping Steveweisers for joints)?

I think you guys are selling Austin short. If his body and mind had held up I think he could have went on for years. Remember, the crowds NEVER turned on Stone Cold. Sure, a few internet geeks might have been growing tired of him, but there was never a time when he heard the boo birds as a babyface. The fans loved him even when he was poorly booked in 2002 and during that stupid Sherriff Austin stint when he was GM or whatever.

As for Austin's paranoia, I think a lot of that has to do with the era he came up in. He got the shaft in WCW when Hogan came in. Then he was there for all the Bret/Michaels drama. So while it was annoying to me as a late 90s internet geek who didn't care for Stone Cold to begin with, nowadays I can see where he was coming from.

Jan 19, 2021 3:53:11 GMT Baker said:

I think you guys are selling Austin short. If his body and mind had held up I think he could have went on for years. Remember, the crowds NEVER turned on Stone Cold. Sure, a few internet geeks might have been growing tired of him, but there was never a time when he heard the boo birds as a babyface. The fans loved him even when he was poorly booked in 2002 and during that stupid Sherriff Austin stint when he was GM or whatever.

As for Austin's paranoia, I think a lot of that has to do with the era he came up in. He got the shaft in WCW when Hogan came in. Then he was there for all the Bret/Michaels drama. So while it was annoying to me as a late 90s internet geek who didn't care for Stone Cold to begin with, nowadays I can see where he was coming from.

That's right, but fans were tuning out of the product based on the direction the company was going in. It was also difficult to write anything interesting for Austin considering he was coming off the Alliance angle which really just reflected poorly on him. The fans who continued to go still enjoyed the beer bash and the occassional Austin charm, but the bloom was off the rose.

In fact, you could feel it beginning to come off around Fully Loaded '99. Remember, Austin was keen to turn heel around this time because The Rock was already beginning to draw a larger reaction.

Jan 19, 2021 3:53:11 GMT Baker said:

I think you guys are selling Austin short. If his body and mind had held up I think he could have went on for years. Remember, the crowds NEVER turned on Stone Cold. Sure, a few internet geeks might have been growing tired of him, but there was never a time when he heard the boo birds as a babyface. The fans loved him even when he was poorly booked in 2002 and during that stupid Sherriff Austin stint when he was GM or whatever.

As for Austin's paranoia, I think a lot of that has to do with the era he came up in. He got the shaft in WCW when Hogan came in. Then he was there for all the Bret/Michaels drama. So while it was annoying to me as a late 90s internet geek who didn't care for Stone Cold to begin with, nowadays I can see where he was coming from.

We also have to keep in mind that Vince never wanted Austin to be the guy, it just got to the point where Vince could no longer resist it (and also his hand picked guy seriously injured his back). And then 7 months after Austin's coronation, Vince is clearly already grooming The Rock to be his successor. The same fucking calendar year! Then the next year he's grooming Triple H too! Austin had to feel underappreciated, and yes, paranoid for good reason. What else did he fucking have to do? Like he just became one of the biggest stars ever after Vince saw him as a midcard for life guy, and then Vince is looking for successors in consecutive years, years where Austin draws Hogan money. And now here's another one in Brock. And it's Brock in the most stupid way possible! Austin is surrounded by unappreciative morons, how could he not be paranoid? If anything, I think older and wiser Austin gives himself too much grief for making wrong decisions, his were almost always going to be better than the alternative.

It's also worth mentioning, judging how terrible Vince has run top guys in the years before and after Austin, it's not like Vince was miraculously better in the Austin years. Austin was probably vetoing dumb Vince shit all the time, it just wasn't the type of stuff that would become a public spat. I mean, we know he vetoed Jeff Jarrett and Billy Gunn, and he absolutely should have done that. I trust Austin's instincts over Vince every day of the week. Vince has done nothing since to make me think I'm wrong.

Jan 19, 2021 10:25:16 GMT Kilgore said:

Jan 19, 2021 3:53:11 GMT Baker said:

I think you guys are selling Austin short. If his body and mind had held up I think he could have went on for years. Remember, the crowds NEVER turned on Stone Cold. Sure, a few internet geeks might have been growing tired of him, but there was never a time when he heard the boo birds as a babyface. The fans loved him even when he was poorly booked in 2002 and during that stupid Sherriff Austin stint when he was GM or whatever.

As for Austin's paranoia, I think a lot of that has to do with the era he came up in. He got the shaft in WCW when Hogan came in. Then he was there for all the Bret/Michaels drama. So while it was annoying to me as a late 90s internet geek who didn't care for Stone Cold to begin with, nowadays I can see where he was coming from.

We also have to keep in mind that Vince never wanted Austin to be the guy, it just got to the point where Vince could no longer resist it (and also his hand picked guy seriously injured his back). And then 7 months after Austin's coronation, Vince is clearly already grooming The Rock to be his successor. The same fucking calendar year! Then the next year he's grooming Triple H too! Austin had to feel underappreciated, and yes, paranoid for good reason. What else did he fucking have to do? Like he just became one of the biggest stars ever after Vince saw him as a midcard for life guy, and then Vince is looking for successors in consecutive years, years where Austin draws Hogan money. And now here's another one in Brock. And it's Brock in the most stupid way possible! Austin is surrounded by unappreciative morons, how could he not be paranoid? If anything, I think older and wiser Austin gives himself too much grief for making wrong decisions, his were almost always going to be better than the alternative.

It's also worth mentioning, judging how terrible Vince has run top guys in the years before and after Austin, it's not like Vince was miraculously better in the Austin years. Austin was probably vetoing dumb Vince shit all the time, it just wasn't the type of stuff that would become a public spat. I mean, we know he vetoed Jeff Jarrett and Billy Gunn, and he absolutely should have done that. I trust Austin's instincts over Vince every day of the week. Vince has done nothing since to make me think I'm wrong.

Kilgore, as PW's Official Master of Ceremonies for 3:16 Month, you've always seemed to me to have the best pulse on all things Stone Cold. Then, given your rebooking brilliance with some of your WCW ideas, I'd be curious to see your mind put to work on how to book Austin from re-winning the title from Rock at WrestleMania XV through wrestling his last match at WrestleMania XIX (whether it's still against Rock or not is your call).

I'm assuming Austin will still need to drop the belt at some point between summer and fall of 1999 for injuries and surgeries, and then miss most of 2000 while healing. But I'd be curious to see how you handle the vehicular manslaughter mystery (if you even go there), his return, his 2001, and even moreso his 2002 if you can keep him engaged enough not to leave.

Man makes the paranoid 2001 run art imitating life.

Still find it hilarious we forgave the woman beating. Sorta like Michael Jackson. The first few kids were freebies...

While we wait for Kilgore to hopefully pick up the gauntlet, here's a stab more focused on 2001 onwards starting with WrestleMan X-Seve...

- Stone Cold defeats Rock to regain the WWF title. Only instead, Vince sells being killed by Shane, and in the end it's a surprise run-in by Houston homeboy WCW Champion Booker T that ultimately is the death knell for Rock. WCW champ blasts the bloodied WWF champ in the face with the Big Gold Belt, does a spin-a-rooni right into a Stone Cold Stunner, and Austin collapses on Rock for the win.

- Next night on RAW, we get the cage match rematch with Rock to prevent outside interference... Only for HHH to come out, use his sledgehammer to break into the cage, and murder Rock and Austin to establish himself as the de facto number one contender. HHH reminds Austin he beat him in Three Stages of Hell and always has Austin's number while Austin temporarily has HHH's belt. Insert Taker, who says he's ahead of HHH in line since he just made The Game famous at WrestleMania. Austin ain't afraid of nobody, tells both sumbitches to bring it, so we get a triple threat at Backlash 2001 with Austin defending against HHH and Taker.

- Meanwhile, Shane boasts about not only defeating his dad at WrestleMania, and WCW's bright future, but also how his champion Booker pulled Rock's punk card and how Stone Cold wouldn't be WWF Champion if not for Booker's interference. To shut Shane up, a vengeful Vince books his son against Kane in a hardcore title match at Backlash 2001. When asked for comment about Shane's claims, Austin doesn't even acknowledge WCW or Booker T. Austin just says as far as he's concerned there's only one world title, it's the one on his shoulder, and the one he went through hell and high water to get back to.

- In the triple threat at Backlash, Austin pins Taker after a surprise run-in by DDP ends with a Diamond Cutter on the Deadman. Austin pins Taker just before HHH can get back in the ring to break the count.

- HHH says yet again Austin failed to beat him, and it's well past time for them to end things. Austin agrees, so we're set for a title match inside Hell in a Cell at Judgment Day. Austin retains in a match that's hopefully epic enough to warrant us foregoing the RAW tag the next night in this universe. Let's even say the quad tear happens here because of the intensity of the war. Why not? Austin finally gets his decisive win over HHH, and HHH is sidelined with serious injury.

- DDP just wants Taker to make him famous in the WWF, Booker just wants respect as world champion, and Shane just wants the most press possible for the impending return of his WCW. These are all themes being featured as we head into King of the Ring.

- Having finally emerged victorious from his feud with Benoit, Kurt wants a shot at reclaiming his world title since he never got a rematch after losing to Rock. Since we're running out of heels, we go with Austin/Kurt at KOTR and hope the face heel dynamic reversal works out. It ends in DQ when Booker T interferes and puts Austin through the announce table with a Book End. Now can you dig that, sucks!? Meanwhile, we'll defer the Kurt/Shane street fight to Fully Loaded 2001.

- Fully Loaded 2001 or Invasion or Vengeance or whatever we want to call it features Kurt vs. Shane in their deferred KOTR street fight, Taker vs. DDP in an actually competitive match, and champ vs. champ Austin vs. Booker T among other matches. Kurt wins for the WWF loyalists to feel good. DDP pins Taker after countering a chokeslam into a diamond cutter outta nowhere. Austin/Booker ends in a no contest after the WCW and then WWF locker rooms empty out for a chaotic Brawl.

- SummerSlam sees a returning Rock defeat Booker for the WCW title in the main event, while Austin retains the WWF title against DDP in a Stone Cold Stunner vs. Diamond Cutter battle between former travel buddies. If we didn't run Kurt/Shane in July for any reason, do it here. Otherwise, maybe Kurt wins or defends the U.S. Title here? And Taker gets some momentum back by tagging with Kane to squash the Natural Born Thrillers for the WCW Tag Titles.

- Unforgiven sees Austin get his conclusive win over Kurt, then No Mercy can still be that underrated triple threat with RVD... Why not? Survivor Series sees Austin & Rock co-captain Team WWF with Taker, Kane, and Kurt against Team WCW of Shane, Jericho, Booker, DDP, and Big Show. Then at Vengeance or Armageddon or whatever we go with the mini tournament to unify the titles. We go with Kurt instead of Jericho as the swerve winner, perhaps thanks to assists from his new manager slash forever crush Stephanie McMahon? Perhaps just on his own merits.

- Kurt retains against RVD at Royal Rumble, while Rock and Jericho become part of the most star-loaded Rumble ever. In the end, a returning HHH wins after last eliminating Austin. For the second year in a row, Kurt is screwed out of going into WrestleMania as world champ because at No Way Out we get the final Austin/Angle chapter. In a nod to Austin's clashes with Bret, it's a submission match. Austin wins the undisputed title when Kurt passes out from blood loss.

- The incoming nWo harasses icons Rock and Austin and works on recruiting Kliq buddy HHH, who's set to clash with old rival Austin yet again. We get an epic six man on RAW pitting champ Austin, challenger HHH, and Rock against the nWo as part of the buildup to Rock/Hogan and Austin/HHH. Hall and Nash are kept off the card and relegated to cornerman status. Except Hogan asks them at the last minute not to come to ringside. This all feeds into the Outsiders turning on Hogan and then later coming out to help HHH defeat Austin for the title.

- The wake of WrestleMania X8 sees the dawn of the brand split era. As undisputed champ, HHH roams both shows. As first pick and former world champ, Stone Cold is drafted to RAW. As the guy who just beat Hogan, Rock is drafted second as SmackDown's #1. On RAW, we rinse and repeat the formula that always worked best for him... Him chasing the title, on the ceaseless hunt despite odds being stacked against him. HHH denies being in cahoots with the Outsiders, and even convinces Austin to go against his DTA principles to tag together against Hall & Nash... Only for HHH to turn on THE Austin.

- April through June become Austin chasing HHH and mowing through the Kliq World Order to get back to the title. When the Plane Ride from Hell and blown quad eventually cost us Hall, Waltman, and Nash... Insert a returning HBK. Build to Austin overcoming the odds to finally get his one-on-one title rematch against HHH at KOTR 2002. Make it Title vs. Career to really raise the stakes... And have HHH retain after KOTR winner Brock Lesnar interferes and F5s Austin to cost Stone Cold Stone Cold's career.

- Austin gets time off to rest and recharge and sell his career being over. Meanwhile, a returning Rock helps transition the Undisputed Championship from HHH to Brock. Brock reigns as he does from SummerSlam to WrestleMania XIX. Booker T wins the 2003 Royal Rumble to set him up to challenge HHH for the WHC at WMXIX, so Brock needs an opponent. Hollywood Rock gives us our dream match against HBK. Vince and Hogan still work their magic. And here comes the returning Rattlesnake to give us one last John Wayne hurrah against Lesnar at WrestleMania XIX.

If you like a person enough you can forgive or ignore issues they had in the past.

And more people today may should take that attitude because since that period when someone is gone there doesn't feel like a major lose. Two people that come to mind off the top of my head as being too nice with losing is Lashley and Bray.

Jan 19, 2021 16:08:23 GMT X-zero said:

If you like a person enough you can forgive or ignore issues they had in the past.

And more people today may should take that attitude because since that period when someone is gone there doesn't feel like a major lose. Two people that come to mind off the top of my head as being too nice with losing is Lashley and Bray.

And this is one of the biggest reasons why WWE haven’t created a next level top star in so long. So many guys have debuted and gotten very over, but they lose the big match very quickly or enter into 50/50 booking and people just stop caring. Bray, Owens, Ambrose, Braun - they all got very over and then lost and then lost and then won and then lost - so why would you stay invested. Of course, Austin was able to do this because if Vince said no he could just go to WCW and earn a fortune - so you can understand why it’s more difficult for modern guys to take that stand. Hopefully AEW helps with that.

Very similar memories to Big Pete, I remember a lot of dislike towards Austin in 2002 on message boards - whether it was the oversaturating of 'Austin 3:16', whether Rocky had taken the mantle as the top guy in a lot of people's mind, despite coming and going during 2000/01 and 02. Something certainly changed during this period. I also think, a lot of the mid-card acts were becoming a lot more fleshed out throughout 2002 and certainly by 2003 - a lot less Sexual Chocolates and Pukes, and starting to see a lot more depth in character development. Kane was also an emerging force in 2002, Undertaker was adding depth to his character as Big Evil, Triple H was entering into his reign of terror era and of course, the addition of a broader range of talent/styles in 2001 with the purchase of WCW/ECW. 

Personally I, and a number of people I knew, just grew tired of the character. A one-dimensional rabid redneck who's only thought process is to get offended by something and open up a can of whoop ass - fantastic during the attitude era when it's fresh, but 4 years later, it's wearing thin man. Especially when a lot of it is built around Austin standing there, looking pissed and snapping "What?!" at an opponent. 

Then on Baker,'s point about the fans never turning on him - his run at the top was less than 4 years, as compared the decade plus WWF and even WCW were consumed by Hogan, and later by Cena. I doubt there was time to turn on Austin. 

Wikipedia also suggest problems with Triple H & The Rock also during that period, that were cleared up upon his return to the company. You could guess, most likely due to his apparent displeasure of working with Hall at 'mania and Rocky taking the Hogan match. Austin was/is a friend of Bret Hart, and it's very evident how bitter Old Man Hart is towards the Kliq and how bitter Austin was about his time in WCW. 

But... I never understood why booking Austin v Brock on Raw with no build was a good idea. I can understand the frustration on Austin's behalf, but I believe we've been lead to believe this was the catalyst for Austin walking.. this was the FU from Vince I would suggest during what was a difficult period working with Austin.

You'd book the semi-finals to KOTR on Raw, Austin goes over Jericho in the main event in a rematch from Vengeance 2001 ( another sell ) Brock marauders through RVD that same night. The following week, they build the match with a hype-promo from Heyman to open the show, after Brock of course murders a mid-carder or two. Then the classic " Austin arrives at the arena " shtick later in the night. Austin rolls up in a pick up truck, drunk, pissed off and storms through the back of house into the arena, and then delivers a vicious Austin promo. Then the eventual confrontation to close the show with Brock shaking off Austin's attack and no-selling a stunner as the locker-room holds the finalists apart. 

IMO NATH45 raises a good point about how one-dimensional Austin's character had started to feel. In that sense, I can totally understand why from an artistic point of view he wanted to dabble with the heel turn.

We got glimpses of how good it could've been had it been consistent and had the booking aligned with it when he was a paranoid psychopath. That spin on the character really wasn't outside the wheelhouse of who Stone Cold had been in the past.

Even begrudgingly having to rely on others, even if he didn't actually trust them. For as much as the Two Man Power Trip got shat on because of the war Austin and HHH had just recently been through, just slightly better presentation makes it work IMO. Keep my friends close and my enemies closer... The enemy of my enemy is my friend... if you can't beat 'em, join em... Those kind of themes, which in pro wrestling just need to be presented a little more obviously than other entertainment mediums. Then using a passed-over bitter HHH as his lesser heater, so build that resentment and lead to an eventual HHH face turn and rebellion against Austin. So curious how Austin's heel turn goes and ends up being perceived had HHH not blown his quad. I presume SummerSlam 2001's main event was intended to be Two Man Power Trip implodes?

Anyway... I think the problems with the Austin heel character were the fawning for McMahon's affection, despite how gold and good fun those comedy bits were with Kurt. And again, these problems really started to rear their heads more after HHH blows his quad. So I wonder if there was more of an envisioned plan when Austin originally agreed to try going heel, then HHH blew his quad, and all plans went out the window. Considering how there seemed to similarly be no real planning behind the Invasion angle, part of me really thinks the WWF was just saying fuck it by Summer 2002 and resting on their laurels of being the only major promotion left in business.

Whether or not Austin is turning heel, looking at 2001, there was such a lack of main event heels. You had Kurt, and... That's it? Even HHH was already on a face turn trajectory prior to the Two Man Power Trip stuff given his love triangle deal, impressive in-ring performances against Austin and Taker at No Way Out and WrestleMan X-Seve, and just overall badassery as reflected in his leather jacket denim vest combo. So, Austin stays face and realistically feuds with... Who? The talent coming in from WCW and ECW weren't on Austin's level. So... No one? We're just fucked?

If you go back and watch the RAWs and Smackdown from prior to the invasion, Austin must have worked Benoit and Jericho a hundred times, there's obviously very limited main event talent and to a different point, how important Triple H was to the company at this point.

Sometimes a great heel needs a great baby face and visa versa, and he clearly didn't have one at a main event level during this period.

I'm not sure what Taker is doing at this point outside of my memories of him brooding and chewing tobacco?

Not entirely helpful here, but just thinking how cool shit could've been had Vince foregone all the other WCW talent and worked a deal with Goldberg...

Could've seen something like:

WM17: Austin vs. Rock
Austin wins the title after avoiding a spear from a debuting Goldberg, who breaks Rock in half instead. Austin stuns Goldberg outta the ring, then stuns a recovering Rock for the win.

WM18: Austin vs. Goldberg
WWF Champ Austin beats WCW Champ Goldberg to unify the titles into an undisputed championship in the only match that can main event over Rock/Hogan.

WM19: Austin vs. Lesnar
A returning Austin challenges Undisputed Champ Lesnar in a title vs. career match, going out on his back to put the Next Big Thing over.

WM20: Lesnar vs. Goldberg; Austin as ref
Match ends in a no contest after Austin gets bored enough to say fuck it, stuns both guys, throws a beer bash, then leaves.

Jan 20, 2021 22:30:43 GMT 🤯 said:

Not entirely helpful here, but just thinking how cool shit could've been had Vince foregone all the other WCW talent and worked a deal with Goldberg...

Could've seen something like:

WM17: Austin vs. Rock
Austin wins the title after avoiding a spear from a debuting Goldberg, who breaks Rock in half instead. Austin stuns Goldberg outta the ring, then stuns a recovering Rock for the win.

WM18: Austin vs. Goldberg
WWF Champ Austin beats WCW Champ Goldberg to unify the titles into an undisputed championship in the only match that can main event over Rock/Hogan.

WM19: Austin vs. Lesnar
A returning Austin challenges Undisputed Champ Lesnar in a title vs. career match, going out on his back to put the Next Big Thing over.

WM20: Lesnar vs. Goldberg; Austin as ref
Match ends in a no contest after Austin gets bored enough to say fuck it, stuns both guys, throws a beer bash, then leaves.

Hot. Go on.

Do a Lesnar rewrite next. Or do you think it's already perfect?

Jan 20, 2021 22:33:48 GMT @ness said:

Jan 20, 2021 22:30:43 GMT 🤯 said:

Not entirely helpful here, but just thinking how cool shit could've been had Vince foregone all the other WCW talent and worked a deal with Goldberg...

Could've seen something like:

WM17: Austin vs. Rock
Austin wins the title after avoiding a spear from a debuting Goldberg, who breaks Rock in half instead. Austin stuns Goldberg outta the ring, then stuns a recovering Rock for the win.

WM18: Austin vs. Goldberg
WWF Champ Austin beats WCW Champ Goldberg to unify the titles into an undisputed championship in the only match that can main event over Rock/Hogan.

WM19: Austin vs. Lesnar
A returning Austin challenges Undisputed Champ Lesnar in a title vs. career match, going out on his back to put the Next Big Thing over.

WM20: Lesnar vs. Goldberg; Austin as ref
Match ends in a no contest after Austin gets bored enough to say fuck it, stuns both guys, throws a beer bash, then leaves.

Hot. Go on.

Do a Lesnar rewrite next. Or do you think it's already perfect?

Lesnar is easy. Squash everyone in his path one by one. Then squash everybody at once in the 2003 Royal Rumble. Then retire Austin. Then go part time, returning only to squash new talent as they're signed, born, etc.

Jan 20, 2021 22:42:06 GMT 🤯 said:

Jan 20, 2021 22:33:48 GMT @ness said:

Hot. Go on.

Do a Lesnar rewrite next. Or do you think it's already perfect?

Lesnar is easy. Squash everyone in his path one by one. Then squash everybody at once in the 2003 Royal Rumble. Then retire Austin. Then go part time, returning only to squash new talent as they're signed, born, etc.

So basically his career with the one checkmark that eludes him (beating Austin).

I do like the idea of every time an NXT jobber gets called up to the BIG TYYYYYYYYYYYYYYME... Brock is summoned to remind them who's ring it is.